Car Forum / Honda Cars / September 2004
Incorrect Battery Charging Voltage?
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Caroline - 07 Sep 2004 03:54 GMT 1991 Civic LX 4-door sedan, 1.5 Liter, manual transmission, no air conditioning, 156k miles, here.
Voltage at the battery terminals when the car is -- idling = about 12.7 volts -- stopped, ignition off, also about 12.7 volts
In February, these numbers were 14.5 volts and 12. 4 volts.
Internet sources say a voltage when the car is idling of around 14 volts or so indicates a properly operating charging system. So something is wrong, IMO.
I put in a new battery (Interstate) today, replacing the old one (4-years-old; Diehard; wrong climate design as I moved from up North to the Southwest in the past year?). The voltages above didn't change.
The car is on its second alternator (OEM). This 2nd alternator is 5 years and 50k miles old.
I installed a new alternator belt in June. I originally had the belt too loose, as indicated by a squeal at cold startup. I tightened it and the squeal stopped. Unfortunately I did not at this time check the battery terminal voltage.
I did shake out quite a lot of white powder (indicating some corrosion) from the battery's positive terminal's cable connector while changing the batteries.
I'm going to do the checks at http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/ConcertoManual/62sk301/16-66.pdf this weekend.
Meanwhile, has anyone seen a condition like this? If so, what was the fix?
I think this is not critical unless I do a lot of driving with the lights on (which I do not, as I drive mostly during daylight hours). But I do feel my battery isn't going to be maintained at optimal charge and so, as winter approaches, I need to fix this.
jim beam - 07 Sep 2004 04:24 GMT does the voltage drop under load? you know, fans, lights, defrost etc., on? if it drops to say 10V, then you have a charging problem. if not, and it kicks up to 13/14V when loaded, everything's working just fine.
the alternator should have a regulator circuit that determines whether it needs to "charge hard" or not. if the battery is charged and there's minimal load, the alternator is not required to produce max output, and indeed it shouldn't in order to not fry the battery.
alternators generally fail when the diodes go. semiconductors have a limited lifetime at high temperatures, and hot climates and/or full electrical loads will keep them nice & toasty. oem alternators can last a good long time when treated conservatively.
> 1991 Civic LX 4-door sedan, 1.5 Liter, manual transmission, no air conditioning, > 156k miles, here. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > battery isn't going to be maintained at optimal charge and so, as winter > approaches, I need to fix this. Caroline - 09 Sep 2004 02:15 GMT 2nd Update, as I think now the charging system is operating normally.
> does the voltage drop under load? you know, fans, lights, defrost etc., > on? if it drops to say 10V, I checked. It drops to something between 11.8 and 13 volts *momentarily*.
> then you have a charging problem. if not, > and it kicks up to 13/14V when loaded, everything's working just fine. After the slight drop, it rises pretty quickly (3-10 seconds?) to something between 14 and 14.5 volts.
When I turn off the loads, it stays up over 14 volts for a little while. (I didn't wait for it to drop.)
If I then turn off the car, then turn it back on (no loads), the voltage is back to about 12.7 volts (here in the summertime).
I can repeat the above events merely by turning on the headlights, though it's a bit more dramatic with more electrical loads.
> the alternator should have a regulator circuit that determines whether > it needs to "charge hard" or not. if the battery is charged and there's > minimal load, the alternator is not required to produce max output, and > indeed it shouldn't in order to not fry the battery. I'm buying this.
My best guess as to what was happening in February (when unloaded, the battery terminal voltage was 14.4 volts) is that it is somehow related to the particularly cooler temperatures then compared to now.
> alternators generally fail when the diodes go. semiconductors have a > limited lifetime at high temperatures, and hot climates and/or full > electrical loads will keep them nice & toasty. oem alternators can last > a good long time when treated conservatively. Darn tootin'. I'm sure as heck not going to replace an OEM, dealer installed alternator after a lousy five years and 50k miles... :-) That puppy better make it to 100k miles or eight years, AFAIC.
I hope!
Autozone Aside: I drew on the "expertise" of the fine folks at Autozone today. They did what they said was an "alternator test." The guy hooked up to the battery terminals a sophisticated-looking electrical tester. (IOW, it does more than my $15 Radio Shack digital voltmeter.) He read off voltages while operating the throttle control manually (under the hood). He got the same sub-13 volts I got. He never changed the electrical loads. His conclusion: Buy a new alternator. My conclusion, "All he did was what I pretty much did, so not so fast." I thought he'd at least take some readings at the alternator terminal. But one gets what one pays for, I suppose. This check was free.
