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Car Forum / Honda Cars / September 20041993 Civic Hard Starting Problem
My wife's 93 Civic is sometimes hard to start. I have a few questions that I hope the answers to which will help me find the problem. First, a few statements of fact: *The car is a Civic DX with a manual trans. *The car usually starts right up with no issues. *When it does not immediately start, waiting a few minutes and trying again is usually all that's required. *The problem "feels" like a fuel delivery problem. It cranks nice and fast. When it does finally start, it sometimes catches intermitently as if it weren't getting enough fuel. *My plan of attack for this morning is a complete tune-up. I'm going to replace cap, rotor, ignition wires, spark plugs, air and fuel filters. Questions: *What years did Honda have the well-known "igniter problem"? Could a 1993 Civic possibly be experiencing this? *The fuel filter is the funkiest I've ever seen. The fittings look like high pressure fittings. Anything to the procedure of replacing it that one without a manual might want to watch out for? *Anybody else got any ideas from your own experience about what may be going on? THANKS! > My wife's 93 Civic is sometimes hard to start. I have a few questions > that I hope the answers to which will help me find the problem. First, [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > THANKS! It's more likely the main relay,which activates the electric fuel pump. Check out this site; http://www.markl.f9.co.uk/howto/electrical/main-relay/main-relay.htm Resoldering the relay saves you $50USD.  SignatureJim Yanik jyanik-at-kua.net >>My wife's 93 Civic is sometimes hard to start. I have a few questions >>that I hope the answers to which will help me find the problem. First, [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Resoldering the relay saves you $50USD. I appreciate the quick response and the useful link. I'll give that a shot and get back to you. THANKS VERY MUCH. I had a similar problem and you may want to check your timing belt. If your car has jumped time, it will be hard to start at different times, but there can be horerendous engine damage if the situation is not corrected in time in the form of bent valves and wrecked pistons. lackej1971 > My wife's 93 Civic is sometimes hard to start. <SNIP> *Anybody else got any ideas from your own experience about what may be > going on? > > THANKS! ========================= It's the Main relay, 99% sure. As for the other stuff, wires almost never seem to need replacing, fuel filter only manifests while climbing hill with full car at top speed, cap & rotor last a long time too. Save your money for now, unless the cap is arcing or terminals are getting burned up. You can smack the dash to make it start when it acts up, with key in position II. :-) Don't try to remove the relay completely. With battery disconnected, slip the guts out of the shell instead, using the connector for something to wiggle it with. 'Curly' > > My wife's 93 Civic is sometimes hard to start. <SNIP> > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > 'Curly' Kind of hard to resolder the likely bad connections with the relay in the socket. A better idea would be to dislconnect the negaitve lead, remoce the realy(removing the coin tray and the hood latch will help(as will a trained spider monkey, it is a little tight for a 6'2" person!),remove the fuse tray cover and remove the entire bracket, it is held in place with a 10mm bolt. Remove the relay, carefully remove the pritned circuit/realy assembbly from the plast case, if you don't know how to solder find someone who does. It is too easy to overheat and lossen the copper foil. Remove the old solder with either solder wick or a solder sucker, resolder with good quality rosin core(DO NOT USE ACID CORE!!!!!!), one site sugested protecting thhe soldered surfaces with "silicon confromal spray", andI think that is a good choice, be sure to tape the relays so that spray will NOT get on them. I found the reinstallation the hardest part, Imy big hands just had major problems getting the 10mm bolt started. I found this site http://techauto.tripod.com/ to be vdery helpfull, too bad the link on the ignitor page to "bench testing" was dead. And yes the fuel system is under pretyy high preasure, you don't want a leak sparying gas all under the hood. replace the wahsers under the "Banjo" coneectors and the 10mm? bleed bolt, place a celan cloth around and under the fuel filet to catch any seepage, turn 1 turn an allow preasurised fuel to esacpe BEFORE losening the "banjo bolts"! The data I have (from F-Basic testing) is for a 1993 specific but says it is for ALL fuel injected Civics gives 40~47 with the vacuum hose disconnected,a nd 30~38 with the vacuum hose conencted. This is at idel. Terry >>It's the Main relay, 99% sure. As for the other stuff, wires almost >>never seem to need replacing, fuel filter only manifests while climbing [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Kind of hard to resolder the likely bad connections with the relay in > the socket. ======== My Bad wording.. I meant: Don't try to remove the whole relay... use the connector to pull the guts out of the case (leave the case bolted to the car) Then take the circuit inside to resolder. 