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Car Forum / Honda Cars / January 2006What Honda Needs to Do To Keep A Strong Position in the US Market
#1, install reliable automatic transmission in their vehicles and extend the automatic transmission warranty to at least 100,000 miles for all years, all models. #2, Make good looking vehicles. The Ridgeline is plug ugly. Most other current Honda models are in the barely acceptable category. Honda seems to have no workable design language for it's current US lineup and is loosing sales as a result. Honda was up 4% in the US last year. Toyota was up 10%. Nissan was up 9%. Hyundai was up 9% on the year and 16% in December. Honda's December sales were down 3%. Toyota December sales were up 9%. Trend wise, Honda is falling off the pace while Toyota and Hyundai are pulling strong. I see Toyota and Hyundai as the real competition for Honda in the US market today. Hyundai has pulled itself up by the bootstraps into the first tier of auto manufacturers in historically record time. All data is from: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060105/ap_on_bi_ge/auto_sales Honda management seems to be loosing it's way in recent years on certain quality control issues and on styling. An insular culture and corporate arrogance are what brought GM down in the long haul. Honda had better watch out for the same problem. John Try driving a Oddesey or new Civic hybrid and report back. > #1, install reliable automatic transmission in their vehicles and extend > the automatic transmission warranty to at least 100,000 miles for all [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > John > #2, Make good looking vehicles. The Ridgeline is plug ugly. Most > other current Honda models are in the barely acceptable category. I like almost all of the Honda's looks. Yeah, Ridgeline's kind of ugly. Reminds me of GM's half pickups. Do you include Acuras in the list? Acuras look pretty nice too. The new Civic looks great. On the other hand, I dislike almost all of Toyota's car looks: Corolla, Camry, Solara, Prius. Why they stopped using amber rear turn signals is beyond me.... I was behind a new Accord that had its turn signal flashing -- but I had to look two or three times to be sure that's what was happening. Of course, for those who don't USE turn signals, well.... never mind. ;-) > Why they stopped using amber rear turn signals is beyond me.... What are they, white now? I think that's just the trend in the auto industry. >> Why they stopped using amber rear turn signals is beyond me.... > > What are they, white now? I think that's just the trend in the auto > industry. No, they're red, and far less visible than they ever were before. *I* need to see what drivers' intentions are. "Foreign" manufacturers were the leader in this important safety issue; apparently some, like Honda, don't give a rat's a.s anymore. Besides, design-wise, the new taillights look awful. I know, there's no accounting for taste. >>>Why they stopped using amber rear turn signals is beyond me.... >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > rat's a.s anymore. Besides, design-wise, the new taillights look awful. I > know, there's no accounting for taste. I thought it was funny that Honda redesigned the rear of the Accord for '06. Personally i think that the rear of my '03 is better looking than is the front! John >>> Why they stopped using amber rear turn signals is beyond me.... >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >in this important safety issue; apparently some, like Honda, don't give a >rat's a.s anymore Hardly a 'leader in an issue' - Amber turn signals are required on all vehicles in europe, and despite what many think, the european car market is bigger than the American one - UK, france, germany spain = USa, ireland = canada, then you have portugal, italy, etc. When cops in the Uk are in a strict mood (say around a 'cruise' they'll get you for fog-lghts, and if you've got red indicators 9or white, when applied) you've evither got the choise of fixing it without moving the vehicle, or towing it, since technically its unroadworthy (UK drivers tend not to look for red turn signals0 and often they'll tear up your MOt certificate, and force you to get another. >. Besides, design-wise, the new taillights look awful. I >know, there's no accounting for taste. Its to do with joe schmoe, and what he thinks is nice. just look at TV, and you'll see just how much taste the average american is deemed to ahve. >>#2, Make good looking vehicles. The Ridgeline is plug ugly. Most >>other current Honda models are in the barely acceptable category. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > On the other hand, I dislike almost all of Toyota's car looks: Corolla, > Camry, Solara, Prius. The present Acura line is pretty decent looking. Hondas, however, are all over the place. The new Civic is alright and the Accord is decent, but the Ridgeline, Pilot and Element are all certainly nothing to write home about. John Make a new CRX and a new Prelude,at reasonable prices,with reasonable horsepower. Also,Mazda makes their very popular Miata,and Honda's S2000 is far higher in price. Honda needs to look at what the "tuners" are doing with older Hondas and other makes of autos;that's what the younger crowd wants to buy. Instead,their products keep getting bigger and bigger,heavier,more and more "same as everybody else".  SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net >Make a new CRX and a new Prelude,at reasonable prices,with reasonable >horsepower. >Also,Mazda makes their very popular Miata,and Honda's S2000 is far higher >in price. the new MX5 (aka miata) is even better than the old one. shold be comming stateside in a year or two. >Honda needs to look at what the "tuners" are doing with older Hondas and >other makes of autos;that's what the younger crowd wants to buy. > >Instead,their products keep getting bigger and bigger,heavier,more and more >"same as everybody else". >Make a new CRX and a new Prelude,at reasonable prices,with reasonable >horsepower. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Instead,their products keep getting bigger and bigger,heavier,more and more >"same as everybody else". What I would like is a station wagon the size of a Volvo 240 with performance suspension and drive train. >>Make a new CRX and a new Prelude,at reasonable prices,with reasonable >>horsepower. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > What I would like is a station wagon the size of a Volvo 240 with > performance suspension and drive train. Sign me up for that one! It really ticks me off that there are so few good mid-sized wagon available on the US market. For overall versatility, comfort, performance and economy nothing beats a mid-sized wagon. John >>Make a new CRX and a new Prelude,at reasonable prices,with reasonable >>horsepower. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >What I would like is a station wagon the size of a Volvo 240 with >performance suspension and drive train. V70? the T5 and R not 'performance' enough? >>>Make a new CRX and a new Prelude,at reasonable prices,with reasonable >>>horsepower. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > the T5 and R not 'performance' enough? Most people who buy station wagons do not want "performance",they want to haul their kids around. Honda used to make a station wagon Accord,and sales were not good enough to keep making them.Same for Toyota. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net >>>>Make a new CRX and a new Prelude,at reasonable prices,with reasonable >>>>horsepower. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >Honda used to make a station wagon Accord,and sales were not good enough to >keep making them.Same for Toyota. Oh, they're still made, just not sold in the Us. Big Difference >>>Make a new CRX and a new Prelude,at reasonable prices,with reasonable >>>horsepower. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >the T5 and R not 'performance' enough? Not sure if its as big as the old Volvo, but anyway I am looking for Japanese reliability. >>>>Make a new CRX and a new Prelude,at reasonable prices,with reasonable >>>>horsepower. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >Not sure if its as big as the old Volvo, but anyway I am looking for >Japanese reliability. I have had volvos for years, mainly european 340s and 360s. The V70s are not quite as big as the old 240 estate certainly not the current model, the older one (96-01 iirc) is bigger, but its basically the 760 refined a bit more. They're reliable if kept maintained (except for some of the XCs) British and european polie ofrces use the V70 as their prefered pursuit car, and those do heavy duty on constant swapped shifts - 130k miles a year is average for them, often in high pursuit (delimited, a t5 will do somewhere in the region of 160mph) only place something else is prefered is for inner-city pursuits, where the imprezta (often worked on by prodrive) rules, which are tweaked to make traffic humps at 70 doable > Make a new CRX and a new Prelude,at reasonable prices,with reasonable > horsepower. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Instead,their products keep getting bigger and bigger,heavier,more and more > "same as everybody else". Indeed, Honda is a complete non-starter in the sporty coupe market. Even the new Saturn Sky blows away Honda in that category. Who would have thought that Saturn could do a better job than Honda on something ???? John > > Make a new CRX and a new Prelude,at reasonable prices,with reasonable > > horsepower. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > John The Civic SI is an impressive drive in my opinion -- as is the Acura RSX S. And, I will take my 01 Prelude over anything Saturn. BTW local Pontiac dealers are asking close to 30k for 177hp Ecotek Soltice, of which the the Sky is a badge engineered copy >> > Make a new CRX and a new Prelude,at reasonable prices,with >> > reasonable horsepower. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> >> John > The Civic SI is an impressive drive in my opinion -- as is the Acura > RSX S. And, I will take my 01 Prelude over anything Saturn. BTW local > Pontiac dealers are asking close to 30k for 177hp Ecotek Soltice, of > which the the Sky is a badge engineered copy RSX is ugly,it looks like an over-inflated Integra,jacked up six inches. Its front end is garish. Most of "Detroit"s products are overweight and underpowered,and low-tech to boot.And I would not trust their quality or reliability. Honda needs to bring back the Prelude. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net > >> > Make a new CRX and a new Prelude,at reasonable prices,with > >> > reasonable horsepower. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Honda needs to bring back the Prelude. We agree on that -- but it would probably not look like a Prelude if they did. > Make a new CRX and a new Prelude,at reasonable prices,with reasonable > horsepower. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Instead,their products keep getting bigger and bigger,heavier,more and more > "same as everybody else". well said that man!!! similar has been said in the financial press - the day honda abandoned front wishbone suspension in the reasonably priced civic was the day subaru got handed the tuner market on a plate. bring back wishbones! bring back the prelude & crx!!! >> Make a new CRX and a new Prelude,at reasonable prices,with reasonable >> horsepower. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > subaru got handed the tuner market on a plate. bring back wishbones! > bring back the prelude & crx!!! On the other hand, Toyota market share soars despite primitive suspensions and handling. >>>Make a new CRX and a new Prelude,at reasonable prices,with reasonable >>>horsepower. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > On the other hand, Toyota market share soars despite primitive suspensions > and handling. hey, suspension is not the /only/ decision maker for the guy in the street. that's why the above comment is relative to "the tuner market", where it /is/ a factor. >#1, install reliable automatic transmission in their vehicles and extend >the automatic transmission warranty to at least 100,000 miles for all >years, all models. They would lose me as a customer since I wouldn't buy a small/sporty car with an AT. >#2, Make good looking vehicles. The Ridgeline is plug ugly. Most >other current Honda models are in the barely acceptable category. >Honda seems to have no workable design language for it's current US >lineup and is loosing sales as a result. Don't care much what they look like. Agree Ridgeline is butt ugly but I think the whole concept is stupid. >Honda was up 4% in the US last year. Toyota was up 10%. Nissan was up >9%. Hyundai was up 9% on the year and 16% in December. Honda's December [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >the US market today. Hyundai has pulled itself up by the bootstraps >into the first tier of auto manufacturers in historically record time. I suspect that part of the reason Honda sales were down in December was because they sold out of '05s earlier than in '04. >All data is from: >http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060105/ap_on_bi_ge/auto_sales [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >John >>#1, install reliable automatic transmission in their vehicles and extend >>the automatic transmission warranty to at least 100,000 miles for all >>years, all models. > > They would lose me as a customer since I wouldn't buy a small/sporty > car with an AT. Obviously I am not advocating getting rid of the manual tranmission offereings, but for the majority of customers who buy automatic transmissions the darn things should work! >>#2, Make good looking vehicles. The Ridgeline is plug ugly. Most >>other current Honda models are in the barely acceptable category. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Don't care much what they look like. Agree Ridgeline is butt ugly but > I think the whole concept is stupid. Appealing styling is very important to the majority of car buyers, so even if it doesn't matter to you it does matter to the success of the company. >>Honda was up 4% in the US last year. Toyota was up 10%. Nissan was up >>9%. Hyundai was up 9% on the year and 16% in December. Honda's December [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I suspect that part of the reason Honda sales were down in December > was because they sold out of '05s earlier than in '04. I don't believe that at all. By December most of the '05s of all brands were long gone. I spent several weeks helping a friend car shop and there were very few '05s of any sort on any dealer lot for any brand. She did end up choosing an '06 Accord, which was in plentiful supply. The excuse does not hold water. I've driven Honda's since my first Civic back in the early '80s, and I still love the product, but Hyundai is going to give the Japanese manufacturers some serious competition in the future. One thing that is most impressive on all of the new Hyundai's is their