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Car Forum / Honda Cars / November 2005Oil change done with wrong grade oil - damage?
Recently got an oil change in my 02 civic lx 1.7. BigO put 10w30 in it instead of 5w20. Manual says to use 5w20 or 5w30 in a bind, as long as next change is 5w20. I drove about 200 miles before I noticed. I made them switch it out for 5w20. Could this have caused any long term damage? -Nate No. Don't get too hung up on oil grades. My Ford Focus calls for 5W20, but because the oil is still difficult to find and retail outlets like to bend you over price wise for oil changes with 5W20, I use 5W30 in the winter and 10W30 with no problems for 5 years. Recently got an oil change in my 02 civic lx 1.7. BigO put 10w30 in it instead of 5w20. Manual says to use 5w20 or 5w30 in a bind, as long as next change is 5w20. I drove about 200 miles before I noticed. I made them switch it out for 5w20. Could this have caused any long term damage? -Nate > No. > Don't get too hung up on oil grades. The fact that the people who designed the engine call for it doesn't make it an important point? > My Ford Focus calls for 5W20, but because the oil is still difficult to > find > and retail outlets like to bend you over price wise for oil changes with > 5W20, I use 5W30 in the winter and 10W30 with no problems for 5 years. Difficult to find? Where are you living? 5W20 can be found pretty much any retail environment you walk into. >> My Ford Focus calls for 5W20, but because the oil is still difficult to >> find [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Difficult to find? Where are you living? 5W20 can be found pretty much any > retail environment you walk into. Maybe a warm-winter area. 5Ws are relatively rare in Phoenix where the all-time record low is 23F and many winters never get below freezing. Mike > Maybe a warm-winter area. 5Ws are relatively rare in Phoenix where the > all-time record low is 23F and many winters never get below freezing. That could very well be, around here all a person has to do to find a particular item is open their eyes <g>. >> Maybe a warm-winter area. 5Ws are relatively rare in Phoenix where the >> all-time record low is 23F and many winters never get below freezing. > > That could very well be, around here all a person has to do to find a > particular item is open their eyes <g>. You also can't find a snow shovel in Phoenix :-) However, chains are common enough because the mountains are a popular destination. Mike > You also can't find a snow shovel in Phoenix :-) However, chains are > common enough because the mountains are a popular destination. LOL! I suppose that's true. I'm hoping I don't have to bother with digging (pardon the pun <g>) out the snow shovels this year. Hey! Herring chokers might have it, but you very rarely see 5W20. Wal-Mart has just started to carry it in bulk oil, Canadian Tire did not have it, and most aftermarket auto supply i.e. Partssource, auto value etc do not have it. They will order it for you but it is not carried as normal stock. Any how its a premium price when you can find it 5W30 does a better job anyhow. > No. > Don't get too hung up on oil grades. The fact that the people who designed the engine call for it doesn't make it an important point? > My Ford Focus calls for 5W20, but because the oil is still difficult to > find > and retail outlets like to bend you over price wise for oil changes with > 5W20, I use 5W30 in the winter and 10W30 with no problems for 5 years. Difficult to find? Where are you living? 5W20 can be found pretty much any retail environment you walk into. > Hey! > Herring chokers might have it, but you very rarely see 5W20. I'm not in New Brunswick, that's where you find Herring Chokers. Maybe that's your problem, looking in the wrong location <g>. >Wal-Mart has > just started to carry it in bulk oil, Canadian Tire did not have it, and > most aftermarket auto supply i.e. Partssource, auto value etc do not have > it. They will order it for you but it is not carried as normal stock. Any > how its a premium price when you can find it 5W30 does a better job > anyhow. It's been available here since before December of 2000, when I did my first oil change on my 2001 Accord. Then it was expensive (close to $5.00 a litre) since then it has come down in price. Even in April of 2001 a case of 5W20 could be purchased from the Ford dealers in town for $17.00. > Recently got an oil change in my 02 civic lx 1.7. BigO put 10w30 in it > instead of 5w20. Manual says to use 5w20 or 5w30 in a bind, as long as [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > -Nate You really need the 5W20 when the temperature is very low. As long as the engine wasn't started when *really* cold it shouldn't have had any effect