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Car Forum / Honda Cars / September 2005Black Box
Does anyone have any insight on if the new Honda's have any black boxes (EDR - event data recorders) in them ? Specially the new Odyssey's. Ref - http://www.forbes.com/columnists/forbes/2003/0811/084.html TIA !! > Does anyone have any insight on if the new Honda's have any black boxes > (EDR - event data recorders) in them ? Specially the new Odyssey's. > Ref - http://www.forbes.com/columnists/forbes/2003/0811/084.html > > TIA !! all modern fuel injected cars have them. what question do you want answered? jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:oYidnS8k_OLrB7reRVn- qw@speakeasy.net: >> Does anyone have any insight on if the new Honda's have any black boxes >> (EDR - event data recorders) in them ? Specially the new Odyssey's. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > all modern fuel injected cars have them. what question do you want > answered? Actually, it's a fairly modern thing, and quite separate from the ECM that all EFI cars have. This particular black box keeps track of things like: Maximum speeds the car's operated at; Maximum RPM the engine was operated at; Maximum g-loading in corners or upon impact, and the direction of that loading; Whether seat belts are being worn; Etc. The tattle-boxes can do this in real-time, too. Much of the impetus for these things is liability legislation, which exposes manufacturers to considerable risk of huge punitive awards. It also comes in handy for warranty claims, too. If you blow your engine because you missed a shift into 5th at 84 mph, the black box will record the rpm as 9,500 at the moment of destruction, and your warranty claim will be denied on account of abuse. Absent the black box, they would have no way of knowing for sure how fast the motor was turning, and would probably have honored the claim. This last anecdote actually happened to very recently to Toyota, with an owner's new Celica. http://tinyurl.com/d2fpf Look at David's very first message on Aug12, then scroll down to the first message from Philip on Aug13. Frankly, I don't like the data recorders either. But there's really nobody to blame for them except the goverment and legal activists.  SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ I thought this device is installed on all makes and models in North America today. I am pretty upset about this device in my car also. > Does anyone have any insight on if the new Honda's have any black boxes > (EDR - event data recorders) in them ? Specially the new Odyssey's. > Ref - http://www.forbes.com/columnists/forbes/2003/0811/084.html > > TIA !! >I thought this device is installed on all makes and models in North America > today. > > I am pretty upset about this device in my car also. Why would the presence of this unit be upsetting to you? If you are involved in a collision, it has the power to remove all doubt about what your vehicle was doing prior to the collision. An onboard witness that can't be bought is a good thing. Brian I am undecided its good or bad. First off, I want to know if the car has on it. Second, where it is and what interface does it have etc ? What data does it store day ti day ? If all EDRs are good, why don't they advertise it as one more thing your call has. For now, I want to conclude via some website my car has it or not... All American cars do but not sure about all imports ? >>I thought this device is installed on all makes and models in North >>America [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Brian >I am undecided its good or bad. First off, I want to know if the car has on >it. Second, where it is and what interface does it have etc ? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > For now, I want to conclude via some website my car has it or not... All > American cars do but not sure about all imports ? My understanding is that it does not store data beyond a sliding window of several seconds. The data is kept in a circular buffer (it continuously overwrites the oldest data) which stops updating a moment after air bag deployment. They are the result of claims regarding wrongful deployment of air bags, and I believe they are usually integral with the air bag controller. The interface is proprietary. False air bag deployment is so dangerous that it needed to be documented whether the conditions warranted deployment, or if not, what could have caused the bag to deploy. Since air bags are mandatory, I think it's safe to assume every car made today and in recent years has one. Mike >>I thought this device is installed on all makes and models in North America >> today. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >was doing prior to the collision. An onboard witness that can't be bought is >a good thing. As long as the data in it is 100% accurate. There is a culture in most western nations to believe implicitly 'technological data' recorded in consumer machines. Everything from data recorders, to the number logs on fax machines (for instance, obviously the 'from' number can be easy to falsify, but the 'to' can be harder' >Brian > As long as the data in it is 100% accurate. There is a culture in most > western nations to believe implicitly 'technological data' recorded in > consumer machines. Everything from data recorders, to the number logs > on fax machines (for instance, obviously the 'from' number can be easy > to falsify, but the 'to' can be harder' I drive tractor trailer for a living. Our trucks have company installed onboard recorders. They record every thing the truck does through the run, engine speed, road speed, distance travelled, overspeed of the engine the time of day that every happens, the number of stops and where we stopped and for how long. While some people say this is an infringement on their personal privacy, I look at it as being the same as driving with the boss or a police officer in the cab with me. If they were there, they would see the same things, but not as accurately as the computer recorder does and if a person calls the company and says that I was speeding along a stretch of road at a certain time, it can verify that it was or wasn't me. The same thing applies if the truck was involved in a collision. Brian >> As long as the data in it is 100% accurate. There is a culture in most >> western nations to believe implicitly 'technological data' recorded in [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >road at a certain time, it can verify that it was or wasn't me. The same >thing applies if the truck was involved in a collision. Yeah, such tachographs are required by law in much of europe, and in the UK, a police officer can equest to see your tachographs for the previous (I think don't know) 24 hours >Brian > Yeah, such tachographs are required by law in much of europe, and in > the UK, a police officer can equest to see your tachographs for the > previous (I think don't know) 24 hours We used to use tachographs here too. These are easier to use and harder to fool, the tachographs could be fooled by inserting the graph paper in backwards or putting a slight bend in the writing tip. The computer can't be read at the side of the road, it has to be downloaded at our Distribution Centre. Brian >>I thought this device is installed on all makes and models in North >>America [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Brian Because it's more likely to be used against you than to aid you. The laws regarding access to the data are not well-established yet.either. (privacy issues) SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net > >>I thought this device is installed on all makes and models in North > >>America [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > The laws regarding access to the data are not well-established yet.either. > (privacy issues) I tend to agree with Jim much of time, but on this I agree with Brian. I drive a school bus with a tach, and I frive right. If there's ever a question as to whether I was speeding (or even driving) at given time, I'm covered. I fail to see how a black box could be used to your disadvantage if you drive within legal limits. Of course, if you routinely break the law, you have three potential problems: Cops, the blackbox, and an accident. (Incidentally, my training says for every 300 violations, there are 29 accidents, and 1 fatality.) > Because it's more likely to be used against you than to aid you. > The laws regarding access to the data are not well-established yet.either. > (privacy issues) It would be difficult to use it against you, if you were operating your vehicle within the laws of the road and with due care for the weather and traffic conditions. Brian >> Because it's more likely to be used against you than to aid you. >> The laws regarding access to the data are not well-established [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Brian I speed;so what? I do it where it's prudent,and police and politicians speed,too,A lot faster than I do. Politicians alone have harmed more people driving than I have. I believe we do not need more "Big Brother" monitoring devices. IMO,police could(and should) toss out their radar and laser guns,and concentrate on violations that really make a difference in driving safety,like RLrunning,reckless driving,improper lane changes,KRETP and STKR. But they "enforce" where the easy money is,and where it has little effect on traffic safety. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net > I speed;so what? I do it where it's prudent,and police and politicians > speed,too,A lot faster than I do. Politicians alone have harmed more [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > But they "enforce" where the easy money is,and where it has little effect > on traffic safety. Okay, what ever you think. > I speed;so what? I do it where it's prudent,and police and politicians > speed,too,A lot faster than I do. Politicians alone have harmed more > people > driving than I have. If you speed, you have no legitimate beef with monitoring devices. They simply hold you accountable for what you do. Personally, I stopped speeding decades ago. I did some simple calculations and decided it was a fool's game. Since then, I have only sped on one occasion. On a pair of 12 hour legs of a long trip we fudged the speed limit by 3-5 mph. It made about a half hour difference when we needed it most. Stretching that to 10 mph would have exposed us to more liability than the time gain would have justified - we were already going to arrive before sundown. Mike > If you speed, you have no legitimate beef with monitoring devices. They > simply hold you accountable for what you do. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > than the time gain would have justified - we were already going to arrive > before sundown. Speeding doesn't save enough time to justify doing it, compared to the losses that it may force a person to endure for the rest of their life. Brian >> I speed;so what? I do it where it's prudent,and police and >> politicians speed,too,A lot faster than I do. Politicians alone have [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > If you speed, you have no legitimate beef with monitoring devices. > They simply hold you accountable for what you do. They do nothing for SAFETY. In fact,they make it worse. All they are good for is raising revenue for the states and police departments,and even increasing employment in some PDs.(Ohio for one.) > Personally, I stopped speeding decades ago. I did some simple > calculations and decided it was a fool's game. Since then, I have only [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Mike If it were not for speeding,we still would have the 55MPH NMSL. People voted with their right feet. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net > They do nothing for SAFETY. In fact,they make it worse. > All they are good for is raising revenue for the states and police > departments,and even increasing employment in some PDs.(Ohio for one.) That's a crock. > If it were not for speeding,we still would have the 55MPH NMSL. > People voted with their right feet. To have the right to kill and maim law abiding citizens. > If it were not for speeding,we still would have the 55MPH NMSL. > People voted with their right feet. <begin rant> Getting way more OT here - the "double nickle" succumbed to pressure from the states, sparked by the short-lived and controversial governor of Arizona, Evan Mecham. Ev was widely portrayed as incompetent, even racist, by the Arizona Republic and other Arizona power brokers but he held his ground on the federal extortion that withheld federal highway funds from states that failed to enforce the federal mandate. Within weeks other governors joined in and Washington saw a rebellion in the works, one that would land a lot of incumbents on the street if they didn't back down. Governor Mecham was an independent who prevailed against party hacks Republican Burton Barr (shudder!) and Democrat Carolyn Warner (double shudder!) He was honest enough - more than any Arizona governor in memory except Rose Mofford - but he lacked the political savvy to defend himself against the Pulliam Press. (There was bad blood between Pulliam and Mecham, dating back to when Mecham published a competing paper.) He was reviled for overturning the outgoing governor's declaration of MLK's birthday as a legal holiday, although he pointed out the governor's office has no legitimate power to make fiscal policy. He was branded a racist by the Arizona Republic, which reported the fact that he was on a school panel that approved a textbook that mentioned young black children were once referred to as "pickaninnies" - and then so distorted their own story in followups that most Arizonans believed he had actually used the term himself. Ultimately he was impeached for violating campaign finance laws, when an irregularity was turned up that wouldn't merit a yawn from a Republican or Democrat. With both Republicans and Democrats voting on the impeachment, no independent stood a chance. (Ya gotta hand it to Arizona - the corruption is right out in the open here!) His political carcass hangs in the state capitol to warn upstarts: this is a two party system. <end rant> >> If it were not for speeding,we still would have the 55MPH NMSL. >> People voted with their right feet. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > ><end rant> Discount it all you want,but the MASSIVE disobediance of the 55 NMSL by ordinary drivers was the reason it went away. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net > Discount it all you want,but the MASSIVE disobediance of the 55 NMSL by > ordinary drivers was the reason it went away. I don't think so, because violations of the 55 mph limit were a revenue source. The more it was violated (as long as the citations were written, to collect the fines and satisfy the feds enforcement was taking place) the more the states profited and the greater the incentive to continue the program. Political pressure to repeal the limit threatened the future of too many politicians, apart from whether the law was actually obeyed. Mike >> Discount it all you want,but the MASSIVE disobediance of the 55 NMSL >> by ordinary drivers was the reason it went away. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Mike That is -where- the political pressure came from;all the people who got ticketed.It sure didn't come from all the blindly obedient drones. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net > That is -where- the political pressure came from;all the people who got > ticketed.It sure didn't come from all the blindly obedient drones. By using the term 'blindly obedient drones'. Are you referring to the drivers that prefer to keep their money in their pockets (instead of funding the annual policeman's ball) and continue to drive where they want and need to go every day of the year? Brian >>> Discount it all you want,but the MASSIVE disobediance of the 55 NMSL >>> by ordinary drivers was the reason it went away. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > That is -where- the political pressure came from;all the people who got > ticketed.It sure didn't come from all the blindly obedient drones. Disobedience and disapproval are not synonymous; I disagree with our tax structure but I pay my taxes. I was a "blindly obedient drone" because I didn't speed, and nobody asked me my opinion. But you can bet the speeders who were ticketed only "fed the beast" by making it economically attractive to retain the limit. You suggest by the term "all" that the majority obeyed the limit, but that undercuts your premise. Effective political pressure requires a clear majority (otherwise re-election would not be an issue), so if obedience were the measure rather than public opinion we would still be driving 55. Mike >>>> Discount it all you want,but the MASSIVE disobediance of the 55 >>>> NMSL by ordinary drivers was the reason it went away. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > tax structure but I pay my taxes. I was a "blindly obedient drone" > because I didn't speed, and nobody asked me my opinion. And you probably did not write your representatives,either. > But you can > bet the speeders who were ticketed only "fed the beast" by making it > economically attractive to retain the limit. > > You suggest by the term "all" that the majority obeyed the limit, No,I don't;that is what you choose to read into what I wrote. By "didn't come from all the blindly obedient drones",I allowed that SOME of the drones might have expressed their opposition to the 55 NMSL by writing their reps,or through newpaper letters to the editor. Most just went along(obeyed) and kept silent,IMO.(and fumed at all the "lawbreakers" speeding around and past them.) But it IS clear that the majority of drivers DID exceed the 55 NMSL,thus the effort to cut off HWY funds to increase enforcement;if it were profitable and enforced,there would have been -no need- to cut off HWY funds. IIRC,many states statistics showed massive noncompliance. > but > that undercuts your premise. Effective political pressure requires a > clear majority Not really;just a large enough vocal group;look at homosexual groups,they certainly are not "majorities",yet manage to influence legislators in excess of their actual numbers. >(otherwise re-election would not be an issue), so if > obedience were the measure rather than public opinion we would still > be driving 55. > > Mike > SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net > > Because it's more likely to be used against you than to aid you. > > The laws regarding access to the data are not well-established [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > vehicle within the laws of the road and with due care for the weather and > traffic conditions. I have no problems with it for commercial drivers. You are doing a job and these are essentially business records which reduce the liability of the business. However, for personal transportation use, I believe that this type of monitoring (or more importantly in the long run how the data is used) is unreasonable. Yes, I drive an older car from before OBD3 which, if I remember correctly, was the first to have the flight data recorder functionality and I'll also keep my car running for as long as possible. Eric Guys - I started this dialog to see if anyone was aware of any website that would tell you if the car had a black box. I don't want a box in my car and I don't care to debate it here and justify. Same reason I don't want the grocery store keeping a log of what I buy or the cable company what I watch. Why do we need all this info unless we were being paid for it. Do your own searches, black box have caused a lot of heart burn for people in wrecks. So if anyone has any more info please post it ;-) >> > Because it's more likely to be used against you than to aid you. >> > The laws regarding access to the data are not well-established [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Eric > Guys - I started this dialog to see if anyone was aware of any website that > would tell you if the car had a black box. I don't want a box in my car and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > So if anyone has any more info please post it ;-) the only way is to go for an old car with obdc0 or carburetion. most everything else keeps a record of anywhere between the last few seconds to some minutes of data. go to a nerd site like slashdot.org and search for some [informative] techy threads on this. >>>>Because it's more likely to be used against you than to aid you. >>>>The laws regarding access to the data are not well-established [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> >>Eric > Guys - I started this dialog to see if anyone was aware of any website > that would tell you if the car had a black box. I don't want a box in my [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > So if anyone has any more info please post it ;-) If I remember correctly, it's anything '96 and newer however you may need to check individual makes and models. Eric How? I looked on the Honda ownerlink website and couldn't find anything. SignatureBob Burns Mill Hall PA (email is spamtrap) >> Guys - I started this dialog to see if anyone was aware of any website >> that would tell you if the car had a black box. I don't want a box in my [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Eric Your so right. |
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