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Car Forum / Honda Cars / April 2009Electric Spark noise from under dash when turning ignition key
2004 Accord 2 door EX-L. Is it normal that I hear some heavy electric sparking from some relay under the dashboard when I turn the ignition key slower than normal? I took it to the dealership today and they told me (without hearing, just based on description) that that is normal and all hondas do that. If this is normal - does it cause premature relay contacts wear out from all this sparking? > 2004 Accord 2 door EX-L. > > Is it normal that I hear some heavy electric sparking from some relay > under the dashboard when I turn the ignition key slower than normal? Do you hear the "sparking" at the very same time as the Check Engine light comes on and goes off?  SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >> 2004 Accord 2 door EX-L. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Do you hear the "sparking" at the very same time as the Check Engine light > comes on and goes off? No, "check engine" light stays solid on when sparking can be heard. It seems to me that this is not fully engaged starter relay. When I am moving the key slowly to the start position first I hear one subtle relay click which blanks off the radio panel, when I do continue slowly turning the key I hear second subtle relay click which turns off the blower motor and then, when I continue to turn the key slowly I hear the fountain of electric sparks sounds and then the starter engages and the motor starts with no problem. Is there a starter motor relay under my dash on the left side of the steering column? Is it possible that this is what I hear? >>> 2004 Accord 2 door EX-L. >>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Is there a starter motor relay under my dash on the left side of > the steering column? Is it possible that this is what I hear? Your Main Relay/s is/are in fact in that location. I think you may be turning the key TOO slowly, causing the relay to buzz. The ignition switch is not meant to be between positions for extended lengths of time except during troubleshooting. You are meant to turn the switch to each position fairly quickly. What happens if you 1) turn the key quickly to "I", then wait a bit, then 2) turn it quickly to "II", waiting AT LEAST TWO SECONDS, then 3) turn it quickly to "III" until the engine starts? Any "sparking" noise now? Or just heavy clicks as the Check Engine light comes on and goes off? SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > Your Main Relay/s is/are in fact in that location. > > I think you may be turning the key TOO slowly, causing the relay to buzz. Why is it buzzing instead of staying on in place? It looks to me that too much current is flowing through the ignition contacts! Too much current causes sparks and arcing intermittent/nonexistent current flow through the starter relay, which controls much bigger current and now much more audible buzzing sound. This arcing over time would cause relays to burn... > The ignition switch is not meant to be between positions for extended > lengths of time except during troubleshooting. You are meant to turn the > switch to each position fairly quickly. Hm... I just checked - no matter how slow I try to turn the ignition key in my other car (toyota camry) I am UNABLE to cause any buzzing noise or sparks... At some moment the starter engages and I cannot do anything about it other than just release the pressure on the key and disengage the starter or just keep pressing the ignition key and continue starting. Something is definitelly worse in the honda design if they rely on the driver speed of turning this key to prevent relay arcing... Is honda known for more problems with relays than toyota? > What happens if you > 1) turn the key quickly to "I", then wait a bit, then [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Any "sparking" noise now? > Or just heavy clicks as the Check Engine light comes on and goes off? No noticable arcing when I turn ignition key into the position III *quickly*. Just starter engages and the engine starts. Just because I am not noticing it does not mean it does not happen. The arcing, if it is noticable when turning the key slowly it will be there when turning key quickly, only will last shorter (i.e 50-100ms instead of 500ms). Even short arcing times the number of engine starts = premature failure... >> Your Main Relay/s is/are in fact in that location. >> >> I think you may be turning the key TOO slowly, causing the relay to >> buzz. > > Why is it buzzing instead of staying on in place? Because you're forcing the relay's contacts to just barely make contact for too long. It's possible to do this with ANY relay if you do things "just so". > It looks to me that too much current is flowing through the ignition > contacts! No, you're simply turning the key too slowly. Why are you doing this? Are you /trying/ to find trouble where there is none? > Too much current causes sparks and arcing intermittent/nonexistent > current flow through the starter relay, which controls much bigger > current and now much more audible buzzing sound. > > This arcing over time would cause relays to burn... Well sure, if you insist on being silly about it. In normal use most drivers simply twist the ignition switch right around from "0" to "III" without any pauses at all. (That in itself is bad, but for different reasons.) >> The ignition switch is not meant to be between positions for extended >> lengths of time except during troubleshooting. You are meant to turn [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > my other car (toyota camry) I am UNABLE to cause any buzzing noise or > sparks... Different setup. Toyota only engages the fuel pump once the engine is turning, so no current will flow until the engine cranks. > At some moment the starter engages and I cannot do anything > about it other than just release the pressure on the key and disengage > the starter or just keep pressing the ignition key and continue > starting. Of course. At some point you will complete the circuit to the starter solenoid and the starter will engage. You must /really/ be trying to find problems where none