Car Forum / Honda Cars / November 2005
crank bolt tightening debate
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jim beam - 05 Nov 2005 02:07 GMT this afternoon, i went to my favorite junkyard and bought two crank bolts. one from an 91 civic, one from a 92 civic. i'm going to post the pics later this evening, but the observations are these:
_91_ * eyeball=poppingly hard to shift - had to get a fulcrum and bounce full bodyweight at the end of a 18"x3/4" breaker bar. * no evidence of loctite. * clear fretting damage on the mating surface between the washer & the bolt head. * no evidence of corrosion. [i'm in california] * pulley wheel locked with single woodruff key.
_92_ * it was definitely snug, but i could remove with one hand. * bolt thread clearly loctited. * no evidence of fretting. * no evidence of corrosion. * pulley wheel splined /and/ woodruffed.
now, we all know what loctite does - it binds threads so they don't move. no movement means no possible further tightening. loctite also means a bolt is hard to remove compared to its fastening torque.
conclusions:
1. there is /definitely/ lash in the 91 pulley wheel - something that honda evidently felt needed to be addressed with the addition of a splined interface for the 92. [splines don't eliminate lash, but help mitigate it.] fretting [or lack thereof in the case of the 92] is as clear an evidence of lash as you can get.
2. loctite /prevents/ further tightening of the bolt! hence the 92 was much easier to remove, despite the loctite's binding function. the reduced lash would help in this regard also.
time to get out the camera...
TeGGeR® - 05 Nov 2005 04:30 GMT jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:jY2dnf6UQMdVmPHeRVn- sQ@speakeasy.net:
> this afternoon, i went to my favorite junkyard and bought two crank > bolts. one from an 91 civic, one from a 92 civic. i'm going to post > the pics later this evening, but the observations are these: <snip>
Jim: Properly tightened, that bolt does NOT allow any sort of movement. It /cannot/, and it /does not/. Period. Full stop. End of story.
You may be an electronics whiz, but you are clearly no mechanical engineer.
The pulley and the pulley bolt do NOT move in use, and the bolt absolutely does NOT rotate so as to "tighten" after initial torque.
If you choose to believe that the bolt tightens more through rotation after initial tightening torque, then you are misleading yourself and everyone who reads your posts.
There are many reasons why some crank bolts are difficult to remove. Rotation after initial tightening torque is *NOT* one of them.
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Burt S. - 05 Nov 2005 10:21 GMT > Jim: Properly tightened, that bolt does NOT allow any sort of movement. It > /cannot/, and it /does not/. Period. Full stop. End of story. > The pulley and the pulley bolt do NOT move in use, and the bolt absolutely > does NOT rotate so as to "tighten" after initial torque. If the bolt doesn't move then locktite would have been recommended, but instead they recommend oil.
http://square.cjb.cc/images/oilgood.gif
> If you choose to believe that the bolt tightens more through rotation after > initial tightening torque, then you are misleading yourself and everyone > who reads your posts. Not observing the different variety of bolts manufactured is misleading. Patents are create for almost everything, possibly including the tap and die used on self-tightening bolts.
> There are many reasons why some crank bolts are difficult to remove. > Rotation after initial tightening torque is *NOT* one of them. Most of these crank bolts show no signs of wear, crystalization, bonding or rust. However there is a slight wear on the face of the bolt which probably suggest that it's moving.
Matt Ion - 05 Nov 2005 19:36 GMT Hmmm, not to add to the confusion, but...
I don't know how much relevance this has to crankshaft pulley bolts, but on every table saw or radial-arm saw I've ever used, reverse-threaded nuts are used to hold the blade on the threaded shaft, because the clockwise (looking at the shaft) rotation of the blade would cause a nut with a normal thread to come loose and spin off. And yes, they do tighten up, with very little use.
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Burt S. - 06 Nov 2005 03:53 GMT > Hmmm, not to add to the confusion, but... > I don't know how much relevance this has to crankshaft pulley bolts, but [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > with a normal thread to come loose and spin off. And yes, they do > tighten up, with very little use. Same thing on my angle grinder, my right hand and left hand radial arm saw. The bolt/nut are screwed in the opposite direction of the spinning blade. Even finger tight the bolt/nut will tighten (spin inward) over time.
This is caused by (my theory) the force of acelleration of the motor is stronger than the inertial mass of the blade. Another words, the blade wants to sit still. Now, if you look at the face or washer of the bolt you realize that it has a greater surface area contact than on the other side of the blade. The greater surface area (should not be oil or otherwise the bolt won't tighten) is actually moving. However, the threads should be oiled to prevent galling. I believe the same principle is used on the crank pulley.