fit and finish, and apparent build-quality. On the surface, and after some significant scrutiny, it appears every bit as good as a Honda or Toyota. Now, mechanically . . . I don't know, as I've never owned one before. I'm old enough (59) to remember the yearly progression of quality and market penetration of Honda, Toyota, Nissan, et. al., and I can't help but think Hyundai is mirroring the past Japanese experience. Sort of "deja vu all over again." Only time will tell . . . And wait until the Chinese catch up....... > I've driven Honda's since my first Civic back in the early '80s, and I > still love the product, but Hyundai is going to give the Japanese [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > but think Hyundai is mirroring the past Japanese experience. Sort of > "deja vu all over again." Only time will tell . . . > I've driven Honda's since my first Civic back in the early '80s, and I > still love the product, but Hyundai is going to give the Japanese [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > but think Hyundai is mirroring the past Japanese experience. Sort of > "deja vu all over again." Only time will tell . . . Remember when Hyundai first entered the US market with the Excel? IIRC, its biggest selling point, which got a lot of publicity, was a much lower price for a brand-new car compared to what any other manufacturer was offering, and they sold quite a few cars to people who'd otherwise been considering used cars. I was in the market for a low-priced car at the time, and I have to admit that Hyundai briefly got my attention, but I ultimately opted for a used 1st-gen Prelude instead. Dave >> I've driven Honda's since my first Civic back in the early '80s, and I >> still love the product, but Hyundai is going to give the Japanese [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >the time, and I have to admit that Hyundai briefly got my attention, but >I ultimately opted for a used 1st-gen Prelude instead. A guy where I work bought one back then. He was well paid but cheap. He had a loan on it and he said that he started getting calls from the bank every month asking if he was going to make his loan payment. Apparently, Hyundai buyers of that era turned out to be high credit risks. He drove the car for a long, long time (like I said, he was cheap) and claimed it was very reliable. It did look a little like Swiss cheese by the time he dumped it. Yes, and many people - and the marketplace in general - still equate Hyundai with the Excel. A poor first product offering is hard to overcome. But, their new products are light years aways from that product, just as today's Civic is light years in difference from the original Civic CVCC. w9cw wrote: > Yes, and many people - and the marketplace in general - still equate > Hyundai with the Excel. A poor first product offering is hard to > overcome. But, their new products are light years aways from that > product, just as today's Civic is light years in difference from the > original Civic CVCC. Actually, Hyundai's first North American small car was the Pony. The Excel was the Pony's successor. Yes, and many people - and the marketplace in general - still equate Hyundai with the Excel. A poor first product offering is hard to overcome. But, their new products are light years aways from that product, just as today's Civic is light years in difference from the original Civic CVCC. We have a 2005 Hyundai Santa Fe for a security vehicle in our large restricted development that I drive every night. The fit and finish is definitely not up to Toyota or Honda quality. It is probably half way between them and the American cars. The body creaks bad on dirt roads, the steering system has something definitely wrong with it and lights are out everywhere including the shift panel. Engine rapping is noticeable when it is cold. 26,000 miles. Our development bought it because of the 100,000 mile warranty. > I've driven Honda's since my first Civic back in the early '80s, and I > still love the product, but Hyundai is going to give the Japanese [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > but think Hyundai is mirroring the past Japanese experience. Sort of > "deja vu all over again." Only time will tell . . . > I've driven Honda's since my first Civic back in the early '80s, and I > still love the product, but Hyundai is going to give the Japanese [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > but think Hyundai is mirroring the past Japanese experience. Sort of > "deja vu all over again." Only time will tell . . . I agree with you, Hyundai is the competitor to watch right now. It seems to me that the secondary Japanese brands, which in the US market means everyone except Toyota and Honda, are in for an especially hard bruising as Toyota, Honda and Hyundai battle it out. Fifty years ago the same thing happened when GM and Ford really went to battle. All of the other US makers took it in the shorts and only Chrysler sort of surived that battle. John |
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