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Car Forum / Honda Cars / December 2007Hybrid Fuel Cost Comparison
You might enjoy a little converter at www.fast-math.org/motorfuelcost.htm in which you can enter the approximate miles you drive per year, the mileage your current car gets, and what another vehicle you're considering will get, and then see how much money you'll save per year. Take care! - Jeff > You might enjoy a little converter at > www.fast-math.org/motorfuelcost.htm in which you can enter the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Take care! > - Jeff It would be more meaningful if one could put in their percentage of highway and city type driving into the calculation and the respective mileages for both vehicles. As an example, I usually drive 10K miles per year, with about 70% highway. My current vehicle (2004 EXL V6) gets 22 mpg city, 30 mpg highway, while hybrids get lower mileage highway then they do city driving conditions. > As an example, I usually drive 10K miles per year, with about 70% highway. > My current vehicle (2004 EXL V6) gets 22 mpg city, 30 mpg highway, while > hybrids get lower mileage highway then they do city driving conditions. That's not my experiences. My Prius gets 52 to 60 mpg on highway driving, year around. Don't believe Toyota's listed ratings. In town it's stop and go, ad nauseam. I get about 43 mpg in the summer and 38 mpg in the winter. I don't jump start at intersections, but I don't hold up traffic by creeping out either. I don't know how they are able to get away saying 60 in the city unless it's all beltline driving. Most towns don't have beltlines. (Besides, they are highways) Believe Consumers Reports when they say it's 46 mpg all around average. Like most people, I drive short trips in town and not much highway travel. I heard the EPA is finally waking up and changing their method to calculate city driving. Up to now they cater to big business and not the consumer. All in all. I love my Prius. I drive about 12k miles per year. No matter how much Toyota and other companies lie, I still get two to three times the mileage I've ever got on any compact car. Mr Ed http://www.ed-camin.com http://home.earthlink.net/~bcamin/betty.htm http://www.mountairykiwanis.org http://www.ma-artleague.org http://home.earthlink.net/~j3dogs/index.htm > That's not my experiences. My Prius gets 52 to 60 mpg on highway driving, > year around. Bullshit. On Nov 25, 10:34 am, "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <el...@nastydesigns.com> wrote: > In article <13kj47pregdr...@corp.supernews.com>, > > > That's not my experiences. My Prius gets 52 to 60 mpg on highway driving, > > year around. > > Bullshit. perhaps its highway driving downhill In article <f64b89e9-6098-4655-9ec0-133500d41ee1@b15g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, > > > That's not my experiences. My Prius gets 52 to 60 mpg on highway driving, > > > year around. > > > > Bullshit. > > perhaps its highway driving downhill Or else he drives a steady 46mph on the highway. The rest of what he says is right-on, but if he's in weather where he's getting 38mpg in winter, then no normal highway driving shows him 52-60mpg year round. >In article ><f64b89e9-6098-4655-9ec0-133500d41ee1@b15g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >getting 38mpg in winter, then no normal highway driving shows him >52-60mpg year round. How's your sister Rosie O'Donnell? WAVE >> As an example, I usually drive 10K miles per year, with about 70% >> highway. My current vehicle (2004 EXL V6) gets 22 mpg city, 30 mpg >> highway, while hybrids get lower mileage highway then they do city >> driving conditions. >> > That's not my experiences. My Prius gets 52 to 60 mpg on highway driving, I have no experiences with a hybrid, but most manufacturers advertise a lower MPG highway driving then city, at least in most of the commercial material I have seen. > year around. Don't believe Toyota's listed ratings. In town it's stop and > go, ad nauseam. I get about 43 mpg in the summer and 38 mpg in the winter. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > how much Toyota and other companies lie, I still get two to three times > the mileage I've ever got on any compact car. I've gotten 35-38 average MPG in an old Subaru that I used to have (late 70's model). One would have thought it was powered by a squirrel cage, though. Quite good in the snow.... > Mr Ed > http://www.ed-camin.com > http://home.earthlink.net/~bcamin/betty.htm > http://www.mountairykiwanis.org > http://www.ma-artleague.org > http://home.earthlink.net/~j3dogs/index.htm > I have no experiences with a hybrid, but most manufacturers advertise a > lower MPG highway driving then city, at least in most of the commercial > material I have seen. In the US automakers are required to show only the EPA's figures, which are faulty. Real Priuses usually get better fuel economy on the highway than in stop-and-go city driving. >> I have no experiences with a hybrid, but most manufacturers >> advertise a lower MPG highway driving then city, at least in most of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > which are faulty. Real Priuses usually get better fuel economy on > the highway than in stop-and-go city driving. That very well may be the case, though I was speaking of all hybrids in general. Not sure if the Prius would be considered an outlier or not.... I've got a Toyota Highlander Hybrid. Highway mileage is indeed less than the suburban driving. Walt >>> I have no experiences with a hybrid, but most manufacturers >>> advertise a lower MPG highway driving then city, at least in most of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > That very well may be the case, though I was speaking of all hybrids in > general. Not sure if the Prius would be considered an outlier or not.... City driving produces more regenerative braking than highway driving. On Dec 6, 10:13 pm, <waterbi...