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Car Forum / Honda Cars / August 2004weak pedal after bleeding (4X!)
1995 Del Sol VTEC. I've hit a roadblock. I've bled the system 4X and flushed out the old brake fluid with motomaster crap before flushing it again with genuine honda fluid. Although it's my first time bleeding brakes, at this point, I'm pretty sure there is no air in the system. I tightened the banjo bolts extra well (had them off prior to paint calipers - realize that put air in the system), and i made sure to tighten the bleed nipple sufficiently during the bleeding process. At first we started pumping the brakes about 10X then bleeding. I noticed a leak under the engine at some point afterwards - looks like it might have been brake master cylinder. Perhaps I created too much pressure in the hydraulic brake pressure by pumping 10X? Anyway, I proceeded to pump only 2-4X per bleeding cycle. Now when I was all done, I had a firm feel to the pedal. As soon as I started the car, the pedal sinks to the floor and is very weak and offers no resistance. The way it is now, it's worse than it was before in terms of pedal feel. (very soft, and pedal doesn't gradually rise with subsequent pumps) Any ideas? > 1995 Del Sol VTEC. > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Any ideas? ===================== It sounds like your helper pushed the brake pedal too close to the floor. You're never supposed to push it any farther than it travelled in it's lifetime, because there's grit / filings / corrosion in the lower recesses of the master's piston, just waiting for the seal to travel too far and get mutilated. Replace the master with a rebuilt or new. Put wood 2x4 under pedal next time. Also bleed with engine OFF and all vacuum released by pumping pedal lightly a few times. Blead from front left, front right, rear right, rear left. (assuming your car has the steering wheel on the left side) Sorry:-( 'Curly' >> 1995 Del Sol VTEC. >> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Sorry:-( 'Curly' with respect, i don't agree. i've replaced master cylinders on many vehicles with really stupid configurations /way/ less sensible than a honda, and sometimes, the /only/ way to get them to bleed /is/ to press the pedal to the floor. even if you have a vacuum/pressure bleeder. this is particularly true in a tandem cylinder where the second piston only moves if the first is fully bled or the first sinks low enough for the two to touch. i know a lot of folks swear that you should never floor an old cylinder, and there is an element of truth to that, but otoh, if a cylinder fails after such an operation, it is just as likely that the cylinder was on the way out anyway. in addition, there can also be a reaction between new brake fluid and old seal rubbers as well, so failure is not always a direct result of this mechanical action. bottom line, proper bleeding is much more important than trying to preserve a dodgy old cylinder. if the cylinder subsequently fails, replace it and than don't worry about it for another decade. and remember to change the fluid every year next time - it slows rubber deterioration. <snip> > 1995 Del Sol VTEC. > Now when I was all done, I had a firm feel to the pedal. As soon as I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Any ideas? I Agree with Curly, you messed up the seals in the master cylinder. Don't feel to bad about it, it is a common mistake. I did it too way back when when I was young and dumb. I did have the sense to do it to my brother's car, not my own, though. I'd say the master cylinder is probably gone. To see if this is the case, take it out and look inside the booster for brake fluid. If there is brake fluid in the booster, the master cylinder is definitely shot. Replace if this is the case. When bleeding the brakes, to ensure proper air escape from the lines, do in this order: Right-rear, Left-rear, Right-front, Left-front. If you'll notice, the pattern is directly related to the distance from the master cylinder. (The right-rear is the farthest, left-front is closest) I know someone else said to do it another way, but I can tell you from doing this a number of times, the order I just mentioned works best. Also, everytime I've bled my brakes, I do it with the car running. Again, others may disagree, and they may have valid points, but on my 1990 Civic and my wife's 1986 Acura Legend, doing it with the car running worked the best. (The car has power brakes, so therefore you must have power to operate correctly) Generally, it takes two people to bleed the system properly. One to pump-n-press, and one to bleed the lines. The way I've always done it is to pump about 4-6 times, then press and hold. At that time the person bleeding the lines should loosen the bolt to allow air and fluid to escape. When the pedal hits the floor, holler and tell the other person so he'll know to tighten the valve back up after all air escapes. When all air is out of the line, he should tighten the valve and tell you to let up on the pedal. Repeat until all 4 wheels are done. Good luck! Jonathan P.S. After doing this, if you have a new master cylinder and you've bled the system 2 or 3 times, and STILL don't have a firm pedal, check all brake lines for leakage, and if you have rear drum brakes, you will have to take the drum off to see if fluid is escaping INSIDE the drum. (I had this happen on my 1990 Civic) If this is the case, take it to an experienced mechanic or a dealership to repair. P.P.S. If you replace the master cylinder make sure to follow the instructions to bleed the master cylinder (yes, you have to bleed it as well) BEFORE installing it. This is CRITICAL! > 1995 Del Sol VTEC. > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Any ideas? thanks for the help guys, yes, doing in proper order. RR,FL,RL,FR....Sad part, is that I have a chiltons and a helms and I wasted a whole day on this. Yep, using clear tubing and always fully submerged in new brakefluid. Hard to judge where it was leaking from since it turned into a small puddle before I realized it. It looked as if the fluid leaked from the bolt on the side of the MC? It's difficult hard to say. I think it was the CV boot that's directly under the MC that got covered in fluid. In any case, it hasn't leaked overnight or during my second round of bleeding today. (3 pumps/bleed) Yep, bled the brakes again today. Bought new clear vinyl tubing that fits better. Bought more brake fluid, and here's the procedure I used. Pump brake 3 times, hold pedal. 