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Car Forum / Honda Cars / October 2005Indy Rice League??? ;)
After today's race, Chevrolet dropped out as a supplier of engines to the Indy Racing League (IRL) Interesting. Although previous Indianapolis 500's have had their share of British engines as well as American iron, the 2006 Indy 500 will most likely be a fight between the best from Honda and Toyota. There may be a stray entry of an older car with a Chevy, but IRL is now All Japanese when it comes to engines! > After today's race, Chevrolet dropped out as a supplier of engines to the > Indy Racing League (IRL) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > stray entry of an older car with a Chevy, but IRL is now All Japanese when > it comes to engines! do you find it ironic? >> After today's race, Chevrolet dropped out as a supplier of engines to the >> Indy Racing League (IRL) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > do you find it ironic? Not really. The Japanese have been creeping into the world racing scenes, and their engines have been getting better and better. I am curious as to why Cevy dropped the ball, though. > >> After today's race, Chevrolet dropped out as a supplier of engines to the > >> Indy Racing League (IRL) [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > and their engines have been getting better and better. I am curious as to > why Cevy dropped the ball, though. Still, it seems an odd digression from a quest for more economical engines, doesn't it? As the public becomes sensitised to squandering our grandchildren's energy supplies, will corporations benefit by being associated with the waste? Brent >> >> After today's race, Chevrolet dropped out as a supplier of engines to >> >> the [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Brent I don't see a "digression" at all, in the sense that I think you intend. Seems to me that pushing the technology to its limits has direct benefits to building more efficient and cleaner burning, reliable engines. Does anyone come close to Honda in this regard? Leonard >>>>>After today's race, Chevrolet dropped out as a supplier of engines to >>>>>the [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Leonard yes, toyota. both honda & toyotoa are neck & neck - have been for some time. >>>>After today's race, Chevrolet dropped out as a supplier of engines to the >>>>Indy Racing League (IRL) [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Still, it seems an odd digression from a quest for more economical > engines, doesn't it? paradoxically, it's not. to get every watt out of a racing engine, you have to design to get that energy out of the fuel. in terms of energy output per liter burned, F1 engines are some of the most efficient in the world. and it's no coincidence that F1 racing is also fuel limited. that technology is directly usable in the world of domestic economy engine design. whether detroit /chooses/ to use it is another matter entirely. look at the specific output [watts per liter] of honda & toyota engines and compare them with detroit hunkojunks. > As the public becomes sensitised to squandering > our grandchildren's energy supplies, will corporations benefit by being > associated with the waste? > > Brent >>>>>After today's race, Chevrolet dropped out as a supplier of engines to the >>>>>Indy Racing League (IRL) [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >> >> Brent Interesting you call yourself "Jim Beam"! See my other responses to the OP. Did YOU know these cars run on Methanol? (Most people don't...) About 14 years ago I was listening to Deborah Norville's radio program where she had a folk singer who was going to protest the Indy 500 for that year because he wanted to point out what a waste of gasoline it was. Oh BOY! I jumped right on the phone and called in, and told them that the cars run on Methanol, and if ANYTHING he should be PRAISING the engine builders and engineers for being able to squeeze 600+ HP out of an engine running a Renewable Resource... They didn't have much to talk about after that! ;P > >>>>After today's race, Chevrolet dropped out as a supplier of engines to the > >>>>Indy Racing League (IRL) [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > entirely. look at the specific output [watts per liter] of honda & > toyota engines and compare them with detroit hunkojunks. Jim, that's a cogent and articulate reply. Thank you. Brent >> >> After today's race, Chevrolet dropped out as a supplier of engines to the >> >> Indy Racing League (IRL) [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Brent Hmmmm....interesting take on the problem. Except, you DO know these engines run on Methanol, right? And that methanol is made from Corn (methanol is actually a form of grain alchohol, or "White Lightening" or "Moonshine") If anything, the means to ectract 700+ HP from an engine running Grain Alchohol should be commended. Add to that the fact they've been doing it