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Car Forum / Honda Cars / December 2005Does a car rust quicker, garaged
Here in the western New York we use salt on are snow covered roads. True or False. Driving daily and garaging your car. Does a car rust quicker if garaged with the salt slush and moisture on it (dripping on the floor)? Or is it better to keep the car outside the garage in the natural frozen winter elements? Of course the driver does routine maintenance on the vehicle. Maybe even a few commercial (undercarriage rinse) car washes from time to time… Has there been any studies done? Will it matter if the garage floor is epoxy coated or natural concrete? Insulated and unheated garage and other combos... TP The only issue I can think of is that if the garage is heated and if there is some humidity in the air, this will add to the rusting process on the car. Other than that, I do not think there is any real difference if its garaged or not. I'm not sure what the floor of the garage has to do with it either. > Here in the western New York we use salt on are snow covered > roads. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > concrete? > Insulated and unheated garage and other combos... The principal governing factor is that the chemical reaction occurs more quickly at higher temperatures. That argues against garaging and especially against heated garaging. Other factors are second-order. If epoxying the floor allows you to clear out the slush often, that's good; else the difference is negligible during the winter. However, the salt absorbed into an untreated cement floor will have a small effect when the car is garaged wet in the summertime. Some years ago I read that Rochester (western NY, for our distant readers) uses 7% of all the road salt in the US. To me that's a jaw-dropper. I wish I'd saved the newspaper article so I could attribute it here. Brent I would think they're two issues as far as an unheated garage. First humidity would be higher as vapor would not be chased off and outgas as readily as in heat, result is comparitively higher humidity over a longer period of time but at slightly cooler termperatures. Second retention of water even if the floor is coated by definition is higher as it is a "closed environment" My two cents.... Doc I believe it. I live near there, and they salt like it's going out of style. Really amazing, and all the vehicles rust out rapidly.  SignatureChristopher A. Young Do good work. It's longer in the short run but shorter in the long run. . . In article <wojkf.93920$JQ.82006@twister.nyroc.rr.com>, TP <to2000ny2000nospam@nospamyahoo.com> wrote: > Here in the western New York we use salt on are snow covered > roads. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > concrete? > Insulated and unheated garage and other combos... The principal governing factor is that the chemical reaction occurs more quickly at higher temperatures. That argues against garaging and especially against heated garaging. Other factors are second-order. If epoxying the floor allows you to clear out the slush often, that's good; else the difference is negligible during the winter. However, the salt absorbed into an untreated cement floor will have a small effect when the car is garaged wet in the summertime. Some years ago I read that Rochester (western NY, for our distant readers) uses 7% of all the road salt in the US. To me that's a jaw-dropper. I wish I'd saved the newspaper article so I could attribute it here. Brent > Here in the western New York we use salt on are snow covered roads. > True or False. Driving daily and garaging your car. Does a car rust [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > TP In general chemical reactions occur more rapidly with higher temperatures than they do at lower temps. So, if the garage keeps the vehicle warmer then it would be if left outside then the answer is probably yes. John I've never seen any authority on this, but I would agree with John, that it would be worse in a heated garage. Not only do many chemical reactions occur faster at higher temps, but when you melt the ice/salt/slush, I would think it would give it more opportunity to get into cracks, crevices, etc. If you kept it cold and frozen till it could be washed off, I would think that would be better. And the other question is, how much difference does it really make, as compared to the other benefits of having the car garaged, ie warmer/easier start so less wear on the engine, more comfy, no frozen doors, windshield ice, etc. > Here in the western New York we use salt on are snow covered > roads. > True or False. Driving daily and garaging your car. Does a car > rust quicker if garaged with the salt slush and moisture on it > (dripping on the floor)? Or is it better to keep the car outside > the garage in the natural frozen winter elements? Rust happens only above a certain temperature. Below that, it won't. If you garage the car, the more likely it is that you'll hit that temperature. > Here in the western New York we use salt on are snow covered roads. > True or False. Driving daily and garaging your car. Does a car rust [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > TP warm, salty, wet - bad combo for cars. > Here in the western New York we use salt on are snow covered > roads. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > TP There is no one simple answer. Below the freezing point no rusting will occur, so outside may well reduce the rust. Driving a car into a garage means the warm car will warm the garage and stay warm longer allowing more damage. Outside being cold does not bother the car, but it can slow rust. In real life there is not that much of a difference. SignatureJoseph Meehan Dia duit Reason for rusting includes humidity trapped in places where rust then occurs. In he garage, those spaces would dry - rust process halted. Even better is to rinse salt out of those spaces with water - not the salt recycled water found in car washed. What does a car wash do? Wash that salt into places you don't want it. But more important is to get those 'deep inside' places dry. > Here in the western New York we use salt on are snow covered > roads. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > TP "Even better is to rinse salt out of those spaces with water - not the salt recycled water found in car washed. What does a car wash do? Wash that salt into places you don't want it. " Now this is an interesting point of discussion. I've wondered about this. Does a decent car wash have anything in it's water recycling system to remove salt from the water? Do they at least use clean water for the rinse? If not, I wonder how high the salt concentration would get and how long after the last application of road salt it would be before the car wash had eliminated most of it from the water in use? Its funny that no one here has really hit the nail on the head on this one yet. Increasing the number of freeze-thaw cycles over a car's life along with the presence of moisture (and compounded by corrosion- inducing ions found in road salt) will certainly accelerate the pace of rusting. The moisture gets into seams and beneath undercoating and dirt and paint (even in microscopic size locations) and then freezes (which expands, causing minute but detrimental movements in the metal and paint bonding) and then thaws and allows the moisture-salt solution into even more new new places to repeat the process is what does the damage over time. And by the way, a high pressure car wash in the winter will force that corrosive solution deeper into the seams and nooks and crannies and can do more harm than good. Worse yet, some car washes use water that has been recycled several times and has a very concentrated salt solution from everybody elses car before you use it - shooting this stuff all under your car a few times every winter is really asking for it. Sounds funny, but if you suspect recycled water after the carwash owner denies it, taste it for saltiness (have a bottle of good water handy to rinse afterwards in any case!) > "Even better is to rinse salt out of those > spaces with water - not the salt recycled water found in car [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > get and how long after the last application of road salt it would be > before the car wash had eliminated most of it from the water in use? > And by the way, a high pressure car wash in the winter will force that > corrosive solution deeper into the seams and nooks and crannies and can do [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > for saltiness (have a bottle of good water handy to rinse afterwards in > any case!) I think that it would be a bit safer and easier to just use an ohm meter. Recycled water with a high ion concentration should have considerably lower resistance. It might also save you from consuming a mouthful of hydrocarbons, antifreeze, and who knows what. Eric > Its funny that no one here has really hit the nail on the head on > this one yet. I think the real "nail" here is how old of a car are we talking about? I haven't seen rust on any car that was less than 10 years old for a long time. Who actually worries about rust any more other than those that have "vintage" vehicles? Keeping cars looking newer longer these days is almost entirely a matter of avoiding dings and dents and keeping the paint from fading/oxidizing. Rust is simply not the issue any more. About the only time a newer car is going to rust is after it has been damaged in a manner that exposes bare metal. > I think the real "nail" here is how old of a car are we talking about? I > haven't seen rust on any car that was less than 10 years old for a long time. > Who actually worries about rust any more other than those that have "vintage" > vehicles? I've seen some late 90s Chevy Cavaliers and Malibus with moderate rust along the edges of the doors and trunk lid. > > Its funny that no one here has really hit the nail on the head on > > this one yet. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > simply not the issue any more. About the only time a newer car is going to rust > is after it has been damaged in a manner that exposes bare metal. Chuckle. Which side of salt line do YOU live on? Yes, they are a lot better than they used to be, but I still see a lot of speckles on 3-5 year old rides around here. See my other post for details. And no, I don't lose sleep over it- rust never sleeps, and is just a cost of doing business here in the frozen north. One of many reasons I don't buy new, so the relative cost of the rust to me is much lower. About once a year, I give the brown spots a quick'n'dirty with the wire wheel and spray can, and at most a little Bondo on the wheel arches. It gets bad enough to make the car unsafe, I just replace the car. aem sends... > > > Its funny that no one here has really hit the nail on the head on > > > this one yet. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > aem sends... I live in the midwest (MO) so we do see plenty of snow and salt on the roads though I'm sure not as much as more northern areas. Perfect example is my mother-in-law's car which we just inherited. This is a 94 Mecury Topaz that was washed every time nature rained on it, was never garaged or even under a car-port and a few years ago went through a severe hail storm that beat the living crap out of it. The car looks (and drives) like hell, but I would be hard-pressed to find any rust on it. If I had to worry about rust in only 3 to 5 years I suppose I would opt for a car with plastic body panels. >> Rust is >> > simply not the issue any more. About the only time a newer car is >> > going to rust is after it has been damaged in a manner that exposes >> > bare metal. One of my cars is going on 16 years. No visible rust but there are some spots underneath on the chassis starting to go. I'm debating on whether or not to replace the original exhaust though as it is starting to rust out. I'm getting rid of the car in about 5 months. At that time it will have about no re-sale value to speak of so I'm trying to "use it up" this winter and then give it away. Engine is as good as new performance wise after 145,000 miles. My other car is an '01 and has no signs of rust either. I'll probably keep that one another 10 years or so also. You don't need to be in the salted road areas to have rust. Some of the worst undercarriage rust occurs where a vehicle is parked on grass or dirt. Those brake lines go pretty quick. Air moving under a car to dry it out helps in summer and winter. The answer is definitly yes. Case in point. 1999 Isuzu Trooper, always garaged. 35,000 miles, four months over warranty, exhaust from cat back, warranty denied, $1200 for Isuzu parts on line. 51,000 miles, fuel tank-fuel pump-sending unit, all rusted beyond repair. $1450 to repair at closest garage.No Isuzu dealers in sight, they dropped the line. Closest dealer offered to check the leak for $100 but assured me there would be no warranty as did Isuzu corporate.. I think no more Jap cars. Three new Maximas, one new Toyota, probably five other new cars but never a money pit like this. Ron > The answer is definitly yes. Case in point. 1999 Isuzu Trooper, always > garaged. 35,000 miles, four months over warranty, exhaust from cat [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Ron This is VERY true. It is the heating, sweating and melting in a garge for engine heat that greatly increases rusting. My wifes 200 cherokee has never been garge kept and it does not have any rust on it or under it yet and we live in the salt belt too. I found out by accident about 30 years ago. WHen my parents moved to the country they did not have a garage for several years (out buildings but no close garage) and they left their cars out. Prior to moving there by dad's car would start showing rust after about 2 years from new when being garage kept but when kept out side it was still pretty much rust free after 5 years and 170K miles and it was not form improved factory protection either. >And by the way, a high pressure car wash in the winter will force that >corrosive solution deeper into the seams and nooks and crannies and can do >more harm than good. I've heard this before, but think it's over-rated. The water is hitting flat pieces of sheetmetal and bouncing off. Some gets into panel gaps. I don't see any real "forcing" of water into strange places any different from where rain-water would drip. Plus, those "hidden" places aren't what's going to rust first. What's going to rust first are areas where the paint has been damaged by rocks and sand. > >And by the way, a high pressure car wash in the winter will force that > >corrosive solution deeper into the seams and nooks and crannies and can do [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > rust first are areas where the paint has been damaged by rocks and > sand. That hasn't been my experience, across 30-some rusty beaters. First to go is the wrap-around weld on the door and hatch edges (especially on fords), followed closely by the wheel arches where salt-laden crud and sand gets jammed against the inside of the steel, after sneaking past the fender liner. Certain AMCs and Chryslers from a few years ago had a big problem with the front fenders- there was an actual ledge in there where salt-laden sand would be packed against the inside of the top of the fender, and stay there till you cleaned it out by hand. With due respect to Japanese cars, which I own one of and basically love, I don't see many older ones around here that aren't totally bananna-spotted with rust. Guess they don't salt back home in Japan, so the engineers didn't spec coated steel or whatever. Now that many/most are made here in NA, maybe that has changed. I'v had some luck, in years I wasn't too lazy, with saturating the door edges and under the hood with cheap spray wax mixed with hot water. Sorta like the shipping wax the manufacturers used to use. Gotta do this in the fall before the weather turns, however, and it is pretty easy to forget in the rush of real life. But having said all that- I still get the cars bottom-washed whenever there is a thaw, if it lasts long enough for the lines to die down. And now that I have a garage (non-heated, but house leakage probably keeps it barely below freezing at worst), not scraping the glass in the mornings is worth the increased rust of the temp cycling to me. Neither of my current heaps is anywhere near collectible, and I drive the rusty one when the roads are white. I doubt it makes a significant difference- if sun comes out on a snowy day, greenhouse effect gets my car hot enough to melt off all the snow anyway. Very annoying to come out at 1700, and the doors are frozen from refrozen meltoff. (Also been too lazy to silicone the weatherstrip the last few years...) aem