TeGGeR® - 06 Nov 2005 15:26 GMT > Hmmm, not to add to the confusion, but... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > with a normal thread to come loose and spin off. And yes, they do > tighten up, with very little use. Totally different application.
Honda is just about the only manufacturer whose bolts run in a tightening direction. Everybody else has bolts that run in a LOOSENING direction, and these DO NOT COME LOOSE IN USE.
Everybody elses' bolts are the same as Honda's, and are torqued to similar tensions.
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Matt Ion - 06 Nov 2005 17:29 GMT >>Hmmm, not to add to the confusion, but... >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Everybody elses' bolts are the same as Honda's, and are torqued to similar > tensions. The difference is, sawblades are not splined or keyed, so they can turn (and tighten) indefinitely. Splining or keying the pulley WOULD mitigate this effect.
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TeGGeR® - 06 Nov 2005 19:58 GMT >>>Hmmm, not to add to the confusion, but... >>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > turn (and tighten) indefinitely. Splining or keying the pulley WOULD > mitigate this effect. That's one difference. Also the automotive pulley bolts are to be torqued to such a figuure as to prevent movement. Your saw blade nuts/bolts are just snugged by hand to an unknown torque, and are meant to be repeatedly removed and replaced.
I restate: "Honda is just about the only manufacturer whose bolts run in a tightening direction. Everybody else has bolts that run in a LOOSENING direction, and these DO NOT COME LOOSE IN USE." Nobody can explain why this is, if it's assumed that the pulley and bolt can move relative to the crank.
And even on a Honda, a pulley bolt insufficiently tightened (as little as 20 lbs short of the proper figure), will eventually result in a bolt that *FALLS OUT*. Talk to any mechanic familiar with this subject.
The damned assembly is SOLID in use when properly assembled. Nothing anybody says here will change that fundamental fact.
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Burt S. - 07 Nov 2005 03:07 GMT > That's one difference. Also the automotive pulley bolts are to be torqued > to such a figuure as to prevent movement. Your saw blade nuts/bolts are > just snugged by hand to an unknown torque, and are meant to be repeatedly > removed and replaced. Spines can reduce or eliminate movement if the spines channels are tapered. This is noticeable when you will require a gear puller to remove the pulley. But woodruff key aren't and they can produce play, or movements. I once removed a crank bolt (1988 at 180k miles) with a key. The face of the bolt is pretty worn from movements. Unlike a radial-arm saw the inertia from the weight load on the pulley develops in both directions but the bolt has to move in one direction so the woodruff key is used.
> I restate: "Honda is just about the only manufacturer whose bolts run in a tightening > direction. Everybody else has bolts that run in a LOOSENING direction, and > these DO NOT COME LOOSE IN USE." Nobody can explain why this is, if it's > assumed that the pulley and bolt can move relative to the crank. What do you mean?... Honda have made motors than spin clockwise and counterclockwise. And the crank bolts are always Lefty Lucey and Righty Tighty.
karl - 30 Nov 2005 01:30 GMT > Date: Sun 6 Nov 2005 19:58 > From: "TeGGeR®" [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >>>I've ever used, reverse-threaded nuts are used to > >>>hold the blade on the threaded shaft, snip
> >> Totally different application. > >> > >> Honda is just about the only manufacturer whose bolts run > >> in a tightening direction. Everybody else has bolts that run > >> in a LOOSENING direction, and these DO NOT COME LOOSE IN USE. snip
> > The difference is, sawblades are not splined or keyed, so > > they can turn (and tighten) indefinitely. Splining or keying > > the pulley WOULD mitigate this effect. Mitigate? Splining precludes rotation!
> That's one difference. Also the automotive pulley bolts are > to be torqued to such a figuure as to prevent movement. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > The damned assembly is SOLID in use when properly assembled. > Nothing anybody says here will change that fundamental fact. I agree, everything else is rubbish.
TeGGeR® - 06 Nov 2005 15:24 GMT >> Jim: Properly tightened, that bolt does NOT allow any sort of >> movement. It /cannot/, and it /does not/. Period. Full stop. End of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > If the bolt doesn't move then locktite would have been recommended, > but instead they recommend oil. As I said before, the il is a crude friction stabilizer. It is common for high-stress bolt situations to specify friction stabilizers, either as a coating, or as user-applied materials.
> http://square.cjb.cc/images/oilgood.gif > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > misleading. Patents are create for almost everything, possibly > including the tap and die used on self-tightening bolts. The bolt on your crank pulley is NOT "self tighetening".