1/4 turn to open bleed bolt. wait and watch fluid 10 sec. tighten bolt. repeat. We repeated this another 7 times / wheel. Watching the level in the MC carefully as not to drop and suck in air. Not once did I see air bubbles during my bleeding today, which leads me to believe there is no air in the system. I refilled the MC once, so I esentially bled it's entire capacity. I took it out on the road carefully today. The brakes ARE working. But here are my symptoms. Without ignition, pedal feel is firm/strong and rises with each subsequent pump very quickly. put once i turn on the engine, it feels soft and doesn't rise with more pumps. it takes almost the entire pedal travel before I get maximum braking. prior to the flush, it took much less pedal travel to lock up the brakes. i did a 70km/h to zero stop today and the brakes only barely locked up toward the end when ABS kicked in for 1/4 of a second. and that was pedal to the floor. I am not an expert on brakes, but i'll have to say I was also beginning to think my MC might be shot. I guess I'll make a trip to the junkyard on monday and see if i can find another MC. > I'd say the master cylinder is probably gone. To see if this is the case, > take it out and look inside the booster for brake fluid. If there is brake [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] >> >> Any ideas? > But > here are my symptoms. Without ignition, pedal feel is firm/strong and > rises with each subsequent pump very quickly. This is normal. Every pump uses up some of the vacuum stored in the booster, so each subsequent pump gets less assistance from the vacuum booster. > i did a > 70km/h to zero stop today and the brakes only barely locked up toward > the end when ABS kicked in for 1/4 of a second. and that was pedal to > the floor. Glad you weren't behind me! > I am not an expert on brakes, but i'll have to say I was also beginning > to think my MC might be shot. I guess I'll make a trip to the junkyard > on monday and see if i can find another MC. Wouldn't you rather get a new one? >> But >> here are my symptoms. Without ignition, pedal feel is firm/strong and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > booster, so each subsequent pump gets less assistance from the vacuum > booster. But with the ignition on, shouldn't the pedal behave the same way? ie: rising with more pumps? >> I am not an expert on brakes, but i'll have to say I was also beginning >> to think my MC might be shot. I guess I'll make a trip to the junkyard >> on monday and see if i can find another MC. > > Wouldn't you rather get a new one? Hmmm...do you mean from the stealership? where would you suggest I might find a new one, if not? apart from the dealership, i didn't think i'd find a new MC anywhere. thanks :) > >> I am not an expert on brakes, but i'll have to say I was also beginning > >> to think my MC might be shot. I guess I'll make a trip to the junkyard [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > thanks :) A couple of sites I've used online are: http://www.cheapesthondaparts.com/ http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/ I've used both of them before and they were great. It should definately save you some $$$ vs. going to the dealership and they are oem parts. -Dave <snip> > But with the ignition on, shouldn't the pedal behave the same way? ie: > rising with more pumps? If the brakes are working properly, pumping the pedal with the engine running should make no difference. If you have air trapped in the system, it is common for the pedal to get firmer as you pump it with the engine running. <snip> > > Wouldn't you rather get a new one? > Hmmm...do you mean from the stealership? where would you suggest I > might find a new one, if not? apart from the dealership, i didn't think > i'd find a new MC anywhere. http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com sells new OEM master cylinders for around $195. I know it is a good chunk of change, but it is a once-in-a-decade type replacement. You can probably pick up a rebuilt one for much less than that at your local auto parts store. > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > once-in-a-decade type replacement. You can probably pick up a rebuilt > one for much less than that at your local auto parts store. holy crap! I was estimating like $40 bucks for a MC, but wtf do I know?? jeeez. hehe...that's awful, and makes me feel even dumber for not blocking the brake pedal with a wooden chock. definately gonna get a new one, as the braking system is not something i'd like to test with a 'rebuilt' unit. i worked at a videogame store once where we sold refurbished hardware. what a complete farce that was, haha. nothing was tested prior to resale. majestic is in the states, is it not? so that's $195 US? Yikes. :( |
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