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Car Forum / Honda Cars / February 2005SM4's windows' motor's relay* is unnecessary, wastes current, & can drain battery
Windows' motors can receive current directly from battery & be usable all the time ( instead of only when ignition is switched on ), if user removes *, then uses a U shape nail or a bent paper clip to connect the 2 slots nearest to battery. * ( made by Mitsuba ) input pins have a resistance of 105ohm, in use will waste 14? v ? 105ohm = 0.138 amp, & produce 2 watt of heat ( both battery & aircon's wires will get this heat ). Worse still, * enables any voltage leaking from starter switch ( mine leaks 50-75 mV, although fitted as new only in 10-03, or just 9200 km earlier, part # 35130-SM4-305 ) to pass *, & drain battery : my 35Ah low- maintenance battery's charge was noticeably higher, after * was removed. If engine has low resistance cables & clean rotor arm's top, you'll feel a 1 -2% extra torque ( caused by bigger sparks & faster combustion ) after * is removed, aircon & battery will be cooler too. Idling rpm can then be reduced ; torque @ low (600) rpm ( when alternator's ampere output is low ) will be noticeably higher. Engine will be easier to start, even in 30? let alone 0?C air. > Windows' motors can receive current directly from battery & be usable > all the time ( instead of only when ignition is switched on ), if user [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > ) will be noticeably higher. > Engine will be easier to start, even in 30? let alone 0?C air. 138/1000 of an amp will give me 2% extra torque? You're an idiot. | 138/1000 of an amp will give me 2% extra torque? U twit, 1-2% is not a minimum 2%. The extra ampere ignition will get is 0.138 A + a decrease in battery's self*discharge, from the ( 2watt ) reduction of heat received by battery. * depends on the type & size of battery & how well battery is insulated / cooled. After leakage is stopped, my battery's charge rose, then sparks grew even bigger, extra torque @600rpm grew to 5%. My cables have just 2ohm resistance, plug gaps are 3mm, original cables & gaps can produce only smaller increases. | You're an idiot. Then why have u not filtered me off your screen, & why read my post ? You're a lying honda salesman, will slur any1 who exposes honda's design flaws. Other salesmen here keep quiet this time ; this is 1 flaw u & they can't deny. This thread is to help SM4 owners start their engines, salesmen can curse all u & they want. >| 138/1000 of an amp will give me 2% extra torque? > U twit, 1-2% is not a minimum 2%. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > resistance, plug gaps are 3mm, original cables & gaps can produce only > smaller increases. This does not make sense. Removing 138 ma of load when the engine is off would be a big improvement, since that much drain would kill the battery in a few days. But that drain when the engine is on is insignificant. The state of charge of the battery won't be affected at all by current draws under a few amps when the engine is on, and not significantly affected by current drain at all as long as the alternator capacity is not exceeded. The cars headlights/taillights consume a hundred times that much current, and the battery likes it just fine. The battery temperature is unaffected because the voltage is regulated - reducing current draw by 1 amp simply reduces alternator output by 1 amp. When you turn your lights on, you shouldn't experience a noticeable change in engine power. (You may hear a change in idle because of the additional drag from the alternator: 50 amps is about a 1 hp loss.) That is because the engine power is not affected by variations in ignition power unless something is very wrong with the ignition. Racers use special ignitions because they have done modifications that demand firing under increased cylinder pressures - the stock ignition in any modern car is more than powerful enough for the stock engine. That is the third layer of "don't care" betwen a 138 ma draw and engine power: 1) 138 ma is insignificant when the engine is running; 2) current changes don't significantly affect battery voltage if the charging system is not defective; 3) engine power is not significantly affected by ignition power unless the ignition is defective. If you are experiencing a reduction in engine power when you connect the window motor relay, you either have a heavy short in the relay circuit or have serious defects in both your charging system and ignition system. Mike > If you are experiencing a reduction in engine power when you connect the > window motor relay, you either have a heavy short in the relay circuit or > have serious defects in both your charging system and ignition system. Hey Mike - I think the suggestion is that both Ohm's and Kirchhoff's laws were repealed. :) If the car radio is turned off, my spark will be hotter?? Maybe if I turn my lights off in the house, my PC will run faster??? I was lurking the same thread and it didn't make much sense to me either -- it sounded like trolling to me. Remco | the stock ignition in any modern car is more than | powerful enough for the stock engine. Bullshit, F20A's small coil inside distributor is adequate @ up to just 3000rpm unless low resistance cables replace the original Sumitomo cables, if not @3000+ rpm sparks will be too small to ignite fuel fast enough for complete combustion before piston reaches BDC, this is why exhaust noise would rise fast @>3000rpm. http://circletrack.com/tipstricks/139_0312_engines_power/index3.html CRV's non vtec engine & Mitsubishi 4G15P both have this same limit. Manufacturers know 99.9% buyers will not test drive new cars on high ways. | engine power is not | significantly affected by ignition power unless the ignition is defective. 100% bullshit ; the fewer amps are received by spark plugs, [i] the smaller are sparks [ii] the slower is ignition & combustion [iii] the louder is exhaust noise [iv] the lower is torque. | you either have a heavy short in the relay circuit 105ohm, what short ? | or have serious defects in both your charging system and ignition system. U want to [i] bluff that no design flaw exists, only defects exist [ii] sell more parts. My F20A can idle @550rpm, no rise in exhaust noise @ even 3200rpm, better than new, no "defect" can possibly exist. You're another honda salesman. >| the stock ignition in any modern car is more than > | powerful enough for the stock engine. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Manufacturers know 99.9% buyers will not test drive new cars on high > ways. Your central premise is based on the fiction that more powerful sparks produce more engine power. The concept of hotter sparks igniting the fuel "faster" makes no sense at all - in stock ignition systems more recent than the model T there is one spark, and it is timed to provide proper operation. You can buy multi-spark ignition systems that make the same sort of claims you do, but you notice they are not mainstream. The stock systems work fine for street use. They fire when they are supposed to, and they do it reliably. Even an occasional misfire will set the MIL light, so plenty of ignition power is designed into all modern cars - far more than in the cars of my youth. Suggesting a miniscule reduction in electrical load will materially affect the engine power through increasing ignition power is just plain odd. However, if you haven't learned that yet I doubt you will learn anything from me. Mike > 100% bullshit ; the fewer amps are received by spark plugs, [i] the smaller > are sparks [ii] the slower is ignition & combustion [iii] the louder is > exhaust noise [iv] the lower is torque. Fewer amps received by spark plugs? For one, the current through the relay is 130 some mA. The battery has one fat lead going to the fuse box - let's assume that this is 0.2 ohms.(it is short, pretty fat and of course you do have ground resistance somewhere, so that's probably about right). I took you for a troll -- Now I see you are just confused and want to be right, in spite of natural laws we all agree exist: There are several legs from the fuse box to various parts of the car. One of these legs might have 130 mA more going through it than normal, according to you. Electically, draw a supply (battery), a series resistance (common wire) going to a parallel resistor circuit (the electrical systems of the car, all fused separately). . How can that significantly affect the current through the circuit that makes the spark since that is on a separate leg? It is not like that current now is allowed to go to the other leg - that is not how it works (see Kirchhoff laws). The only way it affects the voltage and thus the current on the other leg is because the common leg has less current on it and thus less drop across it (Ohms law) So that 130 mA contributes to the drop across that common wire by (0.130 * 0.2 = ) 26 mV!! 0.026 over 14.5 volt represents maybe 0.2 percent possible increase in voltage on that common point in the fuse box. Even rounding these numbers up makes them still insignificant. Since spark is generated by a coil and the voltage on the output of the coil is in direct proportion to what is on the input you can at best only expect 0.2 higher voltage across your sparkgap -- and this is assuming a 100% efficient lossless coil and lossless ignitor, 0 mS rise/fall times, voltage/spark 'hotness' is linear, etc, etc. None of these conditions are true in real life but even assming they are, that is a fart in a wind storm!! No way that translates into the power gain you claim. Turning my radio off or not blinking my turn signals buy me tremendous power gains (they draw a lot more that 130 some mA) and they don't, do they? (rheatoric, by the way -- answering that will make you not look too bright) Calling people stupid because they don't agree with you does not change the laws of physics. Anyone with a US high school physics background can see you are mistaken. If you keep on replying with this theory you will be treated like a troll. If you do persist, let us know when you get that pesky cold fusion problem licked. Just to be a difficult SOB that I am. <G> and throw a monkey into the wrench, I have heard of some performance enthusiasts that switch off the alternator from the battery. The theory is , if I recall ( doubtful at times at my age) that the mechanical load that the alternator puts on the engine is significantly lessened if it isn;t producing electricity; conservation of energy and all that jazz. So during a race, the overall voltageon the system would decrease slightly, maybe a volt or two, which, accoding to the original posters viewpoint. should easily impact performance in a negative way, but alas, it doesn't. Anyways, Carry on! Cheers Dan > > 100% bullshit ; the fewer amps are received by spark plugs, [i] the > smaller [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > you do persist, let us know when you get that pesky cold fusion problem > licked. > Just to be a difficult SOB that I am. <G> and throw a monkey into the > wrench, I have heard of some performance enthusiasts that switch off the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > maybe a volt or two, which, accoding to the original posters viewpoint. > should easily impact performance in a negative way, but alas, it doesn't. Heard similar things and can see how that could theoretically help, at least initially during a race. As long as the race is not too long, everything should be cool and the gang. My racing days are limited to trying to make it to work on time and kinda like my car starting when I am done for the day, so I'll leave it to you to try. Bring jumper cables so you can get back to your keyboard and report back :) Good point on how dropping the voltage doesn't seem to affect the performance - I guess that's just another wrench in the monkey <g> > Just to be a difficult SOB that I am. <G> and throw a monkey into the > wrench, I have heard of some performance enthusiasts that switch off the [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Cheers > Dan Now, that makes sense! Even a 30 amp load at 14V is 420W, more than half a horsepower. Factor in the losses and the small reasons not to, and it is a reasonable thing to do for a race. Of course, a 140 ma load from the window relay is right at 2W, or about 1/370 of a horsepower. Mike >>| 138/1000 of an amp will give me 2% extra torque? >> U twit, 1-2% is not a minimum 2%. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >would be a big improvement, since that much drain would kill the battery in >a few days. But that drain when the engine is on is insignificant. Google Cheah pet's previous posts in this group. He has stated that Hondas are defective because they have electric clocks which draw current. A real looney. > Google Cheah pet's previous posts in this group. He has stated that > Hondas are defective because they have electric clocks which draw > current. A real looney. I remember that thread. I believe one of the claims that time was that because of that "defect" a Honda could not possibly cruise down the highway at 60 mph. I say TE Cheah is a troll. |
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