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Car Forum / Honda Cars / September 2008OT; Nitrogen filled tires
Hi, Just wondered what if topping up with ordinary air to a nitrogn filled tires. What would happen? Good, bad or any harm? > Hi, > Just wondered what if topping up with ordinary air to a nitrogn filled > tires. What would happen? Good, bad or any harm? not a problem. the question is, why did you bother with nitrogen in the first place? >> Hi, >> Just wondered what if topping up with ordinary air to a nitrogn filled >> tires. What would happen? Good, bad or any harm? > > not a problem. the question is, why did you bother with nitrogen in the > first place? Hi, Wife had new tires put on at Costco and they only use nitrogen. When I took the car to a lube joint for oil change they are not gonna bother with tire pressure check because of nitrogen(green valve cap). >>> Hi, >>> Just wondered what if topping up with ordinary air to a nitrogn filled [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > When I took the car to a lube joint for oil change they are not gonna > bother with tire pressure check because of nitrogen(green valve cap). just do it yourself and fill at the next gas station. there's a small advantage to nitrogen related to partial pressures, but that only works on initial fill. after that, you may as well just maintain pressure with free/cheaper air. you'll certainly never know any difference driving around. >>> Hi, >>> Just wondered what if topping up with ordinary air to a nitrogn filled [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > When I took the car to a lube joint for oil change they are not gonna > bother with tire pressure check because of nitrogen(green valve cap). Since air is mostly nitrogen anyway, you will just end up with less nitrogen in the mix, which was probably not 100% nitrogen to begin with, because the tires would have had some air in them before inflation. >> Hi, >> Just wondered what if topping up with ordinary air to a nitrogn filled >> tires. What would happen? Good, bad or any harm? > > not a problem. the question is, why did you bother with nitrogen in the > first place? Indeed. Of what advantage is 85% nitrogen over the 78% in regular air?  SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>> Hi, >>> Just wondered what if topping up with ordinary air to a nitrogn >>> filled tires. What would happen? Good, bad or any harm? it wastes the oney you spent to get a nitrogen fill. >> not a problem. the question is, why did you bother with nitrogen in >> the first place? > > Indeed. > > Of what advantage is 85% nitrogen over the 78% in regular air? less O2 for the tires to absorb? (internal pressure forcing more absorbtion that outside air.) SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net >>>> Hi, >>>> Just wondered what if topping up with ordinary air to a nitrogn >>>> filled tires. What would happen? Good, bad or any harm? > > it wastes the oney you spent to get a nitrogen fill. that's why you shouldn't waste your money in the first place! >>> not a problem. the question is, why did you bother with nitrogen in >>> the first place? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > less O2 for the tires to absorb? > (internal pressure forcing more absorbtion that outside air.) tires "absorb" [diffuse] oxygen from atmosphere anyway. if the tire is 100% nitrogen, oxygen will still diffuse in - partial pressures. the only technical advantage to nitrogen is on the extreme performance end of the spectrum where you may want to minimize oxygen for fire protection, or water vapor [always present in air] for icing. like aerospace. > Hi, > Just wondered what if topping up with ordinary air to a nitrogn filled > tires. What would happen? Good, bad or any harm? Google "atmosphere composition" >Just wondered what if topping up with ordinary air to a nitrogn filled >tires. What would happen? Good, bad or any harm? if you allow any of the nitrogen to escape, thousands could be killed. /sarc >>Just wondered what if topping up with ordinary air to a nitrogn filled >>tires. What would happen? Good, bad or any harm? > > if you allow any of the nitrogen to escape, thousands could be killed. > > /sarc Yup, Begining with you first, LOL! > >Just wondered what if topping up with ordinary air to a nitrogn filled > >tires. What would happen? Good, bad or any harm? > > if you allow any of the nitrogen to escape, thousands could be killed. > > /sarc "Oh, the humanity!" As I recall consumer reports did something about this and it works really well........................ at sucking $$ from peoples pockets. That's about all. >>Just wondered what if topping up with ordinary air to a nitrogn filled >>tires. What would happen? Good, bad or any harm? > > if you allow any of the nitrogen to escape, thousands could be killed. > > /sarc > As I recall consumer reports did something about this and it works really > well........................ at sucking $$ from peoples pockets. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> >>/sarc Hi, Our local Costco tirep shop only uses Nitrogen for some reason. Their price is very good. > Hi, > Our local Costco tirep shop only uses Nitrogen for some reason. > Their price is very good. I think you just found their reason. Noone charges much for air ($.50 at a gas-station machine, max). But they get to make money by selling you nitrogen... ;-) SignatureJoe - Linux User #449481/Ubuntu User #19733 joe at hits - buffalo dot com "Hate is baggage, life is too short to go around pissed off all the time..." - Danny, American History X > > Hi, > > Our local Costco tirep shop only uses Nitrogen for some reason. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > at a gas-station machine, max). But they get to make money by selling > you nitrogen... ;-) I use 80% nitrogen. It's called air and is free. Bob > As I recall consumer reports did something about this and it works really > well........................ at sucking $$ from peoples pockets. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>>Just wondered what if topping up with ordinary air to a nitrogn filled >>>tires. What would happen? Good, bad or any harm? That is as may be but I can tell you this. It works wonders for tires when the temps hit -35F and even colder. Dave D >> As I recall consumer reports did something about this and it works really >> well........................ at sucking $$ from peoples pockets. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > That is as may be but I can tell you this. It works wonders for tires when > the temps hit -35F and even colder. <belatedly> how so? (serious question, BTW) > As I recall consumer reports did something about this and it works really > well........................ at sucking $$ from peoples pockets. > > That's about all. Nitrogen has less water than air. Because the water in air tends to condense onto the tire and rim or even get into the rubber, the amount of water in the air doesn't stay constant, causing changes in tire pressure with air. However, unless your regular drive is in a race car, the changes are too small to make any real difference. Personally, I use 80% nitrogen myself. The rest is mostly oxygen. And, this gas is free at some gas stations. It's called "compressed air." Jeff >>> Just wondered what if topping up with ordinary air to a nitrogn filled >>> tires. What would happen? Good, bad or any harm? >> if you allow any of the nitrogen to escape, thousands could be killed. >> >> /sarc >> As I recall consumer reports did something about this and it works >> really well........................ at sucking $$ from peoples pockets. >> >> That's about all. > > Nitrogen has less water than air. Probably because the water is removed as the nitrogen is compressed, the same as when air is compressed for scuba tanks. If you want to try really dry air, inflate your tires with compressed air from a scuba shop. I don't know that I'd bother, but it certainly is possible. Nitrogen Tire Inflation vs. Temperature Change There is no significant difference in expansion and contraction characteristics of nitrogen compared to air when moisture is absent. Expansion or contraction of either gas, in relation to temperature change, occurs to a similar extent over the commonly encountered pressure and temperature ranges relevant to the discussion of tire inflation. There is no practical difference as long as the gases are dry in a fixed volume container such as a tire. On the other hand, water is usually present in the case of conventional compressed air where dewpoints can be as high as 70F, compared with -50F for nitrogen. At lower temperatures, water (as a liquid) occupies very little volume. However, as temperature increases liquid water vaporizes to become a gas and its volume expands. This causes total tire pressure to be higher than it would be in the case of a dry gas, such as nitrogen. Thus the presence of water in a tire contributes to wild pressure variations as temperatures change. The pressure in nitrogen filled tires will change when the temperature changes, just as it does with compressed air filled tires because nitrogen responds to changes in ambient temperature in a similar manner. For example, when your vehicle is parked, it will lose 1.9% of its pressure for every 10F change in temperature. These calculations are based on the ideal gas law. If a tire is filled to 32 psig at a temperature of 75F, and the outdoor temperature is 35F, the tire pressure will drop to 29 psig. These fluctuations will occur as the temperature rises and falls, regardless of the inflation gas. Fortunately, tire manufacturers are readily aware of these parameters and set their cold inflation pressures accordingly. So, the bottom line is that you will still see pressure changes with nitrogen. But they should be more consistent and run cooler than if they were filled with compressed air. The properties of nitrogen tire inflation are well known: 1.. Nitrogen filled tires retain their pressure longer than those filled with compressed air. A typical tire filled with compressed air will lose up to 2 psig/month, it takes 4-6x as long to lose that 2 psig with a nitrogen filled tire. 2.. Nitrogen is very dry, with a dewpoint of about -50F. This eliminates any moisture (liquid or vapor) within the tire casing. 