for almost 20 years now, and the real question SHOULD be, why aren't we developing this technology for street cars. Now, at the current time, methanol is VERY expensive, mush more than gasoline. IIRC, the current price for methanol racing fuel is about $6 per gallon, but this is a purely refined form. If the technology came into use more, there is no reason why the car you're driving couldn't un on 25-30% methanol. And if the government had taken note, instead of playing ball with the fuel companies for the last 20 years, there would have been plenty of oil if there had been more widespread ethanol replacement. I have been running a 10% mixture of gasoline and ethanol in one of my cars for almost 20 years now (I seek the stuff out!) and it still seems to be running just fine. Now the IRL has announced it will be running an Ethanol/Methanol mix beginning for the year 2006. ALL CART/Champ Cars/IRL cars have been running on Methanol since 1979 or 1980. Actually, I'm wrong. From the IRL page: "Methanol has been the fuel of choice in cars running in the Indianapolis 500 since 1965. A fatal accident involving drivers Eddie Sachs and Dave MacDonald on the second lap of the 1964 Indianapolis 500 prompted the switch." http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/activitybook/fs-alcohol.html http://www.mocorn.org/news/2005/News%20Release3-03-05.htm http://www.g-forse.com/archive/news356_e.html > And that methanol is made from Corn (methanol is actually a > form of grain alchohol, or "White Lightening" or "Moonshine") Uhm, no. Methanol ("wood alcohol") is the simplest alcohol, ethanol ("grain alcohol") is the second simplest. They are distinct substances, and methanol is quite toxic. Don't be giving people ideas that they should drink methanol to get drunk... they'll loose their eyesight or worse. (Probably more than you wanted to know at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol) >> And that methanol is made from Corn (methanol is actually a >> form of grain alchohol, or "White Lightening" or "Moonshine") [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > is quite toxic. Don't be giving people ideas that they should drink methanol > to get drunk... they'll loose their eyesight or worse. Yeah, I realized that after I posted it! But after a few bouts withj Everclear, I'll try anything once! > (Probably more than you wanted to know at > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol) The problem most people seem to miss, and i too have no actual figures for, is in the production of methanol (instead of gasoline) are the power consumptions greater than fuel. Same with hydrogen cells or electric cars - the power to charge the batteries comes from power stations, the power to heat/cool/pump chemical reactions round a refinery all add up and have to be produced by a non-renewable resource until we get enough wind/tidal power to replace all power stations. J > >> >> After today's race, Chevrolet dropped out as a supplier of engines to > >> >> the [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > http://www.g-forse.com/archive/news356_e.html Thank you. No, I didn't know about the methanol. I don't follow racing. I'm pleased to learn that the fuel is from a renewable resource. I was born completely ignorant, and I'm still playing catch-up. :-) Brent >> >> >> After today's race, Chevrolet dropped out as a supplier of engines to >> >> >> the [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > > Brent Gee, I think I was too...I can't remember back that far! Yes, it is a renewable resource, and I wish they would take what they have learned and apply it to our street cars! But the oil companies are powerful, and you'd THINK they would be at the leading edge of research (actually, they probably ARE but are milking the Dino sources for all they are worth!) and set themselves up as the 'saviours' with the new renewable energy! "You saw it here first!" Surprising they aren't... >>>>>>>After today's race, Chevrolet dropped out as a supplier of engines to >>>>>>>the [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > Yes, it is a renewable resource, and I wish they would take what they have > learned and apply it to our street cars! i wouldn't be too happy if they did. lower calorific value of enthanol/methanol means lower output and lower mpg's. unadulterated gasoline is the way to go. cheaper too. > But the oil companies are powerful, and you'd THINK they would be at the > leading edge of research (actually, they probably ARE but are milking the > Dino sources for all they are worth!) and set themselves up as the > 'saviours' with the new renewable energy! "You saw it here first!" > > Surprising they aren't... >>>>>>>>After today's race, Chevrolet dropped out as a supplier of engines to >>>>>>>>the [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > enthanol/methanol means lower output and lower mpg's. unadulterated > gasoline is the way to go. cheaper too. I dunno...those guys are able