exist. > Something is definitelly worse in the honda design if they rely on > the driver speed of turning this key to prevent relay arcing... You'd think, except that this does not translate into the real world. Nobody other than people trying to find non-existent problems do what you do. > Is honda known for more problems with relays than toyota? In the days when Honda combined two relays into one, yes. But that was due to the sheer mass of that combination, which mass caused the famous Honda PGM-FI Main Relay problems for so many years. That problem and its solution remains one of the most popular pages on my site. But since ~2005, Honda has split the Main Relay into two parts like everybody else, so the old problems are probably gone for good. >> What happens if you >> 1) turn the key quickly to "I", then wait a bit, then [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > *quickly*. > Just starter engages and the engine starts. Then everything's just dandy. Maybe you should stop trying to find problems where they don't exist. Do you want to maintain a good relationship with your dealer, or do you want to make them hide under their desks when they see you coming? > Just because I am not noticing it does not mean it does not happen. > The arcing, if it is noticable when turning the key slowly it will be [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > failure... > It doesn't work that way, sorry. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>> Your Main Relay/s is/are in fact in that location. >>> [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > Different setup. Toyota only engages the fuel pump once the engine is > turning, so no current will flow until the engine cranks. Well, not sure if this is the fuel pump problem... it does not consume so much current as the starter motor does. I suspect this to be the 'starter cut relay' which is buzzing in my car. In the car service manual, on page 4-5, there is a wiring diagram which surprises me - there is the ignition switch pictured there, which is powering the starter cut relay coil AND at the same moment also the starter solenoid, consuming a lot of current used to move the starter switch into the ON position. When I compare the same part of the wiring diagram in my toyota camry I see there totally different picture... from the electrical point of view, of course. In toyota, the starter relay coil only is powered from the ignition switch. The starter relay contacts, the ones providing power to the actual starter solenoid, are powered straight from battery and the current flowing through the starter solenoid is NOT flowing through the ignition switch in toyota. >> At some moment the starter engages and I cannot do anything >> about it other than just release the pressure on the key and disengage [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > solenoid and the starter will engage. You must /really/ be trying to > find problems where none exist. I am not sure if you read this carefully - I am UNABLE to repeat the same in toyota. The key at some point makes the contact and this is it: no buzzing, no arcing - the starter is engaged and it is turning. But it does not happen with honda - at some angle of the turned key the starter relay is just buzzing, not making the contact... The weak ignition switch is strugling to close the circuit of the starter relay coil AND at the same point RELAY'S OWN POWER CONTACTS! This should not happen! I wonder how this wiring diagram looks like in the newer models. Tegger, do you have any newer Accord service manual? 2008 maybe? Would you mind scanning this one manual page for me, please? >> Something is definitelly worse in the honda design if they rely on >> the driver speed of turning this key to prevent relay arcing... > > You'd think, except that this does not translate into the real world. > Nobody other than people trying to find non-existent problems do what > you do. If the problem was non existent than I could not find it... I would not find it with my toyota - because there is no problem there. >> Is honda known for more problems with relays than toyota? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > But since ~2005, Honda has split the Main Relay into two parts like > everybody else, so the old problems are probably gone for good. My car is registered April 2004. It must have been made earlier than that... >>> What happens if you >>> 1) turn the key quickly to "I", then wait a bit, then [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Then everything's just dandy. :-)) I wish it was just dandy. It would be dandy if I could not hear this arcing... > Maybe you should stop trying to find problems where they don't exist. Do > you want to maintain a good relationship with your dealer, or do you > want to make them hide under their desks when they see you coming? Well, my "relationship" with the dealer is not really my big concern :) >> Just because I am not noticing it does not mean it does not happen. >> The arcing, if it is noticable when turning the key slowly it will be [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > It doesn't work that way, sorry. :-)) and yet honda has the famous relay problems but toyota does not... What a concidinky ;-) > In the car service manual, on page 4-5, there is a wiring diagram > which surprises me - there is the ignition switch pictured there, which [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > and the current flowing through the starter solenoid is NOT flowing > through the ignition switch in toyota. Here is the illustration, may be a helpful aid to the text above: http://www.flickr.com/photos/37558759@N06/sets/72157617280874226/ I am still interested if this part of the wiring diagram changed in 2008. >> In the car service manual, on page 4-5, there is a wiring diagram >> which surprises me - there is the ignition switch pictured there, which [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > I am still interested if this part of the wiring diagram changed in 2008. Similar circuit in an old generation toyota camry (pages ST-3, ST-24): http://www.turboninjas.com/camry/st.pdf > I am not sure if you read this carefully - I am UNABLE to repeat > the same in toyota. The key at some point makes the contact [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > coil AND at the same point RELAY'S OWN POWER CONTACTS! > This should not happen! If you're so concerned, why don't you just sell this car and buy another Toyota? There are no TSBs or other known issues with your model's ignition system, so whatever you're seeing isn't the problem you think it is. Maybe that's why the dealership told you nothing was wrong. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >> I am not sure if you read this carefully - I am UNABLE to repeat >> the same in toyota. The key at some point makes the contact [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > If you're so concerned, why don't you just sell this car and buy another > Toyota? Well, my 2-door accord looks more pretty than toyota ;-) > There are no TSBs or other known issues with your model's ignition system, > so whatever you're seeing isn't the problem you think it is. Maybe that's > why the dealership told you nothing was wrong. The mechanic should not tell me nothing is wrong without seeing the car and hearing the noise himself. That was in my opinion not very professional. <snip for clarity> > The mechanic should not tell me nothing is wrong without seeing the car > and hearing the noise himself. That was in my opinion not very > professional. ygtbfsm. in our next segment, "professional" psychic vehicle diagnostics!!! more news at 11. > 2004 Accord 2 door EX-L. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > If this is normal - does it cause premature relay contacts wear out from all > this sparking? Pszemol, Here is what Honda has to say about the subject: From Honda ServiceNews October 2001 Starter Relay Buzzes If you turn the ignition switch very slowly to start the engine, all Honda models except Passport have this little quirk: the starter relay buzzes. If your customer complains about it, dont spend your time trying to fix it; theres really nothing wrong. Just tell your customer to turn the ignition switch a little faster, and the relay wont buzz. -- Tp, -------- __o ----- -\<. -------- __o --- ( )/ ( ) ---- -\<. -------------------- ( )/ ( ) ----------------------------------------- No Lawsuit Ever Fixed A Moron... >> 2004 Accord 2 door EX-L. >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > wrong. Just tell your customer to turn the ignition > switch a little faster, and the relay won’t buzz. Now why didn't I look that one up myself? I have that issue, too. I wonder if the Chev Cavalier and Pontiac Sunfire do this also? They have a similar "pump run" period at KOEO. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >> 2004 Accord 2 door EX-L. >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > wrong. Just tell your customer to turn the ignition > switch a little faster, and the relay won't buzz. Interesting, thank you... So it is starter relay, not the fuel pump relay, Tegger? Have I misunderstood you were mentioning something about different fuel pump wiring in toyota? Please explain... >>> 2004 Accord 2 door EX-L. >>> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Have I misunderstood you were mentioning something > about different fuel pump wiring in toyota? Please explain... give it up dipshit. the only problem with your vehicle is the loose screw behind the steering wheel. >> Interesting, thank you... >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > give it up dipshit. the only problem with your vehicle > is the loose screw behind the steering wheel. Don't be such a cave man, jim... where are you manners? > So it is starter relay, not the fuel pump relay, Tegger? The fuel pump relay. > Have I misunderstood you were mentioning something > about different fuel pump wiring in toyota? Please explain... The Toyota setup passes no current to the fuel pump until the engine is turning (when key is turned to "start"). The Honda setup passes current to the fuel pump for two seconds when the key is first turned to "II" (BEFORE the key is turned to "start"). If no current is passed, no relay activity is possible. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >> So it is starter relay, not the fuel pump relay, Tegger? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the fuel pump for two seconds when the key is first turned to "II" (BEFORE > the key is turned to "start"). and the honda way is the /right/ way. > If no current is passed, no relay activity is possible. >> So it is starter relay, not the fuel pump relay, Tegger? > > The fuel pump relay. As you probably noticed, I was refering to the text written by honda titled "Starter Relay Buzzes". Is honda wrong claiming it is starter relay? >> Have I misunderstood you were mentioning something >> about different fuel pump wiring in toyota? Please explain... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the fuel pump for two seconds when the key is first turned to "II" (BEFORE > the key is turned to "start"). I understand the statement you make about the differences between the honda and toyota designs in respect to powering fuel pump. What I have found comparing STARTER wiring diagrams between these two cars has nothing to do with the fuel pump. Honda service buileting also references STARTER relay, not fuel pump relay... Yet you still are talking about the fuel pump relay... why is that? > If no current is passed, no relay activity is possible. This statement is of course true, but which relay are we talking about? If the relay is energized already in the ON position (II) than it cannot be buzzing any way when I am turning the key from II to III position. Is the state of the fuel pump relay changing when I turn the key from II to III or does it stay energized? >>> So it is starter relay, not the fuel pump relay, Tegger? >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > buileting also references STARTER relay, not fuel pump relay... > Yet you still are talking about the fuel pump relay... why is that? Because I'm wrong. The HSN article clearly states it's the starter relay, not the fuel pump relay. I somehow missed that on the first read. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
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