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Car Forum / Honda Cars / October 2004valve noise or pinging noise?
hello, i just replaced a broken timing belt, the car started right up after the belt replacement but now i get a rattling sound from the engine when i accelerate under load, i never hear anything when im idling or when i rev the engine in neutral, i only hear it when im accelerating . im thinking after chaning the belt the timing is too far advanced plus, i did fil the tank with 89 octane before the belt broke. could somebody please tell me if valve problems create constant chattering sounds even in neutral or do valve problems become more pronounced during acceleration. it kind of makes sense that a new belt that isnt stretched like the old one would cause the timing to be advanced so im hoping its the timing and cheap gas and not the valves. > hello, i just replaced a broken timing belt, the car started right up > after the belt replacement but now i get a rattling sound from the engine [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > one would cause the timing to be advanced so im hoping its the timing and > cheap gas and not the valves. It sounds like your engine is pinging under load. This can be very destructive for an engine so I recommend not driving your car until you solve your problem. The first step is to recheck the mechanical timing. It's easy to get the timing belt off by a tooth, so be sure to the mechanical timing is dead on. Next, have you checked the ignition timing with a timing light once you were finished replacing the timing belt? This is a standard double check that most techs perform. If everything was ok before you replaced the belt, then the ignition timing should not change as long as the mechanical timing is ok. However, if the old belt was off by a tooth and someone compensated for that by adjusting the ignition timing, then a correctly installed belt will cause pinging problems if you don't reset the ignition timing. Eric > hello, i just replaced a broken timing belt, the car started right up after > the belt replacement but now i get a rattling sound from the engine when i [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > would cause the timing to be advanced so im hoping its the timing and cheap > gas and not the valves. ======================= Breaking a belt will have about 90% chance of damaging SOMETHING. Did you ever test the valve clearances when you were putting it all back together? Have you done an (ignition) timing check with a timing light? You could just be out a tooth, so your cam is running several degrees too advanced, and causing ping, since cam drives distributor. Knowing what car and mileage would help too. 'Curly' ok, i let the car sit for hours then i went and started it up and took it for a drive. turns out it didnt make a single sound the first ten minutes, when the car warmed up it started pinging . i say pinging because i know that pinging is caused by hot spots and it makes sense that it would get worse as the engine got warmer and you cant hear it at all when the engine is cold or warm. No i never used a timing light because i dont have one, i figured if i got the mechanical timing right nothing would change. I also figure the engine is running to0 strong and smooth to have a valve problem and i think valves sound worse when the engine is cold anyway. i will retard the timing tomorrow by ear until i get a timing light, i really dont have to drive much this week anyway. I guess im very very lucky to have no valve damage . i read that only 25 percent of honda timing belt breaks end up with no damage. from now on im never going to let a timing belt go past 60k and i will check my belt every 10k. i believe i didnt get bent valves due to the fact that my belt didnt actually break, instead a few teeth on the belt just came off. there was a six inche strip on the belt with no teeth. also, there was a lot of oil and grime in the bottom of the timing belt cover, i believe that the belt slipped enough to shut off the engine but not enough to cause the pistons to crash into valves. the belt that i took out was honda oem, that's probably why. i should have bought a honda oem but i dont think i will have this car when it hits 290k. it has 230k on it now and it looks great and runs great. > ok, i let the car sit for hours then i went and started it up and took it > for a drive. turns out it didnt make a single sound the first ten minutes, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > the timing tomorrow by ear until i get a timing light, i really dont have > to drive much this week anyway. It's unlikely you'll get the timing correct by ear. You could easily be off +/- 5° and not be able to tell if it's correct. You still need to double check the mechanical timing if you haven't done that already. > I guess im very very lucky to have no valve damage . i read that only 25 > percent of honda timing belt breaks end up with no damage. from now on im > never going to let a timing belt go past 60k and i will check my belt > every 10k. Why? Simply removing the upper belt cover won't show you much except whether or not you have an oil leak. To really inspect a belt, it needs to be removed from the engine and bent backwards from it's normal orientation to open up the teeth. However, it's not recommended to do this on a good belt as it may weaken it. Just change the thing at the recommended interval and be done with it. > i believe i didnt get bent valves due to the