Firestone (where I bought my new Insterstate battery) aside: After buying and installing (in the Firestone parking lot) my new battery Monday, I checked the voltage and saw no change from my previous readings of about 12.7 volts. I popped into the Firestone showroom and asked the guy if he'd give me his opinion. He said I was wrong about the 14+ volts being usual when the car was running. I said okay and left, not wishing to start a row and knowing this was my problem, anyway. At this point, I feel the guy was speaking with some legitimacy.
Lastly: Thanks, Jim.
Eric - 07 Sep 2004 09:24 GMT > 1991 Civic LX 4-door sedan, 1.5 Liter, manual transmission, no air > conditioning, 156k miles, here. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > from the battery's positive terminal's cable connector while changing the > batteries. If my memory serves me correctly, you may want to check the battery cables for a voltage drop. Can you measure a large voltage drop (high resistance), i.e., more than 0.3-0.5V, across the battery cable? If so, then it may need to be replaced.
Note: To measure a voltage drop connect the + lead of your DVOM to the + battery terminal and the - DVOM lead to the other end of the wire at its connector.
Eric
Rex B - 07 Sep 2004 15:46 GMT ||1991 Civic LX 4-door sedan, 1.5 Liter, manual transmission, no air conditioning, ||156k miles, here. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] ||battery isn't going to be maintained at optimal charge and so, as winter ||approaches, I need to fix this. Caroline If your boltage reads 12.7 with motor off, motor on, and motor revved up a little, then you alternator is toast. 13.2V is a bare minimum and it should have that at idle of just above. 12.7 means a fully charged battery.
Texas Parts Guy
Abeness - 07 Sep 2004 17:23 GMT > If your boltage reads 12.7 with motor off, motor on, and motor revved up a > little, then you alternator is toast. 13.2V is a bare minimum and it should have > that at idle of just above. 12.7 means a fully charged battery. Do Honda's have voltage regulators? ISTR that a dead voltage regulator could lead to the appearance of a dead alternator in 80s GM cars, but I may be misremembering.
Abe
mark smith - 07 Sep 2004 17:21 GMT > 1991 Civic LX 4-door sedan, 1.5 Liter, manual transmission, no air conditioning, > 156k miles, here. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > battery isn't going to be maintained at optimal charge and so, as winter > approaches, I need to fix this. hi caroline If the idle voltage is the same as the no load voltage,i.e. car stopped,it looks as if the alternator is not putting out any charge...another recon needed?? hope this helps spike
John Ings - 07 Sep 2004 17:31 GMT >I did shake out quite a lot of white powder (indicating some corrosion) from the >battery's positive terminal's cable connector while changing the batteries. Clean your battery cable clamps with a round wire brush. Check the cable itself under the insulation near the clamp, make sure it isn't corroded under there. Check both cable connections at the other end, especially the ground cable. Unbolt them, clean with a file and reconnect. Half an ohm resistance in a 115 volt circuit is nothing. Half an ohm in a 12 volt battery cable is a big deal. Do the math E = IR If the alternator wants to put 20 amps into the battery, .5 X 20 = 10 volts drop.
SoCalMike - 07 Sep 2004 19:17 GMT John Ings wrote:
>>I did shake out quite a lot of white powder (indicating some corrosion) from the >>battery's positive terminal's cable connector while changing the batteries. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > E = IR If the alternator wants to put 20 amps into the battery, > .5 X 20 = 10 volts drop. theyre worth replacing, regardless. along with the connection to the alternator. if the readings still dont improve, its new rebuilt alternator time.
Randolph - 07 Sep 2004 22:20 GMT Caroline,
The voltage regulator has two settings. Under normal operation the output voltage should be 14.5 V +/- 0.6V. At idle with a warmed up engine (and a few other requirements) the voltage is dropped to save fuel. Try measuring the voltages again, but this time step on the brake pedal when you measure the voltage at idle (stepping on the brakes will force the voltage regulator into the 14.5 V mode). When you measured in February, perhaps the engine wasn't fully warmed up?