@peoplepc.com> wrote: > I've got a Toyota Highlander Hybrid. Highway mileage is indeed less than > the suburban driving. > > Walt > I have no experiences with a hybrid, but most manufacturers advertise a > lower MPG highway driving then city, at least in most of the commercial > material I have seen. Yes, but the Prius really does *usually* do better in the city than the highway. Is possible to do worse in the city but that requires extreme effort. go to http://www.greenhybrid.com/ & see real mileage databases, this gives the mileage of real people in real time, tells you what % of mileage is city & highway. >> You might enjoy a little converter at >> www.fast-math.org/motorfuelcost.htm in which you can enter the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > My current vehicle (2004 EXL V6) gets 22 mpg city, 30 mpg highway, while > hybrids get lower mileage highway then they do city driving conditions. > go tohttp://www.greenhybrid.com/& see real mileage databases, this gives > the mileage of real people in real time, tells you what % of mileage is city [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > My current vehicle (2004 EXL V6) gets 22 mpg city, 30 mpg highway, while > > hybrids get lower mileage highway then they do city driving conditions. Any site that shows Prius battery performance for the last 10 years... they first came out in 97 right? Go to the site, search for your keyword, few problems but I suspect that is not what you want to hear. >> go tohttp://www.greenhybrid.com/& see real mileage databases, this gives >> the mileage of real people in real time, tells you what % of mileage is [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Any site that shows Prius battery performance for the last 10 years... > they first came out in 97 right? >Go to the site, search for your keyword, few problems but I suspect that is >not what you want to hear. All accounts are that hybrid batteries are holding up very well and the companies don't expect to replace many under the 8 year warranty. Toyota says it has not replaced a single battery pack due to wear and tear or failure. That includes some Priuses with over 200,000 miles. >>> go tohttp://www.greenhybrid.com/& see real mileage databases, this gives >>> the mileage of real people in real time, tells you what % of mileage is [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> Any site that shows Prius battery performance for the last 10 years... >> they first came out in 97 right? On Nov 27, 12:53 am, Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVr...@mindspring.com> wrote: > >Go to the site, search for your keyword, few problems but I suspect that is > >not what you want to hear. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Toyota says it has not replaced a single battery pack due to wear and > tear or failure. That includes some Priuses with over 200,000 miles. Pardon my ignorance in hybrids, I dont personally know anyone who owns a prius. I asked because I've seen some car ads selling used Prius batteries. Who buys them if all hybrid batteries are holding up?, maybe those car owners don't go to Toyota since used batteries are cheaper. Though I dont know how complicated it is to DIY a hybrid battery replacement. Are there companies who replace bad cells on a hybrid battery pack such that they revive 2 scrap battery and create one refurbished battery pack. Its just that I've heard this kind of repair method on some laptop battery computers. What would be an indication that a hybrid battery is going or gone bad? poor mpg, stalled vehicle? >On Nov 27, 12:53 am, Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVr...@mindspring.com> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >a prius. I asked because I've seen some car ads selling used Prius >batteries. Who buys them if all hybrid batteries are holding up?, There are a fair number of experimenters making all-electric cars and modifying hybrids to be plug-in hybrids. Prius batteries would be quite useful to these people. Consider your question in a different way. If hybrid batteries didn't hold up, who would be buying used ones? >maybe those car owners don't go to Toyota since used batteries are >cheaper. Though I dont know how complicated it is to DIY a hybrid >battery replacement. Well, keep in mind that the battery and other hybrid components are warranted for 8 years/100,000 miles, relatively few are out of warranty. Even if Toyota's claim means only that none were replaced under warranty, that would indicate that they are holding up pretty well. >Are there companies who replace bad cells on a >hybrid battery pack such that they revive 2 scrap battery and create >one refurbished battery pack. Its just that I've heard this kind of >repair method on some laptop battery computers. Yes, bad cells can be replaced. >What would be an indication that a hybrid battery is going or gone >bad? poor mpg, stalled vehicle? Don't know bout that. >> On Nov 27, 12:53 am, Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVr...@mindspring.com> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > There are a fair number of experimenters making all-electric cars and > modifying hybrids to be plug-in hybrids. One would have to see the numbers for this plug in to recharge application. Electric rates are +$0.20 KWH where I live! >>>On Nov 27, 12:53 am, Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVr...@mindspring.com> >>>wrote: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > One would have to see the numbers for this plug in to recharge application. > Electric rates are +$0.20 KWH where I live! The ideal solution would be middle of the night/off-peak charging, where rates are frequently a small fraction of average. >>>> On Nov 27, 12:53 am, Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVr...@mindspring.com> >>>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > The ideal solution would be middle of the night/off-peak charging, > where rates are frequently a small fraction of average. We have no allowances for off peak usage that I know of. > > The ideal solution would be middle of the night/off-peak charging, > > where rates are frequently a small fraction of average. > > We have no allowances for off peak usage that I know of. You should investigate alternate electric providers, if available. >>> The ideal solution would be middle of the night/off-peak charging, >>> where rates are frequently a small fraction of average. >> >> We have no allowances for off peak usage that I know of. > > You should investigate alternate electric providers, if available. Yes, I have. They are all within about $.01-.005 per KWH. The deregulation smells of collusion. >>>>The ideal solution would be middle of the night/off-peak charging, >>>>where rates are frequently a small fraction of average. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Yes, I have. They are all within about $.01-.005 per KWH. The deregulation > smells of collusion. Now THERE'S a surprise.... They spend more money telemarketing than they do hedging/risk managing and driving down supply chain costs. >>>>> The ideal solution would be middle of the night/off-peak charging, >>>>> where rates are frequently a small fraction of average. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Now THERE'S a surprise.... They spend more money telemarketing than > they do hedging/risk managing and driving down supply chain costs. Why pass on any savings to the end consumer? Get what the market will bear. >>>>>>The ideal solution would be middle of the night/off-peak charging, >>>>>>where rates are frequently a small fraction of average. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Why pass on any savings to the end consumer? Get what the market will bear. Which makes the concept and implementation a fraud on the public. No wonder it gets pushed so heavily. >>>> The ideal solution would be middle of the night/off-peak charging, >>>> where rates are frequently a small fraction of average. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Yes, I have. They are all within about $.01-.005 per KWH. The deregulation >smells of collusion. It isn't collusion, it's fraud. The, so called, alternate electric providers don't provide anything except an alternate address to mail your check to. The electricity they sell you is purchased from the old provider and brought to your house by the old provider. How can it be much cheaper than the electricity the old company sells to you? Here's a dirty little secret they don't tell you. In order to get a slightly cheaper rate, they sign interruptible contracts with the generating company. If there is a shortage of power your electricity is shut off. You better look into the gift horse's mouth if you know what's good for you. Jack > Here's a dirty little secret they don't tell you. In order to get a > slightly cheaper rate, they sign interruptible contracts with the > generating company. If there is a shortage of power your electricity > is shut off. Aha, so on the same aerial plant, the electrons bypass houses of AEP customers, but keep going to traditional utility customers! How do you suppose they do that? >> Here's a dirty little secret they don't tell you. In order to get a >> slightly cheaper rate, they sign interruptible contracts with the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > How do you suppose they do that? My entrance has a box controlled by "carrier current" transmissions. In the summer when A/C's are all running, all over, on an extremely hot day, my A/C will shut down for short periods. The saving isn't much but I rarely notice my house getting warmer. My KWH here is about $0.08. I've switched to heat pump & electric heat over heat pump & oil this year to see if there are any savings. Mr Ed