at all. Even at that, the oil starvation is only for a few seconds and probably isn't any worse than putting an empty filter on the car. Sleep easy. Mike > Recently got an oil change in my 02 civic lx 1.7. BigO put 10w30 in it > instead of 5w20. Manual says to use 5w20 or 5w30 in a bind, as long as > next change is 5w20. I drove about 200 miles before I noticed. I made > them switch it out for 5w20. Could this have caused any long term > damage? Not unless you are operating in a very cold artic climate, and in most parts of the world this is the wrong time of year for that. Don't worry about it. Honda specifies 10W-30 and even heavier grades of oil for that same engine in other markets. The 5W-20 business is mostly to squeeze out a few percentage points of theoretical fuel economy. I would, however, be a little worried about what quality of 5W-20 oil the Big-O people used. You want a major brand oil, not some second tier stuff when running on the edge, which 5W-20 does do. John They use Shell -Nate A lot of people are fooled into thinking this is important. Clean Air Act of 1992 provided incentives for manufacturers to spec 5-20 as a requirement since lower viscosity oil may improve fuel economy very slightly although you will get better lubrication with the 10-30 that was put in it. If anything, your engine will last longer if you consistently run 10-30. > Recently got an oil change in my 02 civic lx 1.7. BigO put 10w30 in it > instead of 5w20. Manual says to use 5w20 or 5w30 in a bind, as long as [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > -Nate Oh my God! Your car is ruined! You won't be able to sell it for $10 to the junk man now! But since I feel sorry for you and I am such a good sam I will buy it from you for $20. > Recently got an oil change in my 02 civic lx 1.7. BigO put 10w30 in it > instead of 5w20. Manual says to use 5w20 or 5w30 in a bind, as long as [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > -Nate f.ck off.... -Nate > Recently got an oil change in my 02 civic lx 1.7. BigO put 10w30 in it > instead of 5w20. Manual says to use 5w20 or 5w30 in a bind, as long as > next change is 5w20. I drove about 200 miles before I noticed. I made > them switch it out for 5w20. Could this have caused any long term > damage? No damage at all. You could have run the oil to its change interval and then replaced with 5W20.  SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ Cool, thanks. -Nate shell oil is generic. i would insist on castrol or valvoline or at least another well known brand. lots of oil change places use cheap quality gas station brand oil which isn't as good as the major brands. that should be your main concern. your engine is relatively new now but over time that cheap oil may take a toll on it. -jeff > Cool, thanks. > > -Nate > shell oil is generic. i would insist on castrol or valvoline or at least > another well known brand. lots of oil change places use cheap quality gas [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > -jeff You sir really do not know what you are talking about. The image that gas station brand oils are somehow inferior is a result of years of marketing dollars and has no correlation to product quality. Did you know, for example, that Shell owns the Wolf's Head, Quaker State and Pennzoil brands and has for many years now? Did you know that BP owns Castrol? Did you know that Honda brand 5W-20 oil from your dealership is the same stuff as is also sold as Exxon Superflo 5W-20? Did you know that the Chevron Supreme/Texaco Havoline twins (really the same company and the same oil) are two of the most highly regarded conventional oils made? Do you know that Kendall GT1, Union 76, Phillips TropArtic, Conoco and Motorcraft motor oils are all the same product manufactured by ConocoPhillps and put into different bottles? Do you know that the recent GF-4/SM oil standards have kicked up the performance requirements for motor oils dramatically and that as a result the performance differences between branded oils today are the smallest they have been in history? Have a look at the forums on www.bobistheoilguy.com sometime if you want to learn some things about oil. The only real difference between specialty brand oils and "gas station" brand oils are the hundreds of millions of dollars spent marketing the specialty brands to easily led minds. It cracks me up that there are Kendall loyalists who wouldn't be caught dead putting lowly Phillips TropArtic oil in their cars and instead pay a premium for Kendall .... suckers! John >> shell oil is generic. i would insist on castrol or valvoline or at >> least another well known brand. lots of oil change places use cheap [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Phillips TropArtic, Conoco and