>> There are many reasons why some crank bolts are difficult to remove. >> Rotation after initial tightening torque is *NOT* one of them. > > Most of these crank bolts show no signs of wear, crystalization, > bonding or rust. However there is a slight wear on the face of the > bolt which probably suggest that it's moving. Whatever the cause of the face wear (the face isn't oiled, remember), it isn't moving.
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jim beam - 05 Nov 2005 14:51 GMT > jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:jY2dnf6UQMdVmPHeRVn- > sQ@speakeasy.net: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Jim: Properly tightened, that bolt does NOT allow any sort of movement. It > /cannot/, and it /does not/. Period. Full stop. End of story. i've just emailed you the photo evidence. if you host it, we can all discuss it.
> You may be an electronics whiz, but you are clearly no mechanical engineer. i'm no electronics guy and no engineer. i'm an [ex] metallurgist. and metallurgists spend a big proportion of their time sorting out the screw-ups the engineers make because half of them don't know what they're doing and were asleep in materials 101 or are too egotistical to bother to ask.
> The pulley and the pulley bolt do NOT move in use, and the bolt absolutely > does NOT rotate so as to "tighten" after initial torque. check your email. i've just sent you the galling evidence. it's a perfect textbook example.
> If you choose to believe that the bolt tightens more through rotation after > initial tightening torque, then you are misleading yourself and everyone > who reads your posts. the loctited bolt/splined pulley does not move. the torque-only bolt/woodruff-only pulley does. the galling proves it.
> There are many reasons why some crank bolts are difficult to remove. > Rotation after initial tightening torque is *NOT* one of them. except that we have the photo evidence to prove to the contrary!
TeGGeR® - 06 Nov 2005 19:49 GMT >> The pulley and the pulley bolt do NOT move in use, and the bolt >> absolutely does NOT rotate so as to "tighten" after initial torque. > > check your email. i've just sent you the galling evidence. it's a > perfect textbook example. The pics are here: http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/jim-beam_pulley_pics/
>> If you choose to believe that the bolt tightens more through rotation >> after initial tightening torque, then you are misleading yourself and >> everyone who reads your posts. > > the loctited bolt/splined pulley does not move. the torque-only > bolt/woodruff-only pulley does. the galling proves it. Unfortunately, the pics aren't really evidence of much other than this: You've taken photos of a pulley from an unknown car with an unknown history given unknown servcicing by persons of unknown competence.
These pics are strongly suggestive of a pulley having been installed at some point with no Woodruff key, or otherwise installed incorrectly. I can assure you a pulley properly installed will not gall that way.
>> There are many reasons why some crank bolts are difficult to remove. >> Rotation after initial tightening torque is *NOT* one of them. > > except that we have the photo evidence to prove to the contrary! A properly tightened joint dowes not rotate. Your pictures do not prove anythng one way or the other because we do not know the car's history.
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jim beam - 07 Nov 2005 02:10 GMT >>>The pulley and the pulley bolt do NOT move in use, and the bolt >>>absolutely does NOT rotate so as to "tighten" after initial torque. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > The pics are here: > http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/jim-beam_pulley_pics/ thanks dude - appreciate it.
>>>If you choose to believe that the bolt tightens more through rotation >>>after initial tightening torque, then you are misleading yourself and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > You've taken photos of a pulley from an unknown car with an unknown history > given unknown servcicing by persons of unknown competence. on the one hand, it's healthy to be skeptical. on the other, i've done enough failure analysis on enough machinery to know what i'm looking at. i can also deduce something of the service history based in what i see.
> These pics are strongly suggestive of a pulley having been installed at > some point with no Woodruff key, or otherwise installed incorrectly. I can > assure you a pulley properly installed will not gall that way. sorry, but i'm the guy that took it off. and if you can't accept that the pictured galling happened with the key installed, then we have a debate beyond the tech arena. the woodruff key, the pulley wheel and the crank keyway were all in perfectly acceptable condition, although there was evidence of lash - much like the lash evident on the splines of a driveshaft. there was no evidence of the pulley wheel ever having been spun out.
> > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > A properly tightened joint dowes not rotate. Your pictures do not prove > anythng one way or the other because we do not know the car's history. without the woodruff, the pulley would absolutely rotate. the more the bolt was torqued, the more difficult it would be to turn, but saying it won't & can't move is like denial of elasticity.
regarding the 91 vehicle's history, i know that it had been relatively well serviced. it had 220k miles. and that pulley bolt had been removed 3 times. you can't see it from the pic, but the skid mark at 2 o/c on the l/h bolt's washer in this pic:
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/jim-beam_pulley_pics/both_washer_u-side.jpg
it has 3 of those skidmarks, coinciding with the keyway, one for each removal. the galling evident on the other side of the washer is not what you would see from 3 removals. not by any stretch.
the 92 bolt otoh, you can see the evidence of one removal [evident from the keyway mark] on the bolt, by me. the bolt side of that washer shows some minor skid evidence, but as you can see, it's not impacted the plating and there's no evidence of galling whatsoever.
karl - 30 Nov 2005 02:08 GMT > From: "alt.autos.honda group" <noreply@googlegroups.com> > Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 02:25:00 +0000 [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > A properly tightened joint does not rotate. Your pictures do not prove > anythng one way or the other because we do not know the car's history. Very well said.
karl - 30 Nov 2005 01:28 GMT > jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:jY2dnf6UQMdVmPHeRVn- > sQ@speakeasy.net: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > There are many reasons why some crank bolts are difficult to remove. > Rotation after initial tightening torque is *NOT* one of them. That is right; anything else is rubbish.
Burt S. - 05 Nov 2005 10:21 GMT > this afternoon, i went to my favorite junkyard and bought two crank > bolts. one from an 91 civic, one from a 92 civic. i'm going to post [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > reduced lash would help in this regard also. > time to get out the camera... As I suspected. I've created a page just to explain my reasoning check it out here.
http://square.cjb.cc/bolts.htm
jim beam - 05 Nov 2005 14:57 GMT >>this afternoon, i went to my favorite junkyard and bought two crank >>bolts. one from an 91 civic, one from a 92 civic. i'm going to post [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > http://square.cjb.cc/bolts.htm that's bunk. you're citing rolled vs. cut threads as evidence of some kind of ratchet mechanism? no. threads are rolled for fatigue resistance - rolling has nothing to do with ratcheting. oh, and yes, i /have/ looked at plenty of bolts under microscopes, thanks.
Elle - 05 Nov 2005 17:42 GMT > Burt S. wrote: > >>this afternoon, i went to my favorite junkyard and bought two crank [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > that's bunk. you're citing rolled vs. cut threads as evidence of some > kind of ratchet mechanism? no. I agree with Jim that, upon vibration, the cut of the threads does not tend to tighten the bolt. Your Figure 3, Burt, doesn't show anything different from a coarse thread cut. The threads are helically cut on both coarse and fine thread designs, of course, so back-and-forth vibrating forces will tend to have the same effect on both, absent other forces being at work.
So far I think the rest of the site has much to offer.
I would suggest
1. Making sure you use the right units for torque. The units for torque in automobile manuals are conventionally given as ft-lbs or newton-meters in manuals. I realize English is not your first language, so maybe something got lost in translation here.
2. From my reading, "momentum force" is not a commonly accepted way of characterizing the forces acting on the pulley under normal car operating conditions. Inertial force is okay, being one way of saying centrifugal forces are what mostly tend to push it off the crankshaft. (Recognizing, for the physics-inclined among us, that whether it's accurate to call the effects of centripetal forces "centrifugal forces" depends on what frame of reference is used. What "centrifugal force" means in practical, hands-on applications is well-understood, so I'm using it.)
3. Your wording is not perfect, but then rarely is mine. I can understand your other points and tend to agree with them. I think it is particularly noteworthy that oil is supposed to be used, /not/ something like Loc-Tite, on the threads. For now, I agree the purpose is to ensure that the bolt and shaft threads can move relative to each other upon commencing operations.
4. I want to look further into your hypothesis about what causes that loud crack when the bolt frees. I think you're right that it may be due to release of a large axial load in the bolt and so is a sonic boom(?). If it is a sonic boom, then that does tend to suggest that the pulley bolt is in fact under very high axial load. It's not, like Tegger has been contending, merely the galling of female and male threads against each other, essentially adhering one to the other.
5. OTOH, I think galling does play a role. One need only consider some of the exhaust bolts that become so hard to remove. Many of them are fine threaded (not sure if they're super-fine, non-standard fine threads or not). Fine threads are used to minimize the likelihood of the bolts vibrating free during operation. The greater surface area contact between male and female threads is what holds fine threaded applications more tightly together than coarse threads. But unlike the pulley bolt, the exhaust bolts don't have a rotating mass attached to them. The exhaust bolts also get very hot, though, and they also vibrate while they're hot. Heat cycling--temperatures being alternately raised and lowered, causing the metal to expand and contract and fill in whatever microscopic gaps there are between male and female thread surfaces--may play a huge role, as I believe SoCalMike, for one, proposed. So the exhaust bolts seize up principally due to galling. (Not sure they're all so terribly exposed to, say, gases of combustion causing corrosion, though. Temperature may cause foreign materials on the bolt to crud up the thread surfaces, OTOH.) The exhaust bolts are all I believe notably smaller in diameter than the pulley bolt. Is the torque required to loosen these exhaust system bolts in some proportion to the pulley bolt torque? I couldn't say with certainty. In sum, right now I personally can't rule out either a highly axially loaded bolt or galling due to massive heat cycling causing that loud "crack" when one frees the pulley bolt.
