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Car Forum / Honda Cars / April 2006

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News Report re: Hybrid Accords

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Jason - 17 Apr 2006 20:03 GMT
I just heard a news report on the radio indicating that Honda Inc.
indicated that they are not selling as many Hybrid Accords as
they expected to sell. As a result, they will cut back on their
production of Hybrid Accords.

I believe there are two reasons:

1. Most people did not want to pay the extra costs related
to buying a Hybrid Accord.

2. The Hybrid Accord does NOT look like a Hybrid car.
Those people that want to impress their friends and Co-workers
with a Hybrid vehicle would prefer the Toyota Prius since
it looks like a Hybrid. I already know that there are other
reasons that people prefer the Prius--such as the design
of the car.

What's your opinion on this subject?
Jason

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Xxxxx - 17 Apr 2006 20:45 GMT
With regular gas having just edged above $3/gallon where I live, my opinion
is that car buyers are idiots. A guy up the street has two Hummers in his
driveway. TWO! And two large SUVs in his garage, as well.

Where I live, the Honda dealers *never* have any hybrids in stock. There
have been waiting lists ever since before the first hybrids arrived at the
dealership. You can't even test drive them -- there are NONE available.

So, if there is surplus supply somewhere, they really ought to be shipping
the unsold vehicles to places where demand exceeds supply.

> What's your opinion on this subject?
> Jason
Brian Smith - 17 Apr 2006 20:51 GMT
> With regular gas having just edged above $3/gallon where I live, my
> opinion is that car buyers are idiots. A guy up the street has two Hummers
> in his driveway. TWO! And two large SUVs in his garage, as well.

That's probably because the two Hummers won't fit in the garage <g>.
Lynn McGuire - 17 Apr 2006 21:32 GMT
> I just heard a news report on the radio indicating that Honda Inc.
> indicated that they are not selling as many Hybrid Accords as
> they expected to sell. As a result, they will cut back on their
> production of Hybrid Accords.

The Accord Hybrid is not a real hybrid.  It is a V6 with a small
electric assist motor that can add 2 or 3 mpg at most.  And
that is probably on a good day.

Honda should have built this vehicle with the I4 motor and just
made it a bigger version of the Civic Hybrid.  Instead, they
made an expensive hotrod (0 to 60 mph in 6 sec!).

Real hybrids have electric motors that can drive the vehicles
by themselves and electric A/C, electric power steering.

Lynn
Gordon McGrew - 18 Apr 2006 04:59 GMT
>> I just heard a news report on the radio indicating that Honda Inc.
>> indicated that they are not selling as many Hybrid Accords as
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>Lynn

I agree that Honda missed the mark on the Accord Hybrid.  It made for
a fun car but not attractive to the mainstream Accord shopper.  I
think the 4 cyl outsells the V6 by 4 to 1 already.  If they wanted to
go the hybrid hotrod route, they should have done the RSX or Civic Si.

I don't agree that a "real hybrid" has to be able to run off
electricity alone.  The Civic nearly matches the Prius in mpg even
though it was not purpose built as a hybrid and it uses much less
expensive batteries and motor.  I know a woman who owns an Accord
Hybrid and claims it gets about 38 mpg on the highway.
Jason - 18 Apr 2006 15:22 GMT
> >> I just heard a news report on the radio indicating that Honda Inc.
> >> indicated that they are not selling as many Hybrid Accords as
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> expensive batteries and motor.  I know a woman who owns an Accord
> Hybrid and claims it gets about 38 mpg on the highway.

I agree with you. The woman is probably telling the truth. If people drive
an Hybrid or almost any car in a special way--they can get much better MPG
than most people get. I read an article that gave "tips" on how to get
better than average MPG in a Toyota Prius. It involved keeping an eye on
the speed and the special gauges in a Prius. It was my opinion that it
took all of the fun out of driving. It involved lots of WORK to get really
lots of MPG. I prefer driving without having to worry about those kinds of
things. Driving should be FUN--not work.
Jason

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Art - 18 Apr 2006 15:39 GMT
My wife gets around 28 mpg crawling in stop and go traffic to work.  Without
the electric motor and battery you could not have autostop with ac running
so it is a hybrid.

>>> I just heard a news report on the radio indicating that Honda Inc.
>>> indicated that they are not selling as many Hybrid Accords as
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> expensive batteries and motor.  I know a woman who owns an Accord
> Hybrid and claims it gets about 38 mpg on the highway.
mrdancer - 18 Apr 2006 23:46 GMT
"Gordon McGrew" wrote in message...
> expensive batteries and motor.  I know a woman who owns an Accord
> Hybrid and claims it gets about 38 mpg on the highway.

A week ago Sunday I did an 850-mile trip with my '02 Accord.  Fuel economy
worked out to 39.5 (measured by topping of the tank at fuel stops).  I
probably could've gotten 40mpg (as I have before), but I was driving 75mph
with the AC on and had the car pretty heavily loaded.