3.. Nitrogen is non-reactive and practically halts breakdown of the rubber. These properties yield a variety of benefits for the average driver 1.. Fuel Efficiency Improvements: By maintaining proper tire pressure longer with nitrogen inflation, gas mileage will be maximized. 2.. Tire Life Improvements: Since the permeation of oxygen through the sidewall is minimized with nitrogen tire inflation, rubber retains its strength longer. This, coupled with the better pressure retention, provides longer tire life. 3.. Safety: Underinflation was a factor in 32,000 automobile fatalities in 1999. This is minimized with nitrogen. 4.. Environment: Underinflated tires waste 2.8B gallons of gasoline/year and emit additional greenhouse gases. Maintaining your proper tire pressure longer helps to minimize both wasted gasoline and greenhouse gases. Here is a piece of literature from Bridgestone that explains these benefits well. http://www.getnitrogen.org/pdf/Bridgestone.pdf > Hi, > Just wondered what if topping up with ordinary air to a nitrogn filled > tires. What would happen? Good, bad or any harm? <reposted to ignore ancient thread> > Nitrogen Tire Inflation vs. Temperature Change > There is no significant difference in expansion and contraction [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > gas law. If a tire is filled to 32 psig at a temperature of 75F, and the > outdoor temperature is 35F, the tire pressure will drop to 29 psig. eh? but fill air is not heated, and certainly not to 75'F when it's 35'F ambient. that's a bogus argument. > These > fluctuations will occur as the temperature rises and falls, regardless of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > nitrogen. But they should be more consistent and run cooler than if they > were filled with compressed air. bogus reasoning. > The properties of nitrogen tire inflation are well known: > > 1.. Nitrogen filled tires retain their pressure longer than those filled > with compressed air. A typical tire filled with compressed air will lose up > to 2 psig/month, it takes 4-6x as long to lose that 2 psig with a nitrogen > filled tire. that's because of partial pressures, not because nitrogen diffuses through rubber slower. > 2.. Nitrogen is very dry, with a dewpoint of about -50F. This eliminates > any moisture (liquid or vapor) within the tire casing. no, it's not "dry" any more than air without water vapor in it. > 3.. Nitrogen is non-reactive and practically halts breakdown of the > rubber. ok, not that oxidation is a significant problem though... > These properties yield a variety of benefits for the average driver > > 1.. Fuel Efficiency Improvements: By maintaining proper tire pressure > longer with nitrogen inflation, gas mileage will be maximized. if they are. > 2.. Tire Life Improvements: Since the permeation of oxygen through the > sidewall is minimized with nitrogen tire inflation, rubber retains its > strength longer. This, coupled with the better pressure retention, provides > longer tire life. tires wear out /long/ before they oxidize. > 3.. Safety: Underinflation was a factor in 32,000 automobile fatalities > in 1999. This is minimized with nitrogen. not any more than with air and properly checked tires it doesn't. > 4.. Environment: Underinflated tires waste 2.8B gallons of gasoline/year > and emit additional greenhouse gases. Maintaining your proper tire pressure > longer helps to minimize both wasted gasoline and greenhouse gases. > Here is a piece of literature from Bridgestone that explains these benefits > well. bogus - that assumes underinflation which can occur just as easily with nitrogen if neglected. > http://www.getnitrogen.org/pdf/Bridgestone.pdf > >> Hi, >> Just wondered what if topping up with ordinary air to a nitrogn filled >> tires. What would happen? Good, bad or any harm? OK Jimmy. I guess I am not a literary expert so I shall comment for each of your comments to try to clarify the meaning. Some of the statements might be applicable to some people more than others. Each person has to determine if the value is there for them before changing to Nitrogen. I have used Nitrogen in my aircraft tires and have found if the tires are on a hot airport ramp in the summer or in the middle of a Minnesota winter the tire pressure does not change much. A small tank of Nitrogen with a regulator on it does not cost very much and will fill all the tires the average person has for many years. Even the tire on my wheelbarrow has Nitrogen as I just don't check it's pressure every time I use it. Enough said Jim. Lighten up a little. Paul > <reposted to ignore ancient thread> > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > eh? but fill air is not heated, and certainly not to 75'F when it's 35'F > ambient. that's a bogus argument. **I think it would be warm in a service shop in the winter. Also compressing air creates heat so the air being used to inflate a tire could easly be 75'F when the outside temp would be not only 35F but maybe -35F.