6. At the bottom of your site, I do not think your explanation of why the loosening torque is often higher than the tightening torque is accurate. I agree with boltscience.com , Tegger, and Scott that the main reason the loosening torque is higher is the difference between the dynamic coefficient of friction and the static coefficient of friction. The static coefficient is higher.
> threads are rolled for fatigue > resistance - rolling has nothing to do with ratcheting. oh, and yes, i > /have/ looked at plenty of bolts under microscopes, thanks. Jim, re your current investigation: All you noted is interesting. For me, the fretting on the one car's bolt-washer mating surfaces is particularly so.
I would hypothesize that the 92 vehicle hadn't been in operation long with the loc-tited bolt. Also, if it had continued to run for some time, it was at higher risk of the pulley bolt coming undone, since no oil was used to facilitate relative (tightening) motion between female and male threads, leaving the vibrations/pulsing of the pulley against the bolt head to potentially overwhelm the system, vibrate free the bolt, and so knock the pulley free of the crankshaft.
I hope you bring "pillows" to the yard when you're jumping up and down on that 1.5 foot breaker bar. ;-)
I may take pictures in a few weeks if I free up my Civic's pulley bolt during a tire rotation, and the safety engineers among us can have at it.
:-) This remains an interesting academic debate, for bona fide engine enthusiasts (pity the poor soul who comes here lately just wanting to know whether he should change the washer for his oil drain plug at every oil change!). I trust others here are wise enough to keep the boxing gloves off and attend to them. I for one put my web site back up, and it does have some changes reflecting some of the discussion here, FWIW.
Elle Still an amateur learning much from those with specialized experience!
Burt S. - 06 Nov 2005 03:53 GMT > > that's bunk. you're citing rolled vs. cut threads as evidence of some > > kind of ratchet mechanism? no. Jim, I don't cite rolled vs. cut threads as evidence of some kind of ratchet mechanism, the images were simply not well drawn. I was citing the mechanisms that cause the bolt to wind inwards caused by they way the bore is tapped and the effects of the pulley.
> I agree with Jim that, upon vibration, the cut of the threads does not tend > to tighten the bolt. Your Figure 3, Burt, doesn't show anything different [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > either a highly axially loaded bolt or galling due to massive heat cycling > causing that loud "crack" when one frees the pulley bolt. Galling is possible on the exhaust bolt since they don't require lubricants. Once locked together you will notice the extreme "snap" upon release. O2 sensor are one the parts that can benefit from the anti-seize compound to prevent galling. On some areas on the exhaust system, self locking nuts are used instead.
> 6. > At the bottom of your site, I do not think your explanation of why the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > of friction and the static coefficient of friction. The static coefficient > is higher. Good work for showing what I should fix. I probably have to add better sketches to visualize a theory and avoid further confusions. Several sections are fixed based on your input and others not pertaining to the crank bolt is eliminated.
< snip>
-- http://square.cjb.cc/bolts.htm
karl - 07 Nov 2005 16:01 GMT > == 3 of 5 == > Date: Sat 5 Nov 2005 16:42 > From: "Elle" snip
> I agree with Jim that, upon vibration, the cut of the threads does not tend > to tighten the bolt. Your Figure 3, Burt, doesn't show anything different [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > 1. > Making sure you use the right units for torque. The units are irrelevant as long as the quantities are correct.
> The units for torque in > automobile manuals are conventionally given as ft-lbs or newton-meters in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > characterizing the forces acting on the pulley under normal car operating > conditions. Normal operating conditions or not, a moment of force is commonly called torque.
> Inertial force is okay, being one way of saying centrifugal > forces are what mostly tend to push it off the crankshaft. (Recognizing, for > the physics-inclined among us, that whether it's accurate to call the > effects of centripetal forces "centrifugal forces" depends on what frame of > reference is used. What "centrifugal force" means in practical, hands-on > applications is well-understood, so I'm using it.) Whatever that is, it is beyond me to see any relevancy to the bolt tightening debate.