fact that my belt didnt > actually break, instead a few teeth on the belt just came off. This IS a broken belt. It's the principle mode of failure. > there was a six inche strip on the belt with no teeth. That's more than a few. That's a near catastrophic failure. > also, there was a lot of oil and grime in the bottom of the timing belt > cover It sounds like you had a bad oil leak which caused the belt to fail. Oil contamination on the belt will soften the belt degrading the rubber and lead to its premature failure. I hope that you replaced the cam seal, front crank seal, and valve cover gasket while you were in there. Otherwise... > i believe that the belt slipped enough to shut off the engine but not > enough to cause the pistons to crash into valves. Maybe, however it doesn't take much on an interference engine to bend valves. The engine can still run being one or perhaps even two teeth off on the mechanical timing. Any more and the valves will get bent. Six inches of shredded belt teeth is more than enough to lead to damage. You may want to do a compression check once you've got the mechanical and ignition timing straightened out. > the belt that i took out was honda oem, that's probably why. i should > have bought a honda oem but i dont think i will have this car when > it hits 290k. it has 230k on it now and it looks great and runs great. Then again, you may have just gotten extraordinarily lucky. Sometimes if the belt breaks at idle, then there may not be valve damage though this is rare. However, if the belt broke with the engine at speed there are nearly always bent valves. Eric 1) actually, i retarded the timing, i believe that a retarded timing cant do damage to the engine like advanced timing can, perhaps i will get low effiiciency on gas but i wont run the risk of damaging pistons and valves . 2) i seriously doubt that i have bent valves. my theory like i said before , is that some teeth came off and the engine stopped. when i pulled over i tried to crank the car then tried to crank it in the impound lot, that might ripped more teeth off. 3) the belt didnt break due to an oil leak its due to the fact that the belt probably has 100k+ miles on it. i replaced it with a new dayco belt that i bought at strauss discount auto. 3) i really dont think the mechanical timing is off because after i put the new timing belt on and tensioned it, i set the first piston to tdc and checked the marks on the pulley twice. 4) i retarded the timing last night and every thing is running perfectly with no noises but i will still get a timing light and adjust it next week. 5) im the luckiest man on earth hahahhaha 86-89 accord usually DON'T bend valves when the belt breaks. If you had done this in an 88 prelude Si, you'd be the luckiest man on earth. > 5) im the luckiest man on earth hahahhaha I HEARD THAT ALL HONDAS ARE INTERFERENCE ENGINES. HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT THE 87 ISNT? > 86-89 accord usually DON'T bend valves when the belt breaks. If you had > done this in an 88 prelude Si, you'd be the luckiest man on earth. > > > 5) im the luckiest man on earth hahahhaha Gates.com says most Honda models from the 1970s to 2001 have interference engines, but not all. (It doesn't have info on 2002 to the present engines.) NOT interference, according to Gates: Civic 2001 Passport 1994-2001 http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=981&location_id=540&go=preset663Gates (open the pdf file listed near the bottom) So I don't know if the statement below about the 1988 Prelude is correct. Gates mentions Si versions of the Civic but not the Prelude, so maybe Gates is incomplete. But nor can I tell if there are some interference engines whose valve design and timing are such that, even though it's interference, the damage is less likely. > I HEARD THAT ALL HONDAS ARE INTERFERENCE ENGINES. HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT THE > 87 ISNT? > > 86-89 accord usually DON'T bend valves when the belt breaks. If you had > > done this in an 88 prelude Si, you'd be the luckiest man on earth. > > > > > 5) im the luckiest man on earth hahahhaha > But nor can I tell if there are some interference engines whose valve > design and timing are such that, even though it's interference, the > damage is less likely. It would depend on where the cam stopped rotating. If it stopped in a position such that the valves were only half-way open then one might escape valve damage. Eric > Caroline wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > position such that the valves were only half-way open then one might escape > valve damage. This is true of any interference engine, no? Damage is never guaranteed when a TB on an interference engine breaks; it depends on where the timing is when the belt breaks, engine RPM at the time of breakage, etc. I'm wondering whether there are certain designs of interference engines that, I dunno, have a different valve angle or some other design feature that reduce the likelihood of damage when the TB breaks. > Gates.com says most Honda models from the 1970s to 2001 have interference > engines, but not all. (It doesn't have info on 2002 to the present [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=981&location_id=540&go=preset663Gates > (open the pdf file listed near the bottom) Gates can be wrong. It lists my 85 Volvo 765T (2.3L B230FT) as interference, when it definitely isn't (even if fitted with an aftermarket cam). Mike |
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