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Car Forum / Honda Cars / May 2008Yaris, Scion xD, Honda Fit - no water temp gauge
I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small vehicle with great gas mileage. Yaris hatchback, Scion xD, or Honda Fit would work for me. Problem is, none of them has a water temp gauge, just an "idiot light." Would you consider buying a car (brand new) that only has the water temp "idiot light", but no water temp _gauge_ ? Btw, do these "idiot lights" come on early enough to prevent major engine damage, or only after the engine has overheated to the point where the head gasket is blown? Also, the next bigger models that do have the water temp gauge would be Toyota Corolla, Matrix, or Honda Civic. But the extra purchase/ ownership cost may not even offset the possible repair costs resulting from a Yaris/Fit/xD engine overheating (which, if happens, would be several years down the road.) TIA, Bubba > I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 > miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > TIA, > Bubba If you maintain the vehicle well you should not have any cooling system problems. If a guage is that important to you you can always install an aftermarket gauge later. > If you maintain the vehicle well you should not have any cooling system > problems. If a guage is that important to you you can always install an > aftermarket gauge later. How is such an aftermarket temp gauge installed - under the hood, and how is it mounted on the dashboard/instrument panel? How much does it cost? On Apr 4, 2:10 pm, bubbabu...@yahoo.com wrote: > > If you maintain the vehicle well you should not have any cooling system > > problems. If a guage is that important to you you can always install an [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > how is it mounted on the dashboard/instrument panel? How much does it > cost? My 5 speed 2000 Civic has/had/offered no tach not even as an option (thank goodness it DOES have a temp gauge) - it would have been such a pain to install an after market (tach) I learned to do without. FYI on your civic if you buy a used cluster (I got mine from Ebay) with a tach, it is a direct swap and the tach works without any further modification. Kinda neat, frustrating at the same time. And if you want to keep your original mileage on the odometer, just swap out the center gauge cluster. I bought a US cluster for my canadian car, so I didn't want to have to worry about converting from miles to kms. It took me 10 minutes to do the swap. t >On Apr 4, 2:10 pm, bubbabu...@yahoo.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >(thank goodness it DOES have a temp gauge) - it would have been such a >pain to install an after market (tach) I learned to do without. > FYI on your civic if you buy a used cluster (I got mine from Ebay) with a > tach, it is a direct swap and the tach works without any further modification. i've done that a couple of times on my hondas. > Kinda neat, frustrating at the same time. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > It took me 10 minutes to do the swap. you can swap the speedo instrument within the cluster too. that way you keep your original mileage. within model classes, they're interchangeable. > t > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> (thank goodness it DOES have a temp gauge) - it would have been such a >> pain to install an after market (tach) I learned to do without. An idiot light might not come on soon enough to prevent engine damage. On some vehicles if you loose coolant pressure because of a leak the boiling temperature will be too low to cause the idiot light to come on. It is getting harder to find vehicles with gauges. Most cars I have owned had temperature, voltage, and oil pressure gauges. My Fusion has only a temperature gauge. > I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 > miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > TIA, > Bubba  SignatureMike Walsh > An idiot light might not come on soon enough to prevent engine damage. On > some vehicles if you loose coolant pressure because of a leak the boiling > temperature will be too low to cause the idiot light to come on. I don't believe that is true. The coolant does not have to boil for the light to come on. The temp sensor only senses the temperature of the water, it has no way to determine if it is boiling or not. What may happen with a sudden leak is the coolant level will drop low enough that the temp sensor is no longer immersed in coolant. Being the sensor is no longer in contact with the coolant it will not turn the light on until it is too late. > It is getting harder to find vehicles with gauges. Most cars I have owned > had temperature, voltage, and oil pressure gauges. My Fusion has only a > temperature >gauge. I know. I prefer gauges myself but the are getting harder to find. >> I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 >> miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> TIA, >> Bubba >> An idiot light might not come on soon enough to prevent engine >> damage. On some vehicles if you loose coolant pressure because of a [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >>> TIA, >>> Bubba An "idiot" light uses a sensor that is just a switch that flips once the design temp is exceeded. But a true temperature gauge uses a sensor that MEASURES the temp,and the gauge gives warning BEFORE the temp goes "over the top". A gauge gives you more info,and sooner. A stuck thermostat may cause your engine tempo to cycle from 'cold' to 'hot'(affecting mileage) but an idiot light will not show that unless 'hot' exceeds the sensor limit.But a gauge will show that variation,and will show an engine running hotter than usual but within tolerance,showing something has changed[a problem!],that an idiot light will ignore. (until it's too late...) Every car should have a temp gauge,not an idiot light. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net > > An idiot light might not come on soon enough to prevent engine damage. On > > some vehicles if you loose coolant pressure because of a leak the boiling [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > longer immersed in coolant. Being the sensor is no longer in contact with the > coolant it will not turn the light on until it is too late. If there is no pressure e.g. because of a loose cap the coolant can slowly boil away without the idiot light coming on. The same is true if you use only water with no antifreeze. The boiling point of water at sea level pressure is 212 degF. With 50% antifreeze and a high pressure radiator cap the boiling point will be about 270 degF. An idiot light might not come on until 240 degF. You are correct about the light not coming on if the coolant is low. I have seen engines that became so hot that the the head gasket blows and the driver swears that the idiot light never came on. SignatureMike Walsh > I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 > miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Would you consider buying a car (brand new) that only has the water > temp "idiot light", but no water temp _gauge_ ? Yes, I would. > Btw, do these "idiot lights" come on early enough to prevent major > engine damage, or only after the engine has overheated to the point > where the head gasket is blown? It's usually an "operator malfunction" for some folks not acting quick enough in response to a caution or warning light that is damaging. I've heard it said many times "I saw the light but I didn't know what it meant". I say to myself, hey, it's only money, why should you care. If they didn't know what the light