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Car Forum / Honda Cars / May 2008Yaris, Scion xD, Honda Fit - no water temp gauge
I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small vehicle with great gas mileage. Yaris hatchback, Scion xD, or Honda Fit would work for me. Problem is, none of them has a water temp gauge, just an "idiot light." Would you consider buying a car (brand new) that only has the water temp "idiot light", but no water temp _gauge_ ? Btw, do these "idiot lights" come on early enough to prevent major engine damage, or only after the engine has overheated to the point where the head gasket is blown? Also, the next bigger models that do have the water temp gauge would be Toyota Corolla, Matrix, or Honda Civic. But the extra purchase/ ownership cost may not even offset the possible repair costs resulting from a Yaris/Fit/xD engine overheating (which, if happens, would be several years down the road.) TIA, Bubba > I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 > miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > TIA, > Bubba If you maintain the vehicle well you should not have any cooling system problems. If a guage is that important to you you can always install an aftermarket gauge later. > If you maintain the vehicle well you should not have any cooling system > problems. If a guage is that important to you you can always install an > aftermarket gauge later. How is such an aftermarket temp gauge installed - under the hood, and how is it mounted on the dashboard/instrument panel? How much does it cost? On Apr 4, 2:10 pm, bubbabu...@yahoo.com wrote: > > If you maintain the vehicle well you should not have any cooling system > > problems. If a guage is that important to you you can always install an [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > how is it mounted on the dashboard/instrument panel? How much does it > cost? My 5 speed 2000 Civic has/had/offered no tach not even as an option (thank goodness it DOES have a temp gauge) - it would have been such a pain to install an after market (tach) I learned to do without. FYI on your civic if you buy a used cluster (I got mine from Ebay) with a tach, it is a direct swap and the tach works without any further modification. Kinda neat, frustrating at the same time. And if you want to keep your original mileage on the odometer, just swap out the center gauge cluster. I bought a US cluster for my canadian car, so I didn't want to have to worry about converting from miles to kms. It took me 10 minutes to do the swap. t >On Apr 4, 2:10 pm, bubbabu...@yahoo.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >(thank goodness it DOES have a temp gauge) - it would have been such a >pain to install an after market (tach) I learned to do without. > FYI on your civic if you buy a used cluster (I got mine from Ebay) with a > tach, it is a direct swap and the tach works without any further modification. i've done that a couple of times on my hondas. > Kinda neat, frustrating at the same time. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > It took me 10 minutes to do the swap. you can swap the speedo instrument within the cluster too. that way you keep your original mileage. within model classes, they're interchangeable. > t > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> (thank goodness it DOES have a temp gauge) - it would have been such a >> pain to install an after market (tach) I learned to do without. An idiot light might not come on soon enough to prevent engine damage. On some vehicles if you loose coolant pressure because of a leak the boiling temperature will be too low to cause the idiot light to come on. It is getting harder to find vehicles with gauges. Most cars I have owned had temperature, voltage, and oil pressure gauges. My Fusion has only a temperature gauge. > I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 > miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > TIA, > Bubba  SignatureMike Walsh > An idiot light might not come on soon enough to prevent engine damage. On > some vehicles if you loose coolant pressure because of a leak the boiling > temperature will be too low to cause the idiot light to come on. I don't believe that is true. The coolant does not have to boil for the light to come on. The temp sensor only senses the temperature of the water, it has no way to determine if it is boiling or not. What may happen with a sudden leak is the coolant level will drop low enough that the temp sensor is no longer immersed in coolant. Being the sensor is no longer in contact with the coolant it will not turn the light on until it is too late. > It is getting harder to find vehicles with gauges. Most cars I have owned > had temperature, voltage, and oil pressure gauges. My Fusion has only a > temperature >gauge. I know. I prefer gauges myself but the are getting harder to find. >> I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 >> miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> TIA, >> Bubba >> An idiot light might not come on soon enough to prevent engine >> damage. On some vehicles if you loose coolant pressure because of a [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >>> TIA, >>> Bubba An "idiot" light uses a sensor that is just a switch that flips once the design temp is exceeded. But a true temperature gauge uses a sensor that MEASURES the temp,and the gauge gives warning BEFORE the temp goes "over the top". A gauge gives you more info,and sooner. A stuck thermostat may cause your engine tempo to cycle from 'cold' to 'hot'(affecting mileage) but an idiot light will not show that unless 'hot' exceeds the sensor limit.But a gauge will show that variation,and will show an engine running hotter than usual but within tolerance,showing something has changed[a problem!],that an idiot light will ignore. (until it's too late...) Every car should have a temp gauge,not an idiot light. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net > > An idiot light might not come on soon enough to prevent engine damage. On > > some vehicles if you loose coolant pressure because of a leak the boiling [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > longer immersed in coolant. Being the sensor is no longer in contact with the > coolant it will not turn the light on until it is too late. If there is no pressure e.g. because of a loose cap the coolant can slowly boil away without the idiot light coming on. The same is true if you use only water with no antifreeze. The boiling point of water at sea level pressure is 212 degF. With 50% antifreeze and a high pressure radiator cap the boiling point will be about 270 degF. An idiot light might not come on until 240 degF. You are correct about the light not coming on if the coolant is low. I have seen engines that became so hot that the the head gasket blows and the driver swears that the idiot light never came on. SignatureMike Walsh > I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 > miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Would you consider buying a car (brand new) that only has the water > temp "idiot light", but no water temp _gauge_ ? Yes, I would. > Btw, do these "idiot lights" come on early enough to prevent major > engine damage, or only after the engine has overheated to the point > where the head gasket is blown? It's usually an "operator malfunction" for some folks not acting quick enough in response to a caution or warning light that is damaging. I've heard it said many times "I saw the light but I didn't know what it meant". I say to myself, hey, it's only money, why should you care. If they didn't know what the light meant, I would doubt a gauge would be any more meaningful to them. Sometimes to learn what a light means, they see the results of driving with the low oil pressure light on in a sixty thousand dollar car because the person (woman) did not act, they just kept driving, until it stopped. Very instructional. Hubby was not happy. Like I say, it's only money. You sound like an aware type of person, so a light instead of a gauge would be fine for you, but you could add an after market gauge if you wanted. > Also, the next bigger models that do have the water temp gauge would > be Toyota Corolla, Matrix, or Honda Civic. But the extra purchase/ > ownership cost may not even offset the possible repair costs resulting > from a Yaris/Fit/xD engine overheating (which, if happens, would be > several years down the road.) I've been driving a Corolla when I'm not in a truck since '03 and IMHO they are great cars, no problems. > TIA, > Bubba >I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 >miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small >vehicle with great gas mileage. Yaris hatchback, Scion xD, or Honda >Fit would work for me. Problem is, none of them has a water temp >gauge, just an "idiot light." None of them have oil pressure gauges either, or what a few years ago would have been considered normal instrumentation. You MAY be able to ask the dealer for a "gauge package" but the number of cars available with real gauges is slim. >Would you consider buying a car (brand new) that only has the water >temp "idiot light", but no water temp _gauge_ ? I wouldn't. But what is even WORSE are the fake gauges which you see on an increasing number of cars. They look like real gauges, but they only register three different levels. Apparently having gauges that move around too much is "confusing" for the driver. >Btw, do these "idiot lights" come on early enough to prevent major >engine damage, or only after the engine has overheated to the point >where the head gasket is blown? That depends. The basic idea is that they're supposed to come on well before the point of damage. But there's really only one way to find out. >Also, the next bigger models that do have the water temp gauge would >be Toyota Corolla, Matrix, or Honda Civic. But the extra purchase/ >ownership cost may not even offset the possible repair costs resulting >from a Yaris/Fit/xD engine overheating (which, if happens, would be >several years down the road.) You can always install aftermarket gauges. And not that although I wouldn't buy a car without gauges, I'm also a luddite who wouldn't buy most any car made today. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." <bubbabubbs@yahoo.com> ... > I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 > miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Would you consider buying a car (brand new) that only has the water > temp "idiot light", but no water temp _gauge_ ? *snip* I'll trade you the temp gauge for your tachometer! 2000 Echoes didn't have them. Natalie In article <a2844e70-1367-4514-a9e4-2bc5902651ac@n58g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, > Would you consider buying a car (brand new) that only has the water > temp "idiot light", but no water temp _gauge_ ? Sure. But if it really bothers you, it's easy to get devices that plug into the OBD-II port and give you more information about your car than you ever want to know. For example: http://www.scangauge.com/ "Elmo P. Shagnasty"... > In article > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > http://www.scangauge.com/ I agree with Elmo on this. Tomes "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in news:elmop- 5B3E3E.06302805042008@nntp2.usenetserver.com: > In article ><a2844e70-1367-4514-a9e4-2bc5902651ac@n58g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > http://www.scangauge.com/ why should you have to BUY what should be standard,that gives important information? SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net > > But if it really bothers you, it's easy to get devices that plug into > > the OBD-II port and give you more information about your car than you [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > why should you have to BUY what should be standard,that gives important > information? Define "should". ALL cars are built on compromise. This particular compromise is very small, and shouldn't make someone not want the car. That they made a decision not to include it, is immaterial. If you want the car, the $160 for a Scangauge may be easy enough to swallow to give you the car AND the feature that you want in it. >I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 >miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Would you consider buying a car (brand new) that only has the water >temp "idiot light", but no water temp _gauge_ ? Yes. On many of the cars that have gauges now the gauge is nothing more than an idiot light with a needle. The gauge is either cold, normal or hot. Same with oil pressure... It's either 0 or normal. I was told manufacturers started doing this because people would bring a car back in for warranty repair when the gauge reading was still "normal" but not exactly like it always was. >Btw, do these "idiot lights" come on early enough to prevent major >engine damage, or only after the engine has overheated to the point >where the head gasket is blown? They aren't as good as a gauge, but really who has cooling system problems anymore? The last time I had a car overheat it was because a hose blew out and in that case neither the gauge nor the idiot light detected it in time to avoid damage. Since neither was in water anymore they didn't detect the rising temp until waayyy to late. >Also, the next bigger models that do have the water temp gauge would >be Toyota Corolla, Matrix, or Honda Civic. But the extra purchase/ >ownership cost may not even offset the possible repair costs resulting >from a Yaris/Fit/xD engine overheating (which, if happens, would be >several years down the road.) I wouldn't upgrade just for that feature. Replace all the hoses every five years and don't worry about it. > >Also, the next bigger models that do have the water temp gauge would > >be Toyota Corolla, Matrix, or Honda Civic. But the extra purchase/ [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I wouldn't upgrade just for that feature. Replace all the hoses every > five years and don't worry about it. People still do that? Hoses outlast engines these days. I have had it happen twice already. >>> Also, the next bigger models that do have the water temp gauge would >>> be Toyota Corolla, Matrix, or Honda Civic. But the extra purchase/ [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > People still do that? Hoses outlast engines these days. I have had > it happen twice already. two engines??? doubtless their demise was assisted by your close attention to the highly accurate and meaningful temperature gauge. >>> Also, the next bigger models that do have the water temp gauge would >>> be Toyota Corolla, Matrix, or Honda Civic. But the extra purchase/ [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > People still do that? Hoses outlast engines these days. I have had > it happen twice already. Then you must have really crappy engines.... > I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 > miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > engine damage, or only after the engine has overheated to the point > where the head gasket is blown? depends if you stop when it first comes on or not. truth is, water gauges are an historic anachronism. if you look at the typical car's temp gauge, they don't have a linear response, it's a step function. that means that when it's in the "normal" zone, there can be considerable temperature variation and you'll never see any difference in indicator position. given that it's not really any interest when the coolant is cold, and there is no visible variability under normal operating conditions, that only leaves the "too hot" zone to be of any real interest - and there's no reason it can't be served by an indicator light. in fact, it may be a good deal more useful than a honda where if you don't happen to look down at the gauge to catch a problem in time, you can easily cook an engine. most people notice right away when a light comes on. > Also, the next bigger models that do have the water temp gauge would > be Toyota Corolla, Matrix, or Honda Civic. But the extra purchase/ [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > TIA, > Bubba >I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 >miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >TIA, >Bubba Yes, I would. I've had many vehicles with real gauges and a few of them overheated and I never noticed the gauge go up because it happened so fast (blown hose). I might have noticed an idiot light. I'd like to have both in an ideal setup. It's nice to know what's happening with water temp on a long uphill, esp if you are towing something. My 99 Mustang GT has a temp, oil and volt gauge but all are just idiot gauges. At least on the mustang you can put the Dashboard odometer into "diagnostic mode" and it will give a true digital readout of water temp. I think most idiot lights for water temp are set to go on at about 235 degrees. If everything is good in the cooling system it should not boil till it hits 260 degrees. >>I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 >>miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > temp are set to go on at about 235 degrees. If everything is good in > the cooling system it should not boil till it hits 260 degrees. I agree, I think the ideal setup would be gauges with an idiot light right inside the gauge. Unfortunately if you want something like that you have to do it yourself. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel >>>I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 >>>miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > nate Many gas gauges do that;when you get down too far,the warning light comes on. With today's modern LCD dashes,such a thing ought to be easy to implement.Have a bright LED behind the hi segments that would light when those segments are activated. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net > >>>I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 > >>>miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > implement.Have a bright LED behind the hi segments that would light when > those segments are activated. Now that I think about it I think my Porsche works like that, but I've never seen the warning lights even bulb check. My fluke says everything is working fine, so I don't know what gives. nate On Apr 6, 10:27 pm, Jim Yanik <jya...@abuse.gov> wrote: > Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net> wrote > innews:ftbr6n1273o@news3.newsguy.com: > > Ashton Crusher wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >>>Would you consider buying a car (brand new) that only has the water > >>>temp "idiot light", but no water temp _gauge_ ? Even with a proper temperature gauge, you need to consider whether the gauge is in a visible place on the dashboard. First prize for "Most Stupid Position for Temperature Gauge" has to go to the Renault 14 (probably early 1980s vintage) which placed the gauge low-down on the central console, behind the gear lever. Not a place that you will frequently check it as you look at the everyday gauges like speedometer and fuel, and warning lights such as ignition, oil pressure and handbrake. Many years ago my sister was driving my mother's Renault 14 shortly after she learned to drive and wrote off the engine because a radiator hose burst and the only warning that the engine was overheating was this insignificant gauge on an obscure part of the dashboard. > On Apr 6, 10:27 pm, Jim Yanik <jya...@abuse.gov> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > and the only warning that the engine was overheating was this insignificant > gauge on an obscure part of the dashboard. Under the hood, drill the dasboard, over the dashboard, place it on the left pillar. That's too time consuming. Just get the "Scan Gauge" and plug it into the obdII diagnostics port. Besides it being a trip computer, one of the gauges is a water temperature digital readout. D. >>I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 >>miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > temp are set to go on at about 235 degrees. If everything is good in > the cooling system it should not boil till it hits 260 degrees. OTOH,my 94 Integra GS-R had a stuck thermostat,and I noticed the temp gauge rising when I stopped and falling to 'Cold' when I was driving. I got the parts and fixed it before anything worse happened. And the last car I had with only an idiot light blew a rad hose (during a Buffalo blizzard) and left me stranded out in the middle of nowhere(Millersport Rd),except that a generous person stopped and gave me and my bud a ride ALL the why home,quite out of their way. The idiot light was useless to me. Conclusion;idiot lights are for idiots. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net >>> I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 >>> miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > Conclusion;idiot lights are for idiots. in the civic, the temp gauge pointer is calibrated to be flat line from 85C to 100C. that's a pretty broad range with zero needle movement, especially when you consider the thermostat starts opening at 78C and is fully open at 90C, and it makes any needle movement other than "hot" pretty much meaningless - "idiot light" territory. while i "like" to have a gauge myself, engineering reality is that it doesn't mean much in this situation and an idiot light would probably be a better single choice if, like me, you just happen to be distracted and don't check the gauges and end up cooking the motor one day. a light is much more noticeable. > I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 > miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small > vehicle with great gas mileage. Yaris hatchback, Scion xD, or Honda > Fit would work for me. Problem is, none of them has a water temp > gauge, just an "idiot light." Just another sign of the "drivers are stupid, they don't need to know anything" mentality of modern cars. Well, not JUST modern cars- General Motors used nothing but idiot lights on most of its cars through the 60s and 70s, but GM was the exception. Then in the 80s, Ford started using "gauges" that were controlled by pressure switches for oil pressure- so that they either read "normal" or "zero". Yeah, real helpful, but it stopped people complaining about "the oil pressure changes when I speed up!" From a driver information standpoint, the BEST setup is a gauge AND a "check gauges" light that turns on (and sometimes rings a chime) when a gauge is out of range. Its easy to overlook a gauge that's slowly creeping out of range. > Just another sign of the "drivers are stupid, they don't need to know > anything" mentality of modern cars. Do you know the refrigerant pressure in your refrigerator? No? Why not? Do you know the temperature inside your fridge? Oh, I see--you added a thermometer so you'd know. The little "1-6" dial isn't enough for you, so you added something the manufacturer didn't include. And yet you bought the fridge anyhow. >> Just another sign of the "drivers are stupid, they don't need to know >> anything" mentality of modern cars. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > so you added something the manufacturer didn't include. And yet you > bought the fridge anyhow. good analogy! Then get a Ford Focus, or some other similiar car with a gauge instead. Then call up all the makers of the cars that you didn't buy and mention that a lack of temperature gauge was why you didn't buy their car. I wouldn't buy a car without a temperature gauge, or tachometer either. That and I always add a voltmeter. > Then get a Ford Focus, or some other similiar car with a gauge > instead. Then call up all the makers of the cars that you didn't buy [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I wouldn't buy a car without a temperature gauge, or tachometer > either. That and I always add a voltmeter. that makes no logical sense because the temperature gauge is extremely non-linear. it doesn't really tell you anything other than whether the motor is in the normal range or if it's too hot. and only one of those two pieces of information is actually important. a light can do that job, probably better because you might actually pay attention! elmo's analogy is excellent because there's a lot of info about many things that any machine operator doesn't actually need to know - they only need to know if something is wrong. and this is one of those situations. > that makes no logical sense because the temperature gauge is extremely > non-linear. it doesn't really tell you anything other than whether the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > only need to know if something is wrong. and this is one of those > situations. Oh, REALLY? That's patently nonsense, and I can give you a concrete example. The whole point is that the gauge will tell you when some things are wrong that a dipshit light will not. My wife's car (1993 Chrysler LH) has an analog temperature gauge which, despite actually being routed second-hand through the engine computer, has come in very handy. That car has dual electric cooling fans, and a few years ago one fan motor failed. Because it had a GAUGE and not an idiot light, she was able to see that it was running just slightly hotter than normal (about 1/2 division, or maybe 15 degrees F) in traffic, so we opened the hood and checked things out. The one remaining fan *SOUNDED* normal, so I would have ever noticed the problem without that gauge, and my wife could have been stranded somewhere or I could have wound up with a pair of warped cylinder heads and a ruined engine if the second fan had failed also. Instead I was able to put the fan motor on order and then replace it without ever having to take the car out of service except for the actual time required to change the fan motor (about half an hour). Similarly, I've had oil pressure gauges behaving in an abnormal way warn me that the oil filter had collapsed internally and was bypassing all the time- something that an idiot light would never do. Lights are ONLY useful to call attention to a reading that's gone out of range. Gauges warn before the problem gets critical. The best of both worlds is a light that tells you to check the gauges. > Lights are ONLY useful to call attention to a reading that's gone out of > range. Gauges warn before the problem gets critical. The best of both > worlds is a light that tells you to check the gauges. <brag> My 2001 Trans Am has gauges. And a "check gauges" idiot light. And they appear to either be real gauges or very convincing software "clones" - oil pressure starts high at a cold start, varies with RPM and is lower at idle when the engine is warm. It even registers a bit higher when I run 10W30 in it vs 5W30. </brag> Of course, it didn't come with a shift light. Ray >> Lights are ONLY useful to call attention to a reading that's gone out >> of range. Gauges warn before the problem gets critical. The best of [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Ray Anyone who actually uses a shift light should stick to driving automatics.... ;-) >>> Lights are ONLY useful to call attention to a reading that's gone out >>> of range. Gauges warn before the problem gets critical. The best of [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Anyone who actually uses a shift light should stick to driving > automatics.... ;-) The purpose of the shift light is for drag racing. When the nitrous kicks in, it's important that I don't hit the factory rev limiter. (why? because the factory rev limiter works by dropping a cylinder, and if the nitrous is flowing and I don't get a spark, I'll probably end up blowing the engine sky high.) And anyone who makes a comment about shift lights and automatics probably doesn't (a) bracket race or (b) have 400+ hp on tap. :) Ray >>> Of course, it didn't come with a shift light. >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > The purpose of the shift light is for drag racing. When the nitrous > kicks in, it's important that I don't hit the factory rev limiter. Oh, you mean a REAL shift light that is clearly visible without looking down, looks like an old flashlight, has a cover for when you're not racing... not the dumb little up-arrow on the dashboard that comes on whenever Toyota thinks you should be using less fuel. > And anyone who makes a comment about shift lights and automatics > probably doesn't (a) bracket race or (b) have 400+ hp on tap. :) OR just didn't understand the kind of light you meant. <snipped> > Oh, you mean a REAL shift light that is clearly visible without looking > down, looks like an old flashlight, has a cover for when you're not > racing... not the dumb little up-arrow on the dashboard that comes on > whenever Toyota thinks you should be using less fuel. Toyota did not equip any cars with shift lights. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) > <snipped> >> Oh, you mean a REAL shift light that is clearly visible without looking [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Toyota did not equip any cars with shift lights. 80s Corollas sure had them. >> <snipped> >>> Oh, you mean a REAL shift light that is clearly visible without looking [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > 80s Corollas sure had them. My memory must be getting bad... I don't remember shift lights in any 80's Corollas, or any Toyotas, at least while I worked for Toyota. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) On Apr 22, 11:33 pm, "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote: > >> <snipped> > >>> Oh, you mean a REAL shift light that is clearly visible without looking [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > My memory must be getting bad... I don't remember shift lights in any 80's > Corollas, or any Toyotas, at least while I worked for Toyota. I don't know about your memory getting bad, because I have yet to see one either. Of course I didn't drive in the 80's, but have seen many an 80-up between working at home and being in the dealer for so long. It would be difficult to substantiate short of a well kept owner's manual or an actual model still up and running. They've been long gone from salty snowy MO for some time now. Toyota MDT in MO On Apr 22, 11:33 pm, "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote: > "Steve" <n...@spam.thanks> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > My memory must be getting bad... I don't remember shift lights in any 80's > Corollas, or any Toyotas, at least while I worked for Toyota. I don't know about your memory getting bad, because I have yet to see one either. Of course I didn't drive in the 80's, but have seen many an 80-up between working at home and being in the dealer for so long. It would be difficult to substantiate short of a well kept owner's manual or an actual model still up and running. They've been long gone from salty snowy MO for some time now. Toyota MDT in MO ********** It's good to know that my memory wasn't THAT bad! An upshift light is something that would have been pointed out in the New Car Features, and since I am not a fan of such lights, I thought I would have remembered it. The poster must have been thinking about his VW or something. Welcome back! SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >>>> Of course, it didn't come with a shift light. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > OR just didn't understand the kind of light you meant. LOL. Yeah, my truck has the "hey dummy, upshift light you're going to get an extra .25 mpg" and my TA is getting the "hey dummy, upshift because the rev limiter's gonna kick in and you're gonna blow the motor" light. (It's after I replace the shredded factory clutch.) I forget that shift lights mean different things - when I say shift light I assume the latter one. Ray > Oh, you mean a REAL shift light that is clearly visible without looking > down, looks like an old flashlight, has a cover for when you're not > racing... not the dumb little up-arrow on the dashboard that comes on > whenever Toyota thinks you should be using less fuel. (Just saw this post over a week late...) I'm sorry, but which Toyota would that be that has an annoying upshift light? Seems that's more of an 80's piece of crap domestic brand kind of thing. Toyota MDT in MO > <brag> > My 2001 Trans Am has gauges. And a "check gauges" idiot light. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Of course, it didn't come with a shift light. An interesting note to the "Godsend" GM shift light is that it was operated by the same circuit (and then slightly modified by vehicle speed rationality logic) as the torque converter lock up circuit used on automatic trans models. Sure miss *that* feature :-) Toyota MDT in MO >> <brag> >> My 2001 Trans Am has gauges. And a "check gauges" idiot light. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Toyota MDT in MO I forgot about that "shift light" - my truck has one... the upshift to save gas nag light. On my old Jimmy I just took the bulb out. On my current truck, where I like the steering wheel it just blocks it. Ray >> <brag> >> My 2001 Trans Am has gauges. And a "check gauges" idiot light. And [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Toyota MDT in MO Comboverfish! Stop hanging around in r.a.t (hey, how about that!) and come back to us!!! As for those lights, I had one in a Jetta, and got WORSE fuel economy using it! >>> <brag> >>> My 2001 Trans Am has gauges. And a "check gauges" idiot light. And [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > As for those lights, I had one in a Jetta, and got WORSE fuel economy > using it! I've got one in my Jeep. I set my steering wheel height so that I just do not see it at all. Tomes >>><brag> >>>My 2001 Trans Am has gauges. And a "check gauges" idiot light. And [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > As for those lights, I had one in a Jetta, and got WORSE fuel economy > using it! Hell... My ol' '83 Civic FE has a shift light that is controlled by tach speeds. I find it to be generally annoying.. JT >> Just another sign of the "drivers are stupid, they don't need to know >> anything" mentality of modern cars. > > Do you know the refrigerant pressure in your refrigerator? No? Why not? Because, unlike a car, a refrigerator's refrigerant system is hermetically sealed. It CANNOT leak unless its physically punctured. Refrigerators don't fail by losing refrigerant, they fail when the compressor locks up or burns out. > Do you know the temperature inside your fridge? Oh, I see--you added a > thermometer so you'd know. The little "1-6" dial isn't enough for you, > so you added something the manufacturer didn't include. And yet you > bought the fridge anyhow. That is without a doubt the STUPIDEST analogy I've ever read. And if you really see a car as equivalent to an 'appliance,' then we've really got nothing to discuss anyway. > > Do you know the refrigerant pressure in your refrigerator? No? Why not? > > Because, unlike a car, a refrigerator's refrigerant system is > hermetically sealed. It CANNOT leak unless its physically punctured. Ah, so it CAN leak. Wouldn't you want to know if that happened? The point is, something could go wrong at any time, refrigerator or car. Wouldn't you want a gauge showing you at a moment's notice as the refrigerant is slowly leaking out, so that you don't end up with a warm fridge and spoiled food? of COURSE that's abnormal. But then, so is the car overheating. > The point is, something could go wrong at any time, refrigerator or car. > Wouldn't you want a gauge showing you at a moment's notice as the > refrigerant is slowly leaking out, so that you don't end up with a warm > fridge and spoiled food? Unless most of the leaks ended up being at the gauge. >>> Do you know the refrigerant pressure in your refrigerator? No? Why not? >> Because, unlike a car, a refrigerator's refrigerant system is >> hermetically sealed. It CANNOT leak unless its physically punctured. > > Ah, so it CAN leak. Wouldn't you want to know if that happened? The probability of a rock flying into the condesor coils underneath my fridge and causing a leak is astronomically low. The odds of a rock nicking a tube in my radiator is not nearly as low (lower if the car has A/C because the condensor would take the hit first....). Also there are about 4 to 9 pressurized rubber hoses and 8 to 18 hose clamps all waiting to leak on a car cooling system, not to mention fans that can fail, thermostats that get sticky, and radiator caps that quit holding pressure, etc. etc. And that's just the SUBTLE failures that will first show up by mild overheating, not the disasters like a burst hose or blown head gasket. > The point is, something could go wrong at any time, refrigerator or car. > Wouldn't you want a gauge showing you at a moment's notice as the > refrigerant is slowly leaking out, so that you don't end up with a warm > fridge and spoiled food? > > of COURSE that's abnormal. But then, so is the car overheating. A fridge failing is FAR more abnormal (and less expensive when it does happen) than a car running hot. > > Ah, so it CAN leak. Wouldn't you want to know if that happened? > > The probability of a rock flying into the condesor coils underneath my > fridge and causing a leak is astronomically low. True. But the probability of your $900 fridge being a cheap piece of Chinese junk and leaking coolant and ruining the food in your fridge is MUCH greater today than it ever has been. Hence, it would be prudent to protect your food investment, if nothing else, by using such a gauge. > Also there are > about 4 to 9 pressurized rubber hoses and 8 to 18 hose clamps all [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > show up by mild overheating, not the disasters like a burst hose or > blown head gasket. And modern refrigerators are Chinese junk made for the sole purpose of making the manufacturer money by appearing JUST ENOUGH to be an actual fridge. The details are different from the car, but the risk of failure is just as great. >>> Ah, so it CAN leak. Wouldn't you want to know if that happened? >> The probability of a rock flying into the condesor coils underneath my [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Hence, it would be prudent to protect your food investment, if nothing > else, by using such a gauge. Its more important to buy a good fridge, not a piece of crap from made in China. All it takes is a little awareness on the buyer's part. And the ability to read the data plate... but maybe literacy IS too much to ask these days. > > Do you know the temperature inside your fridge? Oh, I see--you added a > > thermometer so you'd know. The little "1-6" dial isn't enough for you, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > And if you really see a car as equivalent to an 'appliance,' then we've > really got nothing to discuss anyway. You really don't understand how the world works, do you. Yes, the car is an appliance--for 99.9% of the people out there. Yet you, somehow, think that your desire to have a temp gauge that behaves the way you want it means that it's a necessity. >>> Do you know the temperature inside your fridge? Oh, I see--you added a >>> thermometer so you'd know. The little "1-6" dial isn't enough for you, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > You really don't understand how the world works, do you. Yes, I do. The manufacturers build for the majority of nitwits. I just don't necessarily LIKE the way the world works.... > Yes, the car is an appliance--for 99.9% of the people out there. Yet > you, somehow, think that your desire to have a temp gauge that behaves > the way you want it means that it's a necessity. Actually, >>I<< never said that it would stop me from buying a car at all. Its trivial to add a gauge if its important to you (and it SHOULD be, but I digress again.) On the other hand, when I see that a manufacturer took the time to put in a gauge, it makes me think hjust a little more highly of the competence of the engineers who stood their ground against the air-headed right-brain type stylists, marketing lizards, and bean-counters. >>>> Do you know the temperature inside your fridge? Oh, I see--you >>>> added a thermometer so you'd know. The little "1-6" dial isn't [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > ground against the air-headed right-brain type stylists, marketing > lizards, and bean-counters. no dude, it's the other way around. the engineers doctor the gauge so it only tells you two things - normal and too hot, and only one of those is important. left to their own devices, they'd leave the waste of space out. it's the marketing lizards that insist on a gauge because people like you think they need one and get all amped up about a subject they haven't bothered to analyze or don't understand. even when given the facts. > no dude, it's the other way around. the engineers doctor the gauge so > it only tells you two things - normal and too hot, and only one of those > is important. That's simply not true. The HISTORY of the situation is that engineers installed gauges for years. Then came idiot lights because designers and stylists liked the "modern, all-electric" look of the dashboards they could create. Then gauges made a comeback. THEN, the automakers started getting complaints from people who'd grown up on idiot lights, and didn't understand normal behavior, most particularly of the oil pressure. THAT is when the "dummy" gauges that read mid-scale or nothing at all appeared. > left to their own devices, they'd leave the waste of > space out. Engineers NEVER leave instrumentation out of ANYTHING if left to their own devices. Left to their own devices they'd install an oil pressure gauge before the filter, one after, and one at the last feed off the oil galley. You'd have a water temp gauge before and after the radiator, a transmission oil temperature gauge before and after the cooler, and 8 individual exhaust gas temperature probes. >it's the marketing lizards that insist on a gauge because > people like you think they need one and get all amped up about a subject > they haven't bothered to analyze or don't understand. even when given > the facts. He says, as if he'd know a fact if it jumped up and bit his a.s.... > Engineers NEVER leave instrumentation out of ANYTHING if > left to their own devices. Left to their own devices [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > after the cooler, and 8 individual exhaust gas temperature > probes. This would fail to solve the first engineering problem, which is have a good car of xyz dimensions. You can't get everything in without trading off something else that is important to the engineering. It's also false that engineers do not make economic decisions. In this instance, more gages = more manufacturing costs = less than optimal sales and profit. >> Engineers NEVER leave instrumentation out of ANYTHING if >> left to their own devices. Left to their own devices [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > = more manufacturing costs = less than optimal sales and > profit. As a working engineer, I realize that. I might have exaggerated a bit, but in general powertrain engineers would argue that electric seat warmers be omitted to meet weight and cost before they would leave out instrumentation. Certainly very few powertrain engineers would want to leave something so basic as a temperature gauge and oil pressure gauge out of their own car. > Elle wrote: >>> Engineers NEVER leave instrumentation out of ANYTHING if [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > weight and cost before they would leave out > instrumentation. Me being a retired engineer specialized in power plants, it depends on the instrumentation. (Call that a nitpick; I am betting you know this.) A prime example is the tachometer. Many automatic transmission cars have one. It could be argued to be superfluous for auto trannies and manual trannies. I suppose it is in auto tranny cars because it helps sell the car, though. > Certainly very few powertrain engineers would want to > leave something so basic as a temperature gauge and oil > pressure gauge out of their own car. I do not think anyone here disputes that some sort of gage or idiot light--one or the other, at least--for coolant temperature and oil pressure is a very good idea. We're talking about automotive design and how systems integrate (e.g. when it comes to using space; offering safety to the passengers; etc.). A contingent of engineers will be focused on passenger comfort, and with the marketing department, they will run the numbers and find that the seat warmers sell X amount of cars at Y price, so they need to make it work for Z dollars a car. Related aside: Laypeople of course can discuss this topic intelligently, because this is about tradeoffs. Many of these tradeoffs are understandable simply with the application of common sense. >> Elle wrote: >>>> Engineers NEVER leave instrumentation out of ANYTHING if [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > trannies. I suppose it is in auto tranny cars because it > helps sell the car, though. Not only that, but it is helpful, because one is able to determine what gear a car is in by comparing the vehicle speed with the engine speed. Plus, if one has a manual transmission, if the engine speeds seem to creep up when going uphill, but the road speed stays constant, this suggests that there is a problem with the clutch (and soon, your bank account is going to take a hit). >> Certainly very few powertrain engineers would want to >> leave something so basic as a temperature gauge and oil [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > sell X amount of cars at Y price, so they need to make it > work for Z dollars a car. Actually, good engineering means reducing the number of gauges. Imagine if every operation on your computer required a gauge. You'd have one for your disk drives, ethernet card, wireless card, one for each of your USB drives, for the temperature, a bunch for different keyboard settings, for your floppy diskdrive (older machine only), your fire wire, for the state of the batteries, your video port, the audio I/O, etc. Your computer would have more gauges than a nuclear power plant (and Bush wouldn't be able to say it, either). > Related aside: Laypeople of course can discuss this topic > intelligently, because this is about tradeoffs. Many of > these tradeoffs are understandable simply with the > application of common sense. What about priests and other clergy members? Should they be able to understand it? There is some good info about how engines work on the internet (How stuff works has a lot). Plus, there is this neat building(s) in most towns called "a library" where they have books on the subject. And if you're in school, you can ask your science teacher, too. jeff > Actually, good engineering means reducing the number of > gauges. The meaning of "good engineering" depends on the goals of what is being engineered. E.g. for a vehicle where engineers and technicians are trying to improve XYZ, additional gages ABC may be warranted, at least temporarily. >> Actually, good engineering means reducing the number of >> gauges. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and technicians are trying to improve XYZ, additional gages > ABC may be warranted, at least temporarily. but in this day and age, you'd just record the computer's data output. it's a host of feeds available, engine temp being just one of them. in real time. > Actually, good engineering means reducing the number of gauges. Imagine > if every operation on your computer required a gauge. You'd have one for > your disk drives, ethernet card, wireless card, one for each of your USB > drives, for the temperature, a bunch for different keyboard settings, > for your floppy diskdrive (older machine only), your fire wire, for the > state of the batteries, your video port, the audio I/O, etc. Of course, you CAN call up programs that do monitor and put a "gauge" on all of those items. Right now I have a CPU utilization bar graph in the lower corner of my screen. I can switch it to network I/O, disk I/O, or disk space used if I want. Good engineering really means making the RIGHT information available at the RIGHT time. With a car, the critical things that need to be displayed are fairly simple: Engine temperature, oil pressure, speed, and fuel remaining are the big 4. The best designs, as I have said, make all 4 available as analog readouts, and ALSO will turn on an attention-getting light and/or ring a chime if any of them (except speed) get out of the normal range. That's been done for decades (my wife's 1993 car being so equipped) so its just DUMB to regress. The point I've been belaboring is that to reduce oil pressure and water temperature to ONLY a warning light is actually denying the driver information that he/she might occasionally want or need, and which can be valuable. Certainly the average driver doesn't need to know the exhaust gas temperature and oxygen content, but with only 4 basic readouts really NEEDED, why deny any one of them? It would be a different matter if there were 10 parameters equal in importance to oil pressure and coolant temp and designers would have to start making decisions about what needs to be primary and what could be secondary, but there just AREN'T!! >> Elle wrote: >>>> Engineers NEVER leave instrumentation out of ANYTHING if [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > trannies. I suppose it is in auto tranny cars because it > helps sell the car, though. And even though its mostly window dressing, it does come in handy even in an automatic car to indicate if the transmission starts slipping, TC clutch fails to lock, etc. But yeah, 99.999% of the life of the car, a tach in an automatic is worthless and a prime example of something that's there ONLY for marketing. >> Certainly very few powertrain engineers would want to >> leave something so basic as a temperature gauge and oil [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > sell X amount of cars at Y price, so they need to make it > work for Z dollars a car. Agreed. Sad though the result may often be.... >> no dude, it's the other way around. the engineers doctor the gauge so >> it only tells you two things - normal and too hot, and only one of [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Engineers NEVER leave instrumentation out of ANYTHING if left to their > own devices. if for their own testing, no. but engineers make stuff to be used by people that don't know what they're doing. like you. > Left to their own devices they'd install an oil pressure > gauge before the filter, one after, and one at the last feed off the oil > galley. You'd have a water temp gauge before and after the radiator, a > transmission oil temperature gauge before and after the cooler, and 8 > individual exhaust gas temperature probes. so you think an "engineer" is going to put a 747 flight deck instrumentation cluster into my grandmothers lincoln and expect her to learn to use it???? engineers aren't stupid. >> it's the marketing lizards that insist on a gauge because people like >> you think they need one and get all amped up about a subject they >> haven't bothered to analyze or don't understand. even when given the >> facts. > > He says, as if he'd know a fact if it jumped up and bit his a.s.... says the guy that thinks a dummy water temp meter is giving him useful information!!! >> He says, as if he'd know a fact if it jumped up and bit his a.s.... > > says the guy that thinks a dummy water temp meter is giving him useful > information!!! Stop drinking your name-sake while posting and you might understand more. A major component of my WHOLE ARGUMENT in this thread has been that DUMMY gauges are just idiot lights with pointers and are therefore as useless as an idiot light. How could you POSSIBLY have missed that, other than deliberately doing so just to pick an argument? >>> He says, as if he'd know a fact if it jumped up and bit his a.s.... >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > useless as an idiot light. How could you POSSIBLY have missed that, > other than deliberately doing so just to pick an argument? so why were /you/ making such a big noise about wanting a gauge? quote: "Gauges warn before the problem gets critical." "The whole point is that the gauge will tell you when some things are wrong" but now you're admitting that a warning light is as much use. quote: "gauges are just idiot lights with pointers" so you're contradicting yourself and arguing for nothing! bottom line: if you want full instrumentation, install it yourself. the stuff you get with the car is good enough for the job it has to do. any /real/ engineer should know that. On 4/22/2008 9:13 PM jim beam spake these words of knowledge: >>>> He says, as if he'd know a fact if it jumped up and bit his a.s.... >>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > so you're contradicting yourself and arguing for nothing! He was clearly talking about the use of actual working gauges, specifically as opposed to those which are dressed-up idiot lights. RFT!!! Dave Kelsen SignatureA library is an arsenal of liberty. >>>> He says, as if he'd know a fact if it jumped up and bit his a.s.... >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > so why were /you/ making such a big noise about wanting a gauge? Because /not/ wanting one is just stupid. Sure, there are reasons for el-cheapo line cars not to have a gauge, and that's fine. But for any driver to say "I'd rather have a light" is just flat dumb. No way around that. What really gets me is the idiot gauge- costs MORE than a light, but is less useful (because it doesn't attract attention, and worse yet may even give the unwitting driver the impression that its a real gauge. > quote: > "Gauges warn before the problem gets critical." [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > but now you're admitting that a warning light is as much use. Not at all. Gauges do warn you before things get critical, and you blatantly left out the obvious part of the second statement, which is that a gauge will tell you when some things are wrong WHICH A LIGHT WON'T TELL YOU. Hence my examples of 1) a dead electric fan which was indicated as a slightly abnormal gauge reading but which was not far enough out of range to have turned on a light, and 2) abnormal oil pressure behavior which indicated a collapsed filter causing the bypass valve to open, but was technically within the "normal" range and never turned on the idiot light. > quote: > "gauges are just idiot lights with pointers" No, I never said that YOU read it that way, but its not what I said. I said that "idiot" gauges (the kind that are just controlled by a switch which either sets them to the normal range, or drops them to zero) are just idiot lights with pointers. I never said that real analog gauges, whether mechanical or electric, are idiot lights with pointers. > so you're contradicting yourself and arguing for nothing! No, you're just showing the fact that you aren't actually reading (or comprehending) posts, you're reading a few words then shooting off your message while missing the main points. As has been the case every time you blunder into rec.autos.tech. > > so why were /you/ making such a big noise about wanting a gauge? > > Because /not/ wanting one is just stupid. In your narrow world. In the real world, plainly, things are way different. > > but now you're admitting that a warning light is as much use. > > Not at all. Gauges do warn you before things get critical, You are assuming one HELL of a lot here. You assume that people know how the machinery works in the first place. That's a strong presumption. Without the operator knowing how the machine works in the first place, a gauge is absolutely useless. See, your mind is in a very, very narrow place. YOU wanted to know how the thing works, so YOU found out. Others don't know, don't want to know, and in many cases can't understand it even if they try. A gauge is useless to those people. The world where all you need to know is that "gauges warn you before things get critical" is Springfield, and Homer Simpson runs the nuclear power plant equipment. >> > but now you're admitting that a warning light is as much use. >> >> Not at all. Gauges do warn you before things get critical, > >You are assuming one HELL of a lot here. You assume that people know >how the machinery works in the first place. That's a strong presumption. No, not really. I remember in driver's ed, a few decades ago, the instructor explaining to us that every few minutes you should move your eyes over the instrument panel and look at the gauges and see that they are all more or less nominal. If anything is in the red, pull over and call for help. If you notice it moving toward the red, get ready to pull over and call for help. >Without the operator knowing how the machine works in the first place, a >gauge is absolutely useless. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >know, and in many cases can't understand it even if they try. A gauge >is useless to those people. No, they still have eyes. Now, it's true that there are people who do not do the periodic glance over the instrument panel and notice where everything is, every few minutes. That is bad, but it's an easy skill to learn. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > No, not really. I remember in driver's ed, a few decades ago, the > instructor explaining to us that every few minutes you should move > your eyes over the instrument panel and look at the gauges and see that > they are all more or less nominal. If anything is in the red, pull over > and call for help. If you notice it moving toward the red, get ready to > pull over and call for help. I remember them teaching us to always use turn signals... You can lead a horse to water, (you can even shove it's head down in the water,) but you can't make it drink. SignatureNick > >> Not at all. Gauges do warn you before things get critical, > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > and call for help. If you notice it moving toward the red, get ready to > pull over and call for help. If all you're looking for is "in the red, pull over" then a dash light does a MUCH better job of alerting you. That's simple psychology. Unless you know the principles of operation of the whole machine, the gauge will indicate nothing to you. It may be behaving perfectly normal within its own context, but if you don't know the context then you don't understand its behavior. If the needle wiggles around up and down, the guy who has no idea what the gauge is for will worry. Hence the "idiot light driven gauges". And if all you end up with are "idiot light driven gauges," then just put in idiot lights. You save money, and you get a better alert. > Unless you know the principles of operation of the whole machine, the > gauge will indicate nothing to you. Not true at all for something as simple as oil pressure and water temperature! This isn't rocket science. > It may be behaving perfectly normal > within its own context, but if you don't know the context then you don't > understand its behavior. And my grandparents and great-grandparents, some of whom never completed high school (and at least one grandmother CERTAINLY didn't "understand the operation of the whole machine") read analog temperature and oil pressure gauges perfectly well. Never melted down an engine, never took it in to the mechanic unnecessarily either. Are you telling me that driving-age people of 2008 are simply too stupid to do such a simple task? >> Unless you know the principles of operation of the whole machine, the >> gauge will indicate nothing to you. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > it in to the mechanic unnecessarily either. Are you telling me that > driving-age people of 2008 are simply too stupid to do such a simple task? i think he's telling you that some people are too stupid to understand that a typical gauge doesn't tell people much. and in some rare cases, some individuals can't be told anything, no matter how hard it's dumbed down. On 4/25/2008 8:45 PM jim beam spake these words of knowledge: >>> Unless you know the principles of operation of the whole machine, the >>> gauge will indicate nothing to you. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > some individuals can't be told anything, no matter how hard it's dumbed > down. This may be the most ironic statement I have ever read. RFT!!! Dave Kelsen SignatureMediocrity requires aloofness to preserve it's dignity. > On 4/25/2008 8:45 PM jim beam spake these words of knowledge: > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > This may be the most ironic statement I have ever read. one for you dave: http://www.tfot.info/news/1094/some-people-never-learn.html >>> but now you're admitting that a warning light is as much use. >> Not at all. Gauges do warn you before things get critical, > > You are assuming one HELL of a lot here. You assume that people know > how the machinery works in the first place. That's a strong presumption. A minority, but fairly large, percentage of car buyers are enthusiasts that understand how things work. > Without the operator knowing how the machine works in the first place, a > gauge is absolutely useless. My wife doesn't have a clue how things work. She still told me, "the temperature gauge on my car is going about a half-division higher than it used to when I'm at a light, do you think something might be wrong?" That's when I found the dead fan motor. That would have never... NEVER... happened with a light or an "idiot" gauge that snaps to its normal range or to 'overheat'. The gauge in her car is entirely modern- its digitally driven by the body control module based on a feed from the powertrain control module, which gets the information from the analog sensor... HOWEVER, it moves linearly and accurately with temperature inside the normal operating range and a bit to either side, so you can very clearly see small changes. Its the best of both worlds. > See, your mind is in a very, very narrow place. Not as narrow as yours, apparently. You're the one that wants to force every driver to the lowest common denominator of instrumentation. > YOU wanted to know how > the thing works, so YOU found out. Others don't know, don't want to > know, and in many cases can't understand it even if they try. A gauge > is useless to those people. Its also harmless to them. Better yet, after watching a gauge a while, they'll learn what it means just like my wife did. > > You are assuming one HELL of a lot here. You assume that people know > > how the machinery works in the first place. That's a strong presumption. > > A minority, but fairly large, percentage of car buyers are enthusiasts > that understand how things work. And they are not the audience the carmakers want. >>> You are assuming one HELL of a lot here. You assume that people know >>> how the machinery works in the first place. That's a strong presumption. >> A minority, but fairly large, percentage of car buyers are enthusiasts >> that understand how things work. > > And they are not the audience the carmakers want. nah - there's a HUGE difference between those that /think/ they know and those that /actually/ do. i know that from having been on both sides of the vehicle fence - pure engineering and technician. even if you gave an "enthusiast" a "real" temp gauge, what are you going to do with the information? i know a thing or two about vehicle design, but unless i had a specific usage/conditions map for my vehicle, i wouldn't be able to "use" the readout. and even if i did, it /still/ wouldn't mean anything substantive to operation unless it was over spec! > nah - there's a HUGE difference between those that /think/ they know and > those that /actually/ do. i know that from having been on both sides of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > to "use" the readout. and even if i did, it /still/ wouldn't mean > anything substantive to operation unless it was over spec! God you're dumb. I've already given you two instances, one by a COMPLETE NON-TECHNICAL driver (my wife) where a gauge saved an engine. And in the other case where I (an engineer) was able to detect a failed filter by abnormal (but still technically in-spec) pressure behavior. Debate over, proof presented, no question remaining. >> nah - there's a HUGE difference between those that /think/ they know >> and those that /actually/ do. i know that from having been on both [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Debate over, proof presented, no question remaining. Weird. Here it seems like you're supporting the argument I've been making all along. and then in another post, you write: > Brent P wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Weep, Earth. These are the leaders of your future. I'm so confused. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel > And in the other case where I (an engineer) was able to detect a failed > filter by abnormal (but still technically in-spec) pressure behavior. And you expect that the car buying and car using public at large--who are not engineers, and who can barely find their way to the bathroom--would benefit from such a gauge. Would buy such a gauge. You're an ignorant a.shole. That's all there is to it. You show it every time you open your mouth. >> nah - there's a HUGE difference between those that /think/ they know >> and those that /actually/ do. i know that from having been on both [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I've already given you two instances, one by a COMPLETE NON-TECHNICAL > driver (my wife) where a gauge saved an engine. and the so-called "idiot light" would have served exactly the same purpose! > And in the other case where I (an engineer) was able to detect a failed > filter by abnormal (but still technically in-spec) pressure behavior. so you say. but if you'd used a decent filter in the first place, with the correct change interval, that wouldn't be an issue. > Debate over, proof presented, no question remaining. what kind of "engineer" are you? we used to have some guys run about our place only barely smarter than the 10lb hammers they carried - they called themselves "engineers" too. >> I've already given you two instances, one by a COMPLETE NON-TECHNICAL >> driver (my wife) where a gauge saved an engine. > > and the so-called "idiot light" would have served exactly the same purpose! Good God! Do I have to explain it AGAIN????? The temperature was STILL WITHIN THE NORMAL RANGE. It would NOT have turned on an idiot light. The key was that it was creeping higher than USUAL in certain situations. No idiot light would EVER have indicated that, but a gauge does. Can you not understand that? Do you REALLY not comprehend something so BLINDINGLY SIMPLE?!?!? A simple analogy would be the same as saying, "you don't need a gas gauge, just depend on the low fuel warning light. It would have served the same purpose." >> And in the other case where I (an engineer) was able to detect a >> failed filter by abnormal (but still technically in-spec) pressure >> behavior. > > so you say. but if you'd used a decent filter in the first place, with > the correct change interval, that wouldn't be an issue. How do you debate with stupidity that thick? If you really can't understand that ALL manufactured items, regardless of the manufacturer, are subject to the vagaries of manufacturing processes, then you're beyond hope. >>> You are assuming one HELL of a lot here. You assume that people know >>> how the machinery works in the first place. That's a strong presumption. >> A minority, but fairly large, percentage of car buyers are enthusiasts >> that understand how things work. > > And they are not the audience the carmakers want. Why not? Why do the auto makers care how enthusiastic people are about cars? Jeff >>> You are assuming one HELL of a lot here. You assume that people know >>> how the machinery works in the first place. That's a strong presumption. >> A minority, but fairly large, percentage of car buyers are enthusiasts >> that understand how things work. > > And they are not the audience the carmakers want. Incorrect. They want knowledgeable people to recommend their vehicles to their friends, neighbors and family members. Jeff >>>> You are assuming one HELL of a lot here. You assume that people >>>> know how the machinery works in the first place. That's a strong [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Incorrect. They want knowledgeable people to recommend their vehicles to > their friends, neighbors and family members. so by looking at the "temperature gauge", you can assess the vehicle's performance and reliability and thus offer a sales endorsement? dude, you're priceless! keep it rolling - this is great! homer simpson builds the canyonero! >>>>> You are assuming one HELL of a lot here. You assume that people >>>>> know how the machinery works in the first place. That's a strong [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > you're priceless! keep it rolling - this is great! homer simpson > builds the canyonero! Actually, yes you can. e.g. if the temp. creeps up at a stoplight in warm weather, even if it never overheats, it's a fair bet that there's a failure in the cooling fan controls or else the cooling system is partially plugged with rust, scale, or overenthusiastic application of "stop leak" products. You can't get that kind of info from an idiot light. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel >>>>>> You are assuming one HELL of a lot here. You assume that people >>>>>> know how the machinery works in the first place. That's a strong [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > nate how far do you want to take this? you can go hog wild and measure the working temperature of each piston, each bearing and each exhaust valve if you really want, and you can justify it in terms of "predicting more serious problems". but the reality is, on a properly maintained system, this is a zero issue. and it's only vaguely useful on improperly maintained ones - just like you describe - because by then, it's usually too late. it's totally not unreasonable for a manufacturer to assume half-way competent standards of maintenance. if those standards are not kept, and you describe them perfectly, then i think a manufacturer is perfectly entitled to abandon the vehicle [and its instrumentation] to its fate. > > Actually, yes you can. e.g. if the temp. creeps up at a stoplight in > > warm weather, even if it never overheats, it's a fair bet that there's a [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > if you really want, and you can justify it in terms of "predicting more > serious problems". That's what Steve and his narrow-minded people want. They don't understand the REAL world in which the typical car buyer lives. >>> Actually, yes you can. e.g. if the temp. creeps up at a stoplight in >>> warm weather, even if it never overheats, it's a fair bet that there's a [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > That's what Steve and his narrow-minded people want. They don't > understand the REAL world in which the typical car buyer lives. doesn't understand the world in which anyone lives. once the machine is tested and out the door, the detailed instrumentation is done. i have absolutely no desire to know my exhaust valve temperatures because i know that they can operate for over 1000 hours, at the highest temperature the engine can produce, with 99.9999% probability that they will remain within spec. any "engineer" or "enthusiast" that /thinks/ they need to monitor this situation beyond that is either didn't do their homework, is not confident of their own abilities or /knows/ they didn't do something right in testing or production. >>>Actually, yes you can. e.g. if the temp. creeps up at a stoplight in >>>warm weather, even if it never overheats, it's a fair bet that there's a [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > That's what Steve and his narrow-minded people want. They don't > understand the REAL world in which the typical car buyer lives. I guess I'm not typical then, as since I purchased my old F-150 I've added a REAL oil pressure gauge (thanks Ford!) a dash cluster with tach, a transmission temp. gauge, and a vacuum gauge. (the last was somewhat extraneous, but I had a hole to fill.) Personally I consider at least a water temp. gauge and oil pressure gauge a must; oil temp., trans temp (if automatic) tach and vacuum are nice options. The oil pressure gauge has given me great piece of mind with the Ford, as it consistently makes a noise that sounds precisely like worn rod bearings. However, the oil pressure is rock solid stable, even when lugging the engine (and that happens a lot, being the 4.9 I-6) therefore I can only assume that it is either piston slap, an exhaust leak, or something equally benign. You simply can't get that kind of confirmation/denial of a theory as to "what's wrong" from an idiot light. A gauge is a hell of a lot cheaper than an exploratory teardown (which would probably turn into a rebuild, "while you're in there.") nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel > > That's what Steve and his narrow-minded people want. They don't > > understand the REAL world in which the typical car buyer lives. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > a transmission temp. gauge, and a vacuum gauge. (the last was somewhat > extraneous, but I had a hole to fill.) You "guess" you're not typical? Have you ever spent ANY time in a car dealership, even just watching what goes on? >>>That's what Steve and his narrow-minded people want. They don't >>>understand the REAL world in which the typical car buyer lives. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Have you ever spent ANY time in a car dealership, even just watching > what goes on? Not counting the brief period of time that I actually owned a new car ('02 GTI) the last time I was in a car dealership was at Livonia VW in Michigan, when my old GTI stopped running a couple blocks away. It did not end well; read about it here: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled/browse_frm/thread /32d9a1b5ac292573/00a39ad8e03c2a32?hl=en&lnk=st&q=livonia+VW+nate#00a39ad8e03c2a 32 So no, I don't patronize car dealerships that often. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel > >>I guess I'm not typical then, as since I purchased my old F-150 I've > >>added a REAL oil pressure gauge (thanks Ford!) a dash cluster with tach, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > So no, I don't patronize car dealerships that often. My advice to you would be to go and kick tires for a few hours at the local Ford dealership on a sales weekend, to see what (a) customers are like, and (b) the red meat eating sales staff is like. Gauges are meaningless. >>>>I guess I'm not typical then, as since I purchased my old F-150 I've >>>>added a REAL oil pressure gauge (thanks Ford!) a dash cluster with tach, [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Gauges are meaningless. Why in the name of all that is good and holy would you want me to do that? I already loathe most of the human race enough after simply commuting to work. I don't need to get any snarkier. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel >I guess I'm not typical then, as since I purchased my old F-150 I've >added a REAL oil pressure gauge (thanks Ford!) The reason ford uses the binary status as a gauge is, as I heard it (and believe it because of my experience in product development), is that on earlier vehicles it was a real gauge but people didn't understand how oil pressure varies and were racking up warranty costs thinking there was a problem. It's a classic reaction of a US corporation to just dumb it down rather than to arrive at solution that would let the real gauge stay. I doubt there is any savings in the sender differences. >>I guess I'm not typical then, as since I purchased my old F-150 I've >>added a REAL oil pressure gauge (thanks Ford!) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > it down rather than to arrive at solution that would let the real gauge > stay. I doubt there is any savings in the sender differences. I'm sure you're right. I can at least confirm that the earlier trucks used a real gauge. Supposedly you can make the later dash gauges work by using a real gauge sender and bypassing a resistor on the back of the gauge panel, and I tried that, but I still didn't trust the gauge. the readings would vary for random reasons, and even worse, the readings would dip fairly reliably while accelerating, making me think that I had a bearing issue. A mechanical gauge confirmed that the whole dash gauge setup was just a flaky mess however. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel > >I guess I'm not typical then, as since I purchased my old F-150 I've > >added a REAL oil pressure gauge (thanks Ford!) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > oil pressure varies and were racking up warranty costs thinking there > was a problem. Exactly. But Nate seems to think that the same dumbasses whom he ADMITS can't halfway maintain their cars, can suddenly see the gauges and know what to think about them. >>>I guess I'm not typical then, as since I purchased my old F-150 I've >>>added a REAL oil pressure gauge (thanks Ford!) [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > halfway maintain their cars, can suddenly see the gauges and know what > to think about them. No, I didn't say that. What I said was, that given a choice between only an idiot light and either a gauge or a gauge combined with an idiot light, the latter two are infinitely preferable. Even people utterly ignorant of the inner workings of a vehicle are able to tell when something doesn't act the way it used to, even if they don't completely understand what it means. Plus, for those of us who *do* know how to read them and can make some use of the info, equipping a car with only an idiot light is insulting. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel > > But Nate seems to think that the same dumbasses whom he ADMITS can't > > halfway maintain their cars, can suddenly see the gauges and know what [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > something doesn't act the way it used to, even if they don't completely > understand what it means. These are the same people who can't halfway decently maintain their cars? Remember, to them the car goes downhill gradually--and many abnormal things don't become cause for concern, because they didn't come about abnormally and/or quickly. So there's the normal aging of the car, then there's the "something broke all of a sudden" part of the car. > What I said was, that given a choice between >only an idiot light and either a gauge or a gauge combined with an idiot >light, the latter two are infinitely preferable. I would prefer gauges and lights. Better yet, I would like to be able to set when the light activated. >> >I guess I'm not typical then, as since I purchased my old F-150 I've >> >added a REAL oil pressure gauge (thanks Ford!) [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >halfway maintain their cars, can suddenly see the gauges and know what >to think about them. Funny, having read Nate's posts for years I would say you're dead wrong. >> But Nate seems to think that the same dumbasses whom he ADMITS can't >> halfway maintain their cars, can suddenly see the gauges and know what >> to think about them. > > Funny, having read Nate's posts for years I would say you're dead wrong. Of course he is dead wrong. About pretty much everything. These dipsticks that got on Daddy's computer come bombing into a newsgroup where (Lloyd notwithstanding...) we've all had pretty informative, intelligent, and rational conversations for years... and presume to tell us that we don't have a clue. Weep, Earth. These are the leaders of your future. > >> But Nate seems to think that the same dumbasses whom he ADMITS can't > >> halfway maintain their cars, can suddenly see the gauges and know what [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > intelligent, and rational conversations for years... and presume to tell > us that we don't have a clue. But Nate says people are dumbasses who can't halfway maintain their cars. Now he says those same dumbasses can suddenly understand and use gauges? Nate's the dumbass. >>>>But Nate seems to think that the same dumbasses whom he ADMITS can't >>>>halfway maintain their cars, can suddenly see the gauges and know what [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Now he says those same dumbasses can suddenly understand and use gauges? Maybe if they were expected to understand what those gauges mean, they'd start to understand the necessity of regular oil changes, coolant flushes, etc? > Nate's the dumbass. Why, because I insist on proper gauges in my own cars and won't let anyone near them that doesn't at least know enough to check for out of range or anomalous gauge readings? That seems like simple common sense to me. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel > > Nate's the dumbass. > > Why, because I insist on proper gauges in my own cars and won't let > anyone near them that doesn't at least know enough to check for out of > range or anomalous gauge readings? That seems like simple common sense > to me. No--insisting that cars be built with such gauges is idiotic. >>>Nate's the dumbass. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > No--insisting that cars be built with such gauges is idiotic. I'm not insisting that they be built with them. I'm just stating that they'd better be damn appealing - more so than most new cars - if the manufacturer expects me to buy them, and then go to the time and expense of mounting gauges in a brand new car. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel > > No--insisting that cars be built with such gauges is idiotic. > > I'm not insisting that they be built with them. I'm just stating that > they'd better be damn appealing - more so than most new cars - if the > manufacturer expects me to buy them But since you are one of three people who cares like this, the real world says manufacturers wouldn't care about you and your wants even if they knew about you. I'm talking real world here. >>>No--insisting that cars be built with such gauges is idiotic. >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I'm talking real world here. Odd, then, that the two cars that I own came with all the basic instrumentation, with calibrated scales even, straight off the assembly line. Seems like you meant to say "GM, Ford, and Honda don't care about me and my wants." I realized that a long time ago (for many reasons, of which the "idiot panel" is only one small one,) which is why I don't really care about their cars, with the possible exception of the 'vette and the S2000 which I would assume actually come with proper instrumentation. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel > > But since you are one of three people who cares like this, the real > > world says manufacturers wouldn't care about you and your wants even if [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > line. Seems like you meant to say "GM, Ford, and Honda don't care about > me and my wants." BMW doesn't, either. >>> No--insisting that cars be built with such gauges is idiotic. >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I'm talking real world here. Note from the real world: lots of cars DO still have adequate instrumentation. Just because a couple of little shitboxes from a couple of shitbox-specialist manufacturers don't doesn't mean the rest of the world will follow. >>>>But Nate seems to think that the same dumbasses whom he ADMITS can't >>>>halfway maintain their cars, can suddenly see the gauges and know what [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Nate's the dumbass. I gotta come to Nate's defense here. As I stated earlier, everyone should know the four basic functions to trouble free driving; 1. Fuel Supply 2. Engine Temperature 3. Oil Pressure 4. Electrical System Status It should be one of the basic requirements to get behind the wheel. It's just that simple... JT >>>>> But Nate seems to think that the same dumbasses whom he ADMITS >>>>> can't halfway maintain their cars, can suddenly see the gauges and [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > 1. Fuel Supply > 2. Engine Temperature what are you going to do with that? normal operation is controlled by the fully automatic thermostat. all you need to know is whether it overheats. and that's a maintenance issue more than a driver monitoring issue. > 3. Oil Pressure see above. > 4. Electrical System Status see above. > It should be one of the basic requirements to get behind the wheel. > > It's just that simple... > > JT >>>>>> But Nate seems to think that the same dumbasses whom he ADMITS >>>>>> can't halfway maintain their cars, can suddenly see the gauges and [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > see above. If that's "all you need to know" I am guessing that a) you don't keep your cars very long, in the grand scheme of things and b) you carry a AAA card. Some of us like to know about *impending* failures before a tow truck is necessary. It seems somehow more convenient. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel >>>>>>> But Nate seems to think that the same dumbasses whom he ADMITS >>>>>>> can't halfway maintain their cars, can suddenly see the gauges [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > Some of us like to know about *impending* failures before a tow truck is > necessary. It seems somehow more convenient. some of you may need it because you drive sh.t cars and you don't maintain them properly. i otoh drive honda. and when i have a car with 306k on the clock, that runs perfectly, and looks set to run another 300k, i read all this inane bleating and wonder how you guys ever get up in the mornings. > > Some of us like to know about *impending* failures before a tow truck is > > necessary. It seems somehow more convenient. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > 300k, i read all this inane bleating and wonder how you guys ever get up > in the mornings. These are the same types as people who own computers for the sake of owning computers. They love to fiddle and measure clock speeds and broadband speeds and know the cpu temperature and how it measures on benchmarks, and then fiddle some more to see if they can beat their benchmarks. You don't want those people making strategical decisions on how to deploy a technology infrastructure within a corporation. Same with the cars: you don't want the engineers who have to know the temperature at the top of the piston ("just in case, to avoid failure") to be involved in managing the money pump that is an auto manufacturer. >>> Some of us like to know about *impending* failures before a tow truck is >>> necessary. It seems somehow more convenient. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > temperature at the top of the piston ("just in case, to avoid failure") > to be involved in managing the money pump that is an auto manufacturer. you'd certainly want to know in the r&d phase to see whether the cheapo pistons you're trying to use will melt at w.o.t. but once you've determined that relative to design life, then it's completely over. all attention then turns to q.c. and cost management. >>>Some of us like to know about *impending* failures before a tow truck is >>>necessary. It seems somehow more convenient. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > temperature at the top of the piston ("just in case, to avoid failure") > to be involved in managing the money pump that is an auto manufacturer. We're not talking about throwing thermocouples in there willy-nilly. We're talking about the basic instrumentation necessary to give you a high-level view of the basic operating parameters and health of the engine. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel > > Same with the cars: you don't want the engineers who have to know the > > temperature at the top of the piston ("just in case, to avoid failure") [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > We're talking about the basic instrumentation necessary to give you a > high-level view of the basic operating parameters and health of the engine. Again: that "basic" instrumentation is beyond 99.9% of the auto buying and driving public. > Again: that "basic" instrumentation is beyond 99.9% of the auto buying > and driving public. Most, if not all the cars on the US market today perform at levels beyond a similiar percentage of the auto buying and driving public, yet automakers aren't limiting themselves to basic transportion like a base model '60 ford falcon. Seems that automakers don't have a problem creating cars that are beyond the vast majority of customers. Given modern technology and what the engine management computer already monitors, we are talking a system that would only cost a couple of dollars per car and could absorb other functions making it's net cost zero or even a cost savings. > > Again: that "basic" instrumentation is beyond 99.9% of the auto buying > > and driving public. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > automakers aren't limiting themselves to basic transportion like a base > model '60 ford falcon. So? At the same time, they're taking away instrumentation. Selling cars is about marketing. You find what hits the buyer's hot button. Massive instrumentation doesn't do that. >>> Same with the cars: you don't want the engineers who have to know the >>> temperature at the top of the piston ("just in case, to avoid failure") [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Again: that "basic" instrumentation is beyond 99.9% of the auto buying > and driving public. That's ridiculous, anyone that can tell time can read an oil pressure gauge. That skill wasn't beyond my grandmother who drove cars from 1920 until 1995 and never had more than a high-school education, so it damn sure better NOT be beyond more than 1% of the driving populace today or we really are headed down the sewer as a society. > > Again: that "basic" instrumentation is beyond 99.9% of the auto buying > > and driving public. > > That's ridiculous, anyone that can tell time can read an oil pressure > gauge. <snort> Sure. Uh-huh. You don't get out much, do you. ....you don't want the engineers who have to know the > temperature at the top of the piston ("just in case, to avoid failure") > to be involved in managing the money pump that is an auto manufacturer. Often the opposite is true. "Bean counters" dictate what engineers have to work with and how. Good example might be the Accord tranny problems of a few years back. Another is marketing sales that make promises and in order to meet traget production rates/timelines, engineers are forced to take shortcuts. During my working career, I saw this to be the case all too often. JT In article <EPMTj.295572$cQ1.160937@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, > ....you don't want the engineers who have to know the > > temperature at the top of the piston ("just in case, to avoid failure") > > to be involved in managing the money pump that is an auto manufacturer. > > Often the opposite is true. There are engineers who understand business (good), and there are beancounters who give zero credibility to the engineers and who have no idea and don't care whether their company sells cars or toilet paper (bad). But the engineer who knows only engineering and knows only that in his world it's important to know the temperature at the top of the piston, is not the guy you want running the company. At all. > Some of us like to know about *impending* failures before a tow truck is > necessary. It seems somehow more convenient. > > nate Which may be why the NEWEST car I own has seen 250,000 miles without need for a towtruck (EVER). The highest mileage has 447,000 miles. The middle one will hit 300k sometime this summer. Not bad for "inferior American cars." In article <MjmTj.290429$cQ1.109893@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, > I gotta come to Nate's defense here. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > It's just that simple... I'm dealing in the real world here. People don't know the basic functions. And you can't make them know. You can't make knowing those functions be required for them to get a driver's license. Given that, we must find a way to accommodate those people. Or change the law. > In article > <MjmTj.290429$cQ1.109893@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > You can't make knowing those functions be required for them to get a > driver's license. Why not? Driving a vehicle carries with it some sense of responsibility. Certainly CDL holders are already required to know far more about how their vehicle operates than simply monitoring four simple, basic gauges. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel > > People don't know the basic functions. And you can't make them know. > > You can't make knowing those functions be required for them to get a > > driver's license. > > Why not? Driving a vehicle carries with it some sense of > responsibility. You wouldn't make much of a politician, I'll tell you that. Again, real world: there is no personal responsibility. Just ask the courts and any lawyer you want. We as a society are way, WAY beyond assuming any sort of personal responsibility, ESPECIALLY for something as fundamentally necessary as personal transportation. You can't put that smoke back into the bottle. >>> People don't know the basic functions. And you can't make them know. >>> You can't make knowing those functions be required for them to get a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > You wouldn't make much of a politician, I'll tell you that. Wow. So you CAN compliment someone! > > In article <fvlbsr3...@news2.newsguy.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Wow. So you CAN compliment someone! Seriously. I took it as such :) nate >>> I gotta come to Nate's defense here. >>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Why not? Driving a vehicle carries with it some sense of > responsibility. the only "responsibility" that matters is legal responsibility. you don't sign a contract to monitor any gauges in your car when you buy it. and you /certainly/ don't get auto manufacturers sue drivers for failing to check oil levels and f.cking up their beautiful machines. > Certainly CDL holders are already required to know far > more about how their vehicle operates than simply monitoring four > simple, basic gauges. really? in what way? is it legally enforceable? >>>> I gotta come to Nate's defense here. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > and you /certainly/ don't get auto manufacturers sue drivers for > failing to check oil levels and f.cking up their beautiful machines. but it *can* put you in a difficult spot if, say, your vehicle breaks down in the middle of a long tunnel and you get to pay for the quick-response tow service to yank you out of there. Plus if I'm spending a huge amount of money - likely the largest single item expenditure most people make, save for a house, and unlike a house, a car depreciates like mad - on a car, I want it to be reliable and in good condition for as long as possible. >> Certainly CDL holders are already required to know far more about how >> their vehicle operates than simply monitoring four simple, basic gauges. > > really? in what way? is it legally enforceable? http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/registration-licensing/cdl/cdl.htm http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_00/49cfr383_00.html and yes - if you don't pass the test, you can't legally operate a commercial vehicle (as defined by the government.) nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel > on a car, I want it to be reliable and in > good condition for as long as possible. That's why I avoid the German marques like crazy, and stick with Honda or Toyota. It's simple statistics. >>on a car, I want it to be reliable and in >>good condition for as long as possible. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > It's simple statistics. I'm not aware of any readily available statistics on really, really long term use, but if you're talking about cars from the 80's the Krauts had it down back then. Consumer Reports, et. al. IMHO take a short term view, although somewhat by necessity since I don't know how many people actually keep cars as long as I do. Even so, any car "of a certain age" will have issues, no matter *how* well built. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel > > That's why I avoid the German marques like crazy, and stick with Honda > > or Toyota. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > term use, but if you're talking about cars from the 80's the Krauts had > it down back then. Sure they did. And then they realized that they'd rather sell highly expensive 3 year wonders to rich idiots who are happy to lease and flip. THAT'S what keeps the money pumping into the company. EVERYONE knows the story of M-B in this country. From tanks to trash. It was a business decision--to build junk. >>>> In article >>>> <MjmTj.290429$cQ1.109893@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > car depreciates like mad - on a car, I want it to be reliable and in > good condition for as long as possible. eh? you didn't read what i actually said - you're responding to what you /wanted/ me to say. >>> Certainly CDL holders are already required to know far more about >>> how their vehicle operates than simply monitoring four simple, basic [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/registration-licensing/cdl/cdl.htm > http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_00/49cfr383_00.html are you trying to be funny? > and yes - if you don't pass the test, you can't legally operate a > commercial vehicle (as defined by the government.) eh? see above. >>>>> In article >>>>> <MjmTj.290429$cQ1.109893@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > > eh? see above. I can honestly say that I didn't understand a single tiny bit of what you were trying to get at with your reply. Congratulations, a new Usenet record. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel > > Certainly CDL holders are already required to know far > > more about how their vehicle operates than simply monitoring four > > simple, basic gauges. > > really? in what way? is it legally enforceable? Only for the purposes of taking the CDL test. >>> Certainly CDL holders are already required to know far >>> more about how their vehicle operates than simply monitoring four >>> simple, basic gauges. >> really? in what way? is it legally enforceable? > > Only for the purposes of taking the CDL test. and for a normal private license??? >>>> But Nate seems to think that the same dumbasses whom he ADMITS can't >>>> halfway maintain their cars, can suddenly see the gauges and know what [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Nate's the dumbass. No DUBMASS. Nate is saying that dumb-assedness begets dumbassedness. Designing for dumbasses makes more users into dumbasses. Up to a point "ease of use" is beneficial. Carried to far, it dumbs down. >> I guess I'm not typical then, as since I purchased my old F-150 I've >> added a REAL oil pressure gauge (thanks Ford!) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > oil pressure varies and were racking up warranty costs thinking there > was a problem. absolutely. > It's a classic reaction of a US corporation to just dumb > it down rather than to arrive at solution that would let the real gauge > stay. the "solution" would be driver ed. and that's a HUGE waste of time for most people. > I doubt there is any savings in the sender differences. you don't need to know what the pressure is, only whether it's outside spec. > >> I guess I'm not typical then, as since I purchased my old F-150 I've > >> added a REAL oil pressure gauge (thanks Ford!) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > absolutely. No absolutely not. The whole basis of your arguments is flawed. Your premise is that the maintenance people at dealerships don't know how to interpret the readings on a gauge and they are tearing engines apart that don't need it because of their inability to properly interpret a gauge. The fact is that when the idiot light comes on for low oil pressure, It is almost always the case that this was preceded by a period of time when the oil pressure was lower than normal. Might even be a long time. The guy who has an oil related failure at 70K miles has a good case for a warranty claim if he has registered complaints that his gauge has been reading low since 30K miles. The guy who has an idiot light is just SOL. So yes it is about avoiding warranty claims, but its not about avoiding false claims its about avoiding legitimate warranty claims. The same is true of temp gauge. A gauge (that works correctly) will give you warning long long before there is a real problem. Warranty claims and facing them head on is what strengthens a car manufacturer product reliability. Devising ways to avoid warranty claims is a failed strategy. It may produce short term gains but the feed back from a strong warranty system is what makes cars more reliable in the long run. A car company that thinks the engineering solution to having fluctuating oil pressure is to get rid of the gauge or engineer the gauge to not give a true reading is a car company that has a long term survivability problem. -jim > > It's a classic reaction of a US corporation to just dumb > > it down rather than to arrive at solution that would let the real gauge [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > you don't need to know what the pressure is, only whether it's outside spec. ----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- > The guy > who has an oil related failure at 70K miles has a good case for a warranty > claim if he has registered complaints that his gauge has been reading low > since 30K miles. The guy who has an idiot light is just SOL. That depends on how the idiot light is programmed. Done well, the "check engine" light is just that--"check engine". Not "replace engine, it's way too late". >>>> I guess I'm not typical then, as since I purchased my old F-150 I've >>>> added a REAL oil pressure gauge (thanks Ford!) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > No absolutely not. yes, absolutely. clearly, you don't understand. > > > The whole basis of your arguments is flawed. Your premise is that the > maintenance people at dealerships don't know how to interpret the readings > on a gauge and they are tearing engines apart that don't need it because > of their inability to properly interpret a gauge. you don't understand - the gauges in a car are doctored so they deliberately don't tell you much. the temp gauge on a honda for instance goes like this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/2445120839/ that's scanned straight out of the workshop manual. same for fuel gauges. have you ever driven a car whose fuel gauge rises and falls as the gas slops around as you go every single bump? it's a HUGE pita and makes it almost impossible to know anything other than whether the tank's full or empty. > The fact is that when the idiot light comes on for low oil pressure, It > is almost always the case that this was preceded by a period of time when [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > gauge. A gauge (that works correctly) will give you warning long long > before there is a real problem. so what? if it's "low", what are you going to do? there's no magic bullet for low oil pressure. unless its something dumb like a blocked oil filter, but that's neglect and the owner deserves what they get in that case. if it's just age, keep running it until it fails. > Warranty claims and facing them head on is what strengthens a car > manufacturer product reliability. Devising ways to avoid warranty claims > is a failed strategy. but an idiot taking their car in to the dealer all the time because they don't understand what a "real" gauge is telling them is an even more failed strategy. auto makers have been there, done that, and it's utterly stupid how some customers behave about that stuff. > It may produce short term gains but the feed back > from a strong warranty system is what makes cars more reliable in the long > run. it's not a warranty claim, it's a waste of time! > A car company that thinks the engineering solution to having > fluctuating oil pressure is to get rid of the gauge or engineer the gauge > to not give a true reading is a car company that has a long term > survivability problem. dude, oil pressure /will/ fluctuate over time. all the engine needs is sufficient pressure to ensure hydrodynamic separation of the journal bearings. and that's not a high pressure. it's well over the minimum necessary when the motor is new, and it approaches minimum towards the end. that's not foul play, that's just a fact of life. again, so what if the pressure is low? what are you going to do about it? pay for a strip-down earlier than you need to? because that's what you're asking for. it makes no economic [or engineering] sense. > -jim > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups > ---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- >>> Actually, yes you can. e.g. if the temp. creeps up at a stoplight in >>> warm weather, even if it never overheats, it's a fair bet that there's a [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > That's what Steve and his narrow-minded people want. They don't > understand the REAL world in which the typical car buyer lives. IT always goes to hell when the Honda and Toyota fools invade a technical discussion. No, "Steve" never said that. YOU said that engineers prefer oversimplification, and I (correctly) pointeed out that most engineers will err on the side of over instrumentation. My PERSONAL claim was that 4 basic drivetrain instruments are needed to keep a car reasonably safe: voltage or current, oil pressure, water temperature, and fuel level. With such SIMPLE instrumentation needs, WHY THE BLOODY HELL is the motivation for further over-simplification? And even if further simplification makes some kind of economic sense to the manufacturer (presumbably because they save a few cents per vehicle and sell a few more vehicles when an engine roasts because the idiot light said "too late, you're screwed), why would ANYONE with enough interest in cars to read R.A.T. actually PREFER a dumbed-down car to one with basic instrumentation? It wouldn't keep me from buying a car if it only had an idiot light, but you guys act like you'd turn down a car with 3 gauges! And by your argument, we should just eliminate the damn fuel gauge too. Put a warning light on and call it good. Sheesh. <snipped> > No, "Steve" never said that. YOU said that engineers prefer > oversimplification, and I (correctly) pointeed out that most engineers > will err on the side of over instrumentation. My PERSONAL claim was that > 4 basic drivetrain instruments are needed to keep a car reasonably safe: > voltage or current, oil pressure, water temperature, and fuel level. I would add voltage and (instead of "or") current and warning lights for low oil level, low coolant level, and low tire pressure (which is being implemented already). SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >>>> Actually, yes you can. e.g. if the temp. creeps up at a stoplight >>>> in warm weather, even if it never overheats, it's a fair bet that [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > Sheesh. er, mr "engineer", all vehicles have instrumentation up the wazoo in design and testing stages. and if it's done right, you can take them off again because you can be certain of the spec and the statistical failure rate. if you /haven't/ done this homework otoh, then, sure, you might need more gauges and dials. but that presumes two big dumb things no proficient designer would get wrong: 1. the operator cares. as a honda driver, i'm confident i have nothing to worry about unless /i/ f.ck up. i therefore don't /need/ any more instrumentation and i don't care to have it. if i want to check oil pressure, i do what it says in the service manual - connect a pressure gauge to the pressure switch outlet and measure it! with a /real/ pressure gauge! 2. that the dealer network won't mind dealing with "false positive" service bookings from the idiots that think their temp gauge isn't quite in the right position every five minutes. <snip> > 1. the operator cares. as a honda driver, i'm confident i have > nothing to worry about unless /i/ f.ck up. i therefore don't /need/ any > more instrumentation and i don't care to have it. Ah, that explains your position then. You actually believe that Honda engineers are so superior that your vehicle will continue to run indefinitely with absolutely no faults whatsoever? Sadly, this belief does seem to be prevalent among owners of certain vehicle brands, especially Honda and Toyota. This probably explains why I see lots of *newer* Hondas and Toyotas on the roads, but very few older ones, despite the fact that for the most part they are fairly decent vehicles. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel > <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > engineers are so superior that your vehicle will continue to run > indefinitely with absolutely no faults whatsoever? absolutely not. but the point is, almost nothing comes out of the blue. and the rare things that do are statistically insignificant. it's utterly stupid to argue that all cars should carry extensive instrumentation for the one in a million times it might be useful. and that's assuming the driver of that one in a million car would pay attention. > Sadly, this belief does seem to be prevalent among owners of certain > vehicle brands, especially Honda and Toyota. for good reason!!!!! > This probably explains why > I see lots of *newer* Hondas and Toyotas on the roads, but very few > older ones, despite the fact that for the most part they are fairly > decent vehicles. eh? where the heck do you live??? > absolutely not. but the point is, almost nothing comes out of the blue. > and the rare things that do are statistically insignificant. Hmmm... in the past 10 years catching "statistically insignificant" indications from simple gauges has saved me at least two engines (and breakdowns that might have occurred God-knows-where.) That's sure as hell not insignificant to my bank account, or my family's safety. it's > utterly stupid to argue that all cars should carry extensive > instrumentation for the one in a million times it might be useful. As I said before: God you're dumb. No one is advocating "extensive" instrumentation. The instrumentation needs of a passenger car are SO simplistic that there's no need to condense/combine/dumb-down the instrumentation. > 1. the operator cares. as a honda driver, i'm confident i have > nothing to worry about unless /i/ f.ck up. And that line of thinking IS your first f.ck-up. >>>> Actually, yes you can. e.g. if the temp. creeps up at a stoplight >>>> in warm weather, even if it never overheats, it's a fair bet that [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > Sheesh. Heh... The only "new" car that I bought back in '61, a VW beetle had a little foot lever to activate the "reserve" gas tank. No gage. OTOH, I still managed to run out of gas on occasion anyway. Yep, the basic four gages should be standard in every car AND everyone should be aware of how they work. Still, some will still complain... JT but the reality is, on a properly maintained system, > this is a zero issue. I thought he was talking about properly maintaining the cooling fans. Some people drive cars that have more than a 1000 hours on them. -jim >and it's only vaguely useful on improperly > maintained ones - just like you describe - because by then, it's usually [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > perfectly entitled to abandon the vehicle [and its instrumentation] to > its fate. ----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- >I thought he was talking about properly maintaining the cooling fans. Some >people drive cars that have more than a 1000 hours on them. Hell, I put a thousand hours on in less than a year. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." >> I thought he was talking about properly maintaining the cooling fans. Some >> people drive cars that have more than a 1000 hours on them. > > Hell, I put a thousand hours on in less than a year. > --scott do you guys ever bother to read? "they can operate for over 1000 hours, at the highest temperature the engine can produce, with 99.9999% probability that they will remain within spec." that's not 1000 hours of plodding around town, that's 1000 hours of fully loaded w.o.t. and 1000 hours is 2:45 hours per day, every day, no vacations, no days off. or at 50mph, that's 50,000 miles. a surprisingly large amount of driving for a single year, whichever way you slice it. >>>>>>> You are assuming one HELL of a lot here. You assume that people >>>>>>> know how the machinery works in the first place. That's a strong [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > maintained ones - just like you describe - because by then, it's usually > too late. But that is precisely how most non-enthusiast-owned vehicles are maintained. People do the bare minimum to keep the vehicle running, and generally plan on trading it in at 5 years old or less, and/or driving it until the wheels fall off at 7-8 years old. Do you want to buy a used car from one of these people? > it's totally not unreasonable for a manufacturer to assume half-way > competent standards of maintenance. Yes, it is, because those do not reflect reality. > if those standards are not kept, > and you describe them perfectly, then i think a manufacturer is > perfectly entitled to abandon the vehicle [and its instrumentation] to > its fate. Sure, but that will drastically affect resale value of used cars, when buyers don't want to touch them and/or consider them disposable after a couple years and price them accordingly. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel >>>>>>>> You are assuming one HELL of a lot here. You assume that people >>>>>>>> know how the machinery works in the first place. That's a [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > it until the wheels fall off at 7-8 years old. Do you want to buy a > used car from one of these people? er, if you think detroit has an interest in /any/ of their vehicles running beyond that time, you're too innocent for this game. >> it's totally not unreasonable for a manufacturer to assume half-way >> competent standards of maintenance. > > Yes, it is, because those do not reflect reality. see above. >> if those standards are not kept, and you describe them perfectly, then >> i think a manufacturer is perfectly entitled to abandon the vehicle [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > buyers don't want to touch them and/or consider them disposable after a > couple years and price them accordingly. says who? what was the history of your "old f150" when you bought it? did it have sludge in the radiator? how did you test for that? did you check the oil in the diff to see it was the correct grade? how worn were the main bearings? what does an oil leak mean? bottom line - unless something is, er, "obvious", all you have to go on is experience and subjective judgment. beyond that, you're just as much in the dark as the next guy. the only factors on which you can really rely are mileage [if genuine], documented history [if genuine] and physical appearance. and even then, that's b.s. my crx has peeling paint and primer on one door. it looks real ghetto. but the motor purrs like a kitten and it goes like a freakin' rocket [thanks to a zc cam]. but you'd never know a damned thing from looking at it, or even from opening the hood. peeling paint on the rocker cover and everything. >>>>>>>>> You are assuming one HELL of a lot here. You assume that >>>>>>>>> people know how the machinery works in the first place. That's [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > see above. So? The auto industry doesn't give a crap about producing decent products aimed at knowledgeable consumers who intend to keep them for several decades. This is not news to me. This is also why for years all of my primary cars have been German (save for one Dodge Dart.) When I find that design philosophy has swung back to treating a new vehicle purchase as the investment that something that expensive ought to be, I might consider a) buying an actual new car and b) buying an American or Japanese car. Until that time, they will get none of my money. >>> if those standards are not kept, and you describe them perfectly, >>> then i think a manufacturer is perfectly entitled to abandon the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > says who? what was the history of your "old f150" when you bought it? One owner, all paperwork. > did it have sludge in the radiator? how did you test for that? I looked. > did you > check the oil in the diff to see it was the correct grade? no, as it'd never been changed. > how worn > were the main bearings? I couldn't tell, because it had the factory "idiot gauge" in the dash when I test drove it. > what does an oil leak mean? > > bottom line - unless something is, er, "obvious", all you have to go on > is experience and subjective judgment. beyond that, you're just as much > in the dark as the next guy. But if I have gauges, I'm much less in the dark. And if the truck had had gauges I would have been less likely to negotiate downward as hard. > the only factors on which you can really > rely are mileage [if genuine], documented history [if genuine] and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > cam]. but you'd never know a damned thing from looking at it, or even > from opening the hood. peeling paint on the rocker cover and everything. Good for you. You realize that if you went to sell it, it'd be completely worthless. (I'm not saying that it really *is,* but neither can you say with certainty that it *isn't* and that at hot idle the oil pressure is 0.1 PSI above the threshold that triggers the idiot light.) Even you don't know the actual condition of some of the mechanical stuff without gauges. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel >>>>>>>>>> You are assuming one HELL of a lot here. You assume that >>>>>>>>>> people know how the machinery works in the first place. [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > > I looked. you drained it and used an endoscope??? i don't believe you. >> did you check the oil in the diff to see it was the correct grade? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I couldn't tell, because it had the factory "idiot gauge" in the dash > when I test drove it. dude, unless they're worn out and oil pressure drops too low, you still have no idea. and if just one is worn, you definitely won't know unless it's making noise. especially not if it's spun and the oil way is blocking what would otherwise be excessive leakage. [you'll find out 50 miles down the road though!] >> what does an oil leak mean? >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > But if I have gauges, I'm much less in the dark. And if the truck had > had gauges I would have been less likely to negotiate downward as hard. you could have a flight deck like a 747. but unless you're testing a prototype, there's no point as it will operate within spec for the life of the vehicle. >> the only factors on which you can really rely are mileage [if >> genuine], documented history [if genuine] and physical appearance. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Good for you. You realize that if you went to sell it, it'd be > completely worthless. that's precisely my point!!! you can't really tell with /anything/ you buy unless you have an extremely good working experience of stripped and failed motors so you can see telltales. can you tell what's acceptable wear on a cam just by looking at it? what signs flag problems for you? > (I'm not saying that it really *is,* but neither > can you say with certainty that it *isn't* and that at hot idle the oil > pressure is 0.1 PSI above the threshold that triggers the idiot light.) > Even you don't know the actual condition of some of the mechanical > stuff without gauges. that's my point! i don't /need/ to know if it's working within spec and i know it's been well maintained. if you don't know history and you don't know mileage, i defy you to have the slightest clue about condition unless you know /exactly/ what you're looking for. even mileage isn't worth that much - 300k miles well maintained can easily be better than 75k of neglect. > >>> it's totally not unreasonable for a manufacturer to assume half-way > >>> competent standards of maintenance. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > several decades. This is not news to me. This is also why for years > all of my primary cars have been German <snort> You think GERMAN cars are built with any sense of decently logical engineering, with the intention of lasting several decades??? I wouldn't buy a German car with YOUR money. (Been there, done that.) And yes, I "get" German cars. German cars are the expensive, pouty, and high-maintenance mistresses of the road. Damn, they are a fine, fine ride... ....but then the maintenance and pouting kicks in. At some point, without unlimited funds, you are at a decision point: continue the high-priced, high-maintenance fun, or go back home and enjoy your reliable Lexus wife of a car, patiently sitting there waiting for you to get over the midlife crisis. Oh sure, she's not as sexy as the German car, and she doesn't handle at the edge like the German car. She's also not as fickle and high maintenance and pouty, and she agrees with you much more of the time. She's always there and never complains, and you come to realize there's more to life than a high-maintenance relationship with a pouty, high-maintenance woman--no matter how sexy she is or how fun the nights out with her can be. Because when she lets you down and demands more of you than you have to give, and treats you like dirt, you're standing there all alone outside the club, looking and feeling like an idiot. Your Lexus wife would never, ever do that to you. And the occasional fun night out isn't worth what you end up paying for it, both financially and in time wasted while you wait for the German car mistress to be in the mood to play. Do this: start paying attention to cars with tail light and headlight problems. What brands of cars are you seeing? That's right--VW, M-B, and BMW. And pay attention to how old, or rather how new, those problem cars are. The reality of electrical issues with German cars make Lucas electrics look reliable. Now *try* to find a Honda or Toyota, either low brand or high brand, no matter how old, with non-working tail lights. Good luck. It's a small thing, but it represents the reality of the situation. You want to buy a German car? Just buy a GM car. At least the money you're throwing away stays more inside the country--and you get just as reliable a car. >>>>>it's totally not unreasonable for a manufacturer to assume half-way >>>>>competent standards of maintenance. [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > throwing away stays more inside the country--and you get just as > reliable a car. The 20-year-old Porsche in my driveway disagrees with you. It's eminently reliable and while the maintenance costs are high that's just the price of admission. Which is still, when you include purchase price into the equation, less than the cost of buying ANY new car save for maybe an el strippo Hyundai or Aveo. Most fun you can have on 4 wheels for under $4K. Your characterization might be better applied to Italian or British cars, and no, I wouldn't kick a Fiat Spyder or Triumph TR-6 out of my driveway for leaking oil. Probably wouldn't want to rely on it to get me to work every day, though, at least not without a backup vehicle. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel > > It's a small thing, but it represents the reality of the situation. You > > want to buy a German car? Just buy a GM car. At least the money you're [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The 20-year-old Porsche in my driveway disagrees with you. It's > eminently reliable I guarantee that if you and I got together, we would never come to a common definition of the word "reliable". >>>It's a small thing, but it represents the reality of the situation. You >>>want to buy a German car? Just buy a GM car. At least the money you're [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I guarantee that if you and I got together, we would never come to a > common definition of the word "reliable". Perhaps not. I don't mind *maintenance* but I do mind replacing broken parts. I especially loathe my company-provided Impala. It just sucks in too many unique and interesting ways to list here. (peeve no. 1 - would it be too much to ask for a functional parking brake?) That alone is enough to seriously turn me off GM, despite the fact that I still have a serious jones for my dad's (well, it was my grandpa's) '73 stepside. And his old '67 Cutlass, RIP. I've heard that we're getting Malibus next time around and that the new Vectra-based 'bus are actually acceptable. I sure hope so. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel > > I guarantee that if you and I got together, we would never come to a > > common definition of the word "reliable". [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I especially loathe my company-provided Impala. Does it have a door without any real check stops in the middle, a door that just swings either wide open or all the way shut--usually doing whatever it is you DON'T want it to do? That seems to be a GM trademark. I had the choice of an Impala. I also had the choice of a Malibu. But for my company car, I chose Prius. I'd never sat in any of them, but I had faith that Toyota knew how to build a car that would satisfy me blindly, and that GM couldn't satisfy me even if I owned and managed the engineering department. >>>I guarantee that if you and I got together, we would never come to a >>>common definition of the word "reliable". [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > That seems to be a GM trademark. Yes, usually when I'm carrying a cup of coffee and a roll of prints. There's now a permanent boot print in the map pocket where I automatically kick the door when I swing it open. It swings shut even *when* all the way open in a stiff breeze or parked on a 0.01% upgrade (after it rocks back on the park pawl, that is.) > I had the choice of an Impala. I also had the choice of a Malibu. But > for my company car, I chose Prius. I'd never sat in any of them, but I > had faith that Toyota knew how to build a car that would satisfy me > blindly, and that GM couldn't satisfy me even if I owned and managed the > engineering department. My employer is all-GM, and this was the first car I got from them so I didn't even get to pick the color, I took what was available :( Free car is still desirable, even though it sucks. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel > My employer is all-GM, and this was the first car I got from them so I > didn't even get to pick the color, I took what was available :( Free > car is still desirable, even though it sucks. Free? IRS doesn't like free. Unless, of course, you use it for zero personal use. Otherwise, IRS wants that personal use accounted for and taxed as income. They're pretty plain about the whole concept. I pay a bit per month, flat. At the end of they year we figure out total yearly cost of the car and percentage of that which is personal use. That gives a personal use dollar figure. If that dollar figure is more than what I paid over the course of 12 months, the company doesn't ask me for more; it simply gives me that extra that I used, and reports it as taxable income. Simple, straightforward--and no way around it without the IRS getting upset. > > it's totally not unreasonable for a manufacturer to assume half-way > > competent standards of maintenance. > > Yes, it is, because those do not reflect reality. And yet, you want those same car owners who DON'T do halfway competent maintenance to have twizzler and fidget gauges all over the dashboard, and you state for the record that of COURSE they'll know what those gauges do and mean and will pay attention to them?? Face it: you are pwned. >>>it's totally not unreasonable for a manufacturer to assume half-way >>>competent standards of maintenance. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > and you state for the record that of COURSE they'll know what those > gauges do and mean and will pay attention to them?? As I said in my other post, sometimes those gauges are what alerts you to the fact that maintenance or repair is needed. Maybe those people won't know what the gauges mean, but if I get that vibe from them, and the car doesn't have gauges, I won't buy their used car. As I said, this depresses resale values, which exactly the people we're talking about consider important when purchasing a new vehicle. > Face it: you are pwned. How so? I'm merely presenting my perspective. Auto mfgrs. are free to pay attention to it or ignore it at their whim, makes no difference to me. I'll just wait until the 944 is well and truly plumb wore out and hopefully by then used Boxster S or Cayman prices will be within my budget. (or VW will make another small sporty car like the original GTI or Scirocco.) nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel >>>> it's totally not unreasonable for a manufacturer to assume half-way >>>> competent standards of maintenance. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > As I said in my other post, sometimes those gauges are what alerts you > to the fact that maintenance or repair is needed. not to a competent technician. if you know what you're doing, almost nothing should take you by surprise. > Maybe those people won't know what the gauges mean, but if I get that > vibe from them, and the car doesn't have gauges, I won't buy their used [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > How so? I'm merely presenting my perspective. this has indeed been a very interesting thread. the desire seems to be, underlined repeatedly by people such as yourself, is that people /want/ gauges. hence they're fitted. but the engineering reality is, pressure, temp, etc. are better served by warning lights. and the "gauges" people are given are /far/ from what they believe them to be. > Auto mfgrs. are free to > pay attention to it or ignore it at their whim, makes no difference to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > nate > > And yet, you want those same car owners who DON'T do halfway competent > > maintenance to have twizzler and fidget gauges all over the dashboard, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > As I said in my other post, sometimes those gauges are what alerts you > to the fact that maintenance or repair is needed. I repeat: only if you understand the principles of operation of the machine--which does not reflect the car buying public at large. If you don't know enough to (a) open the owner's manual, and (b) follow the VERY SIMPLE maintenance schedule--or, on a newer car, simply follow the lights on the dash that say "take the car in for service A"--then the gauges are a complete waste of money and dash real estate. >If you don't know enough to (a) open the owner's manual, and (b) follow >the VERY SIMPLE maintenance schedule--or, on a newer car, simply follow >the lights on the dash that say "take the car in for service A"--then >the gauges are a complete waste of money and dash real estate. Probably, but so is much of the rest of the car. I strongly recommend reading Cyril Kornbluth's story _The Marching Morons_. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > >If you don't know enough to (a) open the owner's manual, and (b) follow > >the VERY SIMPLE maintenance schedule--or, on a newer car, simply follow > >the lights on the dash that say "take the car in for service A"--then > >the gauges are a complete waste of money and dash real estate. > > Probably, but so is much of the rest of the car. The original claim was that most people can't maintain their cars halfway decently. And yet, the sales of cars seems to be through the roof--even high end cars. Are you saying that, for example, Lexus cars are a complete waste of money? 'Cuz, those same people who aren't maintaining their cars are buying Lexus cars hand over fist. >>>If you don't know enough to (a) open the owner's manual, and (b) follow >>>the VERY SIMPLE maintenance schedule--or, on a newer car, simply follow [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > money? 'Cuz, those same people who aren't maintaining their cars are > buying Lexus cars hand over fist. Yes, if you're not going to maintain it properly. A properly maintained car that isn't a complete POS to begin with can easily be used daily for 20 years or more. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel > > Are you saying that, for example, Lexus cars are a complete waste of > > money? 'Cuz, those same people who aren't maintaining their cars are [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > car that isn't a complete POS to begin with can easily be used daily for > 20 years or more. OK, so it's not the car in and of itself that's a waste of money. It's not maintaining a car, any car, that wastes money. That comes down to the individual, not the car. >>>Are you saying that, for example, Lexus cars are a complete waste of >>>money? 'Cuz, those same people who aren't maintaining their cars are [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > That comes down to the individual, not the car. Yes, but it is more difficult to "properly maintain" a car without gauges, as gauges give the aware driver earlier warning of impending issues that need attention. Two examples already given are cooling fan problems and main/rod bearing wear; easy enough to fix when caught early but letting it go can result in a full engine rebuild, at which point it may no longer be economical to maintain the car any longer. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel >>>> Are you saying that, for example, Lexus cars are a complete waste of >>>> money? 'Cuz, those same people who aren't maintaining their cars [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > gauges, as gauges give the aware driver earlier warning of impending > issues that need attention. rubbish!!! the gauges actually in cars don't give you detailed info. and the gauges you /could/ fit to a car need to be interpreted. without baseline research data, they're useless. > Two examples already given are cooling fan > problems but fans are unnecessary when the vehicle is moving. and you can hear whether they're working if it's not. that's not too hard is it? > and main/rod bearing wear; which is curable only by stripdown!!! again, there's damn-all use doing that prematurely because the customer doesn't know that just because pressure is lower than it used to be, the oil and bearings are still performing just fine. > easy enough to fix when caught early so how exactly do /you/ propose to fix lower oil pressure??? i want details of what you think it involves. > but letting it go can result in a full engine rebuild, at which point it > may no longer be economical to maintain the car any longer. but you "maintain" a 944 - if ever a vehicle were uneconomic, that is it. otoh, i can get a whole new engine for my honda for ~$300. less if i buy locally. for that money, i can throw in a whole new motor every year if i want to. "no longer be economical" my a.s. >>>>> Are you saying that, for example, Lexus cars are a complete waste >>>>> of money? 'Cuz, those same people who aren't maintaining their [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > rubbish!!! the gauges actually in cars don't give you detailed info. this may be true. However, that doesn't negate the usefulness of proper, calibrated gauges. > and the gauges you /could/ fit to a car need to be interpreted. without > baseline research data, they're useless. False. If a user is at least scanning the gauges regularly, even if he has no clue what the hell they mean, he can tell if, say, the hot idle oil pressure used to be 20 PSI and now it's 12 PSI, or it has recently started dropping by 10 PSI every time he sticks his foot in it, etc. All better than not being aware of a problem until the car starts making odd noises. >> Two examples already given are cooling fan problems > > but fans are unnecessary when the vehicle is moving. Yes, and cars are ALWAYS moving when they're operating. > and you can hear > whether they're working if it's not. that's not too hard is it? But how do you know if they're *supposed* to be running without a temp. gauge? Otherwise you'll have to wait for the smell of hot glycol or the idiot light to come on. >> and main/rod bearing wear; > > which is curable only by stripdown!!! again, there's damn-all use doing > that prematurely because the customer doesn't know that just because > pressure is lower than it used to be, the oil and bearings are still > performing just fine. If you don't mind quick and dirty repairs, it's quite possible to change simply the rod and main bearing shells on many cars without significant disassembly other than removal of the oil pan and pump. If the crank journals are in good shape this can let you get many more miles out of an engine. >> easy enough to fix when caught early > > so how exactly do /you/ propose to fix lower oil pressure??? i want > details of what you think it involves. See above. >> but letting it go can result in a full engine rebuild, at which point >> it may no longer be economical to maintain the car any longer. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > i buy locally. for that money, i can throw in a whole new motor every > year if i want to. "no longer be economical" my a.s. Balls. You may be able to get a *different* engine for your Honda for $300, but it ain't new. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel > > rubbish!!! the gauges actually in cars don't give you detailed info. > > this may be true. However, that doesn't negate the usefulness of > proper, calibrated gauges. See my comment elsewhere in this thread. A properly crafted computer program can do a much better job watching a MUCH wider range of measurements and integrate those measurements into a program that knows what to look out for. It is doing more things faster than the human could do. >> > rubbish!!! the gauges actually in cars don't give you detailed info. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >measurements and integrate those measurements into a program that knows >what to look out for. This is true. >It is doing more things faster than the human could do. This is not true. Just because it CAN do a better job doesn't mean anyone is bothering to make it do so. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > >See my comment elsewhere in this thread. A properly crafted computer > >program can do a much better job watching a MUCH wider range of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > This is not true. Just because it CAN do a better job doesn't mean anyone > is bothering to make it do so. The fact is, they are doing a better job with the computer programming than a human can with whatever gauges would fit into the dashboard. >>> See my comment elsewhere in this thread. A properly crafted computer >>> program can do a much better job watching a MUCH wider range of [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > The fact is, they are doing a better job with the computer programming > than a human can with whatever gauges would fit into the dashboard. and it's the same engineers who spec that stuff as who fit dummy gauges for the nate's of this world to look at. they /know/ what they're doing. >>>> See my comment elsewhere in this thread. A properly crafted computer >>>> program can do a much better job watching a MUCH wider range of [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >and it's the same engineers who spec that stuff as who fit dummy gauges >for the nate's of this world to look at. they /know/ what they're doing. You obviously don't know jack sh.t about product development. >>>rubbish!!! the gauges actually in cars don't give you detailed info. >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > It is doing more things faster than the human could do. The only problem with this thinking is that someone that monitors a basic set of gages will take action vs. the 'puter saying "check motah" will likely result in the driver ignoring it, (since the same warning can also point to insignificant errors), and driving the car to total failure... Especially females. (Not you Elle). Sad testimony to what we have achieved as a society. JT > The only problem with this thinking is that someone that > monitors a basic set of gages will take action vs. the > 'puter saying "check motah" will likely result in the > driver ignoring it, (since the same warning can also point > to insignificant errors), and driving the car to total > failure... Especially females. (Not you Elle). It's true that, on average, females are more ignorant of things electrical and mechanical. But in general, I think the females are more willing to admit their ignorance. (Plus society is easier on a female ignorant of cars.) I think this means the females are more inclined to do something meaningful when the CEL comes on. Males (not you nor anyone here) OTOH can be overconfident--they'll second guess the computer, say, and will drive the car to ruin. Elle "Don't drive like my brother." His car's low oil pressure light came on. He continued to drive the car until the engine seized and all he had left was a massive paperweight. >>The only problem with this thinking is that someone that >>monitors a basic set of gages will take action vs. the [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > light came on. He continued to drive the car until the > engine seized and all he had left was a massive paperweight. Heh... I'll betcha that he also won't ask for dirctions when he's lost...... <G> JT > The only problem with this thinking is that someone that monitors a > basic set of gages will take action vs. the 'puter saying "check motah" [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > JT Shoot, even Nate's vaunted German engineering has brought us the BMW engine without an oil dipstick, because the computer is taking care of that for you. I'm guessing the computer IS doing a better job of watching a bunch of parameters than any driver could do. Do we need the "check engine" light to light up green, yellow, and red to indicate the severity of the issue? Yes. But that's a tweak to the design, and is no reason to throw the entire design out. >>>>>> Are you saying that, for example, Lexus cars are a complete waste >>>>>> of money? 'Cuz, those same people who aren't maintaining their [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > this may be true. However, that doesn't negate the usefulness of > proper, calibrated gauges. ok, so you fit a gauge, and it shows oil pressure of 51psi. then one day, it's 50psi. what are you going to do? at what pressure do the bearings hydrodynamically separate? does the gauge tell you? >> and the gauges you /could/ fit to a car need to be interpreted. >> without baseline research data, they're useless. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > better than not being aware of a problem until the car starts making odd > noises. at what pressure to the bearings hydrodynamically separate? >>> Two examples already given are cooling fan problems >> >> but fans are unnecessary when the vehicle is moving. > > Yes, and cars are ALWAYS moving when they're operating. are you trying to be funny? >> and you can hear whether they're working if it's not. that's not too >> hard is it? > > But how do you know if they're *supposed* to be running without a temp. > gauge? Otherwise you'll have to wait for the smell of hot glycol or the > idiot light to come on. what does the gauge tell you? what's the delta between fan on, and fan off??? >>> and main/rod bearing wear; >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > journals are in good shape this can let you get many more miles out of > an engine. so what good is replacing the pump if the journals are worn? it's not going to un-wear them. >>> easy enough to fix when caught early >> >> so how exactly do /you/ propose to fix lower oil pressure??? i want >> details of what you think it involves. > > See above. explain why you think it achieves anything!!! >>> but letting it go can result in a full engine rebuild, at which point >>> it may no longer be economical to maintain the car any longer. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Balls. You may be able to get a *different* engine for your Honda for > $300, but it ain't new. it's "new" to the vehicle, low mileage from japan. and having worked on these engines, [zc cam, remember?] i can tell you for fact, they're a screamingly excellent deal. sure beats f.cking about with re-grinds and re-bores when you find out that the shop doesn't know what they're doing and the rebuild only lasts 50k. try that on the 944 motor and tell me how long it lasts! >>>>>>> Are you saying that, for example, Lexus cars are a complete waste >>>>>>> of money? 'Cuz, those same people who aren't maintaining their [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > day, it's 50psi. what are you going to do? at what pressure do the > bearings hydrodynamically separate? does the gauge tell you? no, but the FSM will give you guidelines, or simply go by the general rule of thumb that you need 10 PSI for every 1K RPM to safely operate an engine under load. >>> and the gauges you /could/ fit to a car need to be interpreted. >>> without baseline research data, they're useless. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > at what pressure to the bearings hydrodynamically separate? see above. Will your idiot light tell you if your oil pressure is suddenly 30 PSI at 6000 RPM? >>>> Two examples already given are cooling fan problems >>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > are you trying to be funny? No, I'm trying to make a point, which is apparently sailing right over your head. >>> and you can hear whether they're working if it's not. that's not too >>> hard is it? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > what does the gauge tell you? what's the delta between fan on, and fan > off??? Comes on about 92C IIRC and shuts off at a slightly lower temp. >>>> and main/rod bearing wear; >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > so what good is replacing the pump if the journals are worn? it's not > going to un-wear them. I'm not talking about replacing the pump, I'm talking about replacing the bearing shells with either new stock ones or .001 undersize if necessary. If this is done before the engine is severely worn, the journals will still be in good shape. If the journals pass the "penny test" and mic OK why wouldn't you slap in $40 worth of bearings as opposed to paying for a complete rebuild? >>>> easy enough to fix when caught early >>> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > explain why you think it achieves anything!!! Because it does. I've done it on at least one car (Corrado G60) which remained in daily use for years afterwards with no issues. Apparently VW used a new experimental rod bearing that was supposed to be heavier duty than the ones they'd been using for earlier cars, and it turned out to be *less* durable. Once the car started showing signs of needing new rod bearings, I simply took an afternoon and replaced the bearing shells. It took about as long to repaint the oil pan as it did to do the rest of the job (had I realized that brand new pans were like $20 I might have popped for one of those instead...) >>>> but letting it go can result in a full engine rebuild, at which >>>> point it may no longer be economical to maintain the car any longer. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > and the rebuild only lasts 50k. try that on the 944 motor and tell me > how long it lasts! I'll be sure to let you know whenever it *does* need a rebuild... but at the mileage I put on the car it'll be a genuine antique before it gets to that point, likely. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel > > ok, so you fit a gauge, and it shows oil pressure of 51psi. then one > > day, it's 50psi. what are you going to do? at what pressure do the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > rule of thumb that you need 10 PSI for every 1K RPM to safely operate an > engine under load. Ummmmmmm.....and you expect your grandmother to know what this means or remember it? You expect the ditzy 16yo girl in her new Rabbit convertible full of friends to know this, to remember it, and to be scanning the dashboard full of gauges--remember what each one is, knowing what it means, knowing what the rules are for each one, adn so on--instead of gabbing with her friends or on the cell phone??? You are SO out of reality, it's not funny. YOU want a dashboard that looks like a 747 full of gauges, when the reality is that the buying public wouldn't and couldn't use them, and would not spend the money for them on that basis. > Will your idiot light tell you if your oil pressure is suddenly 30 PSI > at 6000 RPM? If the computer is properly programmed to understand a VERY WIDE range of parameters and how to interpret them, and to know that this sudden pressure is abnormal, yes. it's far easier for the programmers to come up with a program one time than to try to hold a "internal combustion engine principles of operation" class to train your grandmother and your neighbor's ditzy 16yo girl to know what each of those gauges means and any rules of thumb regarding them. >>Will your idiot light tell you if your oil pressure is suddenly 30 PSI >>at 6000 RPM? > > If the computer is properly programmed to understand a VERY WIDE range > of parameters and how to interpret them, and to know that this sudden > pressure is abnormal, yes. I'm not sure how often this is done. I know that VW used to have a "dynamic oil pressure monitoring system" which used a little circuit in the instrument panel to switch between two oil pressure switches based on engine speed. It generally caused more false alarms than anything else. > it's far easier for the programmers to come up with a program one time > than to try to hold a "internal combustion engine principles of > operation" class to train your grandmother and your neighbor's ditzy > 16yo girl to know what each of those gauges means and any rules of thumb > regarding them. I trust my eyes more than I trust someone to actually take the time to do that properly. And if I see a simple open/closed oil pressure switch, I *know* that that hasn't been done. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel > > it's far easier for the programmers to come up with a program one time > > than to try to hold a "internal combustion engine principles of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I trust my eyes more than I trust someone to actually take the time to > do that properly. YOU trust YOUR eyes. Ain't that nice. You are also, by definition, trusting not only the gauges but the sensors. There are plenty of failure points here. Back to the point: YOU trust YOUR eyes more than you trust the programmers to write a program to watch all the sensors and to have a map of various parameters that will tell when the SYSTEM is out of normal range. That's what you're saying? That's a choice, and as jim says you ENJOY doing all this stuff--therefore much of your choice is, indeed, based on recreation. You seem not to want to acknowledge that the car buying public doesn't get its rocks off by watching a 747 dash full of gauges like you do. They don't want to watch, they don't care to know. YOU are definitely within the minority. And the economics of the situation have spoken: if YOU want those gauges, then YOU add them. It would be silly to force a 747 dash full of gauges on the buying public, virtually all of whom would be turned off by them and would refuse to pay for them. You keep harping on detail items, while completely ignoring the reality of the outside world. Yes, I said outside world. There's a huge world outside your lab, Dr. Brown, full of people doing things that have nothing to do with knowing how an ICE works or what rules of thumb one should use for an oil gauge or a water temp gauge or a cylinder head temp gauge (that would be one per piston, right?). They drive cars EVERY DAY, they do so successfully, and they have the expectation that they DO NOT NEED to be YOU, Dr. Brown, just in order to drive a car. The car manufacturers are catering to those people, because those people represent 99.99% of the market. It makes ZERO sense for Ford to give a sh.t that you want the 747 dashboard full of gauges. >>> it's far easier for the programmers to come up with a program one time >>> than to try to hold a "internal combustion engine principles of [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > represent 99.99% of the market. It makes ZERO sense for Ford to give a > sh.t that you want the 747 dashboard full of gauges. and even then, once all that is done in prototyping, and it is, there's no point in replicating it if it stays in spec for the life of the vehicle. if it doesn't, the motor's f.cked, and a gauge wouldn't have prevented it. >>>>>>>> Are you saying that, for example, Lexus cars are a complete >>>>>>>> waste of money? 'Cuz, those same people who aren't maintaining [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > rule of thumb that you need 10 PSI for every 1K RPM to safely operate an > engine under load. so you're guessing? that's useful! >>>> and the gauges you /could/ fit to a car need to be interpreted. >>>> without baseline research data, they're useless. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Will your idiot light tell you if your oil pressure is suddenly 30 PSI > at 6000 RPM? when it's drops lower, it'll tell you that the engine's f.cked. but it was by that stage anyway! >>>>> Two examples already given are cooling fan problems >>>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > No, I'm trying to make a point, which is apparently sailing right over > your head. so spell it out - if you have a point. >>>> and you can hear whether they're working if it's not. that's not >>>> too hard is it? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Comes on about 92C IIRC and shuts off at a slightly lower temp. so what does the gauge tell you??? >>>>> and main/rod bearing wear; >>>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > test" and mic OK why wouldn't you slap in $40 worth of bearings as > opposed to paying for a complete rebuild? that's removal and strip-down. and it's utterly freakin' pointless to do all that work unless you make a proper job of it. and btw, new journals, or worse, undersizing, is a pretty damned useless waste of money if the journal is ovalized - and that's very much typical. undersizing in that situation is actually going to cause a lot of problems, not solve them. >>>>> easy enough to fix when caught early >>>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Because it does. brilliant!!! > I've done it on at least one car (Corrado G60) which > remained in daily use for years afterwards with no issues. it probably would have anyway! > Apparently > VW used a new experimental rod bearing that was supposed to be heavier > duty than the ones they'd been using for earlier cars, and it turned out > to be *less* durable. Once the car started showing signs and the signs were? > of needing new > rod bearings, I simply took an afternoon and replaced the bearing > shells. It took about as long to repaint the oil pan as it did to do > the rest of the job (had I realized that brand new pans were like $20 I > might have popped for one of those instead...) so you replaced the connecting rod bearings, but not the crank bearings??? and with what did you replace them? >>>>> but letting it go can result in a full engine rebuild, at which >>>>> point it may no longer be economical to maintain the car any longer. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > the mileage I put on the car it'll be a genuine antique before it gets > to that point, likely. cop-out. >>>>>>>>> Are you saying that, for example, Lexus cars are a complete >>>>>>>>> waste of money? 'Cuz, those same people who aren't maintaining [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > so you're guessing? that's useful! My "guess" is far better than the info. you will get from a factory idiot light. >>>>> and the gauges you /could/ fit to a car need to be interpreted. >>>>> without baseline research data, they're useless. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > when it's drops lower, it'll tell you that the engine's f.cked. but it > was by that stage anyway! But you can shut it down immediately in the gauge scenario to limit the collateral damage. You really want to wait until a con rod makes a new ventilation hole in the block? That'll turn a "rebuild" into a "crate engine" real quick. >>>>>> Two examples already given are cooling fan problems >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > so spell it out - if you have a point. That gauges really do add value for a minimally clueful operator. >>>>> and you can hear whether they're working if it's not. that's not >>>>> too hard is it? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > so what does the gauge tell you??? It lets me either confirm that the thermoswitch is working correctly - or when I see the temperature significantly above 92C and don't hear the fan running that either the thermostat or thermoswitch has failed and I need to investigate farther before doing any more driving with that car. >>>>>> and main/rod bearing wear; >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > that's removal and strip-down. and it's utterly freakin' pointless to > do all that work unless you make a proper job of it. It's not a lot of work at all. Drop oil pan, remove oil pump, replace shells. Assembly is the reverse, etc. Don't have to pull or even lift the engine on many cars esp. FWD ones. > and btw, new journals, or worse, undersizing, is a pretty damned useless > waste of money if the journal is ovalized - and that's very much > typical. undersizing in that situation is actually going to cause a lot > of problems, not solve them. It's easy enough to confirm or deny this with a simple mic. >>>>>> easy enough to fix when caught early >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > it probably would have anyway! Would you be willing to take that chance? Especially if it wasn't *your* car but someone else's, someone you cared about? >> Apparently VW used a new experimental rod bearing that was supposed >> to be heavier duty than the ones they'd been using for earlier cars, >> and it turned out to be *less* durable. Once the car started showing >> signs > > and the signs were? In this case, since VW did *not* fit an oil pressure gauge, it was the classic sound of rods rattling on overrun at about 2500-3K RPM. >> of needing new rod bearings, I simply took an afternoon and replaced >> the bearing shells. It took about as long to repaint the oil pan as [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > so you replaced the connecting rod bearings, but not the crank > bearings??? and with what did you replace them? Yup, no sense replacing parts that weren't bad. I simply replaced them with standard size new shells, using the old, standard bearing construction rather than the G60-specific experimental construction that had proved problematic. >>>>>> but letting it go can result in a full engine rebuild, at which >>>>>> point it may no longer be economical to maintain the car any longer. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > cop-out. What difference does it make, anyway? So JDM engines are available for cheap for your particular car, and not for mine. What does that have to do with the desirability of being able to keep track of a few basic operating parameters of an engine? nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel >>>>>>>>>> Are you saying that, for example, Lexus cars are a complete >>>>>>>>>> waste of money? 'Cuz, those same people who aren't [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > ventilation hole in the block? That'll turn a "rebuild" into a "crate > engine" real quick. a spun bearing is not a thrown rod. rods throw because the cap bolts fatigue, or much more rarely, because a rod fatigues. bearings or oil pressure have nothing to do with that kind of failure. >>>>>>> Two examples already given are cooling fan problems >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > That gauges really do add value for a minimally clueful operator. but you don't have a clue unless you have the test data for that engine. so even if you install an aftermarket gauge, you're still in the dark. >>>>>> and you can hear whether they're working if it's not. that's not >>>>>> too hard is it? [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > fan running that either the thermostat or thermoswitch has failed and I > need to investigate farther before doing any more driving with that car. but listening for the fan is much more effective! no gauge required. >>>>>>> and main/rod bearing wear; >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > shells. Assembly is the reverse, etc. Don't have to pull or even lift > the engine on many cars esp. FWD ones. again, it's utterly freakin' pointless unless you do a proper job of it. >> and btw, new journals, or worse, undersizing, is a pretty damned >> useless waste of money if the journal is ovalized - and that's very >> much typical. undersizing in that situation is actually going to >> cause a lot of problems, not solve them. > > It's easy enough to confirm or deny this with a simple mic. ok, let me spell it out - ovalizing is the norm. replacing a bearing does nothing to fix that. and putting a new bearing onto an ovalized journal can cause more problems than it solves because there is too much direct contact and the bearing can spin. >>>>>>> easy enough to fix when caught early >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Would you be willing to take that chance? Especially if it wasn't > *your* car but someone else's, someone you cared about? dude, if the pressure suddenly drops, the motor's f.cked. if it gradually drops, when it reaches light-on, the motor's f.cked. deal with it. >>> Apparently VW used a new experimental rod bearing that was supposed >>> to be heavier duty than the ones they'd been using for earlier cars, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > In this case, since VW did *not* fit an oil pressure gauge, it was the > classic sound of rods rattling on overrun at about 2500-3K RPM. and there's nothing any gauge could have done to prevent that! and the telltale is the noise, not the pressure. >>> of needing new rod bearings, I simply took an afternoon and replaced >>> the bearing shells. It took about as long to repaint the oil pan as [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > construction rather than the G60-specific experimental construction that > had proved problematic. "experimental" is not used in production, it's used in the lab. if it was different or substandard, that's not "experimental". >>>>>>> but letting it go can result in a full engine rebuild, at which >>>>>>> point it may no longer be economical to maintain the car any longer. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > do with the desirability of being able to keep track of a few basic > operating parameters of an engine? you're tracking nothing and to no effect. if the bearings wear, watching an oil gauge does *nothing* to prevent it, you simply get to watch in technicolor. and replacing arbitrary bearings is pretty much pointless if the fundamentals of the engine design got the bearings to wear prematurely in the first place. bottom line nate, every point of your argument is that of recreational activity, not real-world vehicle operation. >>>>>>>>>>> Are you saying that, for example, Lexus cars are a complete >>>>>>>>>>> waste of money? 'Cuz, those same people who aren't [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > fatigue, or much more rarely, because a rod fatigues. bearings or oil > pressure have nothing to do with that kind of failure. You mean to tell me that a spun bearing is NEVER the precursor to a rod failure? Geez... >>>>>>>> Two examples already given are cooling fan problems >>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > but you don't have a clue unless you have the test data for that engine. > so even if you install an aftermarket gauge, you're still in the dark. *I'm* not... they tell me useful info. And I *do* have access to the FSM - for ALL of my cars. >>>>>>> and you can hear whether they're working if it's not. that's not >>>>>>> too hard is it? [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > but listening for the fan is much more effective! no gauge required. How do I know when I'm supposed to be listening for the fan without a gauge? I don't. >>>>>>>> and main/rod bearing wear; >>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > again, it's utterly freakin' pointless unless you do a proper job of it. Unless it solves the problem and allows you to keep driving for a modest cost for several more years. >>> and btw, new journals, or worse, undersizing, is a pretty damned >>> useless waste of money if the journal is ovalized - and that's very [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > journal can cause more problems than it solves because there is too much > direct contact and the bearing can spin. My experience has been that in the car bearing replacements, while admittedly a doglick fix, do sometimes provide a real benefit if the rest of the engine is in good condition. >>>>>>>> easy enough to fix when caught early >>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > gradually drops, when it reaches light-on, the motor's f.cked. deal > with it. And I *am* dealing with it. You, apparently, are willing to wait until the engine starts making terminal noises to even discover that there is a problem. I would prefer a little warning so I don't end up hitchhiking. >>>> Apparently VW used a new experimental rod bearing that was supposed >>>> to be heavier duty than the ones they'd been using for earlier cars, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > and there's nothing any gauge could have done to prevent that! and the > telltale is the noise, not the pressure. Actually both. The gauge, however, would have given an indication of the problem earlier than the noise. >>>> of needing new rod bearings, I simply took an afternoon and replaced >>>> the bearing shells. It took about as long to repaint the oil pan as [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > "experimental" is not used in production, it's used in the lab. if it > was different or substandard, that's not "experimental". I consider them "experimental" as in "not ready for prime time." Just like the entire G-Lader. The whole damn car was VW's beta test for the A3 platform and as fun as it is, it shows. >>>>>>>> but letting it go can result in a full engine rebuild, at which >>>>>>>> point it may no longer be economical to maintain the car any [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > pointless if the fundamentals of the engine design got the bearings to > wear prematurely in the first place. If the rest of the engine is in good condition but the engine is a known bearing-eater, wouldn't you want to know when your bearings are starting to go so that you could replace them ASAP and prevent the necessity of an expensive full rebuild? > bottom line nate, every point of your argument is that of recreational > activity, not real-world vehicle operation. Hmm, I guess those must have been recreational roads that I've been driving all my vehicles on. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel >>>>>>>>>>>> Are you saying that, for example, Lexus cars are a complete >>>>>>>>>>>> waste of money? 'Cuz, those same people who aren't [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > You mean to tell me that a spun bearing is NEVER the precursor to a rod > failure? Geez... have you ever analyzed a thrown rod? cap bolt fatigue is not bearing failure. >>>>>>>>> Two examples already given are cooling fan problems >>>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > *I'm* not... they tell me useful info. And I *do* have access to the > FSM - for ALL of my cars. as do i. and the only data you have is an acceptable range for idle, and a range for operating rpms. there is no /real/ data like oil pressure vs. temp, grade, "x" miles, etc. all that matters is that you get hydrodynamic separation, and no gauge is telling you that without a much more specific data map. >>>>>>>> and you can hear whether they're working if it's not. that's >>>>>>>> not too hard is it? [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > How do I know when I'm supposed to be listening for the fan without a > gauge? I don't. how can you tell /with/ a gauge??? fan operation doesn't show on the gauge. >>>>>>>>> and main/rod bearing wear; >>>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Unless it solves the problem and allows you to keep driving for a modest > cost for several more years. so you did a controlled test comparing the two? again, bearing replacement does nothing to cure ovalization. >>>> and btw, new journals, or worse, undersizing, is a pretty damned >>>> useless waste of money if the journal is ovalized - and that's very [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > admittedly a doglick fix, do sometimes provide a real benefit if the > rest of the engine is in good condition. so you've done controlled testing and comparisons? >>>>>>>>> easy enough to fix when caught early >>>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > the engine starts making terminal noises to even discover that there is > a problem. I would prefer a little warning so I don't end up hitchhiking. no, all you're doing is stopping at the side of the road earlier than i am. i may get home. and it's going to make no difference to repair costs if the motor's already f.cked. >>>>> Apparently VW used a new experimental rod bearing that was >>>>> supposed to be heavier duty than the ones they'd been using for [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Actually both. The gauge, however, would have given an indication of > the problem earlier than the noise. "would"??? how exactly "would" a gauge prevent the bearing problem??? >>>>> of needing new rod bearings, I simply took an afternoon and >>>>> replaced the bearing shells. It took about as long to repaint the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > I consider them "experimental" as in "not ready for prime time." oh. so we can all rest easy then. > Just > like the entire G-Lader. The whole damn car was VW's beta test for the [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > to go so that you could replace them ASAP and prevent the necessity of > an expensive full rebuild? any engine that's a "known bearing eater" is a p.o.s. because it's got a design problem. band-aiding bearings is a waste of time in that situation. >> bottom line nate, every point of your argument is that of recreational >> activity, not real-world vehicle operation. > > Hmm, I guess those must have been recreational roads that I've been > driving all my vehicles on. dude, everything you describe is recreational. if you have the time and you don't price that time, go ahead and enjoy. but it's not real world, so please don't argue as if it is. thanks. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you saying that, for example, Lexus cars >>>>>>>>>>>>> are a complete waste of money? 'Cuz, those [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > have you ever analyzed a thrown rod? cap bolt fatigue is not bearing > failure. But bearing failure could easily lead to increased stresses on the bolts through several mechanisms. In fact, I owned one car that had a rod knock that actually did throw a rod. (old beater BMW) An oil pressure gauge would have told me much earlier that there was an issue - the car also had an exhaust leak, and I didn't realize that there was an issue until I had the exhaust repaired. >>>>>>>>>> Two examples already given are cooling fan problems >>>>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > you get hydrodynamic separation, and no gauge is telling you that > without a much more specific data map. But you can tell easily when the OP is different than you've been lead to expect from previous use of the car, especially when it's significantly lower. Whether or not that actually means that the oil film is compromised is irrelevant, the issue is that something bad has happened. Better that you do catch it before actual mechanical damage is done. >>>>>>>>> and you can hear whether they're working if it's not. >>>>>>>>> that's not too hard is it? [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > how can you tell /with/ a gauge??? Easy. I look at the gauge and see if the temperature is above or below the temperature at which the fan is supposed to activate. > fan operation doesn't show on the gauge. Now I think you're just being deliberately obtuse. I'm talking about sitting at a stop light. The temperature gauge starts creeping up. At some point you should hear a "click" from the relay box, and the cooling fan should come on. Without a gauge, however, if you don't hear that click/whir, you don't have a clue as to whether the engine simply hasn't heated up to the point where the fan should come on yet, or if it's getting good and hot and there's an actual fault, either in the thermostat or the cooling fan control circuit. *WITH* a gauge, you aren't guessing; you KNOW. >>>>>>>>>> and main/rod bearing wear; >>>>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > so you did a controlled test comparing the two? again, bearing > replacement does nothing to cure ovalization. No, I fixed an old car that according to you probably needed a full engine rebuild. >>>>> and btw, new journals, or worse, undersizing, is a pretty >>>>> damned useless waste of money if the journal is ovalized - [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > so you've done controlled testing and comparisons? No, as I said, I FIXED an old car that according to you needed a new engine. >>>>>>>>>> easy enough to fix when caught early >>>>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > i am. i may get home. and it's going to make no difference to > repair costs if the motor's already f.cked. It most certainly does. Regrinding a usable crank is cheaper than buying a new one or paying to have one welded up. Resizing your existing con rods is cheaper than buying new ones. Reboring a block is cheaper than buying a new one. etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum. >>>>>> Apparently VW used a new experimental rod bearing that was >>>>>> supposed to be heavier duty than the ones they'd been [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > "would"??? how exactly "would" a gauge prevent the bearing > problem??? Again, I think you're being deliberately dumb to keep this conversation going, for what purpose, I don't know. >>>>>> of needing new rod bearings, I simply took an afternoon and >>>>>> replaced the bearing shells. It took about as long to [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > got a design problem. band-aiding bearings is a waste of time in > that situation. well, see, generally you don't *know* that a design is a "bearing eater" until it's been in service for quite a few years. So you might buy one inadvertantly, based on the reliability record of its predecessors. And repairing a problem and allowing you to continue using the machine for many more miles without any problems is *not* a waste of time. >>> bottom line nate, every point of your argument is that of >>> recreational activity, not real-world vehicle operation. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > and you don't price that time, go ahead and enjoy. but it's not real > world, so please don't argue as if it is. thanks. I'm living in a fake world now? nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel > > fan operation doesn't show on the gauge. > > Now I think you're just being deliberately obtuse. I'm talking about > sitting at a stop light. The temperature gauge starts creeping up. At > some point you should hear a "click" from the relay box, and the cooling > fan should come on. Are you honestly telling me that the car buying public operates their cars on this basis? Fact: they don't. On Apr 27, 3:52 pm, "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <el...@nastydesigns.com> wrote: > In article <fv2kqf02...@news2.newsguy.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Fact: they don't. I'd never allow anyone to borrow one of my vehicles that didn't know enough to at least watch the gauges at that superficial a level. nate In article <efb69f8f-755d-4bf1-92ba-04880248069d@b64g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, > > > Now I think you're just being deliberately obtuse. I'm talking about > > > sitting at a stop light. The temperature gauge starts creeping up. At [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I'd never allow anyone to borrow one of my vehicles that didn't know > enough to at least watch the gauges at that superficial a level. Great, but the manufacturers and car dealers are happy to sell to those people. >> > fan operation doesn't show on the gauge. >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Fact: they don't. That's not my fault. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." 8< > But bearing failure could easily lead to increased stresses on the bolts > through several mechanisms. In fact, I owned one car that had a rod > knock that actually did throw a rod. no dude, it knocked because a bolt was letting go. once it was gone, the rod threw. that's not a bearing problem. 8< > But you can tell easily when the OP is different than you've been lead > to expect from previous use of the car, especially when it's > significantly lower. Whether or not that actually means that the oil > film is compromised is irrelevant, "irrelevant"??? dude, that is /so/ wrong. 8< > Easy. I look at the gauge and see if the temperature is above or below > the temperature at which the fan is supposed to activate. but it doesn't show anything until it's /way/ above activation. that doesn't help you per your argument. 8< > Now I think you're just being deliberately obtuse. I'm talking about > sitting at a stop light. The temperature gauge starts creeping up. At [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > thermostat or the cooling fan control circuit. *WITH* a gauge, you > aren't guessing; you KNOW. absolutely not - the gauge stays rock steady during the whole on-off delta. http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/2445120839/ 8< > No, I fixed an old car that according to you probably needed a full > engine rebuild. no, you wasted money on band-aiding something that probably failed at the same point as it would have anyway. 8< > No, as I said, I FIXED an old car that according to you needed a new > engine. you band-aided, you didn't fix. 8< > > It most certainly does. Regrinding a usable crank is cheaper than > buying a new one or paying to have one welded up. Resizing your > existing con rods is cheaper than buying new ones. Reboring a block is > cheaper than buying a new one. etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum. dude, labor is expensive. it takes many hours to rebuild a motor. to get it done to a high standard is going to cost you thousands. a new one, factory new, for my car, is $3,640. once you factor in time to replace, and down time, - i.e. you get the new motor shipped in, take the old one out, fit the new one, and drive away vs. having the vehicle occupy shop space stripped down for a few weeks while the motor gets done, then replacing new - it becomes much more economic. factor in superior reliability and longevity, and it becomes more economic still. or you can pay ~$300 for jdm. 8< > Again, I think you're being deliberately dumb to keep this conversation > going, for what purpose, I don't know. dude, i'm serious. how can a gauge /prevent/ a bearing going? it can't. all it does is give you an increased chance of seeing that it's about to go, but it can't prevent it. > 8< > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > no dude, it knocked because a bolt was letting go. once it was gone, > the rod threw. that's not a bearing problem. Maybe, maybe not. I didn't do a postmortem, as it was a 3.5l straight six, which "never go" so junkyard motors were readily available. And the car wasn't worth more than a junkyard motor. > 8< > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > "irrelevant"??? dude, that is /so/ wrong. That's where you're just not getting it - *any* anomaly is relevant. When you see an anomaly, you need to figure out why the anomaly occurred, *before* you have an actual failure. > 8< > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > but it doesn't show anything until it's /way/ above activation. that > doesn't help you per your argument. What do you mean? I can sit there at a stop light, watch the gauge creep up to about 210-ish, fan kicks in, temp quickly drops back to 195ish. That's the difference between 3/4 of the way through the "normal" bar and 1/4 of the "normal" bar on my 944. If it ever creeps over 3/4 without the fan kicking in, that's an issue. And yes, I *did* detect a bad fan thermoswitch that way, before the car ever actually overheated. Was maybe $20 and some coolant to fix, as opposed to an expensive head gasket job. > 8< > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/2445120839/ No it doesn't. Not with a finely calibrated gauge. What you show is not the behavior of a real gauge. I don't deny that some mfgrs. may adopt that strategy to avoid extraneous comments from idiots, but that is a failure of education and IMHO the wrong way to handle the issue. Apparently Porsche does not subscribe to this philosophy, which is one of many reasons that I remain partial to their cars. > 8< > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > no, you wasted money on band-aiding something that probably failed at > the same point as it would have anyway. That explains why it was driven for 4-5 years afterwards as primary transportation. > 8< > >> No, as I said, I FIXED an old car that according to you needed a new >> engine. > > you band-aided, you didn't fix. See above. > 8< > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > done, then replacing new - it becomes much more economic. factor in > superior reliability and longevity, and it becomes more economic still. Depends on what car we're talking about. For some older vehicles, your options may be "junkyard" (either in the sense of "roll the dice and acquire used engine from" or "start searching the classifieds and send what's left of car to") or "rebuild." > or you can pay ~$300 for jdm. That's all well and good, *if* you have a popular Japanese car and *if* it is new enough that there's still a good supply of JDM engines. > 8< > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > can't. all it does is give you an increased chance of seeing that it's > about to go, but it can't prevent it. And that's not important? Say, if you're planning a long road trip halfway across the country, wouldn't it be nice to have that information *before* you left, rather than discover it the hard way halfway between Cleveland and Toledo? Heck, I had an alternator fail on me once in just such a situation. It was a royal PITA and quite expensive to boot. Had I a proper voltmeter in that car, I might have seen some signs of that before I took off from Detroit heading to Annapolis, and saved me an expen$ive tow, repair bill, and hotel room by having the issue rectified before I left. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel >> 8< >> [quoted text clipped - 106 lines] > acquire used engine from" or "start searching the classifieds and send > what's left of car to") or "rebuild." Or, buy a rebuilt engine. People in Mexico have been rebuilding for cheap for decades. Labor is cheap there. They buy bearings, rings, etc., in bulk. And they have a pretty good warranty. Just buy the engine, swap it out when it comes, and return the old one. You can also buy a rebuilt engine at AutoZone and other retailers, although I would be leary of the quality. Jeff >> or you can pay ~$300 for jdm. > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > nate >> 8< >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Maybe, maybe not. I didn't do a postmortem, ok, let's get this straight: i. your experience count is 1. ii. you didn't determine the cause of failure. but you still feel qualified to lecture on bearing failure? i'm done - this thread is a f.cking joke. >>> 8< >>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > but you still feel qualified to lecture on bearing failure? i'm done - > this thread is a f.cking joke. I'm not lecturing on bearing failure at all. Simply pointing out various situations that I've been in where either gauges have helped me or, if they'd been present (but they weren't) *could* have helped me. Why you can't seem to understand that they are valuable tools that give you important information on the health of your car's engine is beyond me, even though we both can at least agree that many drivers do treat them as if they're simply wallpaper. Door, butt, etc. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel >>>> 8< >>>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > me, even though we both can at least agree that many drivers do treat > them as if they're simply wallpaper. keep on deluding yourself. fact: no gauge can /prevent/ bearing failure. it can [debateably] offer you the opportunity to stop driving it, but the value of that is questionable. and you still need to undertake expensive surgery, regardless. > Door, butt, etc. get some more schooling and experience kiddo. >>>>> 8< >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > it, but the value of that is questionable. and you still need to > undertake expensive surgery, regardless. Not just bearing failure. Also other kinds of failures that may be positively inexpensive and easy to rectify that could *lead to* the expensive kind of failures if left as is. >> Door, butt, etc. > > get some more schooling and experience kiddo. I may not be the oldest guy on this group, but I've logged lots of miles driving cars that many people would consider well past their "best before" date and/or were self-assembled, so I have a pretty good handle on what I want to see on a dashboard to feel comfortable with a machine. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel > I may not be the oldest guy on this group, but I've logged lots of miles > driving cars that many people would consider well past their "best > before" date and/or were self-assembled, so I have a pretty good handle > on what I want to see on a dashboard to feel comfortable with a machine. Now we get to the crux of the matter: you're driving older cars, in some cases seriously older cars, and you know that as cars age they develop quirks. And you know that to keep driving them as they age, you need a 747 cockpit full of instrumentation. That's way, WAY different than the original proposition that "cars need gauges". That's way, WAY different than the neighbor's ditzy 16yo daughter driving the new Rabbit convertible that daddy just bought her. Way, WAY different. >>I may not be the oldest guy on this group, but I've logged lots of miles >>driving cars that many people would consider well past their "best [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Way, WAY different. As I recall, the Wabbit 'verts came with the usual Wabbit gauge package (speedo, tach, fuel, water temp,) plus a voltmeter, oil pressure, and oil temp gauge in front of the shifter. Even better than the A1 GTI which got a damn clock instead of the oil pressure gauge. So I'm not sure where you're going with this :P nate (if I were a real jerk, I'd point out that the last Wabbit was made in 1984, and the last A1 chassis Cabby was made in 1993, so the newest car you could call a "Rabbit Convertible" probably falls into the category of "well past their best before date" <G> but if you know of any you want to get rid of, I still have a good sized stash of cool VW parts looking for a builder chassis... Why the hell did I sell my Scirocco?) Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel > (if I were a real jerk, I'd point out that the last Wabbit was made in > 1984, and the last A1 chassis Cabby was made in 1993, so the newest car > you could call a "Rabbit Convertible" probably falls into the category > of "well past their best before date" Ah, then you DON'T pay any attention to the actual auto market: http://www.vw.com/rabbit/en/us/ It seems your grasp of the world outside your house is weak. >>(if I were a real jerk, I'd point out that the last Wabbit was made in >>1984, and the last A1 chassis Cabby was made in 1993, so the newest car [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > It seems your grasp of the world outside your house is weak. There is no A5 Golf/Wabbit 'vert; not sure if there is one in the works (VW seems to let 'vert introductions lag behind model intros, although if they were true to pattern there *would* be one) since they already have the Eos and the New Beetle Cabriolet, although the latter is probably going to be discontinued eventually unless VW chooses to revise the NB (a NNB?) as the chassis it is currently built on is obsolete. Speaking of which, why have I seen appx. two Eoses outside of my local VW dealer? It's really a rather appealing little car if you're not interested in ultimate performance but are simply looking for something to tool around in with a removable top. Too bad it's not available with a TDI, then it'd be practical and economical as well. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel > >>(if I were a real jerk, I'd point out that the last Wabbit was made in > >>1984, and the last A1 chassis Cabby was made in 1993, so the newest car [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > There is no A5 Golf/Wabbit 'vert; not sure if there is one in the works The point remains, the last Wabbit was made....3 minutes ago, not in 1984. And your grasp of the ACTUAL world outside your lab, Dr. Brown, is weak. The fact remains, people don't want the gauges, and the fact that cars of all kinds and ages are driving around is proof that people don't need the gauges. The ditzy 16yo girl next door wouldn't know what to do with the gauges (except complain about them) if she had them. Hell, she might not even complain, 'cuz she wouldn't even know they were there--she's too busy doing other things. On Apr 28, 3:24 am, "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <el...@nastydesigns.com> wrote: > In article <fv3abv01...@news2.newsguy.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > complain, 'cuz she wouldn't even know they were there--she's too busy > doing other things. *Knowledgeable* people still want gauges, or something that provides the same functionality as gauges. Thus if "most" people don't want them that is a reflection on the consumer, not the product. If I see a car with only a speedo and fuel gauge, that says to me that the manufacturer is aiming that vehicle at consumers of appliances, not knowledgeable car buyers, and I tend to look elsewhere. nate In article <af90a84c-2a23-4a1c-89d4-63ed11c6016b@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, > > And your grasp of the ACTUAL world outside your lab, Dr. Brown, is weak. > > The fact remains, people don't want the gauges, and the fact that cars [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > *Knowledgeable* people still want gauges, or something that provides > the same functionality as gauges. MARKETING companies market to the masses--which, in this country, are the ignorant. Gauges cost money. They're in the business to make profits, which means selling goods, which means selling goods at prices the public wants to pay. Plainly, the market has spoken--and it's not full of knowledgeable people who want gauges. If you want gauges, put them on yourself. In the meantime, the carmakers will make what sells. Period. That's my whole point. Whether a gauge is useful or not in terms of providing any given individual, is meaningless. What's meaningful is what sells in mass quantities. Period. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: let the three knowledgeable people who want the gauges, install the gauges for themselves. In the meantime, the carmakers will market to Daddy's ditzy 16yo daughter by providing something she wants and not providing something she doesn't want. She doesn't want to spend money on gauges she'll never understand, and the carmakers don't want to spend money on gauges that'll never be used. She represents the car buying public. The engineer types who want gauges do NOT represent the car buying public. I don't know how to make that clearer. On Apr 28, 9:29 am, "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <el...@nastydesigns.com> wrote: > In article > <af90a84c-2a23-4a1c-89d4-63ed11c60...@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > gauges do NOT represent the car buying public. I don't know how to make > that clearer. I understand your point. The main reason I've kept posting to this thread is not to try to refute your assertion that most consumers are ignorant - I'd probably have a hard time with that. The assertion that another poster - not you - made that the gauges actually provide no useful information to the operator is what I have a problem with. They most certainly *do* provide useful information - whether or not the operator pays attention to them. I'll just keep buying cars that came properly equipped from the factory (with rare exceptions, like the F-150, to which I did in fact add my own gauges) and if the mfgrs. aren't marketing their vehicles towards me, well I won't buy their products. I would think, though, that even to an ignorant consumer, the gauges would be perceived as an "upscale" addition to any vehicle. Certainly there are many fairly pedestrian vehicles that come with a tachometer even with an automatic transmission, which is about the least useful gauge possible for the 90+ percent of the people that will be driving those vehicles who will never move the lever past "D." nate In article <a8437ceb-1a90-4129-96b9-bfcdaa3987dd@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, > I would think, though, that even to an ignorant consumer, the gauges > would be perceived as an "upscale" addition to any vehicle. Well, not exactly. The Prius, for example, attracts geekheads who like the Smart Key System nav/bluetooth, etc. It has zero instrumentation (face it, it's a rolling computer--it takes care of itself and shuts itself down if ever needed), yet most people who buy it consider its features to be "upscale". The typical Porsche/Corvette gold chain crowd expects gauges, but only because the number of gauges is a factor in their perceived dick size. They have no idea how to use the car AT ALL, let alone the gauges, but hey--when you have $100K to spend on a boutique car that's used for the express purpose of showing everyone that you have $100K to spend on a car, it had better look like more than a Prius. "Upscale" changes definition with car category. >In article ><a8437ceb-1a90-4129-96b9-bfcdaa3987dd@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >itself down if ever needed), yet most people who buy it consider its >features to be "upscale". I thought those hybrids could call up all sorts of stuff on those displays they put in them.... especially the real time mpg calculator... >The typical Porsche/Corvette gold chain crowd expects gauges, but only >because the number of gauges is a factor in their perceived dick size. >They have no idea how to use the car AT ALL, let alone the gauges, but >hey--when you have $100K to spend on a boutique car that's used for the >express purpose of showing everyone that you have $100K to spend on a >car, it had better look like more than a Prius. Um, the Germans actually put the gauges in to be used in the home market. > >The typical Porsche/Corvette gold chain crowd expects gauges, but only > >because the number of gauges is a factor in their perceived dick size. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Um, the Germans actually put the gauges in to be used in the home > market. Does the home market BMW also get an oil dipstick? Or does the home market suffer from a lack of that just like the US market does? >> >The typical Porsche/Corvette gold chain crowd expects gauges, but only >> >because the number of gauges is a factor in their perceived dick size. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Does the home market BMW also get an oil dipstick? Or does the home >market suffer from a lack of that just like the US market does? They stupidly did what you suggest and went to a computer controlled gizmo for oil level. > >Does the home market BMW also get an oil dipstick? Or does the home > >market suffer from a lack of that just like the US market does? > > They stupidly did what you suggest and went to a computer controlled > gizmo for oil level. which, when combined with their warranty terms, tells me that they have programmed this system very carefully. >>>Does the home market BMW also get an oil dipstick? Or does the home >>>market suffer from a lack of that just like the US market does? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > which, when combined with their warranty terms, tells me that they have > programmed this system very carefully. yes, if you read the maintenance schedule for a new BMW, it is basically what everyone should do to any car that they want to keep running indefinitely but nobody ever does. This would make me much more likely to consider a used BMW with service records to be more valuable than other brands. Unfortunately other people seem to agree with me, as even a "certified pre-owned" 3-series is a little too rich for my blood. I still don't like the computerization of something as simple as a dipstick, although I can understand that if they want to take the brand more upscale, a hood that is essentially sealed from the perspective of the end user might be a good thing (note: not this particular end user. And don't hide all the pretty stuff under plastic, either. If you want to do something fancy, polish the cam cover, and give me some shiny stainless headers.) I do *not* trust American manufacturers to take the same care in programming that BMW's engineers apparently have done. Sorry, I just don't trust 'em. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel > I do *not* trust American manufacturers to take the same care in > programming that BMW's engineers apparently have done. Sorry, I just > don't trust 'em. I trust the Japanese systems even more. >> which, when combined with their warranty terms, tells me that they have >> programmed this system very carefully. > >yes, if you read the maintenance schedule for a new BMW, it is basically >what everyone should do to any car that they want to keep running >indefinitely but nobody ever does. Not any more. It's been totally changed since BMW started offering free maintenance during the warranty period. BMW extended the oil and coolant changes considerably, and is now claiming the transmission fluid is "lifetime fill." Depending on the vehicle they may not be recommending brake fluid changes at all, and they certainly are not recommending them annually the way they used to. It is shameful. Far more so than the stupid fake temperature gauge and the missing dipstick. >This would make me much more likely to consider a used BMW with service >records to be more valuable than other brands. Unfortunately other >people seem to agree with me, as even a "certified pre-owned" 3-series >is a little too rich for my blood. Look into some older ones. You can find mid-eighties BMWs in decent shape at reasonable prices, and if they have been well-maintained they are good drivers. Parts are fairly expensive for them, but working on them is an absolute joy... everything just fits together perfectly without hammering and prying. >I still don't like the computerization of something as simple as a >dipstick, although I can understand that if they want to take the brand [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >want to do something fancy, polish the cam cover, and give me some shiny >stainless headers.) BMW's marketing in the US is totally different than their marketing in Europe. But they are losing sight of their old core buyers, people who wanted a vehicle that was fun to drive. The newer BMWs, though they have considerable sophistication and a lot more fancy modern features, are not as much fun to drive. >I do *not* trust American manufacturers to take the same care in >programming that BMW's engineers apparently have done. Sorry, I just >don't trust 'em. That's okay, I don't trust BMW's engineers either. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > >yes, if you read the maintenance schedule for a new BMW, it is basically > >what everyone should do to any car that they want to keep running [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > BMW extended the oil and coolant changes considerably, and is now claiming > the transmission fluid is "lifetime fill." Yeah--the lifetime of the transmission, no doubt. "When the transmission goes, you rebuild it and put new fluid in." Right. > >> which, when combined with their warranty terms, tells me that they have > >> programmed this system very carefully. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > It is shameful. Far more so than the stupid fake temperature gauge and > the missing dipstick. That is sad. I remember the maintenance schedule for my old 535i; applied to just about any car it would have guaranteed several decades of good service and reliability. > >This would make me much more likely to consider a used BMW with service > >records to be more valuable than other brands. Unfortunately other [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > them is an absolute joy... everything just fits together perfectly without > hammering and prying. Eh, I'm not in the market for a vehicle, and the 944 suits me fine. > >I still don't like the computerization of something as simple as a > >dipstick, although I can understand that if they want to take the brand [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > That's okay, I don't trust BMW's engineers either. If what you say above is true, I'm inclined to agree, sadly. I also heard that the iDrive system was based on Windows CE, true? nate >That is sad. I remember the maintenance schedule for my old 535i; >applied to just about any car it would have guaranteed several decades >of good service and reliability. It is. Possibly I am driving your old 535i right now, if it's a 1985 model. It's only got 280,000 miles on it so far, though, which is less than half that of the 2002. >> Look into some older ones. =A0You can find mid-eighties BMWs in decent >> shape at reasonable prices, and if they have been well-maintained they [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Eh, I'm not in the market for a vehicle, and the 944 suits me fine. It's more fun to work on than the 944. There's actually room inside the engine compartment, for one thing. You need one. And you won't get out of your seat to find your foot has punched through the floorboard like you will on the 944. >> That's okay, I don't trust BMW's engineers either. =A0 > >If what you say above is true, I'm inclined to agree, sadly. I also >heard that the iDrive system was based on Windows CE, true? I don't know at all. I have never used Windows CE, but I cannot imagine the user interface on it can be as bad as iDrive. It's hard to imagine ANY user interface as poorly thought-out. But then, I am a big fan of having one control per function whenever possible. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > >That is sad. I remember the maintenance schedule for my old 535i; > >applied to just about any car it would have guaranteed several decades [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > model. It's only got 280,000 miles on it so far, though, which is less than > half that of the 2002. No, it was an '86. I sold it back around 1999 or so with a little over 200K miles on it. I'd just had the engine replaced with a junkyard motor, but it had some electronic issue (probably flywheel sensors?) that would shut it down whenever it got hot, and the suspension was worn out and I didn't have the $$ to get it in shape to pass VA safety inspection. (was moving from OH to VA) I do miss it at times but my particular car wasn't in the greatest of shape, although the dark grey exterior/red interior was surprisingly attractive and it was cosmetically very nice. > >> Look into some older ones. =A0You can find mid-eighties BMWs in decent > >> shape at reasonable prices, and if they have been well-maintained they [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > of your seat to find your foot has punched through the floorboard like you > will on the 944. I no longer live in the rust belt :) and Porsche seemed to finally figure out rustproofing sometime in the mid-70s AFAICT. > >> That's okay, I don't trust BMW's engineers either. =A0 > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > one control per function whenever possible. > --scott I agree, I am not enamored of either the concept or the execution. nate On Apr 28, 11:11 am, "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <el...@nastydesigns.com> wrote: > In article > <a8437ceb-1a90-4129-96b9-bfcdaa398...@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > express purpose of showing everyone that you have $100K to spend on a > car, it had better look like more than a Prius. Well, there's two kinds of Prius buyers. The ones you mention, who I assume simply trust that Toyota took care of the software correctly. That's a dangerous assumption, but IMO much less so than, say, assuming the same of GM or Ford. The other type are the people who simply buy them because they want to be ecologically correct, and don't know a thing about cars anyway. (I try to tell those people that they should either a) simply keep their existing car or b) if their existing car is well and truly worn out, they might want to try a nice VW TDI instead, but they generally don't listen. Such is life, I guess.) > "Upscale" changes definition with car category. HEY!!!! there was shrinkage, dammit! FWIW, it pleases me to believe that Porsche is aiming its vehicles at the customers who actually do know how to drive, and if their vehicles appeal to others, so much the better. (maybe I'm engaging in a little harmless denial, there, but the fact remains that for the most part Porsches do have fairly decent instrumentation.) I do know personally at least one person that races a Corvette as well. I think that if either marque lost credibility with real racers and gearheads, that the gold-chain crowd would gradually drift away as well, as "racing heritage" is important to that kind of person. From a historical perspective, it would appear that consumers actually did want gauges at one point in time, or at least mfgrs. thought they did. Studebaker, for instance, flirted with using idiot lights on its sedan/Lark models at least twice (the C-K models, a.k.a. "Hawk" series, a.k.a. "sports coupes" always had full instruments) but always came back to real gauges after a couple of years. nate In article <a8437ceb-1a90-4129-96b9-bfcdaa3987dd@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, > I would think, though, that even to an ignorant consumer, the gauges > would be perceived as an "upscale" addition to any vehicle. Certainly > there are many fairly pedestrian vehicles that come with a tachometer > even with an automatic transmission, which is about the least useful > gauge possible for the 90+ percent of the people that will be driving > those vehicles who will never move the lever past "D." Like my minivan. Sho 'nuff. And I didn't need the tach to know that the engine was revving up and down at idle, and to take it in to have it looked at (it was the idle air control valve). >Now we get to the crux of the matter: you're driving older cars, in >some cases seriously older cars, and you know that as cars age they >develop quirks. This is true. >And you know that to keep driving them as they age, you need a 747 >cockpit full of instrumentation. This is an exaggeration, but an oil pressure gauge is a nice thing to have. >That's way, WAY different than the original proposition that "cars need >gauges". That's way, WAY different than the neighbor's ditzy 16yo >daughter driving the new Rabbit convertible that daddy just bought her. That's true, but sooner or later that new Rabbit convertible is going to be an old car. Unless the daughter melts the engine down by driving without oil. A well-maintained and well-driven car has a good chance of becoming an old car, that can continue to be driven by someone. This is a good thing. >Way, WAY different. Not at all. It's the same car, just with 20 years elapsed. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > >That's way, WAY different than the original proposition that "cars need > >gauges". That's way, WAY different than the neighbor's ditzy 16yo > >daughter driving the new Rabbit convertible that daddy just bought her. > > That's true, but sooner or later that new Rabbit convertible is going to > be an old car. At which point you add whatever instrumentation you'd like. Therefore, I repeat: in the real world of auto sales, gauges are not necessary and add nothing to the owner's experience. The automakers aren't in the business of selling OLD cars. >>I may not be the oldest guy on this group, but I've logged lots of miles >>driving cars that many people would consider well past their "best [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > And you know that to keep driving them as they age, you need a 747 > cockpit full of instrumentation. Uh, the "747" instrumentation is a stretch... As I said before, EVERY has four functions that should be capable of being monitored individualy... Remaining fuel, Coolant temperature, Electrical system status and oil pressure. All of which fall into the same basic parameters as well. A 747 OTOH has a flight engineer to monitor them thar' gages most of which are also computer driven these heeyah days. JT (Wondering just how dumb society has become) Permit me to summarize this thread. Mr. Nagel points out that having realtime information from gauges permits one to predict possible impending failures. Mr. Beam points out that most drivers are drooling mouthbreathers who should never be allowed behind the wheel of a car. Both of these statements are true. However, the second statement does not invalidate the first one. Most drivers don't watch the gauges, it's true. But most drivers don't stop at stop signs or signal turns either. Does that mean we should take all the signs down and stop requiring cars to have turn signals? I do not believe so. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > Permit me to summarize this thread. > > Mr. Nagel points out that having realtime information from gauges permits > one to predict possible impending failures. but what he doesn't say is that these gauges do absolutely /nothing/ to prevent them!!! a gauge may tell you your tire is flat, but it does nothing to stop that nail puncturing it. > Mr. Beam points out that most drivers are drooling mouthbreathers who > should never be allowed behind the wheel of a car. that's not true. i merely point out that because the geeks that design these things /know/ what they're doing, they /know/ that the vehicle remains in spec, given correct maintenance, for its lifetime. the instrumentation that does their initial homework is /not/ necessary for the consumer to operate it. just like elmo's refrigerator analogy. heck, /i'm/ mr anal retentive when it comes to my car, and /i/ don't need gauges to run the thing. test it, sure, but not run it. > Both of these statements are true. However, the second statement does > not invalidate the first one. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > believe so. > --scott >that's not true. i merely point out that because the geeks that design >these things /know/ what they're doing, they /know/ that the vehicle >remains in spec, given correct maintenance, for its lifetime. the >instrumentation that does their initial homework is /not/ necessary for >the consumer to operate it. just like elmo's refrigerator analogy. What you get in the dash is a function of industrial design and marketing. The engineers who developed the product have practically nothing to do with those decisions. As far as what those 'geeks' do, well, the ones I know tend to add the gauges they want even if they are hacked in and laying on the floor ;) >> Permit me to summarize this thread. >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > instrumentation that does their initial homework is /not/ necessary for > the consumer to operate it. just like elmo's refrigerator analogy. HAhahahahahahaha! you've never owned a GM car then have you. Their engineers may know what they're doing, but they don't get to do the *right* thing. Their cars are crap. nate > heck, /i'm/ mr anal retentive when it comes to my car, and /i/ don't > need gauges to run the thing. test it, sure, but not run it. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> believe so. >> --scott Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel > Permit me to summarize this thread. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > believe so. > --scott Well worded Scott! One probably shoul reap what they sow... <G> \ JT > One probably shoul reap what they sow... "One" is singular. "They" is plural. One should reap what he sows. snip >> a spun bearing is not a thrown rod. rods throw because the cap bolts >> fatigue, or much more rarely, because a rod fatigues. bearings or oil >> pressure have nothing to do with that kind of failure. > > You mean to tell me that a spun bearing is NEVER the precursor to a rod > failure? Geez... Nate, Yer' wastin' your time here. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together knows that a spun bearing, if ignored, will quickly lead to.. well, catastrophic results. Ya gotta limit your discussions to folks with at least half open minds... JT (Who always caught spun bearings *before* major damage occurred) > bottom line nate, every point of your argument is that of recreational > activity, not real-world vehicle operation. EXCELLENT way of putting it. snip >> That gauges really do add value for a minimally clueful operator. > > but you don't have a clue unless you have the test data for that engine. > so even if you install an aftermarket gauge, you're still in the dark. Oh bullshit! All engines operate in nearly identical OP, CT ranges. >> It lets me either confirm that the thermoswitch is working correctly - >> or when I see the temperature significantly above 92C and don't hear [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > but listening for the fan is much more effective! no gauge required. Oh sure, a sixteen year old with the stereo blasting and yakking with her friends is going to listen for a fan to turn on. JT > > Yes, but it is more difficult to "properly maintain" a car without > > gauges, as gauges give the aware driver earlier warning of impending [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and the gauges you /could/ fit to a car need to be interpreted. without > baseline research data, they're useless. Exactly. The gauges that the engineer types want are useless to the 16 year old girl (for example) in her new Rabbit convertible. She has no clue, doesn't want a clue, and will never have a clue what those gauges mean. And she's the typical car owner nowadays. I know it hurts, engineer types, but you are NOT typical in any way, shape, or form. It's far more accurate to program in sets of parameters that trigger the "check engine" light. That way, the 16yo girl drops it off at the shope where the hardcore type who knows what he's doing (that's my mechanic) or the guy who knows how to look in the factory manual (most of the rest of them) will know what the problem is. If the programming is any good, it catches things before they become catastrophes. And let's face it: the computer can do a MUCH better job of watching ALL the parameters ("virtual gauges") simultaneously and integrating their values into a program that has been carefully crafted to see things that a human with three or four gauges on the dashboard won't see. >>> Yes, but it is more difficult to "properly maintain" a car without >>> gauges, as gauges give the aware driver earlier warning of impending [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > their values into a program that has been carefully crafted to see > things that a human with three or four gauges on the dashboard won't see. come on elmo, these guys are letting their hurt feelings get in the way of their ability to understand at this stage. don't try to point out reality - spare them the pain. > >>> Yes, but it is more difficult to "properly maintain" a car without > >>> gauges, as gauges give the aware driver earlier warning of impending [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > of their ability to understand at this stage. don't try to point out > reality - spare them the pain. It's tough. >Exactly. The gauges that the engineer types want are useless to the 16 >year old girl (for example) in her new Rabbit convertible. She has no >clue, doesn't want a clue, and will never have a clue what those gauges >mean. And she's the typical car owner nowadays. So what? Why should everything be dumbed down for her sake? All this dumbing down does is build better idiots. So she doesn't know what they mean, tough sh.t for her. >It's far more accurate to program in sets of parameters that trigger the >"check engine" light. That way, the 16yo girl drops it off at the shope >where the hardcore type who knows what he's doing (that's my mechanic) >or the guy who knows how to look in the factory manual (most of the rest >of them) will know what the problem is. The catch all 'check engine light' is the stupidest thing ever. Back when OBD2 was being debated the auto manufacturers actually wanted something where the nature of the issue could be indicated to the driver. The government said 'NO', that they wanted to panic people into bringing their cars in. >If the programming is any good, it catches things before they become >catastrophes. What happens is people see the 'check engine light' and ignore it thinking its' a minor problem because they've seen the damn thing light up for a loose gas cap or tank of bad gas. >And let's face it: the computer can do a MUCH better job of watching >ALL the parameters ("virtual gauges") simultaneously and integrating >their values into a program that has been carefully crafted to see >things that a human with three or four gauges on the dashboard won't see. If there was nice LCD display that displayed the information it would be better than the gauges. But if it's all going to go to lighting up a single lamp if any one thing is out of range, then it isn't. > >Exactly. The gauges that the engineer types want are useless to the 16 > >year old girl (for example) in her new Rabbit convertible. She has no > >clue, doesn't want a clue, and will never have a clue what those gauges > >mean. And she's the typical car owner nowadays. > > So what? Why should everything be dumbed down for her sake? You plainly don't understand marketing and sales. You're asking the wrong question. The CORRECT question to ask is this: why should every car be built with the 747 cockpit? Let the THREE PEOPLE in the world who care about that, add whatever they want. In the meantime, the REAL WORLD marketing will keep the cost of the vehicle down by NOT adding the 747 dashboard that requires flight school and years of training to use. It's easier to put that years of training into a proper computer program which will decide, properly, when something needs tended to. Design that one time, spend the money one time, then the program can run at no extra cost on every car that comes off the line. >>>Exactly. The gauges that the engineer types want are useless to the 16 >>>year old girl (for example) in her new Rabbit convertible. She has no [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > that one time, spend the money one time, then the program can run at no > extra cost on every car that comes off the line. I don't believe that that is actually done. Do you have any evidence of any software like you describe? My belief is that most cars are essentially toaster ovens on wheels, made to be used for a couple years, discarded, and then replaced with a new one. At least that's how the manufacturers would like their customers to think of them. That's why I don't buy cars that show evidence of this design philosophy if I have any choice in the matter. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel >>>> Exactly. The gauges that the engineer types want are useless to the >>>> 16 year old girl (for example) in her new Rabbit convertible. She [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > I don't believe that that is actually done. Do you have any evidence of > any software like you describe? it's called obdII. it's on all modern cars. > My belief is that most cars are essentially toaster ovens on wheels, > made to be used for a couple years, discarded, and then replaced with a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > nate >>>>> Exactly. The gauges that the engineer types want are useless to >>>>> the 16 year old girl (for example) in her new Rabbit convertible. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > it's called obdII. it's on all modern cars. But do you have any evidence that, say, oil pressure is monitored by anything other than a simple 5 or 7 PSI pressure switch? nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel > > It's easier to put that years of training into a proper computer program > > which will decide, properly, when something needs tended to. Design [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I don't believe that that is actually done. Do you have any evidence of > any software like you describe? Ever hooked up a ScanGauge? Ever driven a Prius? Ever looked into the technology of a Prius? That the Prius drives just like any other car is testimony to the abilities of the software engineers at Toyota. > My belief is that most cars are essentially toaster ovens on wheels, > made to be used for a couple years, discarded, and then replaced with a > new one. At least that's how the manufacturers would like their > customers to think of them. That's correct. And those of us who know better, buy quality cars that can easily outlast the manufacturer's ultimate wishes. Want a 94 Lexus ES with 174K on the clock? No 747 dashboard full of gauges, but runs as smooth as the day it was born. > That's why I don't buy cars that show > evidence of this design philosophy if I have any choice in the matter. So what cars do you buy? >> >Exactly. The gauges that the engineer types want are useless to the 16 >> >year old girl (for example) in her new Rabbit convertible. She has no [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >You plainly don't understand marketing and sales. I understand it just fine. >You're asking the wrong question. The CORRECT question to ask is this: >why should every car be built with the 747 cockpit? Let the THREE >PEOPLE in the world who care about that, add whatever they want. Nice straw man. >In the meantime, the REAL WORLD marketing will keep the cost of the >vehicle down by NOT adding the 747 dashboard that requires flight school >and years of training to use. Strawman. >It's easier to put that years of training into a proper computer program >which will decide, properly, when something needs tended to. Design >that one time, spend the money one time, then the program can run at no >extra cost on every car that comes off the line. Ford could have a real temp gauge in my mustang with a different printing on the dash. Instead of NORMAL it could actually have numbers. For the oil pressure same thing with a real sender. Cost difference = ZERO. Alternatively the OBD2 functions could be put into a display wrapped up with the idiot lights and it would probably be a cost savings. It could easily display virtual gauges. > >You plainly don't understand marketing and sales. > > I understand it just fine. Your words speak for themselves. >> >You plainly don't understand marketing and sales. >> >> I understand it just fine. > >Your words speak for themselves. So, elmo, how long have you worked as an engineer in product development? > >> >You plainly don't understand marketing and sales. > >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > So, elmo, how long have you worked as an engineer in product > development? Alongside WITH such engineers? 10 years. >> >> >You plainly don't understand marketing and sales. >> >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Alongside WITH such engineers? 10 years. So you actually haven't done it yourself. Try it some time in a large US corporation where you are over-ridden by marketing, finance, and industrial design. Where you are told to use the crappy lowest cost supplier (then blamed when they can't make a decent part even though the vendor they replaced could do it in their sleep). Where you are forced to compromise the function and durability for form so the industrial designer can have the exact look he drew up even though it's beyond current manufacturing technology or the finance people don't want to pay for it. Better yet, being held to some dumb a.s marketing dimensional standard that hopelessly compromises the product. There's nothing like stuffing 10lbs into a 2lb bag. > >Alongside WITH such engineers? 10 years. > > So you actually haven't done it yourself. Try it some time in a large US > corporation where you are over-ridden by marketing, finance, and > industrial design. That's exactly my environment. I don't need lectured on this one bit. >> >Alongside WITH such engineers? 10 years. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >I don't need lectured on this one bit. And yet you argue the exact opposite. >>>>>>You plainly don't understand marketing and sales. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > standard that hopelessly compromises the product. There's nothing like > stuffing 10lbs into a 2lb bag. Heh... I spent quite a number of years in the semiconductor equipment manufacturing business, specifically new product transitions. I can tell ya that there was NO industrial design! Form and Function, yes... But "Fit," no way Jose... Takes too much time and cuts into profit. The result, maintenance/repairs undertaken by the customer were a nightmare. We stuffed 100 lbs into a 5 lb bag... <G> JT >>>Exactly. The gauges that the engineer types want are useless to the 16 >>>year old girl (for example) in her new Rabbit convertible. She has no [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > that one time, spend the money one time, then the program can run at no > extra cost on every car that comes off the line. Elmo, I gotta take issue here. For example, everyone should know the four basic functions of math; addition, subtractionn, multiplication and division. Likewise, everyone that has a driver's license should be aware of the four basic functions to be monitored on any internal combustion engine; gas remaining, electrical system status, oil pressure and coolant temperature. This is not rocket science by any means. Geeeeeeeez, JT > > It's easier to put that years of training into a proper computer program > > which will decide, properly, when something needs tended to. Design [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > For example, everyone should know the four basic functions of math; > addition, subtractionn, multiplication and division. "Should" is the operative word here. But many DON'T--and it's certainly not a requirement for buying and licensing a car for driving on public roads. In fact, the sales staff at a dealership would tell you that it only gets in the way of their goal--which is to get a signature on the bottom line. Same with gauges. The buying public has spoken: it wants to "keep it real". snip > The catch all 'check engine light' is the stupidest thing ever. Back > when OBD2 was being debated the auto manufacturers actually wanted > something where the nature of the issue could be indicated to the > driver. The government said 'NO', that they wanted to panic people into > bringing their cars in. Exactly. The public (herds of sheeple) have been dumbed down so badly that they must be spoon fed in nearly every facet of life. For me, I own no car with a "Check Motah" light. WTF??? Give me a clue! > What happens is people see the 'check engine light' and ignore it > thinking its' a minor problem because they've seen the damn thing light > up for a loose gas cap or tank of bad gas. And there lies the Achilles heel of simplified notifications. "You Have a Problem." OK, but WTF is it? Is it something I can ignore for the immediate time frame and take care of it later or is it a bearing crunching oil starvation coolant overheating emergency? Beats me until I smell sumptin' burning or the damned thing just quits. >>And let's face it: the computer can do a MUCH better job of watching >>ALL the parameters ("virtual gauges") simultaneously and integrating [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > better than the gauges. But if it's all going to go to lighting up a > single lamp if any one thing is out of range, then it isn't. Bingo! JT >but you "maintain" a 944 - if ever a vehicle were uneconomic, that is >it. otoh, i can get a whole new engine for my honda for ~$300. less if >i buy locally. for that money, i can throw in a whole new motor every >year if i want to. "no longer be economical" my a.s. If you value your labor at zero. >> but you "maintain" a 944 - if ever a vehicle were uneconomic, that is >> it. otoh, i can get a whole new engine for my honda for ~$300. less if >> i buy locally. for that money, i can throw in a whole new motor every >> year if i want to. "no longer be economical" my a.s. > > If you value your labor at zero. er, actually, the labor to rebuild a motor is /way/ more than to replace. >>> but you "maintain" a 944 - if ever a vehicle were uneconomic, that is >>> it. otoh, i can get a whole new engine for my honda for ~$300. less if [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >er, actually, the labor to rebuild a motor is /way/ more than to replace. Um, the question is having gauges to prevent needing either vs. driving it into the ground and replacing. >>>> but you "maintain" a 944 - if ever a vehicle were uneconomic, that is >>>> it. otoh, i can get a whole new engine for my honda for ~$300. less if [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Um, the question is having gauges to prevent needing either vs. driving > it into the ground and replacing. eh? you're the one who said "If you value your labor at zero". >>>>> but you "maintain" a 944 - if ever a vehicle were uneconomic, that is >>>>> it. otoh, i can get a whole new engine for my honda for ~$300. less if [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >eh? you're the one who said "If you value your labor at zero". If you consider the 'cost' to be $300 then you value your labor at zero. Duh. >>>>>> but you "maintain" a 944 - if ever a vehicle were uneconomic, that is >>>>>> it. otoh, i can get a whole new engine for my honda for ~$300. less if [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > If you consider the 'cost' to be $300 then you value your labor at zero. > Duh. the labor of removal and fitting is the same on both sides of the equation - it therefore cancels out. there is no labor for re-work if simply replacing the motor, so the cost /saving/ matters. >>>>>>> but you "maintain" a 944 - if ever a vehicle were uneconomic, that is >>>>>>> it. otoh, i can get a whole new engine for my honda for ~$300. less if [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > equation - it therefore cancels out. there is no labor for re-work if > simply replacing the motor, so the cost /saving/ matters. That's not the question. The point is your total cost is '$300' only if you don't value your labor. >>>>>>>> but you "maintain" a 944 - if ever a vehicle were uneconomic, that is >>>>>>>> it. otoh, i can get a whole new engine for my honda for ~$300. less if [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > That's not the question. The point is your total cost is '$300' only if > you don't value your labor. no, you cancel out both sides of the equation. the labor to remove and refit an engine is the same on both sides, whether it's rebuilt or replaced. the equation then becomes /my/ cost to replace at $300 vs. /his/ cost to rebuild, with parts, plus a ton /more/ labor. >>>>>>>>> but you "maintain" a 944 - if ever a vehicle were uneconomic, that is >>>>>>>>> it. otoh, i can get a whole new engine for my honda for ~$300. less if [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > replaced. the equation then becomes /my/ cost to replace at $300 vs. > /his/ cost to rebuild, with parts, plus a ton /more/ labor. Again that is *NOT* the question. Nate said with proper instrumentation he could spot an impending failure before it became a siezed engine and be repaired without yanking it out. You said a replacement engine is only $300, so who cares, just run it until it becomes a paperweight. I responded that it's only $300 if you value your labor at zero. Try to follow along. >>>>>>>>>> but you "maintain" a 944 - if ever a vehicle were uneconomic, that is >>>>>>>>>> it. otoh, i can get a whole new engine for my honda for ~$300. less if [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Try to follow along. oh, i get it, you can't argue the point /you/ raised, so now you want to change it back onto another topic, and ignore anything that doesn't suit. sorry, my mistake. >>>>>>>>>>> but you "maintain" a 944 - if ever a vehicle were uneconomic, that is >>>>>>>>>>> it. otoh, i can get a whole new engine for my honda for ~$300. less if [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > change it back onto another topic, and ignore anything that doesn't > suit. sorry, my mistake. Nice projection. Do try to follow the conversation. I explained it to you. But, go ahead and keep siezing up engines since you don't consider your labor to be worth anything. >>>>>>>>>>but you "maintain" a 944 - if ever a vehicle were uneconomic, that is >>>>>>>>>>it. otoh, i can get a whole new engine for my honda for ~$300. less if [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Try to follow along. And you forgot that even if the failure isn't serviceable in the car, at least if you have advance warning, you get to repair it at your leisure rather than trying to call a tow truck in BFE, Ohio. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel >>>>> Are you saying that, for example, Lexus cars are a complete waste >>>>> of money? 'Cuz, those same people who aren't maintaining their [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > and the gauges you /could/ fit to a car need to be interpreted. without > baseline research data, they're useless. Um, what is so difficult to understand as to basic guages? Even with today's dumbed down public, oil pressure, coolant temperature, etc can be clearly marked as to acceptible ranges. >> Two examples already given are cooling fan problems > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > pressure is lower than it used to be, the oil and bearings are still > performing just fine. Again, if gages are marked with an acceptable range, any reading below that can be addressed before major damage occurs. >> easy enough to fix when caught early > > so how exactly do /you/ propose to fix lower oil pressure??? i want > details of what you think it involves. Usually, an oil pump... >> but letting it go can result in a full engine rebuild, at which point >> it may no longer be economical to maintain the car any longer. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > i buy locally. for that money, i can throw in a whole new motor every > year if i want to. "no longer be economical" my a.s. I haven't seen many (if any) modern Honda engines for less than $1,000 and that doesn't include labor for a changeout. JT Isn't this thread dead yet? Gauges should always be an option on a car, and they should be REAL gauges, not idiot gauges. >> >If you don't know enough to (a) open the owner's manual, and (b) follow >> >the VERY SIMPLE maintenance schedule--or, on a newer car, simply follow [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >And yet, the sales of cars seems to be through the roof--even high end >cars. Yes, that's true. If you don't maintain your car properly, you have to buy a new one long before you would if you were more careful. Poor maintenance _increases_ auto sales. >Are you saying that, for example, Lexus cars are a complete waste of >money? 'Cuz, those same people who aren't maintaining their cars are >buying Lexus cars hand over fist. If you don't do regular maintenance, any car is a complete waste of money, because it won't be worth much for long. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > > YOU wanted to know how > > the thing works, so YOU found out. Others don't know, don't want to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Its also harmless to them. Better yet, after watching a gauge a while, > they'll learn what it means just like my wife did. Not harmless at all--it costs the money. And 99.99% of the people won't learn and will never care. You need to get out more. On 4/25/2008 2:12 PM Steve spake these words of knowledge: >>>> but now you're admitting that a warning light is as much use. >>> Not at all. Gauges do warn you before things get critical, [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > Its also harmless to them. Better yet, after watching a gauge a while, > they'll learn what it means just like my wife did. Steve, the people responding to you are not amenable to logic. Just so you know, there are people who understand that in this case, more information is either useful or, if discarded/ignored, harmless. RFT!!! Dave Kelsen SignatureAge doesn't always bring wisdom. Sometimes age comes alone. > > Its also harmless to them. Better yet, after watching a gauge a while, > > they'll learn what it means just like my wife did. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > know, there are people who understand that in this case, more > information is either useful or, if discarded/ignored, harmless. It's not harmless at all--as described earlier in this thread, with fluctuating gauges simply reflecting normal operation. But, the ignorant people seeing the fluctuation immediately assumed "something's wrong," and took the car in for service. >the people responding to you are not amenable to logic. Just so you >know, there are people who understand that in this case, more >information is either useful or, if discarded/ignored, harmless. That's right. In another few years, they'll eliminate ALL the instrumentation. No more speedometers, since automated governors linked by radio to the electronic highway system will make it impossible to speed. No more temperature gauges, voltmeters, or oil pressure gauges. In the new era, there will just be one light on the dashboard, that says "REPLACE CAR" and when it comes on, the GPS system will print directions to the nearest GM dealer that you can give to the taxi cab driver that Onstar will dispatch. Oh, actually, I take that back. They'll still be selling automatics with a tachometer, because everybody knows tachometers are cool. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." >> the people responding to you are not amenable to logic. Just so you >> know, there are people who understand that in this case, more [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > with a tachometer, because everybody knows tachometers are cool. > --scott you've never worked in customer support then... <snip crap> >> quote: >> "gauges are just idiot lights with pointers" > > No, I never said that and i never said. "wow, what a f.cking idiot!!!" > I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 > miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > from a Yaris/Fit/xD engine overheating (which, if happens, would be > several years down the road.) Don't be so sure that the temeprature gauge is any better than the idiot light. Many US and Japanese manufacturers now install temperature gauges that are controlled by the engine computer (PCM) instead of directly by a temperature transducer. They move upwards sort of like a "real" temperature gauge as the car warms up, but it is an act controlled by the PCM. The guage moves only in response to the commands from the PCM. Unless the car overheats, the gauge is commanded to the "normal" position. Some have an intermediate position between "normal" and "hot," some don't. Either way, it is only a little better than the "idiot" light you don't like. I don't know if the cars you mentioned have this sort of guage. I know my Ford Fusion and Nissan Frontier do. I think my SO's RAV4 does as well, but I have not had a chance to review the wiring diagrams to be sure. I suspect if you want "real" gauges you will need to install them yourself, or buy a German car. Ed > TIA, > Bubba >Nissan Frontier do. I think my SO's RAV4 does as well, but I have not had a >chance to review the wiring diagrams to be sure. I suspect if you want >"real" gauges you will need to install them yourself, or buy a German car. Shamefully, even BMW has embraced the fake gauges. I cannot imagine what they were thinking. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." >> Nissan Frontier do. I think my SO's RAV4 does as well, but I have not had a >> chance to review the wiring diagrams to be sure. I suspect if you want [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > they were thinking. > --scott they were thinking through the engineering functions rationally and logically! >> Nissan Frontier do. I think my SO's RAV4 does as well, but I have not had a >> chance to review the wiring diagrams to be sure. I suspect if you want >> "real" gauges you will need to install them yourself, or buy a German car. > > Shamefully, even BMW has embraced the fake gauges. I cannot imagine what > they were thinking. They were thinking "DAMN I wish all these nitwits that are complaining because the oil pressure gauge moves when the engine changes speed would go away and let us build cars!!" People that don't have a clue about how an engine works and were complaining to Ford about 'fluctuating oil pressure' (which was in fact perfectly normal) are EXACTLY why Ford went to an idiot gauge (pressure switch) way back when. The "my car is a toaster" crowd that made the Camry the best stilling POS in the world is ruining the driving experience for the rest of us more and more every day. > The "my car is a toaster" crowd that made the Camry the best stilling > POS in the world is ruining the driving experience for the rest of us > more and more every day. Hardly. There's a car, actually a plethora of them, for every taste. At any rate, now we know what your ACTUAL complaint is. You can't find a car to suit your particular tastes. Ain't that a bitch. >> The "my car is a toaster" crowd that made the Camry the best stilling >> POS in the world is ruining the driving experience for the rest of us [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Ain't that a bitch. Again, its not MY problem, I'm just commenting on it as a symptom of how ignorant of how a car works the average driver has become. Besides I have 5 cars that suit my taste beautifully, and there are plenty of others I'd love to have (a Challenger SRT-8 tops the list, but that aint gonna happen unless I were to sell the '69 R/T convertible and that's not bloody likely) > > At any rate, now we know what your ACTUAL complaint is. You can't find > > a car to suit your particular tastes. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Again, its not MY problem, I'm just commenting on it as a symptom of how > ignorant of how a car works the average driver has become. No, it's a symptom of how appliance-like the cars have become--which depends on, and also feeds, the fact that auto transportation has become a necessity--not a hobby, not a luxury. When the Model T came out, you had to know everything about the car and be your own mechanic. Of course, that was OK back then. Now imagine the Model T being the primary source of transportation today. Face it: technology starts out in the labs, then hits the early adopters, then eventually becomes mainstream--and appliance-like. I don't have to know how a computer works just to be able to take and send pictures on my cell phone. You don't like that technology becomes an appliance. Tough sh.t. That's how life works. >>> At any rate, now we know what your ACTUAL complaint is. You can't find >>> a car to suit your particular tastes. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > depends on, and also feeds, the fact that auto transportation has become > a necessity--not a hobby, not a luxury. Really? The media keep telling us just how unnecessary it is. Live in a high-rise. Take the bus. Ride a bike. Its the new urbanism. </sacrcasm> > When the Model T came out, you had to know everything about the car and > be your own mechanic. Of course, that was OK back then. Now imagine > the Model T being the primary source of transportation today. > > Face it: technology starts out in the labs, then hits the early > adopters, then eventually becomes mainstream--and appliance-like. Cars were already appliance-like in 1940, but they still had real instrumentation. And appliances can be either versatile equipment with a good operator interface, or cheap crap from Target too. I > don't have to know how a computer works just to be able to take and send > pictures on my cell phone. But it damn sure helps if you have a clue. It lets you do more, do it better, and be more productive than the appliance-user. And knowledge prevents you from being dependent on a sysadmin somewhere. > You don't like that technology becomes an appliance. Tough sh.t. > That's how life works. Fortunately there are still plenty of cars for people who ENJOY cars out there. >>> The "my car is a toaster" crowd that made the Camry the best stilling >>> POS in the world is ruining the driving experience for the rest of us [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Again, its not MY problem, I'm just commenting on it as a symptom of how > ignorant of how a car works the average driver has become. like the ignorant average driver that thinks the "temp gauge" in his car is actually telling him anything other than "normal" and "too hot"? > Besides I have 5 cars that suit my taste beautifully, and there are > plenty of others I'd love to have (a Challenger SRT-8 tops the list, but > that aint gonna happen unless I were to sell the '69 R/T convertible and > that's not bloody likely) On Apr 4, 1:56 pm, bubbabu...@yahoo.com wrote: snip > Also, the next bigger models that do have the water temp gauge would > be Toyota Corolla, Matrix, or Honda Civic. But the extra purchase/ [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > TIA, > Bubba I'm gonna challenge your assumption that the Corolla, although somewhat more expensive to purchase, delivering 26/35 mpg and with historically outstanding reliability, will cost more to operate and insure than the smaller cars on your list over the course of 250,000 miles. You might want to test drive these cars on the same roads and at the same speeds as your daily commute. > I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 > miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small > vehicle with great gas mileage. Yaris hatchback, Scion xD, or Honda > Fit would work for me. Problem is, none of them has a water temp > gauge, just an "idiot light." Many present vehicles have software which "smooths" the response of the water temperature gauge so much that is practically is an idiot light. Not having one wouldn't be a deal breaker for me. On Apr 4, 1:56 pm, bubbabu...@yahoo.com wrote: > I've been thinking about what my next commute car is going to be. 80 > miles/day, it's just me and my briefcase, so thinking of a small [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > TIA, > Bubba In my experience most drivers glance at the temp gauge rarely, if at all. It is for that reason that most cars equipped with a temperature gauge also come with a linked idiot light and sometimes a text-based screen to alert the driver. I don't see where the loss of a temperature gauge is any big deal for most drivers. If you want a temp gauge, just add an aftermarket one on one of those baseline cars you mentioned. > If you want a temp gauge, just add an aftermarket one on one of those > baseline cars you mentioned. How is such an aftermarket temp gauge installed - under the hood, and how is it mounted on the dashboard/instrument panel? How much does it cost? On Apr 23, 10:38 am, bubbabu...@yahoo.com wrote: > > If you want a temp gauge, just add an aftermarket one on one of those > > baseline cars you mentioned. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > it > cost? You need to locate the temperature sending unit on the block and find a place in the interior to mount a gauge. When you buy a gauge you should get a sending unit with two connections - one for the idiot light and one for the gauge. Hook them both up, wire the gauge and you are off and running. The hardest part will be finding a keyed power source for the gauge and a proper ground. It's really pretty straightforward if you have worked on cars before. If not, just have a local mechanic do the work. > On Apr 23, 10:38�am, bubbabu...@yahoo.com wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > You need to locate the temperature sending unit on the block and find > a place in the interior to mount a gauge. just use the engine computer to give temperature output. its sensor is best located to get the best reading, unlike a bolt-on. > When you buy a gauge you should get a sending unit with two > connections - one for the idiot light and one for the gauge. Hook > them both up, wire the gauge and you are off and running. The hardest > part will be finding a keyed power source for the gauge and a proper > ground. It's really pretty straightforward if you have worked on cars > before. If not, just have a local mechanic do the work. In article <588c4a7a-3612-4834-9469-ea00351f78a0@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, > > > If you want a temp gauge, just add an aftermarket one on one of those > > > baseline cars you mentioned. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > You need to locate the temperature sending unit on the block and find > a place in the interior to mount a gauge. Or, just buy the gauge that plugs into the standard OBD II port and displays lots of things. >> If you want a temp gauge, just add an aftermarket one on one of those >> baseline cars you mentioned. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > it > cost? There are a couple of different types. An old-style purely mechanical gauge has a pressure bulb that gets screwed into a coolant passage in the engine block (you can often "tee" a fitting in so that it shares the same coolant port as the car's own idiot light sensor. A capillary tube runs to the gauge mounted on or under the dash. These are usually very accurate, even for the cheap models under $25. The drawback is that you have to be very careful in routing the capillary tube because if it becomes kinked or broken, the gauge is useless. You also have to have a large enough hole in the firewall to feed the pressure bulb and capillary through. Electric gauges have an electric sensor that goes in the coolant, just like the capillary bulb. But you can install it, and then route the power and sense wires however you need to. They're more expensive, and the lower end ones are not always very accurate. >>> If you want a temp gauge, just add an aftermarket one on one of those >>> baseline cars you mentioned. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > power and sense wires however you need to. They're more expensive, and > the lower end ones are not always very accurate. what's the point when the engine computer can output the data for you???? >> Electric gauges have an electric sensor that goes in the coolant, just >> like the capillary bulb. But you can install it, and then route the >> power and sense wires however you need to. They're more expensive, and >> the lower end ones are not always very accurate. > >what's the point when the engine computer can output the data for you???? The point is to have a nice clean interface that you can look at every few minutes when you scan the panel. The engine computer can give you all kinds of useful information, but if you have to page through a dozen menus to get it, you will never see it in time. And information you never see is not useful. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > what's the point when the engine computer can output the data for you???? 1) cost 2) simplicity 3) redundancy >> what's the point when the engine computer can output the data for you???? > > 1) cost it's already built in!!! > 2) simplicity see above! > 3) redundancy that's the best of the lot! so why not fit a spare steering wheel while you're about it. idiot. |
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