to squeeze 700 HP out of a 10 cylinder engine running the stuff... I think a couple hundred HP shouldn't be too hard. The only problem with ethanol? Think of the demands put on the growers of corn, wheat and soybeans, the major sources of ethanol. There have been some BAD years for growers, and if we were completely dependant on ethanol, that could be a problem. Some years there would be less corn on the table because we'd be putting all of it in our tanks. But, then again, perhaps we could end the subsidies where we pay growers NOT to grow crops! And I don't think the farmers would be having all the tough times they have now, because ALL their output would be in demand instead of overproduction. Any crop thet can produce ethanol would probably not go to waste in silos (probably be a GOOD thing, storing it for a year!) If they can get the engines to run with a 20-40% ethanol mix, and get the production of ethanol to where it doesn't take MORE energy to produce than you get, then I see a win-win situation here. >> But the oil companies are powerful, and you'd THINK they would be at the >> leading edge of research (actually, they probably ARE but are milking the >> Dino sources for all they are worth!) and set themselves up as the >> 'saviours' with the new renewable energy! "You saw it here first!" >> >> Surprising they aren't... > >>>>>>>After today's race, Chevrolet dropped out as a supplier of engines to > >>>>>>>the [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] > enthanol/methanol means lower output and lower mpg's. unadulterated > gasoline is the way to go. cheaper too. I guess it comes down to miles per gallon-of-what. We postponed breeding new dinosaurs, so eventually we'll be stuck with energy from non-petro sources. I bet you're right about lower mpg's; but if it comes down to a choice between 30 mpg on a fuel we've exhausted or 10 mpg on distilled dandelions, we'll have to go with the dandelions... ... in which case Scott's will come out with a lawn product that gets rid of all that ugly grass among the dandelions. :-) Brent >> >>>>>>>After today's race, Chevrolet dropped out as a supplier of engines to >> >>>>>>>the [quoted text clipped - 88 lines] > > Brent Well, the other thing is that burning ethanol is a bit cleaner than the petro fuels, so you'd think the Earthy Crunchies would be rallying for it! Instead we go for Hydrogen, which is just as difficult to produce, is a LOT more dangerous and right now requires MAJOR engine redesigns! I'll take the dandelions...they make good wine, too! > Gee, I think I was too...I can't remember back that far! > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Surprising they aren't... I was in the petro research business for 26 years. Company purchased a fleet of electric cars in ~1980 and one was mine (and what a POS). We had solar powered gas stations, had a system for making ethanol from oil with high rates of conversion and we had an automobile test facility with a wind tunnel (and no, no secret carburetor). The dirty secret to energy is that the oil co's sell what customers want to buy. Selling gasoline is better than dealing drugs; market is bigger and it's legal. The plan was in '75 to move drivers out of their Eldorados with 472 ci motors into Vegas and Pintos (to help Ford and GM increase their market. Imagine us being in cahoots with Ford and GM ). Those pesky drivers purchased Hondas and Toyotas instead! Many of our customers told us the Government should make big cars illegal and manged to convince their legislators to adopt a 55mph limit. That wasn't good for Big Oil. The SUV's were a Godsend for the refining dept. We could't make money in the early 90's from the refining operations. The Explorer changed all that. As long as an F350 dually with a huge engine is considerd a high-status grocery-getter, we are all doomed. I wish Honda sold a Civic with a 200 hp tdi diesel in the USA. Fast around town and great mpg on the road (plus being a Honda). 2 things an individual can do to make the world a better place: Live close to your job and don't drive an RV on vacation. >> Gee, I think I was too...I can't remember back that far! >> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > road (plus being a Honda). 