Mpg is much worse in cold weather, something like 28mpg around town.  Warm
weather, I average 34mpg around town.

BTW, it is a 4-cyl. 5-spd LX coupe.
CC - 23 Apr 2006 17:12 GMT
I have had an 03 Civic Hybrid and now have an 05' Accord Hybrid.  If I
had to have one or the other, in today's market and gas prices, I
still choose the Accord.  It is my trip vehicle and the 03 Civic did
not cut it.  Wandered, under powered (Do NOT get the CVT Civic if you
pull out onto busy 50 mph two lane roads, regularly), and
uncomfortable, even with the Leather interior (aftermarket) upgrade I
had on it.

Yes, I like power and my first new car was a V8 back in the day -
'70s.  The Accord Hybrid (as is true of ALL current Hybrids) will NOT
save you money over the life of ownership, fact - read any study.  The
premium cost is too high to be made up by gas savings.  Heaven help
you should need something unique fixed.  (The AC radiator/condensor is
$750)  So, why own it.

It is the fastest production Honda Accord with 15 hp ('05) more than
the non-hybrid V6.  The Hybrid gets 29 mpg in town (and I do get about
that) and I get 34.5 mpg at 80 mph average highway and the rated 37
mpg if I average 60 - 65 mph.  The non-hybrid 05 V6 comparably
equipped, actually gets 18-22 city and 27- 32 highway.

So, I ride in luxury (the Accord starts with everything and adds
hybrid), get the best mileage of any vehicle with comparable
performance,  can comfortably transport 5 and have LOCKOUT-ABLE trunk
storage (the Prius has no secure storage when you leave it for service
or leave valuables in the "trunk").

I work around and build military hybrids and chose to own one, just to
say that I do.  Status - which is the only reason to own one - today.
That will not be the case in 5 to 10 years.

BTW:  Yes, I am hunting for some lightning bolt symbol magnets to put
on the side to flaunt that it is a hybrid,  

Honda did just fine, by me.  (except for the lack of a spare, which I
have solved - after market.)

>"Gordon McGrew" wrote in message...
>> expensive batteries and motor.  I know a woman who owns an Accord
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>BTW, it is a 4-cyl. 5-spd LX coupe.
Grahame - 17 Apr 2006 21:56 GMT
In what way does a Prius LOOK like a hybrid???

> I just heard a news report on the radio indicating that Honda Inc.
> indicated that they are not selling as many Hybrid Accords as
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> What's your opinion on this subject?
> Jason
Elliot Richmond - 17 Apr 2006 22:32 GMT
>In what way does a Prius LOOK like a hybrid???

Well, it's got that thing on the back that says "Hybrid Synergy
Drive."  That's gotta be at least 3 by 5 centimeters. You can read it
from at least a couple of meters away.

Elliot
Itinerant Curmudgeon
Jason - 17 Apr 2006 23:30 GMT
> In what way does a Prius LOOK like a hybrid???

The Honda Accord Hybrid looks like an Accord.
The Honda Civic Hybrid looks like a Civic.
The Toyota Prius is unique--it does not look like any other car.
When almost anyone looks at a Toyota Prius--they know
that it's a Toyota Prius Hybrid car.
The reason the Honda Insight Hybrid was not popular is
because of the poor design and the lack of power.
The Prius has much more power and has a better design
than the Honda Insight.

> I just heard a news report on the radio indicating that Honda Inc.
> > indicated that they are not selling as many Hybrid Accords as
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> > What's your opinion on this subject?
> > Jason

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Michael Pardee - 18 Apr 2006 02:35 GMT
> The Honda Accord Hybrid looks like an Accord.
> The Honda Civic Hybrid looks like a Civic.
> The Toyota Prius is unique--it does not look like any other car.
> When almost anyone looks at a Toyota Prius--they know
> that it's a Toyota Prius Hybrid car.

That is certainly true of the 2004-current Prius, but the 2001-2003 Prius is
hard to tell apart from the 4-door Ford Focus Sedan. Some Focus cars don't
have the rear spoiler, the Prius has a battery vent on the left "C" pillar,
and the logos are different. The color options have some overlap, but there
are different colors available between the two. That's about it.

Mike
Jim Yanik - 18 Apr 2006 03:47 GMT
>> The Honda Accord Hybrid looks like an Accord.
>> The Honda Civic Hybrid looks like a Civic.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Mike

It seems that hybrids are not getting the advertised mileage,because people
drive differently than they anticipated,the cost of a hybrid is
significantly higher than a normal auto,for a couple of reasons for low
sales.

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Michael Pardee - 18 Apr 2006 05:45 GMT
> It seems that hybrids are not getting the advertised mileage,because
> people
> drive differently than they anticipated,the cost of a hybrid is
> significantly higher than a normal auto,for a couple of reasons for low
> sales.

Toyota is selling all they can make, with most areas still putting buyers
on waiting lists.