sends... >> >And by the way, a high pressure car wash in the winter will force that >> >corrosive solution deeper into the seams and nooks and crannies and can [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >jammed against the inside of the steel, after sneaking past the fender >liner. Well, your scenario #2 there is what I said. >(snip) >With due respect to Japanese cars, >which I own one of and basically love, I don't see many older ones around >here that aren't totally bananna-spotted with rust. Guess they don't salt >back home in Japan, so the engineers didn't spec coated steel or whatever. >Now that many/most are made here in NA, maybe that has changed. Doesn't matter where they are made. AFAIK, starting in the early 90's all the major Japanese makers "got with the program" for corrosion protection. I know my '92 Prelude did quite well... > "Even better is to rinse salt out of those > spaces with water - not the salt recycled water found in car [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > system to remove salt from the water? Do they at least use clean water > for the rinse? Most use clean water for everything. "Most use clean water for everything. " Is this true? I'm pretty sure the local one uses recycled water. And unless water was free or really cheap, I would think most would recycle at least the wash water? > "Most use clean water for everything. " > > Is this true? I'm pretty sure the local one uses recycled water. And > unless water was free or really cheap, I would think most would recycle > at least the wash water? I work for an environmental company, and have done clean up at a few local washes cleaning out the traps. All fresh. > > "Most use clean water for everything. " > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > All fresh. i agree, i've been there as well (in the south) always been municipal water into a holding tank of some sort, that fed the pumps, some times with water softners to help soap and wax treatments do their jobs easier and of course prevent spotting etc.. the water drained to sewer, all the crud stuck in the PIT, when the PIT was full the crud stayed and the bays just flooded definately would not want recylced water shooting on my car. >> Does a car rust quicker, garaged I don't know but if you look at it long enough I think the process slows down considerably. >>> Does a car rust quicker, garaged > >I don't know but if you look at it long enough I think the process >slows down considerably. Indeed. Cars do rust "quicker" if they're not maintained. Ie washed etc. Signaturegburnore at DataBasix dot Com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- How you look depends on where you go. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gary L. Burnore | ÝÛ³ºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³³Ýۺݳ޳ºÝ³Ý³Þ³ºÝ³ÝÝÛ³ | ÝÛ³ºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³³Ýۺݳ޳ºÝ³Ý³Þ³ºÝ³ÝÝÛ³ Official .sig, Accept no substitutes. | ÝÛ³ºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³³Ýۺݳ޳ºÝ³Ý³Þ³ºÝ³ÝÝÛ³ | ÝÛ 0 1 7 2 3 / Ý³Þ 3 7 4 9 3 0 Û³ Black Helicopter Repair Services, Ltd.| Official Proof of Purchase =========================================================================== > Here in the western New York we use salt on are snow covered roads. > True or False. Driving daily and garaging your car. Does a car rust [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Will it matter if the garage floor is epoxy coated or natural concrete? > Insulated and unheated garage and other combos... Here in Montreal'surbs we get even more salt than you do... CW says keep the car away from heated garages. There may be an electrical effect if the garage floor is bare concrete (which does conduct) and this might affect rusting. Might not. I kept one Accord in an appartment garage many years ago and it did not have any effect that I could tell ... there was a little rust after 8 years. I did wash the car every couple weeks, however and that surely helped (though not underneath). I sometimes put my car in my garage in the winter, but I've blocked off the heat so the temp is usually just below freezing. The best is an unheated garage. That keeps the snow off. If it's really cold, use a block heater for an hour before you use the car in the morning and it heats up pretty quick afterwards. White cars seem to rust quickest. I believe it's because moisture behind the panels stays longer whereas darker colours heat up in the sun and evaporate the moisture quicker. Cheers, Alan I live on Long Island, NY. We use a nice mix of 30% salt and the rest sand. Yeah our cars rust nicely and all turn white when we drive in the winter (hint, its not the snow that makes the cars white) I have a 92 sentra that has always been garaged. What I found is that between the cars I own (altima and infiniti) the 92 sentra which was always garaged DOES show very little rust on it. The other cars are newer and do have more corrosion on the undercarage. Just my 2 cents. Tom The speed of corrosion is increased with temperature. The theory is you drive in salty roads and then when garaged the vehicle is subjected to above freezing temperatures and allows more corrosion. When salt spray tests are performed the temperatures are elevated to promote corrosion to speed up testing. I do not know if being garaged will in fact be worse but I guess it could. The fact is a warmer vehicle vs. a colder vehicle with the same corrosion environment will corrode faster where it can. Tom >I live on Long Island, NY. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Tom |
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