> 3. > Your wording is not perfect, but then rarely is mine. I can understand your > other points and tend to agree with them. I think it is particularly > noteworthy that oil is supposed to be used, /not/ something like Loc-Tite, > on the threads. For now, I agree the purpose is to ensure that the bolt and > shaft threads can move relative to each other upon commencing operations. What would this be good for - the bolt should remain lose "upon commencing operations"?
> 4. > I want to look further into your hypothesis about what causes that loud [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > threads is what holds fine threaded applications more tightly together than > coarse threads. It's not the greater surface area that "holds fine threaded applications more tightly together," it is the smaller lead (the pitch in a simple bolt). <http://www.efunda.com/designstandards/screws/faste ners_intro.cfm?search_string=thread>
> But unlike the pulley bolt, the exhaust bolts don't have a > rotating mass attached to them. The exhaust bolts also get very hot, though, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > couldn't say with certainty. In sum, right now I personally can't rule out > either a highly axially loaded bolt or galling due to massive heat cycling Galling is abrasion and fusion caused by friction, not heat cycling.
> causing that loud "crack" when one frees the pulley bolt. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > of friction and the static coefficient of friction. The static coefficient > is higher. Elle - 07 Nov 2005 19:16 GMT > > Date: Sat 5 Nov 2005 16:42 > > From: "Elle" [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > The units are irrelevant as long as the quantities > are correct. If someone else would like to address this gentleman's comment above and his other assertions, then please be my guest.
snip for brevity
karl - 30 Nov 2005 01:33 GMT > From: "alt.autos.honda group" <noreply@googlegroups.com> > Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 02:03:46 +0000 [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > If someone else would like to address this gentleman's comment > above and his other assertions, then please be my guest. Because no one came forward to help you I will explain it to you myself. Could be helpful when "educating college engineering students."
A quantity consists of a value (also called magnitude) and a unit (also called dimension), for example "4 quarts," or "1 gallon." Here, "4" and "1" are the values and "quarts" and "gallon" are the units of the quantities. In these examples the values and the units are different, but they both specify the same quantity because 4 quarts equal 1 gallon. So, it is irrelevant in what units a quantity is expressed, but it is common to choose units that yield easy to handle values - avoiding very small or very large numbers.
And if you are specific about the "other assertions" I will help you with those, too.
Now, would you please help me? I don't understand your first paragraph. But this could be because I am neither a mechanic nor am I a metallurgist, and I didn't have the benefits of "materials 101." When rewriting it, please pay particular attention to the implications of, "the cut of the threads does not tend to tighten the bolt," and, "The threads are helically cut on both coarse and fine thread designs, of course, so back-and-forth vibrating forces will tend to have the same effect on both." What would be the effects if the threads were not helically cut, and what bolts would these be?
High - 30 Nov 2005 02:12 GMT > A quantity consists of a value (also called magnitude) and a > unit (also called dimension), for example "4 quarts," or "1 [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > And if you are specific about the "other assertions" I will > help you with those, too. I just remembered why I hated school. Thanks for the memories.
jim beam - 05 Nov 2005 20:56 GMT lower res pics are here:
http://www.snapfish.com/thumbnailshare/AlbumID=31395672/t_=36454773
Elle - 06 Nov 2005 01:34 GMT Since the below requires some kind of login, then if you send me the photo(s), I would be happy to post it as a query topic on the "Queries" page of my site.
Email: honda.lioness@earthlink.net
> lower res pics are here: > > http://www.snapfish.com/thumbnailshare/AlbumID=31395672/t_=36454773 jim beam - 06 Nov 2005 17:44 GMT > lower res pics are here: > > http://www.snapfish.com/thumbnailshare/AlbumID=31395672/t_=36454773 ok, let's try this instead:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/
Michael Pardee - 06 Nov 2005 23:53 GMT > ok, let's try this instead: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/ I still dunno. I've seen galled steel flat washers and bolt heads various places before (but I don't recall where they have been), so I wouldn't have thought it was unusual. I would speculate that the torque we need to apply to break crank bolts loose isn't being directed to the threads but to the head, where the galled surfaces are responsible for the excessive break-loose torque. Pure speculation, though.
Usually crank bolts (Honda or otherwise) need to loosen a quarter turn or so before they come free, and then there is no evidence of the threads galling - leading me to the speculation of the galled head and washer surfaces being the key. That would also be consistent with the observation that the break-loose torque goes up over the years, if engine heat and/or vibration is important in the development of the galling.
I don't think we have enough to work with to come up with a definitive answer.