Motorcraft motor oils are all the same > product manufactured by ConocoPhillps and put into different bottles? hold on a second john. many different products come out of the same factory, but it doesn't mean they have the same composition. oil is not a good subject for the layman because he/she doesn't have analysis tools laying about in the kitchen, but a similar product on which people often /do/ have experience is paint. most paint sold here comes from the same few factories. there are /many/ different brands, even though the producers are the same. BUT, compositions between brands are frequently very different. take opacity for instance where you're trying to paint over crayon marks in the kids room. if you've ever been in the situation where one brand covers the marks in one or two coats, but another takes 3 coats and /still/ won't adequately cover, you'll know what i mean. now, regarding oils, motorcraft brand oil is /supposed/ to be a high quality oil based on chevron. and the analysis shown in bitog confirms inorganic content consistent with that. BUT, i'm here to assure you that in my 16 year old civic, that oil pisses through seals like there's no tomorrow. i mean, you literally watch that stuff drip out. but if i use castrol gtx, all my seals [after a couple of weeks at any rate] start to seal again. the additives in castrol that cause that are not the inorganics that conveniently show up in spark analysis so commonly used by bitog adherents - they're the /organic/ compounds, the plasticizers, the swelling agents, that motorcraft evidently doesn't have, or at least, not in sufficient quantity to be effective. what other organics are so important? the viscosity index modifiers! again, there is a crude test for this used in standard analysis, but it doesn't identify quantity or types of compounds used and the results can be distorted by other factors. getting the picture? bottom line: yes, this stuff comes out of the same factory, and yes, some brands may be the same. but not /all/ brands are the same, and not all products from any particular factory are the same. > Do you know that the recent GF-4/SM oil standards have kicked up the > performance requirements for motor oils dramatically and that as a [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > John > bottom line: yes, this stuff comes out of the same factory, and yes, > some brands may be the same. but not /all/ brands are the same, and not > all products from any particular factory are the same. The point is that Valvoline, Quaker State, Castrol etc. are not ipso facto better than Exxon, Shell, Texaco, Chevron or other gas station brand oils. I never said that all brands are the same, but I did say that with the new SM generation the practical differences between them are smaller than ever, a statement which I stand behind. I also said that the ConocoPhillips brands do appear to be exactly the same product in different bottles. Shell continues to have slightly different formulations for most of their Shell, Quaker State and Pennzoil branded oils, but the differences are becoming less meaningful all the time. I am also quite certain about the Motorcraft-Conoco connection as opposed to a Motorcraft-Chevron connection. John seems to be lots of knowledge about oil here have an opinion on Mobil 1 i currently use Mobil 1 5w20 or 10w30 in '93 Civic Si with mobil 1 filter or motorcraft or puralator is there a better oil solution > > bottom line: yes, this stuff comes out of the same factory, and yes, > > some brands may be the same. but not /all/ brands are the same, and not [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > John >> bottom line: yes, this stuff comes out of the same factory, and yes, >> some brands may be the same. but not /all/ brands are the same, and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > facto better than Exxon, Shell, Texaco, Chevron or other gas station > brand oils. with respect, i don't buy that. this may not be you, but it scares me that people rely on the rudimentary spark spectrum analysis from bitog to form opinions because it just doesn't cover the key issues of detergency, thermal stability, viscosity index improver stability, oxidation resistance, acid resistance, anti-foaming, seal conditioner [etc] packages that are vital to the long term viability of any motor oil. just throw in a bit of moly [or something cheap & spark testable] & the bitog folk are happy! > I never said that all brands are the same, but I did say that with the > new SM generation the practical differences between them are smaller > than ever, a statement which I stand behind. ok, the bar is raised. doesn't mean they all achieve the same margin above that bar though. > I also said that the > ConocoPhillips brands do appear