 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
Car Forum / Honda Cars / February 2006Alternator Brush Assembly Guidance?
Will people with experience with the alternator brush assembly please examine the bottom-most photo on the site below and tell me if I have correctly identified the "brush holder insulator"? http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id14.html I did an oil change Monday and decided to explore a little while I was under there, in preparation for the big pre-emptive, brush assembly changeout in the next year or so. Unfortunately, moving from various drawings to the actual alternator, and being in a hurry as it was getting dark, I got confused and didn't actually put my fingers on the two screws said to hold the brush assembly in place. If one gets this far (end cover off, but alternator still mounted), is it really a piece of cake? Looks like a somewhat tough angle for getting any serious torque on the two screws. > Will people with experience with the alternator brush > assembly please examine the bottom-most photo on the site > below and tell me if I have correctly identified the "brush > holder insulator"? > > http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id14.html Yes. It's a soft silicone rubber. Mine was orange. It's very easily torn, I discovered (oops), so you have to be very careful pulling it out of its recess. And I actually removed all the nuts from the underside of the car. Access was too hard from up top in my car. Two important notes when reassembling: Sand ALL electrical connections bright before rejoining, and DO NOT overtighten! You will break something! > I did an oil change Monday and decided to explore a little > while I was under there, in preparation for the big [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > somewhat tough angle for getting any serious torque on the > two screws. It is. If the screws are rusty, it will be a struggle. The best thing to use is a brand-new (stubby) Phillips screwdriver. I say "new" because that way you're assured of the best fit possible and the least chance of stripping. Here's my short writeup after fixing mine in 2002: <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.makers.honda/browse_frm/thread/611d2083 a2bb174c/f963e0cb2ba9d689?lnk=st&q=alternator+brush+group%3Arec.autos.makers.hon da+insubject%3Aintegra+insubject%3Aalternator+author%3Ategger&rnum=1&hl=en#f963e 0cb2ba9d689> My brush fix lasted until last summer, when the stator and commutators corroded together, requiring replacement of the original alternator.  SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ Tegger, how many miles were on your 91 Integra when the stator and commutator gave up? Also, may I incorporate some of your remarks at the site I threw together? I'll put them down as something like "specific anecdotal experience" with this job. Alex and Bob, I'd also like to incorporate some of your remarks at the site, too. Okay? "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote snip but comments noted > My brush fix lasted until last summer, when the stator and > commutators corroded together, requiring replacement of > the original alternator. > Alex and Bob, I'd also like to incorporate some of your > remarks at the site, too. Okay? Fine by me. Thanks for the great site. nb >> Alex and Bob, I'd also like to incorporate some of your >> remarks at the site, too. Okay? > >Fine by me. Thanks for the great site. Sure. ---------- Alex > Tegger, how many miles were on your 91 Integra when the > stator and commutator gave up? About 240,000. Keep in mind the failure was was due only to corrosion. If I lived in a place with better weather, I'd probably still be driving on that alternator. It was charging fine right up to the end. The car sat for two weeks while we were on vacation, which gave corrosion lots of time to close the small gap that remained. If I hadn't let it sit, it may have taken several more months to seize. Also, I made a small error in my reply: It was the *sealing gasket* that was orange silicone and fragile, not the brush holder. You have to carefully remove the *sealing gasket* before the brush holder can be removed. (It appears to have been removed in your photos). > Also, may I incorporate some of your remarks at the site I > threw together? I'll put them down as something like > "specific anecdotal experience" with this job. Go ahead. At the time, I was going to take photos of the job, but the driveway was wet and cold, and it was night-time and snowing. I just wanted to get it over with. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > "Elle" <honda.lioness@earthlink.net> wrote >> Tegger, how many miles were on your 91 Integra when the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > the small gap that remained. If I hadn't let it sit, it may have taken > several more months to seize. Okay. > Also, I made a small error in my reply: It was the *sealing gasket* that > was orange silicone and fragile, not the brush holder. You have to > carefully remove the *sealing gasket* before the brush holder can be > removed. (It appears to have been removed in your photos). I don't know. At the time, I hadn't even figured out where the two screws were for the brush assembly. I didn't take anything from the center area off. I don't see this gasket listed at Majestic's site, so I suppose it comes with the brush holder