meant, I would doubt a gauge would be any more meaningful to them. Sometimes to learn what a light means, they see the results of driving with the low oil pressure light on in a sixty thousand dollar car because the person (woman) did not act, they just kept driving, until it stopped. Very instructional. Hubby was not happy. Like I say, it's only money. You sound like an aware type of person, so a light instead of a gauge would be fine for you, but you could add an after market gauge if you wanted. > Also, the next bigger models that do have the water temp gauge would > be Toyota Corolla, Matrix, or Honda Civic. But the extra purchase/ > ownership cost may not even offset the possible repair costs resulting > from a Yaris/Fit/xD engine overheating (which, if happens, would be > several years down the road.) I've been driving a Corolla when I'm not in a truck since '03 and IMHO they are great cars, no problems. > TIA, > Bubba >I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 >miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small >vehicle with great gas mileage. Yaris hatchback, Scion xD, or Honda >Fit would work for me. Problem is, none of them has a water temp >gauge, just an "idiot light." None of them have oil pressure gauges either, or what a few years ago would have been considered normal instrumentation. You MAY be able to ask the dealer for a "gauge package" but the number of cars available with real gauges is slim. >Would you consider buying a car (brand new) that only has the water >temp "idiot light", but no water temp _gauge_ ? I wouldn't. But what is even WORSE are the fake gauges which you see on an increasing number of cars. They look like real gauges, but they only register three different levels. Apparently having gauges that move around too much is "confusing" for the driver. >Btw, do these "idiot lights" come on early enough to prevent major >engine damage, or only after the engine has overheated to the point >where the head gasket is blown? That depends. The basic idea is that they're supposed to come on well before the point of damage. But there's really only one way to find out. >Also, the next bigger models that do have the water temp gauge would >be Toyota Corolla, Matrix, or Honda Civic. But the extra purchase/ >ownership cost may not even offset the possible repair costs resulting >from a Yaris/Fit/xD engine overheating (which, if happens, would be >several years down the road.) You can always install aftermarket gauges. And not that although I wouldn't buy a car without gauges, I'm also a luddite who wouldn't buy most any car made today. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." <bubbabubbs@yahoo.com> ... > I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 > miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Would you consider buying a car (brand new) that only has the water > temp "idiot light", but no water temp _gauge_ ? *snip* I'll trade you the temp gauge for your tachometer! 2000 Echoes didn't have them. Natalie In article <a2844e70-1367-4514-a9e4-2bc5902651ac@n58g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, > Would you consider buying a car (brand new) that only has the water > temp "idiot light", but no water temp _gauge_ ? Sure. But if it really bothers you, it's easy to get devices that plug into the OBD-II port and give you more information about your car than you ever want to know. For example: http://www.scangauge.com/ "Elmo P. Shagnasty"... > In article > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > http://www.scangauge.com/ I agree with Elmo on this. Tomes "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in news:elmop- 5B3E3E.06302805042008@nntp2.usenetserver.com: > In article ><a2844e70-1367-4514-a9e4-2bc5902651ac@n58g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > http://www.scangauge.com/ why should you have to BUY what should be standard,that gives important information? SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net > > But if it really bothers you, it's easy to get devices that plug into > > the OBD-II port and give you more information about your car than you [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > why should you have to BUY what should be standard,that gives important > information? Define "should". ALL cars are built on compromise. This particular compromise is very small, and shouldn't make someone not want the car. That they made a decision not to include it, is immaterial. If you want the car, the $160 for a Scangauge may be easy enough to swallow to give you the car AND the feature that you want in it. >I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 >miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Would you consider buying a car (brand new) that only has the water >temp "idiot light", but no water temp _gauge_ ? Yes. On many of the cars that have gauges now the gauge is nothing more than an idiot light with a needle. The gauge is either cold, normal or hot. Same with oil pressure... It's either 0 or normal. I was told manufacturers started doing this because people would bring a car back in for warranty repair when the gauge reading was still "normal" but not exactly like it always was. >Btw, do these "idiot lights" come on early enough to prevent major >engine damage, or only after the engine has overheated to the point >where the head gasket is blown? They aren't as good as a gauge, but really who has cooling system problems anymore? The last time I had a car overheat it was because a hose blew out and in that case neither the gauge nor the idiot light detected it in time to avoid damage. Since neither was in water anymore they didn't detect the rising temp until waayyy to late. >Also, the next bigger models that do have the water temp gauge would >be Toyota Corolla, Matrix, or Honda Civic. But the extra purchase/ >ownership cost may not even offset the possible repair costs resulting >from a Yaris/Fit/xD engine overheating (which, if happens, would be >several years down the road.) I wouldn't upgrade just for that feature. Replace all the hoses every five years and don't worry about it. > >Also, the next bigger models that do have the water temp gauge would > >be Toyota Corolla, Matrix, or Honda Civic. But the extra purchase/ [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I wouldn't upgrade just for that feature. Replace all the hoses every > five years and don't worry about it. People still do that? Hoses outlast engines these days. I have had it happen twice already. >>> Also, the next bigger models that do have the water temp gauge would >>> be Toyota Corolla, Matrix, or Honda Civic. But the extra purchase/ [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > People still do that? Hoses outlast engines these days. I have had > it happen twice already. two engines??? doubtless their demise was assisted by your close attention to the highly accurate and meaningful temperature gauge. >>> Also, the next bigger models that do have the water temp gauge would >>> be Toyota Corolla, Matrix, or Honda Civic. But the extra purchase/ [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > People still do that? Hoses outlast engines these days. I have had > it happen twice already. Then you must have really crappy engines.... > I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 > miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > engine damage, or only after the engine has overheated to the point > where the head gasket is blown? depends if you stop when it first comes on or not. truth is, water gauges are an historic anachronism. if you look at the typical car's temp gauge, they