to be exactly the same product in > different bottles. maybe. > Shell continues to have slightly different formulations for most of > their Shell, Quaker State and Pennzoil branded oils, but the differences > are becoming less meaningful all the time. > > I am also quite certain about the Motorcraft-Conoco connection as > opposed to a Motorcraft-Chevron connection. ok. i think they change from time to time. > John > > I never said that all brands are the same, but I did say that with the > > new SM generation the practical differences between them are smaller > > than ever, a statement which I stand behind. > > ok, the bar is raised. doesn't mean they all achieve the same margin > above that bar though. yes, but the engine is designed *to that bar*. Not to anything above it. All the engine requires is the SAE rating. Period. Now, that being said, is it good to go above and beyond that bar? Maybe. Where is the cost/benefit analysis? Where is the point of diminishing returns? Should one use the lower priced oil and go 3K miles between changes, or should one use the higher price/name brand oil (with possibly increased "margin above the bar") with longer change intervals? >>>I never said that all brands are the same, but I did say that with the >>>new SM generation the practical differences between them are smaller [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > yes, but the engine is designed *to that bar*. Not to anything above it. [hypothetically] if the engine were able to be in a non-wear situation as opposed to a wear situation based on improved lube, would the engine not benefit? even though it's already a highly wear resistant motor? > All the engine requires is the SAE rating. Period. that's the minimum. detroit [sae] only cares about 100k miles. and most motors can do that within their wear tolerance, even on crappy oil. > Now, that being said, is it good to go above and beyond that bar? > > Maybe. > > Where is the cost/benefit analysis? Where is the point of diminishing > returns? good question. for a [detroit] manufacturer, anything over 100k is diminished returns. honda otoh built their reputation on reliability and longevity. > Should one use the lower priced oil and go 3K miles between changes, or > should one use the higher price/name brand oil (with possibly increased > "margin above the bar") with longer change intervals? based on my experience with leaky oil seals, /definitely/ go with the better oil and the longer service interval. the lube economics are the same but the service issues are reduced. seems to be lots of knowledge about oil here have an opinion on Mobil 1 i currently use Mobil 1 5w20 or 10w30 in '93 Civic Si with mobil 1 filter or motorcraft or puralator is there a better oil solution TIA rob > > bottom line: yes, this stuff comes out of the same factory, and yes, > > some brands may be the same. but not /all/ brands are the same, and not [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > John The 5w20 oils of today from any of the major brands are all going to do you a good job in Honda engines that require this weight. If you want to go extended drain intervals it is best to have a used oil analysis done. That will guide you better than anything as it will give you an oil life expectancy that is fairly accurate. Also, there is no real need to go to full synthetic oil except under the most severe conditions. There is an excellent oil additive called LC20 (LubeControl20) that is made in Texas and has been around for years. Some of the most respected people in the oil analysis business as well as countless customers swear by this stuff. A few ounces added to your oil and you can use dino as if it were a synthetic (and at a much cheaper cost overall). In fact, quite a few motorists go 10K with just dino and LC. I personally will use Havoline 5w20 in my Honda Ridgeline and LC20 and change oil by the oil life monitor. I still have the factory fill in my Ridge but other owners have reported the OLM will show service due at 15% oil life expectancy (somewhere between 5-7K depending on driving habits). To be sure that the oil and the OLM are in synch, I will have an analysis done on my first or second change. This is really the only way to tell if your monitor is accurate and if the engine likes the oil you choose to use. MARTY > now, regarding oils, motorcraft brand oil is /supposed/ to be a high > quality oil based on chevron. and the analysis shown in bitog confirms [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > plasticizers, the swelling agents, that motorcraft evidently doesn't > have, or at least, not in sufficient quantity to be effective. Sounds like your old Civic is a good candidate for one of the high mileage formulations and that GTX works well for