Mike
Elle - 07 Nov 2005 00:39 GMT > "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message > news:M-idnbzPL_x73fPenZ2dnUVZ_sqdnZ2d@speakeasy.net... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > to break crank bolts loose isn't being directed to the threads but to the > head, where the galled surfaces are responsible for You mean they are a result of?
Galled refers to a surface that has been rubbed by something else.
> the excessive > break-loose torque. Pure speculation, though. > > Usually crank bolts (Honda or otherwise) need to loosen a quarter turn or so > before they come free, Are you sure you're not referring to the roughly quarter turn of typically 1/2-inch drive extension tool windup that occurs?
'Cause that will rotate about 45 degrees at 300 ft-lbs of torque. If more torque is required to breakloose the bolt, then even more angular deflection occurs. But it's not the bolt turning.
> and then there is no evidence of the threads > galling - leading me to the speculation of the galled head and washer > surfaces being the key. Are you saying you think the head and washer are adhering, and that's why the breakloose torque is so high?
> That would also be consistent with the observation > that the break-loose torque goes up over the years, if engine heat and/or > vibration is important in the development of the galling.
> I don't think we have enough to work with to come up with a definitive > answer. Quite right.
Michael Pardee - 07 Nov 2005 04:25 GMT >> I still dunno. I've seen galled steel flat washers and bolt heads various >> places before (but I don't recall where they have been), so I wouldn't [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> the excessive >> break-loose torque. Pure speculation, though. No, I'm uncertain if the galling is the result of other movement (either in torquing or in service) and that the galled surfaces are producing the excessive break-loose torque. I've dealt with galled threads before, and crank bolts just don't feel that way - once they back off a bit they always have been smooth for me. Disclaimer - I've only done a handful of crank bolts, not dozens or hundreds like pros encounter.
>> Usually crank bolts (Honda or otherwise) need to loosen a quarter turn or > so >> before they come free, > > Are you sure you're not referring to the roughly quarter turn of typically > 1/2-inch drive extension tool windup that occurs? I have never used extensions - really! The impact socket rotates an estimated 1/4 turn before it takes off. I always watch it, trying to will it to turn ;-) I've never really kept track of how far it rotates to reach torque specs when tightening.
> 'Cause that will rotate about 45 degrees at 300 ft-lbs of torque. If more > torque is required to breakloose the bolt, then even more angular [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Are you saying you think the head and washer are adhering, and that's why > the breakloose torque is so high? That's where I'm heading, but I don't really know if that's right. My opinion is still in freefall on this.
>> That would also be consistent with the observation >> that the break-loose torque goes up over the years, if engine heat and/or [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Quite right. Elle - 07 Nov 2005 14:45 GMT > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote snip
> No, I'm uncertain if the galling is the result of other movement (either in > torquing or in service) and that the galled surfaces are producing the > excessive break-loose torque. I've dealt with galled threads before, and > crank bolts just don't feel that way - once they back off a bit they always > have been smooth for me. I suspect this is the consensus, and I think it's a good point to throw in the mix: Galled bolts are hard to free for a number of turns after the initial breakloose. This hasn't happened in the maybe three times I've loosened my 91 Civic's pulley bolt.
> Disclaimer - I've only done a handful of crank > bolts, not dozens or hundreds like pros encounter.
> >> Usually crank bolts (Honda or otherwise) need to loosen a quarter turn or > > so [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I have never used extensions - really! The impact socket rotates an > estimated 1/4 turn before it takes off. Okay.
And no surprise about the impact wrench you're using. It's a popular method, by all reports here.
> > Are you saying you think the head and washer are adhering, and that's why > > the breakloose torque is so high? > > > That's where I'm heading, but I don't really know if that's right. My > opinion is still in freefall on this. Okay.
Aside: If the thread's bolts are seized, I remain baffled at why the bolt head doesn't shear off the way they commonly do on certain suspension bolts.
Michael Pardee - 08 Nov 2005 03:25 GMT > Aside: If the thread's bolts are seized, I remain baffled at why the bolt > head doesn't shear off the way they commonly do on certain suspension > bolts. That's a good point.
Mike
jim beam - 08 Nov 2005 03:38 GMT >>Aside: If the thread's bolts are seized, I remain baffled at why the bolt >>head doesn't shear off the way they commonly do on certain suspension [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Mike you can see from the pics that there are no binding problems with the threads. even the 91 which has been removed 3 times shows no signs of distress.
Elle - 08 Nov 2005 05:08 GMT "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote snip
> you can see from the pics that there are no binding problems with the > threads. even the 91 which has been removed 3 times shows no signs of > distress. Any chance you can determine or narrow down what material the pulley bolts are made of?