** >> These fluctuations will occur as the temperature rises and falls, >> regardless of the inflation gas. Fortunately, tire manufacturers are [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > bogus reasoning. **I wonder what your source is in making that statement?** >> The properties of nitrogen tire inflation are well known: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > that's because of partial pressures, not because nitrogen diffuses through > rubber slower. **I wonder why many tire company's say nitrogen filled tires hold pressure longer** >> 2.. Nitrogen is very dry, with a dewpoint of about -50F. This >> eliminates any moisture (liquid or vapor) within the tire casing. > > no, it's not "dry" any more than air without water vapor in it. **We have used Nitrogen for many years to fill communications cables because it is dry. I suppose if you filled your tires in the middle of the Saraha desert the air would be fairly dry but in Minnesota it would be about 50% wet most of the time.** >> 3.. Nitrogen is non-reactive and practically halts breakdown of the >> rubber. > > ok, not that oxidation is a significant problem though... **Gee, I'm glad you agree with one statement. LOL** >> These properties yield a variety of benefits for the average driver >> >> 1.. Fuel Efficiency Improvements: By maintaining proper tire pressure >> longer with nitrogen inflation, gas mileage will be maximized. > > if they are. **A lot of people do not check their tire pressure very often.** >> 2.. Tire Life Improvements: Since the permeation of oxygen through the >> sidewall is minimized with nitrogen tire inflation, rubber retains its >> strength longer. This, coupled with the better pressure retention, >> provides longer tire life. > > tires wear out /long/ before they oxidize. **Maybe your's do but there are many vehicles that have older tires on them.** >> 3.. Safety: Underinflation was a factor in 32,000 automobile >> fatalities in 1999. This is minimized with nitrogen. > > not any more than with air and properly checked tires it doesn't. **Again many people do not check tire pressure on a regular basis.** >> 4.. Environment: Underinflated tires waste 2.8B gallons of >> gasoline/year and emit additional greenhouse gases. Maintaining your [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > bogus - that assumes underinflation which can occur just as easily with > nitrogen if neglected. **Somewhat true but if they don't loose pressure as fast then they would not be underinflated as often.** >> http://www.getnitrogen.org/pdf/Bridgestone.pdf >> >>> Hi, >>> Just wondered what if topping up with ordinary air to a nitrogn filled >>> tires. What would happen? Good, bad or any harm? > OK Jimmy. I guess I am not a literary expert so I shall comment for each of > your comments to try to clarify the meaning. Some of the statements might [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > airport ramp in the summer or in the middle of a Minnesota winter the tire > pressure does not change much. for a/c, you want to make sure you have all the bases covered. for cars though, it's simply pointless, although a great additional source of revenue for tire shops. > A small tank of Nitrogen with a regulator on > it does not cost very much and will fill all the tires the average person > has for many years. that's a joke, right? wtf would anyone, who understood the facts at any rate, spend money doing that when they can use air for free at the gas station??????????????? > Even the tire on my wheelbarrow has Nitrogen ok, that's just ridiculous. > as I just > don't check it's pressure every time I use it. > > Enough said Jim. Lighten up a little. > > Paul and you keep inflating your aerospace grade wheelbarrow with nitrogen paul!!! got to make sure those tire pressures are safe after re-entry! >> <reposted to ignore ancient thread> >> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > compressing air creates heat so the air being used to inflate a tire could > easly be 75'F in the compressor, but not in the tank or the feed lines. and even if it was "hot" in the tank and feed lines, it still loses temperature immediately it gets into the tire - it's an adiabatic process. > when the outside temp would be not only 35F but maybe -35F.** bogus. see above. >>> These fluctuations will occur as the temperature rises and falls, >>> regardless of the inflation gas. Fortunately, tire manufacturers are [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > **I wonder why many tire company's say nitrogen filled tires hold pressure > longer** it's true, they do because of partial pressures - look it up. but that means the tire fills with other atmospheric gases while it's losing nitrogen. >>> 2.. Nitrogen is very dry, with a dewpoint of about -50F. This >>> eliminates any moisture (liquid or vapor) within the tire casing. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > desert the air would be fairly dry but in Minnesota it would be about 50% > wet most of the time.