http://www.ed-camin.com http://home.earthlink.net/~bcamin/betty.htm http://www.mountairykiwanis.org http://www.ma-artleague.org http://home.earthlink.net/~j3dogs/index.htm >>>Here's a dirty little secret they don't tell you. In order to get a >>>slightly cheaper rate, they sign interruptible contracts with the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > summer when A/C's are all running, all over, on an extremely hot day, my A/C > will shut down for short periods. And your lights dim, too? All your UPS brownout trigger? Only my A/C shuts down for short periods. No brown outs. I know the power Co. often lowers the voltage on hot days, but they are aware that synchronous motors & Compressors, trying to maintain the same power, will draw "more" amperage not less. Resistive loads will draw less. Mr Ed http://www.ed-camin.com http://home.earthlink.net/~bcamin/betty.htm http://www.mountairykiwanis.org http://www.ma-artleague.org http://home.earthlink.net/~j3dogs/index.htm >>>>Here's a dirty little secret they don't tell you. In order to get a >>>>slightly cheaper rate, they sign interruptible contracts with the [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > All your UPS brownout trigger? > Only my A/C shuts down for short periods. No brown outs. I know the power > Co. often lowers the voltage on hot days, but they are aware that > synchronous motors & Compressors, trying to maintain the same power, will > draw "more" amperage not less. Resistive loads will draw less. > > Mr Ed If more ampere is drawn, then your circuit breaker should have tripped. >>Only my A/C shuts down for short periods. No brown outs. I know the power >>Co. often lowers the voltage on hot days, but they are aware that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > If more ampere is drawn, then your circuit breaker should have > tripped. Not if voltage is below the breaker's rating. A breaker rated 20A at 120V (2.4kW), trips at 24A at 100V. >>>Only my A/C shuts down for short periods. No brown outs. I know the >>>power [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > A breaker rated 20A at 120V (2.4kW), trips at 24A at 100V. In a perfect world. My power Co doesn't lower it enough to trip. Mr Ed http://www.ed-camin.com http://home.earthlink.net/~bcamin/betty.htm http://www.mountairykiwanis.org http://www.ma-artleague.org http://home.earthlink.net/~j3dogs/index.htm >> Here's a dirty little secret they don't tell you. In order to get a >> slightly cheaper rate, they sign interruptible contracts with the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > How do you suppose they do that? Addressable by IP address electrons? >>>Here's a dirty little secret they don't tell you. In order to get a >>>slightly cheaper rate, they sign interruptible contracts with the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Addressable by IP address electrons? With a network interface on your aerial drop? No. With multiple network interfaces in your home? Possibly, if digital signals pass the various dropping transformers, or with a split wiring system in your home. Not that I've heard of such. >>>>> The ideal solution would be middle of the night/off-peak charging, >>>>> where rates are frequently a small fraction of average. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >Jack Far be it for me to defend the electric companies, but this interruptible power issue is clearly bullshit. The only way for them to cut off your power without cutting off your neighbor (who may be their customer) is to come to your house and do it. I can't see the power company coming out in trucks during a shortage to disconnect every home on their non-customer list. >>>>>> The ideal solution would be middle of the night/off-peak charging, >>>>>> where rates are frequently a small fraction of average. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >power company coming out in trucks during a shortage to disconnect >every home on their non-customer list. You are wrong. I have had interruptible power in my home here since 1979 when we moved in. The electric company put two systems in the house. 1. Interrupts the Air Conditioner. 2. The Hot Water Heater 3. The Electric Heat. 4. The pool pump motor. When they need to turn off one of my systems they send a code out and the power to that system is interrupted for the contracted time. The system has been working since 1979. Florida Power and Light has paid me a good penny over the years....LOL  SignatureScott in Florida >>> On Nov 27, 12:53 am, Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVr...@mindspring.com> >>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >One would have to see the numbers for this plug in to recharge application. >Electric rates are +$0.20 KWH where I live! Not accounting for storage losses and drivetrain inefficiency, I would estimate that $0.20/KWH equates to gas at $0.80 to 1.60 per gallon. Or Toyota doesn't have to replace the bad battery packs because when there is a problem, it recommends the owner to scrap the car. Ouch!!!!! Ray Molton, who works in the real estate industry in Houston, Texas. Ray wrote [snip] "My 2001 Toyota Prius....My dealer estimated the replacement cost at $7,000. They recommended scrapping the car for parts." Ray wrote, "Toyota doesn't want these battery issues to get out to the public. How could there be two 2001 Priuses in the same shop at the same time, if they have had no problems with the batteries?" > Pardon my ignorance in hybrids, I dont personally know anyone who owns > a prius. I asked because I've seen some car ads selling used Prius [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > What would be an indication that a hybrid battery is going or gone > bad? poor mpg, stalled vehicle? I guess the bad battery packs of Thiettranh of Concord CA (9/21/04) or Ray Molton's Priuses don't count. I'd just wait for the GM-BMW- Mercedes two-mode hybrid to come off the production line. IMO it's a superior system that's been tested in city buses since 2003. http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_prius_battery.html "Ray Molton, who works in the real estate industry in Houston, Texas. Ray wrote, "My 2001 Toyota Prius lasted five years and 113,000 miles. And then the batteries seemed to die. My dealer estimated the replacement cost at $7,000. They recommended scrapping the car for parts." Ray told me that Toyota had been "no help whatsoever on this issue." He called another dealer only to discover a larger estimate of $8,000 to $9,000. Even worse, Ray discovered that the Toyota shop had another 2001 Prius with a bad battery. Maybe there is a conspiracy brewing, after all. In a follow-up email, Ray wrote, "Toyota doesn't want these battery issues to get out to the public. How could there be two 2001 Priuses in the same shop at the same time, if they have had no problems with the batteries?" To make matters worse, Ray bought a salvage Prius battery to soften the damage to his pocketbook--only to discover that the salvage battery's #13 cell was corroded, the same #13 cell that had a problem on his Prius." On Nov 26, 9:53 pm, Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVr...@mindspring.com> wrote: > All accounts are that hybrid batteries are holding up very well and > the companies don't expect to replace many under the 8 year warranty. > Toyota says it has not replaced a single battery pack due to wear and > tear or failure. That includes some Priuses with over 200,000 miles. >I guess the bad battery packs of Thiettranh of Concord CA (9/21/04) or >Ray Molton's Priuses don't count. I'd just wait for the GM-BMW- [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >battery's #13 cell was corroded, the same #13 cell that had a problem >on his Prius." But you didn't finish the story. Ray ended up having the corroded cell cleaned up and reinstalled and the car ran like new again. If Ray had found a knowledgeable and honest service facility to start with, the problem would have been fixed in a few hours for maybe a couple hundred dollars. <http://www.hybridcars.com/technology-stories/battery-replacement-costs.html> -- quote -- I shared Ray's story with my friend, Craig Van Batenburg, a master hybrid technician who conducts workshops with independent service shops around the country. "This is exactly why I am training indy techs to work on these cars," Craig said. "It is not a problem with the nickel metal hydride cells, but a corroded connection. This is common with any electrical connector on any part of any car. The dealerships dont fix the connections. They replace the entire hybrid battery." So Rays ordeal wasnt caused by a failure of new hybrid battery technology - those batteries will last the life of the vehicle and will help save hundreds of gallons of gasoline for their owners. And the next generation of lithium ion batteries may be one of the keys to weaning America off its dependence on oil. The root of Ray's problems stemmed from an ordinary corroded connection, the failure of a huge corporation to respond to one of their customers, and the willingness of a local car dealership to profit handsomely from a problem rather than fix it at a reasonable cost. Unfortunately, these stories are just as hidden in the media as all of those so-called "hidden costs" of owning a hybrid. -- end quote -- >On Nov 26, 9:53 pm, Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVr...@mindspring.com> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> Toyota says it has not replaced a single battery pack due to wear and >> tear or failure. That includes some Priuses with over 200,000 miles. There's no > But you didn't finish the story. Ray ended up having the corroded > cell cleaned up and reinstalled and the car ran like new again. If [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > just as hidden in the media as all of those so-called "hidden costs" > of owning a hybrid. Probably used coca cola to clean the battery terminals =) Nice link. Thanks > go to http://www.greenhybrid.com/ & see real mileage databases, this gives > the mileage of real people in real time, tells you what % of mileage is > city & highway. Very interesting....nice site. >>> You might enjoy a little converter at >>> www.fast-math.org/motorfuelcost.htm in which you can enter the [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> highway, while hybrids get lower mileage highway then they do city >> driving conditions. |
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