For reckless academic fun.
'course, if you take out every pulley bolt in your local yard, this will guilt me into removing and then re-installing my 91 Civic's pulley bolt and painting the whole assembly with a line of pink frost glitter nail polish to ascertain movement (or not).
Michael Pardee - 08 Nov 2005 18:54 GMT > "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote > snip [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > to > ascertain movement (or not). That would settle the question decisively. It's just that none of us want to "bell the cat." And not many of us would go with pink frost glitter nail polish!
Mike
robm - 11 Nov 2005 12:57 GMT > > "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote > > snip [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Mike probably more of a Y-65P or R-510 nail polish guy
TeGGeR® - 11 Nov 2005 15:22 GMT >> > painting the whole assembly with a line of pink frost glitter nail > polish [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > probably more of a Y-65P or R-510 nail polish guy Do they make nail polish in NH-526M?
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robm - 14 Nov 2005 19:41 GMT > >> > painting the whole assembly with a line of pink frost glitter nail > > polish [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Do they make nail polish in NH-526M? I know where you can get a bottle with small brush attached to inside of cap, probably a year supply and you may need little more than nail polish remover to remove it :)
wonder if they sell pink frost glitter in gallon cans ? that would be a great project color for an old honda CVCC
SoCalMike - 15 Nov 2005 03:15 GMT > wonder if they sell pink frost glitter in gallon cans ? > that would be a great project color for an old honda CVCC bet an auto paint store would have something close! House Of Kolor makes some interesting showcar paint.
jim beam - 07 Nov 2005 02:20 GMT >>ok, let's try this instead: >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > places before (but I don't recall where they have been), so I wouldn't have > thought it was unusual. it's not - because bolts move! that's why there's a whole industry dedicated to the production of locking mechanisms for threaded fastners. usually, we only care about the ones that loosen because they are more likely to cause the failures.
> I would speculate that the torque we need to apply > to break crank bolts loose isn't being directed to the threads but to the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > galling - leading me to the speculation of the galled head and washer > surfaces being the key. which is consistent with lash of the pulley wheel!
> That would also be consistent with the observation > that the break-loose torque goes up over the years, if engine heat and/or > vibration is important in the development of the galling. that's part of it, but ultimately, as we can see from the skid marks on the underside of the washer, the bolt is still free to turn. the question is, at what torque. once it is turning, that sob is still in there /way/ tight, and way tighter than when torquing to fastening spec.
> I don't think we have enough to work with to come up with a definitive > answer. depends if we've spent time doing this kind of work before!
> Mike Michael Pardee - 06 Nov 2005 16:50 GMT What muddies the comparison is that the cars were both old enough to have been through at least one timing belt change, so we don't know how diligent the mechanics were about retightening to the spec'd torque. It could be that the one who loctited the bolt also wimped out on the torque, relying on the loctite to hold the bolt. (Not good practice, but it happens.)
I'm completely undecided on this debate.
Mike
Elle - 06 Nov 2005 17:15 GMT > What muddies the comparison is that the cars were both old enough to have > been through at least one timing belt change, I was figuring they were junked cars, so their age and mileage might have been quite low. One Honda Civic vintage early 1990s I saw in a junkyard last year had only 5500 miles or so on it. Pretty well stripped, so I figure it had been there awhile.
Maybe Jim will give the odometer readings next time.
> so we don't know how diligent > the mechanics were about retightening to the spec'd torque. It could be that > the one who loctited the bolt also wimped out on the torque, relying on the > loctite to hold the bolt. (Not good practice, but it happens.) Sure.
> I'm completely undecided on this debate. This is a healthy position in which to be, AFAIC.
TeGGeR® - 08 Nov 2005 04:19 GMT > What muddies the comparison is that the cars were both old enough to > have been through at least one timing belt change, so we don't know [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I'm completely undecided on this debate. A representative of Bolt Science Ltd, a bona fide expert company in these matters, has told me specifically that it is "somewhat improbable" that the bolt turns in more once torqued.
A quote from an email: "Much more likely is that a change in the friction conditions in the thread and under the bolt head as occurred." (to explain why it apparently gets tighter in use).
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karl - 30 Nov 2005 01:31 GMT > From: "alt.autos.honda group" <noreply@googlegroups.com> > Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 19:06:41 +0000 [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > on the loctite to hold the bolt. (Not good practice, but it > happens.) This is a crucial point. Not only is unknown whether the timing belt changes were done correctly but it is also unknown where the parts came from. Therefore, all the provided "evidence" is worthless and cannot be used in an objective evaluation.
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