** that's a water vapor/freezing thing. for a car, the only time it's going to be an issue is if the valve freezes. and by far the most likely cause there is not using a dust cap - hardly an issue solved by nitrogen. >>> 3.. Nitrogen is non-reactive and practically halts breakdown of the >>> rubber. >> ok, not that oxidation is a significant problem though... > **Gee, I'm glad you agree with one statement. LOL** do /you/ think oxidation is a significant problem??? >>> These properties yield a variety of benefits for the average driver >>> >>> 1.. Fuel Efficiency Improvements: By maintaining proper tire pressure >>> longer with nitrogen inflation, gas mileage will be maximized. >> if they are. > **A lot of people do not check their tire pressure very often.** so? which do you think makes the most difference? not checking nitrogen pressures or not checking air pressures? and which are more likely to be checked - the tires you can inflate at the gas station or the ones you have to go to the tire shop for and wait in line??? >>> 2.. Tire Life Improvements: Since the permeation of oxygen through the >>> sidewall is minimized with nitrogen tire inflation, rubber retains its [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > **Maybe your's do but there are many vehicles that have older tires on > them.** do /not/ confuse oxidation with u.v. deterioration. the former is almost never seen, the latter is endemic. >>> 3.. Safety: Underinflation was a factor in 32,000 automobile >>> fatalities in 1999. This is minimized with nitrogen. >> not any more than with air and properly checked tires it doesn't. > **Again many people do not check tire pressure on a regular basis.** particularly so if they have to go to a tire shop and wait in line!!! >>> 4.. Environment: Underinflated tires waste 2.8B gallons of >>> gasoline/year and emit additional greenhouse gases. Maintaining your [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > **Somewhat true but if they don't loose pressure as fast then they would not > be underinflated as often.** but that is negated by the inconvenience of unavailability. >>> http://www.getnitrogen.org/pdf/Bridgestone.pdf >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> Just wondered what if topping up with ordinary air to a nitrogn filled >>>> tires. What would happen? Good, bad or any harm? > Each person has to determine > if the value is there for them "Each " is singular, therefore each person must determine if the value is there for him, not for them. What if it is a her? >> Each person has to determine >> if the value is there for them > > "Each " is singular, therefore each person must determine if the value > is there for him, not for them. > >> Each person has to determine > >> if the value is there for them [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > What if it is a her? If you are referring to a specific individual AND know that it's a woman, you use "her". Otherwise, you use "him" as a general use singular pronoun. (I wonder what the politically correct crowd is going to do when they finally attack Spanish and French and all those masculine and feminine nouns...) > **I wonder why many tire company's say nitrogen filled tires hold pressure > longer** My tires have, what--78.084% nitrogen in them. Problem solved. Great! Your 78% there.... LOL >> **I wonder why many tire company's say nitrogen filled tires hold >> pressure [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Problem solved. > Great! Your 78% there.... 78% of the way to not wasting your money on making your aerospace grade wheelbarrow fit for re-entry to earth's atmosphere after orbiting planet ain't-gotta-clue. and it's "you're" as in "you are", not "your". > LOL yes indeed. >>> **I wonder why many tire company's say nitrogen filled tires hold >>> pressure >>> longer** >> My tires have, what--78.084% nitrogen in them. >> >> Problem solved. Is your glass half full or half empty??? >> Great! Your 78% there.... > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >>> >>> Problem solved. Kind of comical when you consider he doesn't know where or how to use a shift key... JT > Is your glass half full or half empty??? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >>and it's "you're" as in "you are", not "your". > Kind of comical when you consider he doesn't know where or how to use a > shift key... does that somehow switch off top posting??? if so, maybe you should look into using one. meanwhile, unlike you two, i know what diffusion is and know what partial pressures are. maybe if you two redeployed the time you spend wasting electrons on usenet posting irrelevant garbage, you'd learn something useful. > JT > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >>> >>> and it's "you're" as in "you are", not "your". Hello there Mr. Jim Beam; I think from now on instead of using Google and the other search engines, the encyclopedia, television, the Library and others for information I now can just ask you because you know everything. Paul >> Kind of comical when you consider he doesn't know where or how to use a >> shift key... [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >>>> >>>> and it's "you're" as in "you are", not "your". |
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