'Curly' If your car's symptoms are consistent with the symptoms given at the link Jim gave, then I agree with the others the main relay is the likely culprit. If this happens in hot weather in particular, the main relay is most likely the problem. Re the igniter-- It tends to fail completely, so the car won't eventually restart. Yes, your 93 Civic may very well be among those that had this problem. If it's never been replaced on your car, you might consider doing so as a pre-emptive measure. Re the fuel filter: www.autozone.com has free repair guides! Look for the "repair guides" link and follow the pointers to fuel system or similar. Replacing the fuel filter should be there. On my 1991 Civic, it was a little tricky fitting the wrenches to get the thing out, but after doing it once, it's a piece of cake. Another site you might like: http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/workshopmanuals2.html Try the 1990-1994 Honda Concerto manual in particular. I think it has the same engine as the early 1990s Civics. The steps for replacing the fuel filter should be in there. Updates welcome, to go into the archive and help others in the future. Good luck! > My wife's 93 Civic is sometimes hard to start. I have a few questions > that I hope the answers to which will help me find the problem. First, [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > *Anybody else got any ideas from your own experience about what may be > going on? > My wife's 93 Civic is sometimes hard to start. I have a few questions > that I hope the answers to which will help me find the problem. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > *Anybody else got any ideas from your own experience about what may be > going on? I'd lay money on it being the distributor cap! Clean it off with an oily rag and see if that produces consistent starting. If it does, it is your choice whether to clean it up properly, in the sink, with soap and water, thoroughly dry and then a silicone polish to seal the surface inside and out. I was disappointed in reading other respondants suggestions about the Main Relay that none of them offered you an easy way of seeing or rather hearing if the Main Relay dry joint is a likely problem. What you need to do is turn the radio off and the heater/AC too to get a quiet environment in the car prior to starting. Turn the key to position II and listen for the fuel pump running during the time that the Check Engine Light is lit. If it runs, the Main Relay isn't the problem. Easy huh? Let us all know what you find. -- Graham W http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial WIMBORNE http://www.wessex-astro-society.freeserve.co.uk/ Wessex Dorset UK Astro Society's Web pages, Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter. >> My wife's 93 Civic is sometimes hard to start. I have a few >> questions that I hope the answers to which will help me find the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> and fast. When it does finally start, it sometimes catches >> intermitently as if it weren't getting enough fuel. . > I was disappointed in reading other respondants suggestions about the > Main Relay that none of them offered you an easy way of seeing or > rather hearing if the Main Relay dry joint is a likely problem. The main relay is such a common problem,why not resolder it and be certain it's eliminated as a source of trouble? It doen't cost anything except a little time. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik-at-kua.net >>>My wife's 93 Civic is sometimes hard to start. I have a few >>>questions that I hope the answers to which will help me find the [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > it's eliminated as a source of trouble? It doen't cost anything except a > little time. I really do appreciate all the quick help. THANK YOU ALL. As to listening for the fuel pump running, I did that before I posted. I didn't hear it, but I didn't know and couldn't recall if the fuel pump on this car is audible. So, in summary, when I turned it to II before getting to work, I heard nothing. I also did not try just jumpering around the relay to see if I heard anything. I probably should have. Now comes the disappointing part of the summary. I also didn't post until after I bought everything for a complete tune-up. So, in addition to resoldering all the joints on the main relay assembly as described in the main relay link, (EXCELLENT LINK BTW - the symptoms there were a much better description of what was going on with my wife's car than I managed to put in my post. SPECIAL THANKS to Jim Yanik for posting that. It was perfect), I also did the complete tune-up. As soon as I was done with wires, plugs, fuel filter, air filter, cap, rotor, and resoldering all the main relay connections, it started right up. We'll drive it around for a week or so and post again regarding whether this was an actual fix or a pretty good, but incorrect, guess. THANKS AGAIN for all the great help. I really appreciate it. >>> My wife's 93 Civic is sometimes hard to start. I have a few >>> questions that I hope the answers to which will help me find the [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > certain it's eliminated as a source of trouble? It doen't cost > anything except a little time. Err.. "..If it ain't broke, don't fix it.." comes to mind which is pretty close to "..If it ain't broke, fix it till it is!..". 