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Car Forum / Honda Cars / November 2005Timing belt snappage on 99 civic
Hi All My sisters (poorly maintained) 99 civic with 165000kms has recently snapped the timing belt. Thought I would add some ammunition to the OEM vs nonOEM parts debate. The belt has 60000kms on it. Its made by Goodyear. Its 3 years old. We are located in Winnipeg. And its not even cold yet. Not only did it possibly ruin the valve train, it took the lower timing cover and the CYL Crank Angle sensor with it. (And they want to charge $300 for the sensor alone!) Total bill to put it back together = $700 at the dealership. Then we get to crank it over and see if the valves are bent. Sounds a.s backwards to me, I told my bro-in law to suggest doing the clearance checks on the valves as is, but the dealership told him that wouldn't work. Any ideas out there regarding this? Also does 3 bills for that sensor sound right? What about the valve clearance check? Its not my car, so I am just doing this for info purposes. I drive a (much better maintained) 98 civic with 236000kms on it. Thanks in advance. t > Hi All > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Thanks in advance. > t -------------------------------------- Dealerships typically lack IMAGINATION. They could have just turned the cams over by hand and checked the valve clearances to see it any of them were about 5 X normal. They should posses a scope for looking down the spark plug holes to see if there's any shredded valves sitting in there too. The person who installed the Goodyear belt must have over tightened it, or the idler pulley was shot (terribly rare for only a '99). You may need to find your sister a better private mechanic . . Shouldn't be hard in WPG. 'Curly' I have been designated the 'private mechanic', I tell them what needs doing, they say they don't have the money. Its lead to some heated arguments. They've been driving around for the last year or so with a noisy rear hub and the check engine light on. very frustrating. oh ya, and by the way i didn't do the timing belt job on this, it was done (according to the dealer) befoer the car was purchased. So I wasn't worried about it. I know better now, and will check the t-belt tension more regularly on any hondas i am working on. t >> Hi All >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >'Curly' By the way, The dealer expressed reservations on doing the check by turning the cam over by hand. He said the valves would hit the pistons and you'd only be able to turn it so far. Having never tried this I was in no position to argue. Any feedback? thanks t >> Hi All >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >'Curly' > By the way, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > thanks ------------------------ Dealer is a DROID. You would make sure the pistons are all at 'half-mast' first, so you're free to turn the cams all you want. Since the TB is broken anyway, you can . . . . It's a waste of finger movement to try to explain this. What did I say??? Some dealers have NO IMAGINATION. Totally unable to think outside the BOX. Hire some mechanic who thinks like an old farmer to do your work, they know the EXCEPTIONS, and laugh at the RULES. It will also cost less, probably. 'Curly' >>By the way, >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > the TB is broken anyway, you can . . . . It's a waste of finger > movement to try to explain this. lol! > What did I say??? Some dealers have NO IMAGINATION. Totally unable to > think outside the BOX. Hire some mechanic who thinks like an old farmer > to do your work, they know the EXCEPTIONS, and laugh at the RULES. It > will also cost less, probably. it's all about money. it takes 20 minutes to figure it out by turning the cam and measuring the lash. it takes a couple of hours, gaskets, and a whole bunch of cash to take the head off. a dealer's gotta pay the rent don'tcha know... > 'Curly' > it's all about money. it takes 20 minutes to figure it out by turning the > cam and measuring the lash. it takes a couple of hours, gaskets, and a > whole bunch of cash to take the head off. a dealer's gotta pay the rent > don'tcha know... > >> 'Curly' A kinder (wussier) way of putting it is that professionals have to be careful about placing bets. We as owners can pursue the least expensive opportunities for repair, like replacing brushes in motors. Professionals have to choose approaches that won't blow up in their faces. Mike >>it's all about money. it takes 20 minutes to figure it out by turning the >>cam and measuring the lash. it takes a couple of hours, gaskets, and a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Mike i'm with you on that, but in this instance, you can diagnose a bent valve no better with the head off than on. in fact, it's /easier/ [and more accurate] with the head on. > My sisters (poorly maintained) 99 civic with 165000kms has recently snapped > the timing belt. Thought I would add some ammunition to the OEM vs nonOEM [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Its not my car, so I am just doing this for info purposes. I drive a (much > better maintained) 98 civic with 236000kms on it. Just watch the idle and do a compression test. But some damages could still be hidden. As part of my ritual, the non-genuine belt should be replace before the expected date. If there's any sign of oil on them they should be replaced *immediately.* Genuine belts can soak up oil and can last as much as a month on a well lubricated cam. I've seen it. What types of damage could still be hidden? I would imagine anything wrong with the valvetrain's moving parts would make a big klacking noise. Or lower compression on a cylinder that isn't getting a good seal on the valve seat. Any other ideas? t >> My sisters (poorly maintained) 99 civic with 165000kms has recently snapped >> the timing belt. Thought I would add some ammunition to the OEM vs nonOEM [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >*immediately.