don't have a linear response, it's a step function. that means that when it's in the "normal" zone, there can be considerable temperature variation and you'll never see any difference in indicator position. given that it's not really any interest when the coolant is cold, and there is no visible variability under normal operating conditions, that only leaves the "too hot" zone to be of any real interest - and there's no reason it can't be served by an indicator light. in fact, it may be a good deal more useful than a honda where if you don't happen to look down at the gauge to catch a problem in time, you can easily cook an engine. most people notice right away when a light comes on. > Also, the next bigger models that do have the water temp gauge would > be Toyota Corolla, Matrix, or Honda Civic. But the extra purchase/ [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > TIA, > Bubba >I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 >miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >TIA, >Bubba Yes, I would. I've had many vehicles with real gauges and a few of them overheated and I never noticed the gauge go up because it happened so fast (blown hose). I might have noticed an idiot light. I'd like to have both in an ideal setup. It's nice to know what's happening with water temp on a long uphill, esp if you are towing something. My 99 Mustang GT has a temp, oil and volt gauge but all are just idiot gauges. At least on the mustang you can put the Dashboard odometer into "diagnostic mode" and it will give a true digital readout of water temp. I think most idiot lights for water temp are set to go on at about 235 degrees. If everything is good in the cooling system it should not boil till it hits 260 degrees. >>I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 >>miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > temp are set to go on at about 235 degrees. If everything is good in > the cooling system it should not boil till it hits 260 degrees. I agree, I think the ideal setup would be gauges with an idiot light right inside the gauge. Unfortunately if you want something like that you have to do it yourself. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel >>>I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 >>>miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > nate Many gas gauges do that;when you get down too far,the warning light comes on. With today's modern LCD dashes,such a thing ought to be easy to implement.Have a bright LED behind the hi segments that would light when those segments are activated. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net > >>>I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 > >>>miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > implement.Have a bright LED behind the hi segments that would light when > those segments are activated. Now that I think about it I think my Porsche works like that, but I've never seen the warning lights even bulb check. My fluke says everything is working fine, so I don't know what gives. nate On Apr 6, 10:27 pm, Jim Yanik <jya...@abuse.gov> wrote: > Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net> wrote > innews:ftbr6n1273o@news3.newsguy.com: > > Ashton Crusher wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >>>Would you consider buying a car (brand new) that only has the water > >>>temp "idiot light", but no water temp _gauge_ ? Even with a proper temperature gauge, you need to consider whether the gauge is in a visible place on the dashboard. First prize for "Most Stupid Position for Temperature Gauge" has to go to the Renault 14 (probably early 1980s vintage) which placed the gauge low-down on the central console, behind the gear lever. Not a place that you will frequently check it as you look at the everyday gauges like speedometer and fuel, and warning lights such as ignition, oil pressure and handbrake. Many years ago my sister was driving my mother's Renault 14 shortly after she learned to drive and wrote off the engine because a radiator hose burst and the only warning that the engine was overheating was this insignificant gauge on an obscure part of the dashboard. > On Apr 6, 10:27 pm, Jim Yanik <jya...@abuse.gov> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > and the only warning that the engine was overheating was this insignificant > gauge on an obscure part of the dashboard. Under the hood, drill the dasboard, over the dashboard, place it on the left pillar. That's too time consuming. Just get the "Scan Gauge" and plug it into the obdII diagnostics port. Besides it being a trip computer, one of the gauges is a water temperature digital readout. D. >>I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 >>miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > temp are set to go on at about 235 degrees. If everything is good in > the cooling system it should not boil till it hits 260 degrees. OTOH,my 94 Integra GS-R had a stuck thermostat,and I noticed the temp gauge rising when I stopped and falling to 'Cold' when I was driving. I got the parts and fixed it before anything worse happened. And the last car I had with only an idiot light blew a rad hose (during a Buffalo blizzard) and left me stranded out in the middle of nowhere(Millersport Rd),except that a generous person stopped and gave me and my bud a ride ALL the why home,quite out of their way. The idiot light was useless to me. Conclusion;idiot lights are for idiots. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net >>> I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 >>> miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > Conclusion;idiot lights are for idiots. in the civic, the temp gauge pointer is calibrated to be flat line from 85C to 100C. that's a pretty broad range with zero needle movement, especially when you consider the thermostat starts opening at 78C and is fully open at 90C, and it makes any needle movement other than "hot" pretty much meaningless - "idiot light" territory. while i "like" to have a gauge myself, engineering reality is that it doesn't mean much in this situation and an idiot light would probably be a better single choice if, like me, you just happen to be distracted and don't check the gauges and end up cooking the motor one day. a light is much more noticeable. > I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 > miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small > vehicle with great gas mileage. Yaris hatchback, Scion xD, or Honda > Fit would work for me. Problem is, none of them has a water temp > gauge, just an "idiot light." Just another sign of the "drivers are stupid, they don't need to know anything" mentality of modern cars. Well, not JUST modern cars- General Motors used nothing but idiot lights on most of its cars through the 60s and 70s, but GM was the exception. Then in the 80s, Ford started using "gauges" that were controlled by pressure switches for oil pressure- so that they either read "normal" or "zero". Yeah, real helpful, but it stopped people complaining about "the oil pressure changes when I speed up!" From a driver information standpoint, the BEST setup is a gauge AND a "check gauges" light that turns on (and sometimes rings a chime) when a gauge is out of range. Its easy to overlook a gauge that's slowly creeping out of range. > Just another sign of the "drivers are stupid, they don't need to know > anything" mentality of modern cars. Do you know the refrigerant pressure in your refrigerator? No? Why not? Do you know the temperature inside your fridge? Oh, I see--you added a thermometer so you'd know. The little "1-6" dial isn't enough for you, so you added something the manufacturer didn't include. And yet you bought the fridge anyhow. >> Just another sign of the "drivers are stupid, they don't need to know >> anything" mentality of modern cars. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > so you added something the manufacturer didn't include. And yet you > bought the fridge anyhow. good analogy! Then get a Ford Focus, or some other similiar car with a gauge instead. Then call up all the makers of the cars that you didn't buy and mention that a lack of temperature gauge was why you didn't buy their car. I wouldn't buy a car without a temperature gauge, or tachometer either. That and I always add a voltmeter. > Then get a Ford Focus, or some other similiar car with a gauge > instead. Then call up all the makers of the cars that you didn't buy [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I wouldn't buy a car without a temperature gauge, or tachometer > either. That and I always add a voltmeter. that makes no logical sense because the temperature gauge is extremely non-linear. it doesn't really tell you anything other than whether the motor is in the normal range or if it's too hot. and only one of those two pieces of information is actually important. a light can do that job, probably better because you might actually pay attention! elmo's analogy is excellent because there's a lot of info about many things that any machine operator doesn't actually need to know - they only need to know if something is wrong. and this is one of those situations. > that makes no logical sense because the temperature gauge is extremely > non-linear. it doesn't really tell you anything other than whether the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > only need to know if something is wrong. and this is one of those > situations. Oh, REALLY? That's patently nonsense, and I can give you a concrete example. The whole point is that the gauge will tell you when some things are wrong that a dipshit light will not. My wife's car (1993 Chrysler LH) has an analog temperature gauge which, despite actually being routed second-hand through the engine computer, has come in very handy. That car has dual electric cooling fans, and a few years ago one fan motor failed. Because it had a GAUGE and not an idiot light, she was able to see that it was running just slightly hotter than normal (about 1/2 division, or maybe 15 degrees F) in traffic, so we opened the hood and checked things out. The one remaining fan *SOUNDED* normal, so I would have ever noticed the problem without that gauge, and my wife could have been stranded somewhere or I could have wound up with a pair of warped cylinder heads and a ruined engine if the second fan had failed also. Instead I was able to put the fan motor on order and then replace it without ever having to take the car out of service except for the actual time required to change the fan motor (about half an hour). Similarly, I've had oil pressure gauges behaving in an abnormal way warn me that the oil filter had collapsed internally and was bypassing all the time- something that an idiot light would never do. Lights are ONLY useful to call attention to a reading that's gone out of range. Gauges warn before the problem gets critical. The best of both worlds is a light that tells you to check the gauges. > Lights are ONLY useful to call attention to a reading that's gone out of > range. Gauges warn before the problem gets critical. The best of both > worlds is a light that tells you to check the gauges. <brag> My 2001 Trans Am has gauges. And a "check gauges" idiot light. And they appear to either be real gauges or very convincing software "clones" - oil pressure starts high at a cold start, varies with RPM and is lower at idle when the engine is warm. It even registers a bit higher when I run 10W30 in it vs 5W30. </brag> Of course, it didn't come with a shift light. Ray >> Lights are ONLY useful to call attention to a reading that's gone out >> of range. Gauges warn before the problem gets critical. The best of [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Ray Anyone who actually uses a shift light should stick to driving automatics.... ;-) >>> Lights are ONLY useful to call attention to a reading that's gone out >>> of range. Gauges warn before the problem gets critical. The best of [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Anyone who actually uses a shift light should stick to driving > automatics.... ;-) The purpose of the shift light is for drag racing. When the nitrous kicks in, it's important that I don't hit the factory rev limiter. (why? because the factory rev limiter works by dropping a cylinder, and if the nitrous is flowing and I don't get a spark, I'll probably end up blowing the engine sky high.) And anyone who makes a comment about shift lights and automatics probably doesn't (a) bracket race or (b) have 400+ hp on tap. :) Ray >>> Of course, it didn't come with a shift light. >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > The purpose of the shift light is for drag racing. When the nitrous > kicks in, it's important that I don't hit the factory rev limiter. Oh, you mean a REAL shift light that is clearly visible without looking down, looks like an old flashlight, has a cover for when you're not racing... not the dumb little up-arrow on the dashboard that comes on whenever Toyota thinks you should be using less fuel. > And anyone who makes a comment about shift lights and automatics > probably doesn't (a) bracket race or (b) have 400+ hp on tap. :) OR just didn't understand the kind of light you meant. <snipped> > Oh, you mean a REAL shift light that is clearly visible without looking > down, looks like an old flashlight, has a cover for when you're not > racing... not the dumb little up-arrow on the dashboard that comes on > whenever Toyota thinks you should be using less fuel. Toyota did not equip any cars with shift lights. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) > <snipped> >> Oh, you mean a REAL shift light that is clearly visible without looking [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Toyota did not equip any cars with shift lights. 80s Corollas sure had them. >> <snipped> >>> Oh, you mean a REAL shift light that is clearly visible without looking [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > 80s Corollas sure had them. My memory must be getting bad... I don't remember shift lights in any 80's Corollas, or any Toyotas, at least while I worked for Toyota. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) On Apr 22, 11:33 pm, "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote: > >> <snipped> > >>> Oh, you mean a REAL shift light that is clearly visible without looking [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > My memory must be getting bad... I don't remember shift lights in any 80's > Corollas, or any Toyotas, at least while I worked for Toyota. I don't know about your memory getting bad, because I have yet to see one either. Of course I didn't drive in the 80's, but have seen many an 80-up between working at home and being in the dealer for so long. It would be difficult to substantiate short of a well kept owner's manual or an actual model still up and running. They've been long gone from salty snowy MO for some time now. Toyota MDT in MO On Apr 22, 11:33 pm, "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote: > "Steve" <n...