8¬) -- Graham W http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial WIMBORNE http://www.wessex-astro-society.freeserve.co.uk/ Wessex Dorset UK Astro Society's Web pages, Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter. It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or listening to all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and drive on. You'll never get your solder joints to last like the mfr's. Vibration in your car will get you right back to an open circuit at the most inopportune time. Every body has their opinions, just like everyone has an a--hole, but I've had my a--hole for over fifty years and thirty plus of them me and my a--hole have been working on Honda's. Take it from experience. Good luck! H > My wife's 93 Civic is sometimes hard to start. I have a few questions > that I hope the answers to which will help me find the problem. First, [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > THANKS! > It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or > listening to all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and drive > on. You'll never get your solder joints to last like the mfr's. That's nonsense.(about their solder joints lasting longer) If that's the sort of 'advice' you have to offer.... And I can save $50 with such little labor. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik-at-kua.net >>It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or >>listening to all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and drive [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > And I can save $50 with such little labor. fwiw, relay contact points burn out too. when they're starting to go, they run hot, which probably accelerates/starts the solder problem in the first place. remember how bad car ignition used to be when they used old fashioned contact breakers and how they didn't last very long? relays are exactly the same type of electrical switch. in the long run, replacement /is/ the best policy. sure, a resolder job is a quick fix, and may even last a while, but if the contact points are already running hot, it's a temporary fix. i keep a resoldered spare in my glove box, but i use the new one i bought just to be sure. jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:gJednYm5v8lpW6bcRVn- qQ@comcast.com: >>>It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or >>>listening to all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and drive [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > fwiw, relay contact points burn out too. When they are not selected properly for the application. > when they're starting to go, > they run hot, which probably accelerates/starts the solder problem in > the first place. remember how bad car ignition used to be when they > used old fashioned contact breakers and how they didn't last very long? Yes,electrical engineering was not very advanced in those days. Also,the buzzer type of ignition had to make/break contact many times per second(thousands?),greatly increasing wear,and there was also flyback arcing from the coil,which probably was the biggest factor in contact burning.The Honda main relay only makes/breaks when the ignition is turned on/off,once per trip. > relays are exactly the same type of electrical switch. > > in the long run, replacement /is/ the best policy. sure, a resolder job > is a quick fix, and may even last a while, but if the contact points are > already running hot, it's a temporary fix. i keep a resoldered spare in > my glove box, but i use the new one i bought just to be sure. That does not take into consideration bad batches from the factory. These things are soldered on wave-soldering machines,and it's easy to get solder problems and marginal solder joints.And even humans can have a bad day.Like buying a car made on Mondays. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik-at-kua.net > jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:gJednYm5v8lpW6bcRVn- > qQ@comcast.com: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > burning.The Honda main relay only makes/breaks when the ignition is turned > on/off,once per trip. the back emf arcing is pretty much dealt with by putting a diode in parallel with the coil - it conducts the breakdown current rather than allowing the points to arc - and that's what these relays have built in. so that reduces the rate of contact point wear, but they still wear, and when they wear, they run hot. that's why the relay is of massive copper construction - to conduct some of the heat away from the contacts. the part of the relay that's running the fuel pump is also responsible for switching a big reactive load, which doesn't help. you can argue that the relay is not big enough for the job, but otoh, a 10 year relay's not bad in the grand scheme of things. >> relays are exactly the same type of electrical switch. >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > solder problems and marginal solder joints.And even humans can have a bad > day.Like buying a car made on Mondays. reject rates on machine soldered work are /way/ less than human soldered. >> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:gJednYm5v8lpW6bcRVn- >> qQ@comcast.com: [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > reject rates on machine soldered work are /way/ less than human > soldered. I bet the early coil/breaker ignitions did NOT have any diode to proect from back EMF. Also,I suspect there haven't been many -worn out- main relays that were due to contact wear,if any. Just cracked solder joints due to aging of the solder alloy itself,or thermal cycling unrelated to current flow thru the contacts.The current drawn by the main relay is not enough to heat up those contacts,especially with the low make/break duty cycle. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik-at-kua.net >>>jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:gJednYm5v8lpW6bcRVn- >>>qQ@comcast.com: [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > I bet the early coil/breaker ignitions did NOT have any diode to proect > from back EMF. no, but they had a condenser, which helps. you can't completely kill back emf on a contact breaker circuit because that's what creates the spark on the ht side of the coil. > Also,I suspect there haven't been many -worn out- main relays that were due > to contact wear,if any. Just cracked solder joints due to aging of the > solder alloy itself,or thermal cycling unrelated to current flow thru the > contacts.The current drawn by the main relay is not enough to heat up those > contacts,especially with the low make/break duty cycle. the contacts don't heat much when new, but after a while in operation, even with spark protection, the contact points get eroded. it may not look much to the naked eye, but reality is that the actual surface contact area decreases - you can see all the little hills & valleys that have been eaten away under a microscope. as the current per unit area increases [same current divided by less area], operating temperature increases. tin/lead solders don't "age", but as stated by randolph, solder has poor mechanical properties. thermal cycling & mechanical stress can easily fatigue it. soldered joints not subject to these conditions can last virtually forever. >>>>jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:gJednYm5v8lpW6bcRVn- >>>>qQ@comcast.com: [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > back emf on a contact breaker circuit because that's what creates the > spark on the ht side of the coil. Well,now we have diodes that can take the back EMF,back then we didn't,had to use big stacks of selenium wafers for rectifiers,and they were SLOW(in turn-off time,critical for flyback operation).Your PC power supply works just fine using diode snubbers in the flyback mode supply.They even make the switching transistors with on-substrate diodes for this purpose. >> Also,I suspect there haven't been many -worn out- main relays that >> were due to contact wear,if any. Just cracked solder joints due to [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > area increases [same current divided by less area], operating > temperature increases. Yes,and for the -main relay- we're discussing,how often does the make/break happen? Not anything like a automotive ignition doing it thousands of times per second,nor is there a high current. > tin/lead solders don't "age",but as stated by randolph, solder has > poor mechanical properties. thermal cycling & mechanical stress can > easily fatigue it. soldered joints not subject to these conditions > can last virtually forever. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik-at-kua.net >>>>>jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:gJednYm5v8lpW6bcRVn- >>>>>qQ@comcast.com: [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > just fine using diode snubbers in the flyback mode supply.They even make > the switching transistors with on-substrate diodes for this purpose. jim, sorry if i'm coming across as unclear. diodes on relays aren't used in normal forward conduct mode. think about it: if they conducted the current used to energise the coil, the coil would never activate. so they're oriented the opposite way. where's the benefit? well, when the magnetic field energy of the solenoid breaks down after switch-off, it changes rapidly. a rapidly changing magnetic field induces an electric current in the coil that just happens to be wrapped around it. depending on the number of turns & rate of decay, that current can have many thousands of volts. diodes break down and conduct