2 things an individual can do to make the world > a better place: Live close to your job and don't drive an RV on vacation. Unfortunately, most of my jobs have been at least 20 miles away, and a long time I was driving over 50 one way! Wife didn't want to move, see? But then I buy cars I like, and like to drive, so it's a 50/50 deal. But with the price of gas now... But, what's the deal with Gasoline? I would buy ethanol if it were available. And I appreciate the info on the conversion! We're told by the media it takes more energy to make ethanol, which returns less energy back! So, this is bunk, eh? And, we started buying Toyotas before the Energy Crisis; my Mom wante a small car similar to her Chevy II Nova (THERE was a car, GM should have never stopped making them!) That was it for us; we have pretty much been a Toyota family ever since! But I digress...and i also agree with your Grocery Getter comment; some people NEED a big truck, while others could get by with a Tacoma; it's the Image thing. And I hope the popularity of the SUV comes to and end in short order...these things SUCK! Buy a Station Wagon! (Subaru makes a bunch of AWD models if you don't like the Matrix! ;) >> >> After today's race, Chevrolet dropped out as a supplier of engines to the >> >> Indy Racing League (IRL) [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Brent Here's an even better article. Seems I was a little wrong here. Methanol isn't grain alchohol, it is WOOD grain alchohol. And just think: if they used rice to make ethamol (Sake??) It really WOULD be a "Ricing" league... http://www.methanol.org/altfuel/press/pr970521.html >After today's race, Chevrolet dropped out as a supplier of engines to the >Indy Racing League (IRL) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >stray entry of an older car with a Chevy, but IRL is now All Japanese when >it comes to engines! Call me old fashioned, but I much prefer the close racing of the new A1 series. 3rd ever meting (races 5 and 6) are this weekend, i think - www.a1gp.com The american and Japaneese teams haven't done so well, britain and canada did well as did New Zeland. Oh and its a british made engine. >>After today's race, Chevrolet dropped out as a supplier of engines to the >>Indy Racing League (IRL) [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > The american and Japaneese teams haven't done so well, britain and > canada did well as did New Zeland. Oh and its a british made engine. Actually, so was the Chevy! It was assembled and 'tweaked' in England. >>After today's race, Chevrolet dropped out as a supplier of engines to the >>Indy Racing League (IRL) [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > The american and Japaneese teams haven't done so well, britain and > canada did well as did New Zeland. Oh and its a british made engine. Hmmmm....sort of a WorldWide IRL. Looks like the spirit of the IRL; the cars are all basically the same and have similar engines (if not the SAME engine!) So what happens is, it doesn't come down to how much MONEY you throw at it, but the skill of the driver. i like that! When Penske was kicking butt in the CART series, as in F1, it was how much MONEY you had that determined who own the race. When IRL came along I was initially against it, but it leveled tha playing field and brought the competition back to the cockpit rather than the garage itself. This is the first I have heard of A1. Thanks! >>>After today's race, Chevrolet dropped out as a supplier of engines to the >>>Indy Racing League (IRL) [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >cars are all basically the same and have similar engines (if not the SAME >engine!) Yes, they're all the same engine. The cars are all made by raynard to the prince's spec, and he bought all 50 for the teams (2 per team, 25 country-teams). Cars designed to make a big hole in the air behind, to help with overtaking, plus a push-to-pass boost button. All engines made by a company called Zytec, and lots of scrutineers around to make sure everyones the same. Everyones even running the same cooper tyres, although theere are 2 different compounds available >So what happens is, it doesn't come down to how much MONEY you throw at >it, but the skill of the driver. i like that! Driver AND pitcrew. There's a manditory pit stop to change all 4 tyres in the 'feature race' >When Penske was kicking butt in the CART series, as in F1, it was how much >MONEY you had that determined who own the race. When IRL came along I was >initially against it, but it leveled tha playing field and brought the >competition back to the cockpit rather than the garage itself. > >This is the first I have heard of A1. Thanks! no probs. For those that don't know, the race format goes like this... Theres a free practice on the friday saturday a little practice, and then 4 qualifying sessiosn. Each one is 15 minutes long, and teams are allowed an out lap, a flying lap, and a in lap in each. something like 5-10mins between each sessions. They then take the drivers best TWO times, and add them together, and base the grid for the sprint off that There is only one car for each team, so no blocking, team orders etc. Sprint race is about 18 laps, or half an hour long. Takes place about 1:30pm on the sunday. No pit stops etc. 10 for first, 9 for second and so on, down to 1 for 10th. Finishing order is then the grid for the longer feature race that takes place around 3pm. its a hour/36ish lap race, with a manditory tyre change pitstop. Standing start, F1 style. Pits are one person per wheel, and no-one to leave the garage, except the flagman, until the cars stopped. , and the cars must make a pass over the start-finish line at racing speed with both sets of