* Genuine belts can soak up oil and can last as much as a >month on a well lubricated cam. I've seen it. "TO L via CarKB.com" <u10197@uwe> wrote in message news:57f27c9286b15@uwe... >Sounds a.s backwards to me, I told my bro-in law to suggest doing the >clearance checks on the valves as is, but the dealership told him that >wouldn't work. It seems pretty easy to check the valve clearance; even without a feeler gauge. Sounds like she needs an honest mechanic. > What types of damage could still be hidden? I would imagine anything wrong > with the valvetrain's moving parts would make a big klacking noise. Or lower > compression on a cylinder that isn't getting a good seal on the valve seat. Head, valves, rocker arms, pistons, block and misc parts are some things to think about. > does 3 bills for that sensor sound right? [$300 (canadian?) for the CYL crank angle sensor on a 1999 Civic, 165000 km] So that's about $257 American and about 102,000 miles. The crank angle TDC/CYL sensors are installed on the distributor housing, so what they're doing (rightly, assuming the CYL sensor really is damaged) is replacing the whole distributor housing. Online OEM parts sites sell the housing for this Civic for about $233 American. A little more for labor sounds quite fair. The shop will switch over the old ignitor, coil, cap, and rotor to the new housing. Though you should consider a new cap and rotor at this point if your sis does not maintain this car well. The better news is that replacing the housing anyway for a car with this many miles is not a terrible idea. The bearing on it often fails with age. (Well, it could last another 100k miles, too.) From my reading here and my own experience, many Honda owners end up with a new housing at some point in the mid-life of the car, though not due to the accident your sister's car had. An independent shop "determined" that the cause of some non-start problems my 91 Civic was having around 140k miles was the way I had jury rigged the rotor to the distributor shaft. They told me the car needed a new distributor housing to replace the jury-rig fix, etc. Their diagnosis was wrong: about ten days later the car stalled again, and they found the problem was actually the ignition coil. Whence we had a few firm talk-through-your-teeth-and-try-to-keep-things-friendly words. But in hindsight, after reading more here, the new housing probably spared me problems further down the road. If you're a junkyard addict, you can quite possibly get a real deal on a distributor housing. Like you and others say, though, the bigger question is whether the valves were bent. I'd be talking to another shop to ask them what would be necessary to identify this, as I agree what this first shop is saying sounds fishy. Also, if this first shop is the one that put in the belt... I am a pretty big OEM parts proponent these days (after learning the hard way a few times), but I don't recall seeing at online fora who makes Hondas T belts or any controversy over them. I am kinda doubting Goodyear being the maker had anything to do with this. Elle, this sensor is not on the distributor housing, its right in the path of the timing belt under the timing belt cover. In the shop manual, they call it the Crankshaft Speed Fluctuation Sensor. I haven't been able to find it on any of the parts websites out there including Majestic and San Leandro Honda websites, or any after market ones. I have a JPEG of the affected part for clarity, but don't have anywhere to post it. How do I send it to you? t >> does 3 bills for that sensor sound right? > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] >T belts or any controversy over them. I am kinda doubting Goodyear being the >maker had anything to do with this. > Elle, this sensor is not on the distributor housing, its right in the path of > the timing belt under the timing belt cover. In the shop manual, they call > it the Crankshaft Speed Fluctuation Sensor. So, to clarify, did your first post have it wrong? Because you originally said it was the crank angle CYL sensor that the shop said needed to be replaced (though granted this is nowhere near the lower timing belt cover). > I haven't been able to find it > on any of the parts websites out there including Majestic and San Leandro > Honda websites, or any after market ones. > > I have a JPEG of the affected part for clarity, but don't have anywhere to > post it. How do I send it to you? Feel free to mail it to honda.lioness@earthlink.net I guess you already know that Majestic's and SLHonda's drawings and lists of items can be a little tricky. But I'll give it a shot, if you'd like some help. I do not think my 91 Civic has this sensor, so my own manual won't help. Meanwhile, I'll google a bit. Always fun to learn more. Yes original post referred to the wrong sensor. In the manual its referred to as a CKF sensor, not the CYL sensor. My mistake. Google had frustratingly little to yield on searches like "civic CKF" "civic crank sensor" etc.... I sent you the page from the manual that shows what I mean from my gmail account. t >> Elle, this sensor is not on the distributor housing, its right in the path of >> the timing belt under the timing belt cover. In the shop manual, they call [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >Meanwhile, I'll google a bit. Always fun to learn more. This sensor is under "oil pump-oil strainer" at slhonda.com and Majestic, because it's mounted on the oil pump. There are two CKF sensors listed there, so that's confusing. From the drawing you sent, I think you have the lower priced one, at about $28 at Majestic, plus shipping/handling. The more expensive one is about $90. Either way, what the shop wants to charge you must be mostly the labor for getting into the TB. Presumably a new TB will be put on anyway, so ISTM at first blush all they should pretty much charge you for is the part price, then charge you for putting in the TB. (I googled for "CKF sensor," because that's what the drawing you sent called it. That turned up more info and helped me to find it at slhonda etc.) > Yes original post referred to the wrong sensor. In the manual its referred > to as a CKF sensor, not the CYL sensor. My mistake. [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > Message posted via CarKB.com > http://www.carkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/honda-cars/200511/1 I spoke with another local dealership, he mentioned that there was a change mid-year on that model, so maybe that is why there are 2 sensors listed. Geez, high taxes and getting ripped off at the dealership. Maybe my free healthcare can make up for some of that, but I'm never sick! :) t >This sensor is under "oil pump-oil strainer" at slhonda.com >and Majestic, because it's mounted on the oil pump. There [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> > >> >Meanwhile, I'll google a bit. Always fun to learn more. |
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