reverse voltage at some level, and this level of breakdown can be carefully designed. so, the diodes used to protect relay circuits do this at some appropriate level - whatever - and so the voltage spike never goes beyond this, hence protection. the devices used in switch mode power supplies are a very different creature. unlike simple full wave rectifiers that conduct the whole waveform, switching devices need to be able to switch a forward current in the middle of a wave. this means a very large momentary power dissipation within the device, so to do this successfully, [semiconductors are not great power dissipators] the switch needs to be /fast/. the two operations are very different and there is no simple analogy between them. >>>Also,I suspect there haven't been many -worn out- main relays that >>>were due to contact wear,if any. Just cracked solder joints due to [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > happen? Not anything like a automotive ignition doing it thousands of times > per second,nor is there a high current. well, you're right that the switch count is not high, but take one of these relays apart, particularly if you get a chance to put it under a microscope, and you'll see the contact erosion. also, it's switching the fuel pump which has a fairly large coil in it.... >>tin/lead solders don't "age",but as stated by randolph, solder has >>poor mechanical properties. thermal cycling & mechanical stress can >>easily fatigue it. soldered joints not subject to these conditions >>can last virtually forever. >>>>>>jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:gJednYm5v8lpW6bcRVn- >>>>>>qQ@comcast.com: [quoted text clipped - 92 lines] > [semiconductors are not great power dissipators] the switch needs to > be /fast/. But once the switching transistor turns OFF,there's still the flyback EMF that has to be dealt with (on the primary side),otherwise the switching xstr breaks down and fails due to those high voltages.That's where the fast recovery diodes enter the picture.(along with other snubbing circuitry) The fast diode allows less of the back EMF to reach the switcher xstr. BTW,the switcher transistor only dissipates power when it is ON,when it's off,it passes no current,thus no dissipation.That's why they use low ON- resistance devices,to reduce dissipation inthe switcher xstr. > the two operations are very different and there is no simple analogy > between them. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > microscope, and you'll see the contact erosion. also, it's switching > the fuel pump which has a fairly large coil in it.... And the inductance of the long wiring between relay and fuel pump windings helps limit that. >>>tin/lead solders don't "age",but as stated by randolph, solder has >>>poor mechanical properties. thermal cycling & mechanical stress can >>>easily fatigue it. soldered joints not subject to these conditions >>>can last virtually forever. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik-at-kua.net <large snip> > That does not take into consideration bad batches from the factory. > These things are soldered on wave-soldering machines,and it's easy to get > solder problems and marginal solder joints.And even humans can have a bad > day.Like buying a car made on Mondays. The problem with the failing main relays is not related to poor soldering from the factory. The problem is that solder has very poor mechanical properties. If you subject it to stress, solder will fatigue quickly. What holds the relay in place mechanically in the main relay module is the solder joints only. The relays are heavy, and after a decade of shaking, bouncing and vibrating, these solder joints will fatigue and fail. This is also why, contrary to popular belief, it is a bad idea to tin the leads before puting on crimp connectors, screw terminals etc. Honda is not the only make having this problem. Check out http://www.bmwe34.net/E34main/Maintenance/Electrical/LKM.htm for a very similar problem with BMW's "Lights Control Module". > It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or listening to > all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and drive on. You'll never get [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > a--hole have been working on Honda's. Take it from experience. Good luck! > H =============== Howard, I can solder a Honda relay ten times better (read thicker) than the factory. Why would I buy another POOR one? So I (or the next owner) can have more trouble down the (dark / rainy / lonely) road???? Beam me up, Scotty. > Howard, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Beam me up, Scotty. Well, I certainly hope I'm not in your car when your relay fails in the middle of the night on a dark road. Unless you carry around a solder iron with you. And I hope you got a few more spares, like some pistons, a starter motor, brake pads, maybe CV joint. Or maybe you can fix all of them with a solder iron? I'm not gonna buy stock in Napa till you throw away that iron! Good luck. Howard |
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