@spam.thanks> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > My memory must be getting bad... I don't remember shift lights in any 80's > Corollas, or any Toyotas, at least while I worked for Toyota. I don't know about your memory getting bad, because I have yet to see one either. Of course I didn't drive in the 80's, but have seen many an 80-up between working at home and being in the dealer for so long. It would be difficult to substantiate short of a well kept owner's manual or an actual model still up and running. They've been long gone from salty snowy MO for some time now. Toyota MDT in MO ********** It's good to know that my memory wasn't THAT bad! An upshift light is something that would have been pointed out in the New Car Features, and since I am not a fan of such lights, I thought I would have remembered it. The poster must have been thinking about his VW or something. Welcome back! SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >>>> Of course, it didn't come with a shift light. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > OR just didn't understand the kind of light you meant. LOL. Yeah, my truck has the "hey dummy, upshift light you're going to get an extra .25 mpg" and my TA is getting the "hey dummy, upshift because the rev limiter's gonna kick in and you're gonna blow the motor" light. (It's after I replace the shredded factory clutch.) I forget that shift lights mean different things - when I say shift light I assume the latter one. Ray > Oh, you mean a REAL shift light that is clearly visible without looking > down, looks like an old flashlight, has a cover for when you're not > racing... not the dumb little up-arrow on the dashboard that comes on > whenever Toyota thinks you should be using less fuel. (Just saw this post over a week late...) I'm sorry, but which Toyota would that be that has an annoying upshift light? Seems that's more of an 80's piece of crap domestic brand kind of thing. Toyota MDT in MO > <brag> > My 2001 Trans Am has gauges. And a "check gauges" idiot light. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Of course, it didn't come with a shift light. An interesting note to the "Godsend" GM shift light is that it was operated by the same circuit (and then slightly modified by vehicle speed rationality logic) as the torque converter lock up circuit used on automatic trans models. Sure miss *that* feature :-) Toyota MDT in MO >> <brag> >> My 2001 Trans Am has gauges. And a "check gauges" idiot light. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Toyota MDT in MO I forgot about that "shift light" - my truck has one... the upshift to save gas nag light. On my old Jimmy I just took the bulb out. On my current truck, where I like the steering wheel it just blocks it. Ray >> <brag> >> My 2001 Trans Am has gauges. And a "check gauges" idiot light. And [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Toyota MDT in MO Comboverfish! Stop hanging around in r.a.t (hey, how about that!) and come back to us!!! As for those lights, I had one in a Jetta, and got WORSE fuel economy using it! >>> <brag> >>> My 2001 Trans Am has gauges. And a "check gauges" idiot light. And [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > As for those lights, I had one in a Jetta, and got WORSE fuel economy > using it! I've got one in my Jeep. I set my steering wheel height so that I just do not see it at all. Tomes >>><brag> >>>My 2001 Trans Am has gauges. And a "check gauges" idiot light. And [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > As for those lights, I had one in a Jetta, and got WORSE fuel economy > using it! Hell... My ol' '83 Civic FE has a shift light that is controlled by tach speeds. I find it to be generally annoying.. JT >> Just another sign of the "drivers are stupid, they don't need to know >> anything" mentality of modern cars. > > Do you know the refrigerant pressure in your refrigerator? No? Why not? Because, unlike a car, a refrigerator's refrigerant system is hermetically sealed. It CANNOT leak unless its physically punctured. Refrigerators don't fail by losing refrigerant, they fail when the compressor locks up or burns out. > Do you know the temperature inside your fridge? Oh, I see--you added a > thermometer so you'd know. The little "1-6" dial isn't enough for you, > so you added something the manufacturer didn't include. And yet you > bought the fridge anyhow. That is without a doubt the STUPIDEST analogy I've ever read. And if you really see a car as equivalent to an 'appliance,' then we've really got nothing to discuss anyway. > > Do you know the refrigerant pressure in your refrigerator? No? Why not? > > Because, unlike a car, a refrigerator's refrigerant system is > hermetically sealed. It CANNOT leak unless its physically punctured. Ah, so it CAN leak. Wouldn't you want to know if that happened? The point is, something could go wrong at any time, refrigerator or car. Wouldn't you want a gauge showing you at a moment's notice as the refrigerant is slowly leaking out, so that you don't end up with a warm fridge and spoiled food? of COURSE that's abnormal. But then, so is the car overheating. > The point is, something could go wrong at any time, refrigerator or car. > Wouldn't you want a gauge showing you at a moment's notice as the > refrigerant is slowly leaking out, so that you don't end up with a warm > fridge and spoiled food? Unless most of the leaks ended up being at the gauge. >>> Do you know the refrigerant pressure in your refrigerator? No? Why not? >> Because, unlike a car, a refrigerator's refrigerant system is >> hermetically sealed. It CANNOT leak unless its physically punctured. > > Ah, so it CAN leak. Wouldn't you want to know if that happened? The probability of a rock flying into the condesor coils underneath my fridge and causing a leak is astronomically low. The odds of a rock nicking a tube in my radiator is not nearly as low (lower if the car has A/C because the condensor would take the hit first....). Also there are about 4 to 9 pressurized rubber hoses and 8 to 18 hose clamps all waiting to leak on a car cooling system, not to mention fans that can fail, thermostats that get sticky, and radiator caps that quit holding pressure, etc. etc. And that's just the SUBTLE failures that will first show up by mild overheating, not the disasters like a burst hose or blown head gasket. > The point is, something could go wrong at any time, refrigerator or car. > Wouldn't you want a gauge showing you at a moment's notice as the > refrigerant is slowly leaking out, so that you don't end up with a warm > fridge and spoiled food? > > of COURSE that's abnormal. But then, so is the car overheating. A fridge failing is FAR more abnormal (and less expensive when it does happen) than a car running hot. > > Ah, so it CAN leak. Wouldn't you want to know if that happened? > > The probability of a rock flying into the condesor coils underneath my > fridge and causing a leak is astronomically low. True. But the probability of your $900 fridge being a cheap piece of Chinese junk and leaking coolant and ruining the food in your fridge is MUCH greater today than it ever has been. Hence, it would be prudent to protect your food investment, if nothing else, by using such a gauge. > Also there are > about 4 to 9 pressurized rubber hoses and 8 to 18 hose clamps all [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > show up by mild overheating, not the disasters like a burst hose or > blown head gasket. And modern refrigerators are Chinese junk made for the sole purpose of making the manufacturer money by appearing JUST ENOUGH to be an actual fridge. The details are different from the car, but the risk of failure is just as great. >>> Ah, so it CAN leak. Wouldn't you want to know if that happened? >> The probability of a rock flying into the condesor coils underneath my [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Hence, it would be prudent to protect your food investment, if nothing > else, by using such a gauge. Its more important to buy a good fridge, not a piece of crap from made in China. All it takes is a little awareness on the buyer's part. And the ability to read the data plate... but maybe literacy IS too much to ask these days. > > Do you know the temperature inside your fridge? Oh, I see--you added a > > thermometer so you'd know. The little "1-6" dial isn't enough for you, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > And if you really see a car as equivalent to an 'appliance,' then we've > really got nothing to discuss anyway. You really don't understand how the world works, do you. Yes, the car is an appliance--for 99.9% of the people out there. Yet you, somehow, think that your desire to have a temp gauge that behaves the way you want it means that it's a necessity. >>> Do you know the temperature inside your fridge? Oh, I see--you added a >>> thermometer so you'd know. The little "1-6" dial isn't enough for you, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > You really don't understand how the world works, do you. Yes, I do. The manufacturers build for the majority of nitwits. I just don't necessarily LIKE the way the world works.... > Yes, the car is an appliance--for 99.9% of the people out there. Yet > you, somehow, think that your desire to have a temp gauge that behaves > the way you want it means that it's a necessity. Actually, >>I<< never said that it would stop me from buying a car at all. Its trivial to add a gauge if its important to you (and it SHOULD be, but I digress again.) On the other hand, when I see that a manufacturer took the time to put in a gauge, it makes me think hjust a little more highly of the competence of the engineers who stood their ground against the air-headed right-brain type stylists, marketing lizards, and bean-counters. >>>> Do you know the temperature inside your fridge? Oh, I see--you >>>> added a thermometer so you'd know. The little "1-6" dial isn't [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > ground against the air-headed right-brain type stylists, marketing > lizards, and bean-counters. no dude, it's the other way around. the engineers doctor the gauge so it only tells you two things - normal and too hot, and only one of those is important. left to their own devices, they'd leave the waste of space out. it's the marketing lizards that insist on a gauge because people like you think they need one and get all amped up about a subject they haven't bothered to analyze or don't understand. even when given the facts. > no dude, it's the other way around. the engineers doctor the gauge so > it only tells you two things - normal and too hot, and only one of those > is important. That's simply not true. The HISTORY of the situation is that engineers installed gauges for years. Then came idiot lights because designers and stylists liked the "modern, all-electric" look of the dashboards they could create. Then gauges made a comeback. THEN, the automakers started getting complaints from people who'd grown up on idiot lights, and didn't understand normal behavior, most particularly of the oil pressure. THAT is when the "dummy" gauges that read mid-scale or nothing at all appeared. > left to their own devices, they'd leave the waste of > space out. Engineers NEVER leave instrumentation out of ANYTHING if left to their own devices. Left to their own devices they'd install an oil pressure gauge before the filter, one after, and one at the last feed off the oil galley. You'd have a water temp gauge before and after the radiator, a transmission oil temperature gauge before and after the cooler, and 8 individual exhaust gas temperature probes. >it's the marketing lizards that insist on a gauge because > people like you think they need one and get all amped up about a subject > they haven't bothered to analyze or don't understand. even when given > the facts. He says, as if he'd know a fact if it jumped up and bit his a.s.... > Engineers NEVER leave instrumentation out of ANYTHING if > left to their own devices. Left to their own devices [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > after the cooler, and 8 individual exhaust gas temperature > probes. This would fail to solve the first engineering problem, which is have a good car of xyz dimensions. You can't get everything in without trading off something else that is important to the engineering. It's also false that engineers do not make economic decisions. In this instance, more gages = more manufacturing costs = less than optimal sales and profit. >> Engineers NEVER leave instrumentation out of ANYTHING if >> left to their own devices. Left to their own devices [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > = more manufacturing costs = less than optimal sales and > profit. As a working engineer, I realize that. I might have exaggerated a bit, but in general powertrain engineers would argue that electric seat warmers be omitted to meet weight and cost before they would leave out instrumentation. Certainly very few powertrain engineers would want to leave something so basic as a temperature gauge and oil pressure gauge out of their own car. > Elle wrote: >>> Engineers NEVER leave instrumentation out of ANYTHING if [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > weight and cost before they would leave out > instrumentation. Me being a retired engineer specialized in power plants, it depends on the instrumentation. (Call that a nitpick; I am betting you know this.) A prime example is the tachometer. Many automatic transmission cars have one. It could be argued to be superfluous for auto trannies and manual trannies. I suppose it is in auto tranny cars because it helps sell the car, though. > Certainly very few powertrain engineers would want to > leave something so basic as a temperature gauge and oil > pressure gauge out of their own car. I do not think anyone here disputes that some sort of gage or idiot light--one or the other, at least--for coolant temperature and oil pressure is a very good idea. We're talking about automotive design and how systems integrate (e.g. when it comes to using space; offering safety to the passengers; etc.). A contingent of engineers will be focused on passenger comfort, and with the marketing department, they will run the numbers and find that the seat warmers sell X amount of cars at Y price, so they need to make it work for Z dollars a car. Related aside: Laypeople of course can discuss this topic intelligently, because this is about tradeoffs. Many of these tradeoffs are understandable simply with the application of common sense. >> Elle wrote: >>>> Engineers NEVER leave instrumentation out of ANYTHING if [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > trannies. I suppose it is in auto tranny cars because it > helps sell the car, though. Not only that, but it is helpful, because one is able to determine what gear a car is in by comparing the vehicle speed with the engine speed. Plus, if one has a manual transmission, if the engine speeds seem to creep up when going uphill, but the road speed stays constant, this suggests that there is a problem with the clutch (and soon, your bank account is going to take a hit). >> Certainly very few powertrain engineers would want to >> leave something so basic as a temperature gauge and oil [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > sell X amount of cars at Y price, so they need to make it > work for Z dollars a car. Actually, good engineering means reducing the number of gauges. Imagine