you. Perhaps GTX has some of those seal conditioners in it as well. Castrol High Mileage might do even better for you. Old leaky cars are a special case which often benefit from a special solution. John >> now, regarding oils, motorcraft brand oil is /supposed/ to be a high >> quality oil based on chevron. and the analysis shown in bitog [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > John believe it or not, the car doen't leak at all now. as in, it doesn't leave drips on the garage floor. there's still a little weeping, but as i say, nothing sufficient to drip - and no teardrops of oil hanging under the car when you get underneath like before. i'm using standard [cheaper] castrol gtx. before, it used to leave oil all over the floor and at stop lights at night, you could see smoke come out from under the hood where it was dripping on the exhaust. i bought a gasket/seal kit in anticipation of repairs, but haven't used it since i changed oil brand. This is not true. A lot of marketing money is spent to convince people that well known brand name oil is higher quality and therefore worth spending extra money on. All brands and generic motor oil sold in US and Canada must meet API, SAE and other standards and is of equal quality. Don't feel bad though, lots of others are fooled by this too and it applies with many other products as well. > shell oil is generic. i would insist on castrol or valvoline or at least > another well known brand. lots of oil change places use cheap quality gas [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >> -Nate not all motor oils are OK. there are differences. i wouldn't go to the dollar store and buy whatever cheapo brand they have and think it's going to protect my engine in cold weather. if you want your engine to start knocking go ahead and use whatever generic made is cheapest. name brand oils are in competition for the best product so they are better than odd branded ones. maybe in the original posters case shell brand oil may be suitable for a honda but i would still prefer penzoil or castrol or quaker state or valvoline over it myself. -jeff > This is not true. A lot of marketing money is spent to convince people > that well known brand name oil is higher quality and therefore worth [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >>> >>> -Nate >not all motor oils are OK. there are differences. i wouldn't go to the >dollar store and buy whatever cheapo brand they have and think it's going to >protect my engine in cold weather. if you want your engine to start knocking >go ahead and use whatever generic made is cheapest. Oil will not cause knocking. That is caused by gas that has too low an octane number for your engine. >> not all motor oils are OK. there are differences. i wouldn't go to the >> dollar store and buy whatever cheapo brand they have and think it's going to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Oil will not cause knocking. That is caused by gas that has too low an > octane number for your engine. Oil can cause knocking if the grade is too thin. Different knocking, like main bearings. You wont have too many problems in the USA but you will in hotter climes like on the equator maybe. Smart people use a militiary grade oil in Australia, because most oils specified for the usa market is too thin for the local market. Reverse problem >Oil can cause knocking if the grade is too thin. Different knocking, >like main bearings. Even on modern computerized engines? J. >> Oil can cause knocking if the grade is too thin. Different knocking, >> like main bearings. > > Even on modern computerized engines? > > J. I dont think a computer can pick up mechanical knocking, though it can pick up low oil pressure ? Maybe on some... > This is not true. A lot of marketing money is spent to convince people that > well known brand name oil is higher quality and therefore worth spending > extra money on. All brands and generic motor oil sold in US and Canada must > meet API, SAE and other standards and is of equal quality. Don't feel bad > though, lots of others are fooled by this too and it applies with many other > products as well. I agree with you in spirit but not in detail. All oils have to meet the same minimum standards, but that does not mean that all oils are of equal quality. Just ask VW about that some time :). They have published a short list of oil approved to their tests which are more strict than API standards and the engines on some VWs are highly prone to sludging if only minimal quality oils are used. All tires sold in the US have to meet certain DOT minimum requirements, but there are massive differences in performance and longevity amoungst the various tires being offered. John |
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