> 1991 Civic LX 4-door sedan, 1.5 Liter, manual transmission, no air conditioning, > 156k miles, here. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > battery isn't going to be maintained at optimal charge and so, as winter > approaches, I need to fix this. Caroline - 09 Sep 2004 00:08 GMT Randolph,
I understand what you're saying and so checked the voltage at the battery terminals first thing this morning, before the engine had anywhere near warmed. Voltage at the battery terminals remained about 12.7 volts, whether idling or not.
I am not sure whether the engine was warmed up or not when I checked and got proper voltage readings this past February. But regardless, in the future I agree this is something to consider.
The car continues to run fine. I drove it with the headlights and radio on in darkness for about 50 minutes last night and another 50 minutes this morning.
Thanks Jim, Eric, Rex, Mark (= spike), John, Abeness, and Mike for your input. All has been considered. I can't reject any of the theories and am bearing all in mind as I continue to work on this. I have made progress. See below.
John, I'm going to go work on cleaning up the battery cables, especially the ends, a bit more this afternoon.
Mike, I'm looking into replacing as many battery cables as I can easily do. Some of these wire harnesses/bundles seem like a bit of a morass to get into. I guess there's an argument that (low load?) wires age with time and so should be replaced every so often, but I wonder whether the amperage load through these wires is low enough that they tend to last a very long time. They don't see the same sort of load (via fatigue?) that spark plug wires see, I reckon.
Abeness, yes, Majestic Honda online indicates this alternator has a regulator (assembly).
Further Update:
This afternoon I started the steps at http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/ConcertoManual/62sk301/16-66.pdf and got to about #6. The first thing I noticed was that the alternator connector's plastic fitting (see step 2) was partly broken on the female (= alternator) side. This breakage is around the piece that snaps to hold the connector very securely in place. It looked like maybe someone had got rough with it and pried the connector free, breaking the plastic in the process. (I don't recall disconnecting the alternator connector in the past, but maybe it was in the way and I did disconnect it at some point. Or maybe I broke it today while disconnecting it! It's kinda hard to see down there. It came free too easily, based on my experience with similar connectors where a little screwdriver may be used to free up the plastic clip. I suppose the techs who put in the new alternator several years ago may have broken it, too. Anyway, it's now busted plastic... )
I went ahead and checked for an open electrical connection (black/yellow wire from alternator to fuse box) per step 2 and found none.
I perused steps 3-6 and saw where the procedure was going, but I didn't have enough equuipment to fully test the regulator. Nonetheless, I did check the voltage difference between alternator terminal B and ground for different loads. Results:
Under no load, and I guess somewhat warmed up (I'd been driving but the car had been sitting for about an hour. The engine was hot to the touch.), voltage from terminal B to ground = 14.4 volts.
With headlights, defroster, cabin fan, and hazard lights on, the voltage from terminal B to ground = about 13 volts.
The readings at the battery terminals under these conditions were just a little lower, like 14.3 and 12.8.
So now the car is getting over 14 volts at the battery when idling(!)
My latest theory is that the alternator connector had come loose, possibly because of the broken plastic fitting, possibly because of all the monkeying I've been doing with the car in general in the last several months.
I will keep checking and, if you don't hear further from me, for the sake of the archives, assume I (my car) was bamboozled by a somewhat busted alternator connector, allowing it to come partly loose.
> Caroline, > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > battery isn't going to be maintained at optimal charge and so, as winter > > approaches, I need to fix this. Graham W - 09 Sep 2004 16:43 GMT <...>
> John, I'm going to go work on cleaning up the battery cables, > especially the ends, a bit more this afternoon. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > morass to get into. I guess there's an argument that (low load?) > wires age with time and so should be replaced every so often, No, there isn't! Wires in everyday appliances like cars and TVs don't wear out. If anything, the insulation around the conductor can slowly deteriorate and the terminals can go grotty but the wire is OK.
> but I > wonder whether the amperage load through these wires is low enough > that they tend to last a very long time. They don't see the same sort > of load (via fatigue?) that spark plug wires see, I reckon. There's a different kettle of fish! There is no wire in the plug wires! What is there is a fluffy string soaked in (dry) carbon powder to act as a very long thin resistor. When the string breaks, the cradle will fallxxx (oops) the gap between the carbon ends saps the energy of the spark leading to a weak spark. So leave your wires alone except to check the connections and clean/repair/renew as required.
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