if every operation on your computer required a gauge. You'd have one for your disk drives, ethernet card, wireless card, one for each of your USB drives, for the temperature, a bunch for different keyboard settings, for your floppy diskdrive (older machine only), your fire wire, for the state of the batteries, your video port, the audio I/O, etc. Your computer would have more gauges than a nuclear power plant (and Bush wouldn't be able to say it, either). > Related aside: Laypeople of course can discuss this topic > intelligently, because this is about tradeoffs. Many of > these tradeoffs are understandable simply with the > application of common sense. What about priests and other clergy members? Should they be able to understand it? There is some good info about how engines work on the internet (How stuff works has a lot). Plus, there is this neat building(s) in most towns called "a library" where they have books on the subject. And if you're in school, you can ask your science teacher, too. jeff > Actually, good engineering means reducing the number of > gauges. The meaning of "good engineering" depends on the goals of what is being engineered. E.g. for a vehicle where engineers and technicians are trying to improve XYZ, additional gages ABC may be warranted, at least temporarily. >> Actually, good engineering means reducing the number of >> gauges. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and technicians are trying to improve XYZ, additional gages > ABC may be warranted, at least temporarily. but in this day and age, you'd just record the computer's data output. it's a host of feeds available, engine temp being just one of them. in real time. > Actually, good engineering means reducing the number of gauges. Imagine > if every operation on your computer required a gauge. You'd have one for > your disk drives, ethernet card, wireless card, one for each of your USB > drives, for the temperature, a bunch for different keyboard settings, > for your floppy diskdrive (older machine only), your fire wire, for the > state of the batteries, your video port, the audio I/O, etc. Of course, you CAN call up programs that do monitor and put a "gauge" on all of those items. Right now I have a CPU utilization bar graph in the lower corner of my screen. I can switch it to network I/O, disk I/O, or disk space used if I want. Good engineering really means making the RIGHT information available at the RIGHT time. With a car, the critical things that need to be displayed are fairly simple: Engine temperature, oil pressure, speed, and fuel remaining are the big 4. The best designs, as I have said, make all 4 available as analog readouts, and ALSO will turn on an attention-getting light and/or ring a chime if any of them (except speed) get out of the normal range. That's been done for decades (my wife's 1993 car being so equipped) so its just DUMB to regress. The point I've been belaboring is that to reduce oil pressure and water temperature to ONLY a warning light is actually denying the driver information that he/she might occasionally want or need, and which can be valuable. Certainly the average driver doesn't need to know the exhaust gas temperature and oxygen content, but with only 4 basic readouts really NEEDED, why deny any one of them? It would be a different matter if there were 10 parameters equal in importance to oil pressure and coolant temp and designers would have to start making decisions about what needs to be primary and what could be secondary, but there just AREN'T!! >> Elle wrote: >>>> Engineers NEVER leave instrumentation out of ANYTHING if [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > trannies. I suppose it is in auto tranny cars because it > helps sell the car, though. And even though its mostly window dressing, it does come in handy even in an automatic car to indicate if the transmission starts slipping, TC clutch fails to lock, etc. But yeah, 99.999% of the life of the car, a tach in an automatic is worthless and a prime example of something that's there ONLY for marketing. >> Certainly very few powertrain engineers would want to >> leave something so basic as a temperature gauge and oil [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > sell X amount of cars at Y price, so they need to make it > work for Z dollars a car. Agreed. Sad though the result may often be.... >> no dude, it's the other way around. the engineers doctor the gauge so >> it only tells you two things - normal and too hot, and only one of [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Engineers NEVER leave instrumentation out of ANYTHING if left to their > own devices. if for their own testing, no. but engineers make stuff to be used by people that don't know what they're doing. like you. > Left to their own devices they'd install an oil pressure > gauge before the filter, one after, and one at the last feed off the oil > galley. You'd have a water temp gauge before and after the radiator, a > transmission oil temperature gauge before and after the cooler, and 8 > individual exhaust gas temperature probes. so you think an "engineer" is going to put a 747 flight deck instrumentation cluster into my grandmothers lincoln and expect her to learn to use it???? engineers aren't stupid. >> it's the marketing lizards that insist on a gauge because people like >> you think they need one and get all amped up about a subject they >> haven't bothered to analyze or don't understand. even when given the >> facts. > > He says, as if he'd know a fact if it jumped up and bit his a.s.... says the guy that thinks a dummy water temp meter is giving him useful information!!! >> He says, as if he'd know a fact if it jumped up and bit his a.s.... > > says the guy that thinks a dummy water temp meter is giving him useful > information!!! Stop drinking your name-sake while posting and you might understand more. A major component of my WHOLE ARGUMENT in this thread has been that DUMMY gauges are just idiot lights with pointers and are therefore as useless as an idiot light. How could you POSSIBLY have missed that, other than deliberately doing so just to pick an argument? >>> He says, as if he'd know a fact if it jumped up and bit his a.s.... >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > useless as an idiot light. How could you POSSIBLY have missed that, > other than deliberately doing so just to pick an argument? so why were /you/ making such a big noise about wanting a gauge? quote: "Gauges warn before the problem gets critical." "The whole point is that the gauge will tell you when some things are wrong" but now you're admitting that a warning light is as much use. quote: "gauges are just idiot lights with pointers" so you're contradicting yourself and arguing for nothing! bottom line: if you want full instrumentation, install it yourself. the stuff you get with the car is good enough for the job it has to do. any /real/ engineer should know that. On 4/22/2008 9:13 PM jim beam spake these words of knowledge: >>>> He says, as if he'd know a fact if it jumped up and bit his a.s.... >>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > so you're contradicting yourself and arguing for nothing! He was clearly talking about the use of actual working gauges, specifically as opposed to those which are dressed-up idiot lights. RFT!!! Dave Kelsen SignatureA library is an arsenal of liberty. >>>> He says, as if he'd know a fact if it jumped up and bit his a.s.... >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > so why were /you/ making such a big noise about wanting a gauge? Because /not/ wanting one is just stupid. Sure, there are reasons for