insulator. Maybe mine was too grimy to be obvious. All the photos at the site were taken after I cleaned the parts up a little. I added some comments from the newsgroup to the site. Thanks for the input, bob, alex, and tegger, as well as the several others of you who have commented on this job in the past year. >> Also, I made a small error in my reply: It was the *sealing gasket* >> that was orange silicone and fragile, not the brush holder. You have [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > screws were for the brush assembly. I didn't take anything from the > center area off. The two screws are under that gasket, as I recall. My brush holder was original, and from 1991. Maybe replacement gaskets (or aftermarket ones) are a different color. > I don't see this gasket listed at Majestic's site, so > I suppose it comes with the brush holder insulator. You'd hope so. They're pretty fragile. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >>> Also, I made a small error in my reply: It was the *sealing gasket* [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > The two screws are under that gasket, as I recall. You must be right. Because of the Majestic or manual drawing of the alternator, I was looking for two horizontally oriented screws, but all I came up with were the ones for what turned out to be the voltage regulator, near the circumference, not the center. >> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >>>> Also, I made a small error in my reply: It was the *sealing gasket* [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > all I came up with were the ones for what turned out to be the voltage > regulator, near the circumference, not the center. They are on either side of the alternator's shaft. This is good, really, because being covered by the gasket means most corrosion is kept away from them. I cannot stress how important it is that your *stubby* Phillips screwdriver be a *perfect* fit in the screws. You need to make sure that you hold the driver straight in line with the screws, and push really hard while turning, to make sure the head doesn't ride up out of the Phillips cross. If it rides out, you may round off the cross enough that removal of the alternator may be the only way to remove the screws. If the only Phillips driver you have is one size too small, DON'T USE IT! Go buy the proper one. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote re the Phillips head screws holding the alternator brush assembly in place: > I cannot stress how important it is that your *stubby* Phillips > screwdriver [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > If the only Phillips driver you have is one size too small, DON'T USE IT! > Go buy the proper one. I have found that slot-end screwdrivers often work better for freeing Phillips head screws. Do you object to such an approach? If so, why? > "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote re the Phillips head screws > holding the alternator brush assembly in place: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I have found that slot-end screwdrivers often work better for freeing > Phillips head screws. Do you object to such an approach? If so, why? You'll see once you get the screws exposed. They are pretty tight, and will release with a snap. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >> The two screws are under that gasket, as I recall. > > You must be right. Not so. Look at the brush assy in this part picture: http://www.maximumautoparts.com/HO_Alternator~Brush~Assy._mo.html You can clearly see the two assy mounting tabs (the little thingies with holes in them) sticking out beyond the "brush holder insulator", that keyhole shaped orange thingie. The reason you can't easily see the screws when the brush assy is mounted on the alternator is because they're both sunken down in between cooling fins and other surrounding junk like the voltage regulator and diode assy. One sits a little further out than the other, but they're both recessed. The screw mounting holes are not holes in the plastic assy housing that run the full length of the assy and put the screw heads out at the outside edge of the brush assy. They are metal tabs, brush contact points, that screw into the rear housing assy and are located at the innermost edge of the brush assy. How wide is the assy housing? About 1 to 1-1/4 inches. Well, that's how deep those tabs sit in from the outside edges of the brush assy. nb > On 2006-02-23, Elle <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > http://www.maximumautoparts.com/HO_Alternator~Brush~Assy._mo.html Hey, nice site and citation! I got to an enlarged view of the actual assembly via http://69.0.158.19/live/F402040927OES.JPG or http://www2.maximumautoparts.com/parts/maximumautoparts/wizard.jsp?year=1991&mak e=HO&model=CVC-DX4-001&category=F&part=Alternator%20Brush%20Assy.&returnurl=null &dp=false >> On 2006-02-23, Elle <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Hey, nice site and citation! Eh, so my memory of them being *under* the gasket was wrong. Four years will do that. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>> On 2006-02-23, Elle <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Eh, so my memory of them being *under* the gasket was wrong. Four years > will do that. NOW I remember why my orange gasket tore! Once I had the screws out, I incautiously pulled the brush holder off its seat, not realizing the bottom of the gasket was going to hook on the shaft and hang up. Pop! SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > NOW I remember why my orange gasket tore! Once I had the screws out, I > incautiously pulled the brush holder off its seat, not realizing the > bottom > of the gasket was going to hook on the shaft and hang up. Pop! I want to double check: This "orange gasket" is not the same as the "brush holder insulator" that the servive manual shows, is it? (I used drawings from the UK Honda site service manuals.) I am asking because the "brush holder insulator" (with the hole such that it goes around the shaft) is orange in the photo from the MaximumAutoParts site that notbob linked earlier. (Then again that site says the photo shows only the brushes, holder, and springs.) I copied the photo to my site at http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id14.html, with a link to Maximum's site. >> NOW I remember why my orange gasket tore! Once I had the screws out, >> I incautiously pulled the brush holder off its seat, not realizing [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > "brush holder insulator" that the servive manual shows, is it? (I used > drawings from the UK Honda site service manuals.) Going from 4 year-old memory here again, so watch out... When I got the screws out, I simply pulled the holder, thinking it was going to pop off. I didn't know at the time that the bottom ring was unbraced by any sort of metal support. When I pulled the top half free, the bottom half stuck in its recess. It stretched, then tore as it came free. I thought I was in trouble, until I realized all I had to do once I got the new brushes on was to stuff the piece back into its recess, which I did, just fine. Once it was back in, it didn't try to fall off again, and the torn ends lined up well. Since you plan on replacing the entire holder, this should not be an issue for you. > I am asking because the "brush holder insulator" (with the hole such > that it goes around the shaft) That was the fragile rubber ring I broke. > is orange in the photo from the > MaximumAutoParts site that notbob linked earlier. So was mine. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > I want to double check: This "orange gasket" is not the same as the "brush > holder insulator" that the servive manual shows, is it? Yes. It is. The orange insulator/gasket/seal, whatever you want to call it, is 3 dimensional and all one piece. It seals on three planes: (1) the large keyhole shaped surface insulates the brush assy from the end plate cover (2) the two parallel strips, which are perpendicular to the keyhole, lie along the edges of the opening in the cast metal tube that surrounds the slip rings (3) the other end of those two strips is just another semi-circular seal, on a plane parallel to the keyhole plane, that fits the opening in the tube between the brush assy and the rear housing. Besides insulation, all three areas of the insulator/seal keeps grit and other crap from getting into the slip ring cavity. While I appreciate your efforts to provide an informative website, I think you're getting ahead of yourself. Why don't you put this portion of your site aside until you've actually gone in and done the job and can see exactly how all these parts fit together and get some real pictures. All this guessing and speculation and 3rd party descriptions are counterproductive and inherently inaccurate. If you just can't wait, change your brushes now. You don't have to wait till next year. If you have over 150K miles on the car, it needs new brushes. And, I promise, the next time I do some repair on my car, I'll take pics and send them to you. :) nb Tegger and notbob, okay got it. Notbob, I think there was just a minor misunderstanding between what Tegger saw, what the manuals say, and my interpretation. No big deal, AFAIC. My alternator's brushes are about 68k miles old. I had the alternator replaced at the dealer at about 106k miles. I spend a lot of time preparing for important repair jobs, so as to do them right and not have to depend on a shop for iffy work. I also like to learn. Hence this effort. Plus, problems with the alternator do come up a lot here. Again, thanks folks for the input. > Tegger and notbob, okay got it. > > Notbob, I think there was just a minor misunderstanding between what > Tegger saw, What I REMEMBERED seeing. Four years ago. The photos from notbob cleared that confusion up. > what the manuals say, and my interpretation. No big deal, > AFAIC. > > My alternator's brushes are about 68k miles old. I had the alternator > replaced at the dealer at about 106k miles. You can leave the brushes until the charge light starts flickering. Mine went quite a lot longer than 68K. > I spend a lot of time preparing for important repair jobs, so as to do > them right and not have to depend on a shop for iffy work. Me too. I did a similar investigation before tackling my timing belt for the first time years ago. I'm doing the same on-again/off-again investigation in preparation for doing the timing belt on our Tercel this summer, and the front bushings and shocks all-around on the Integra. BTW, I discovered I can easily hacksaw through a 10.9 bolt in ten minutes with one hand and a partially-worn blade. If the damper fork bolts won't come loose for me, I'll allow a couple of hours per side and two premium hacksaw blades each side to cut through the old bolts and bushings. A complete front bushing set is $350Cdn including all the taxes. The rears were much more than that. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >Will people with experience with the alternator brush >assembly please examine the bottom-most photo on the site [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >somewhat tough angle for getting any serious torque on the >two screws. This looks just like the alternator on an 88 accord I recently swapped out. Yes, you have brush holder/insulator correctly identified. If you got this far, getting the brushes out pas this point is very easy. Two screws and the whole assembly comes out. ------------- Alex > below and tell me if I have correctly identified the "brush > holder insulator"? Yes, you have. > If one gets this far (end cover off, but alternator still > mounted), is it really a piece of cake? In my opinion, no. But, mine is a civic hatchback with zero wiggle room. I had to remove my alternator and that was hard enough. Also, putting the new brushes assy back on can be tricky. You must slide the spring loaded brushes back over the slip rings and the smaller diameter between the two rings allows the innermost brush to push down into the recess. Forcing the inner brush against the now larger diameter of the inner slip ring may chip or break the brush. I used a very small diameter spring steel rod (a very small dia drill bit would also work nicely) layed over the slip rings to hold the brushes up in the holder while sliding the brush assy back in place over the slip rings. I then pulled the rod out which let the two brushes drop down on the slip rings undamaged. This may be all but impossible to do with the alternator still mounted. Also, you may have great difficulty replacing the screws. One of the two screws holding the brush assy is recessed and will be almost impossible to replace without a phillips screw holder/driver. A magnetic screwdriver would also work for this. When you get your new brushes, get the whole brush holder assy. It comes with a new brush holder insulator and makes the whole job so much easier and quicker. nb notbob <notbob@nothome.com> wrote in news:27idndfQcsCQJ2HeRVn- tg@comcast.com: >> below and tell me if I have correctly identified the "brush >> holder insulator"? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > into the recess. Forcing the inner brush against the now larger > diameter of the inner slip ring may chip or break the brush. I had no trouble with that. As I recall, I just used a tiny flat-blade screwdriver to help the brushes over the edge of the slip rings. > I used a > very small diameter spring steel rod (a very small dia drill bit would [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > with the alternator still mounted. Also, you may have great > difficulty replacing the screws. Again, I had no trouble, even doing it one-handed. using a new, well- fitting stubby screwdriver is a big help. I just held the screw on to the screwdriver with my fingers while guiding them into place. > One of the two screws holding the > brush assy is recessed and will be almost impossible to replace [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > comes with a new brush holder insulator and makes the whole job so > much easier and quicker. Sure does. The brush holder is a great big heat sink. In retrospect, I should have used a small butane torch when replacing my brushes instead of an iron. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > I had no trouble with that. As I recall, I just used a tiny flat-blade > screwdriver to help the brushes over the edge of the slip rings. Ah, but you used something, didn't you! Same problem, different solution. ;) > Again, I had no trouble, even doing it one-handed. using a new, well- > fitting stubby screwdriver is a big help. I just held the screw on to the > screwdriver with my fingers while guiding them into place. Yeah, but I'm a big ol' sausage fingered klutz. > Sure does. The brush holder is a great big heat sink. In retrospect, I > should have used a small butane torch when replacing my brushes instead of > an iron. Plus, I wasn't in the mood to play "chase the spring". But, if one is feeling all handyman-ish or on a really tight budget, $20 can be saved by replacing just the brushes. The brushes alone are about $4-5 per pair and the whole assy with new insulator is about $25. My biggest problem was getting the damn alternator out. It was a seriously tight press fit in the alternator bracket. After removing the alternator bolt, the alternator had to be very forcefully pried free from the bracket with a 18" pry bar. To remount it, I had to grind about .020" material off the alternator. nb > Plus, I wasn't in the mood to play "chase the spring". But, if one is > feeling all handyman-ish or on a really tight budget, $20 can be saved > by replacing just the brushes. The brushes alone are about $4-5 per > pair and the whole assy with new insulator is about $25. In my case I didn't know about the brush holder replacement at the time and never thought to phone the dealer to ask. I just picked up a set of replacement brushes for five bucks at a local rebuilders that was nice enough to sell them to me. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2008 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.