tyres. Same points layout for the finish of the feature race, and therse an aditional point to whoever gets the fastest lap over the two races. Thats is basiaclly. The engines are 520hp standard, 550hp when under the 'power boost' (get 4 in the sprint, and 8 in the feature - they're limited to 30second length, and only work when you've got your throttle wide open, press the button when you're braking, and you've wasted one. Very good, close racing, and a wide range of experiance too, from former F1 driver jos Verstappen for Holland, down (i don't know if the russian and chineese drivers ever really did single-seater racing before) >>>>After today's race, Chevrolet dropped out as a supplier of engines to the >>>>Indy Racing League (IRL) [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > russian and chineese drivers ever really did single-seater racing > before) "THE Prince"? Which Prince? You DON'T mean "The Artist" I am assuming! ;) Interesting. So THAT'S where Verstappen went! Hopefully, someone will pick this up on this side of the Pond! >>>>>After today's race, Chevrolet dropped out as a supplier of engines to the >>>>>Indy Racing League (IRL) [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > >"THE Prince"? Which Prince? You DON'T mean "The Artist" I am assuming! ;) No, some shiek from Dubai. >Interesting. So THAT'S where Verstappen went! > >Hopefully, someone will pick this up on this side of the Pond! There are a few torrents of the first 2 meetings outt here, but from http://www.a1teamusa.com/ its shown on "setlanta sports channel" on direcTV, and you can register on the day of the race to watch a webcast at a1gp.com, starrts 8am EST I find it interesting that NASCAR has it's own little clique of Dodge, Chevy and Ford-and it gets all the media attention. I am assuming all the rules and regs for their cars are to mainly keep out Toyota and Honda from breaking into their little club. When I grew up, the Indy cars had all the attention. I wondered why you have to really dig to find news about Indy now. I find the cars are all Toyota and Honda. Thank you Danika Patrick for bringing some attention back to Indy. When I hear who ever won the recent NASCAR race, I think to myself, "It must have been his turn to win." > After today's race, Chevrolet dropped out as a supplier of engines to the > Indy Racing League (IRL) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > stray entry of an older car with a Chevy, but IRL is now All Japanese when > it comes to engines! Perhaps that is the reason nobody suports indy car racing any more. mike hunt >I find it interesting that NASCAR has it's own little clique of Dodge, >Chevy and Ford-and it gets all the media attention. I am assuming all the [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> when >> it comes to engines! > I find it interesting that NASCAR has it's own little clique of Dodge, Chevy > and Ford-and it gets all the media attention. I am assuming all the rules [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > bringing some attention back to Indy. When I hear who ever won the recent > NASCAR race, I think to myself, "It must have been his turn to win." Man, have you seen the Antifreeze commercial with Danic?!?! Whoooo Hooooo! >> After today's race, Chevrolet dropped out as a supplier of engines to the >> Indy Racing League (IRL) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> stray entry of an older car with a Chevy, but IRL is now All Japanese when >> it comes to engines! >I find it interesting that NASCAR has it's own little clique of Dodge, >Chevy and Ford-and it gets all the media attention. I am assuming all the >rules and regs for their cars are to mainly keep out Toyota and Honda from >breaking into their little club. NASCAR has created rules that make the cars from all the manufacturers essentially the same. Toyota is already competing in the truck series and will eventually move to the Nextel cup. It is pointless who is identified as the "manufacturer." The rules are super restrictive. There is no "technology" competition. If Toyota races cars in the Nextel Cup races, they will be essentially the same as the "Fords," "Chevrolets," and "Dodges." The major differences are the decals and the shape of the grille opening. Any series that tries to control things down to the point of specifying rear gear ratios, shock absorber designs, and spring rates can hardly be encouraging innovations. The most important thing is to get a good team. Winning and loosing depends on fine details. The biggest change in NASCAR since 1965 is aerodynamics. NASCAR is doing its best to make sure that all the cars are aerodynamically the same. Strip off the bodies and most of the parts will look just like a combination of 1965 Ford front suspension and 1965 GMC Truck rear suspension bolted to a homemade tube frame. Think of NASCAR as WWE in cars with a more corrupt body enforcing the rules. Ed |
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