el-cheapo line cars not to have a gauge, and that's fine. But for any driver to say "I'd rather have a light" is just flat dumb. No way around that. What really gets me is the idiot gauge- costs MORE than a light, but is less useful (because it doesn't attract attention, and worse yet may even give the unwitting driver the impression that its a real gauge. > quote: > "Gauges warn before the problem gets critical." [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > but now you're admitting that a warning light is as much use. Not at all. Gauges do warn you before things get critical, and you blatantly left out the obvious part of the second statement, which is that a gauge will tell you when some things are wrong WHICH A LIGHT WON'T TELL YOU. Hence my examples of 1) a dead electric fan which was indicated as a slightly abnormal gauge reading but which was not far enough out of range to have turned on a light, and 2) abnormal oil pressure behavior which indicated a collapsed filter causing the bypass valve to open, but was technically within the "normal" range and never turned on the idiot light. > quote: > "gauges are just idiot lights with pointers" No, I never said that YOU read it that way, but its not what I said. I said that "idiot" gauges (the kind that are just controlled by a switch which either sets them to the normal range, or drops them to zero) are just idiot lights with pointers. I never said that real analog gauges, whether mechanical or electric, are idiot lights with pointers. > so you're contradicting yourself and arguing for nothing! No, you're just showing the fact that you aren't actually reading (or comprehending) posts, you're reading a few words then shooting off your message while missing the main points. As has been the case every time you blunder into rec.autos.tech. > > so why were /you/ making such a big noise about wanting a gauge? > > Because /not/ wanting one is just stupid. In your narrow world. In the real world, plainly, things are way different. > > but now you're admitting that a warning light is as much use. > > Not at all. Gauges do warn you before things get critical, You are assuming one HELL of a lot here. You assume that people know how the machinery works in the first place. That's a strong presumption. Without the operator knowing how the machine works in the first place, a gauge is absolutely useless. See, your mind is in a very, very narrow place. YOU wanted to know how the thing works, so YOU found out. Others don't know, don't want to know, and in many cases can't understand it even if they try. A gauge is useless to those people. The world where all you need to know is that "gauges warn you before things get critical" is Springfield, and Homer Simpson runs the nuclear power plant equipment. >> > but now you're admitting that a warning light is as much use. >> >> Not at all. Gauges do warn you before things get critical, > >You are assuming one HELL of a lot here. You assume that people know >how the machinery works in the first place. That's a strong presumption. No, not really. I remember in driver's ed, a few decades ago, the instructor explaining to us that every few minutes you should move your eyes over the instrument panel and look at the gauges and see that they are all more or less nominal. If anything is in the red, pull over and call for help. If you notice it moving toward the red, get ready to pull over and call for help. >Without the operator knowing how the machine works in the first place, a >gauge is absolutely useless. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >know, and in many cases can't understand it even if they try. A gauge >is useless to those people. No, they still have eyes. Now, it's true that there are people who do not do the periodic glance over the instrument panel and notice where everything is, every few minutes. That is bad, but it's an easy skill to learn. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > No, not really. I remember in driver's ed, a few decades ago, the > instructor explaining to us that every few minutes you should move > your eyes over the instrument panel and look at the gauges and see that > they are all more or less nominal. If anything is in the red, pull over > and call for help. If you notice it moving toward the red, get ready to > pull over and call for help. I remember them teaching us to always use turn signals... You can lead a horse to water, (you can even shove it's head down in the water,) but you can't make it drink. SignatureNick > >> Not at all. Gauges do warn you before things get critical, > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > and call for help. If you notice it moving toward the red, get ready to > pull over and call for help. If all you're looking for is "in the red, pull over" then a dash light does a MUCH better job of alerting you. That's simple psychology. Unless you know the principles of operation of the whole machine, the gauge will indicate nothing to you. It may be behaving perfectly normal within its own context, but if you don't know the context then you don't understand its behavior. If the needle wiggles around up and down, the guy who has no idea what the gauge is for will worry. Hence the "idiot light driven gauges". And if all you end up with are "idiot light driven gauges," then just put in idiot lights. You save money, and you get a better alert. > Unless you know the principles of operation of the whole machine, the > gauge will indicate nothing to you. Not true at all for something as simple as oil pressure and water temperature! This isn't rocket science. > It may be behaving perfectly normal > within its own context, but if you don't know the context then you don't > understand its behavior. And my grandparents and great-grandparents, some of whom never completed high school (and at least one grandmother CERTAINLY didn't "understand the operation of the whole machine") read analog temperature and oil pressure gauges perfectly well. Never melted down an engine, never took it in to the mechanic unnecessarily either. Are you telling me that driving-age people of 2008 are simply too stupid to do such a simple task? >> Unless you know the principles of operation of the whole machine, the >> gauge will indicate nothing to you. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > it in to the mechanic unnecessarily either. Are you telling me that > driving-age people of 2008 are simply too stupid to do such a simple task? i think he's telling you that some people are too stupid to understand that a typical gauge doesn't tell people much. and in some rare cases, some individuals can't be told anything, no matter how hard it's dumbed down. On 4/25/2008 8:45 PM jim beam spake these words of knowledge: >>> Unless you know the principles of operation of the whole machine, the >>> gauge will indicate nothing to you. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > some individuals can't be told anything, no matter how hard it's dumbed > down. This may be the most ironic statement I have ever read. RFT!!! Dave Kelsen SignatureMediocrity requires aloofness to preserve it's dignity. > On 4/25/2008 8:45 PM jim beam spake these words of knowledge: > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > This may be the most ironic statement I have ever read. one for you dave: http://www.tfot.info/news/1094/some-people-never-learn.html >>> but now you're admitting that a warning light is as much use. >> Not at all. Gauges do warn you before things get critical, > > You are assuming one HELL of a lot here. You assume that people |
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