The problem is that no car has ever gotten the advertised mileage. The EPA
has told us since the '70s, when they started the fuel economy testing, the
numbers were "for comparison only" and "your mileage may vary." Some people
just ignore what they don't want to hear, I reckon. At any rate, the problem
of "YMMV" will probably worsen as better fuel economy becomes common. My
rough estimation is that a passenger car or even light truck could reach
somewhere between 100 and 200 mpg in low speed driving on level ground. I
was looking for the link to a recent track competition, where I recall a
stock Prius turned in over 100 mpg in very unrealistic conditions, but don't
see it just now. If we weren't operating engines in such incredibly
inefficient ranges we could be doing that today. But the gasoline goes to
more than moving the car in real life. Cold engines and catalytic converters
have to be warmed up, the passengers have to be warmed or cooled,
electricity must be generated for lights, fans, and big honkin' amplifiers
(sorry - I got carried away!) These parasitic factors already sap up to 20%
of the EPA figures for most people. What will the public think when the EPA
says 113 mpg - as Toyota is credibly rumored to have as a goal - and Joe
Consumer is making dozens of half mile trips to the corner store on every
tank and complaining how he was lied to?

Mike
Grumpy AuContraire - 18 Apr 2006 11:54 GMT
> > It seems that hybrids are not getting the advertised mileage,because
> > people
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> Mike

Heh...  As the populace is "dumbed down," one can only (rational thought
processes required) that there are just too many people on the planet.
Just think..  If the world's population were to be cut in half tomorrow,
most of the current "crisis" issues would simply vanish..

JT

(But let me stay!)
Michael Pardee - 18 Apr 2006 13:13 GMT
> Heh...  As the populace is "dumbed down," one can only (rational thought
> processes required) that there are just too many people on the planet.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> (But let me stay!)

Maybe it depends on which half remains ;-) Since I've already admitted to
being in the half that opens the "do not open" housing my fate is probably
sealed. The test will be marked by three billion people simultaneously
looking at a doodad and saying in a variety of languages, "Hey! What's
this?"

Mike
John Horner - 18 Apr 2006 16:02 GMT
>  Toyota is selling all they can make, with most areas still putting buyers
> on waiting lists.
>
> The problem is that no car has ever gotten the advertised mileage.

Total BS.  I consistently get fuel economy results with our conventional
engine cars which are well within the bounds of the EPA test results.
Our V-6 Accord fuel economy ranges from 24-30 mpg depending on the
highway/local mix.  Our Acura TSX is getting 25-32 mpg in our use.   EPA
test numbers on those cars are 21/30 for the Accord and 22/32 for the
TSX.   In my case, the correlation between EPS test and real world use
is right on the money.

Something is screwy with hybrids in particular in that their real world
mileage is so different from the EPA test numbers.

JOhn
flobert - 18 Apr 2006 19:28 GMT
>>  Toyota is selling all they can make, with most areas still putting buyers
>> on waiting lists.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>TSX.   In my case, the correlation between EPS test and real world use
>is right on the money.

gotta agree. I have a 97 t+C as well as my 89 civic. Its a lot easier
to track milage with the van, since its got the display right there,
so there goes. Its the 3.8, and the sheet in the glove box (yep, still
there, pristine) shows 18/24 EPa. It was a work vehicle for 3 months,
carrying crates of merchendise up and down georgia for merchendise
racks. Even loadd down most of the time, it was averaging 26mpg.
Around town, if I put the front and rear AC on, and drive 'spiritidly'
I'll maybe get 16. I did a trip from atlanta to talahassee, and was
back in georgia before having to fill up, something like 32mpg
overall. The trick is how you drive. Be smooth, look ahead and
anticipate, and you'll get much better figures. If you see a red light
ahead, slow gently from a long way, odds are then that it'll change
before you get there and you don't have to stop. WE've debated
coasting endlessly, and down hills, the maths disproved the myth about
it making your brakes fail. of course, conversely, if you're comming
to a stop, leave it in gear, you'll use less fuel then.

There are slightly smaller things too to boost your milage, like
refuel at the coldest time possible, or get a diesel (and not a nasty
smokey old engine as is available in trucks, but nice modern ones such
as in the VW golf/jetta or the dodge [mercedies] sprinter for
commercial vehicles) I again repeat the feat of the BBC driver who got
over 40mpg from a 4l twin turbo Audi A8 diesel (which also has a
6second 0-60 time if you need it)

>Something is screwy with hybrids in particular in that their real world
>mileage is so different from the EPA test numbers.

Such as the highly specialised control systems possibly sensing the
conditions of an EPA test, and reacting accordingly?

>JOhn
Michael Pardee - 19 Apr 2006 00:41 GMT
>>  Toyota is selling all they can make, with most areas still putting
>> buyers on waiting lists.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> JOhn

Not at all. We get very close to the EPA numbers in town (upper 40s instead
of 52) and at 65 mph (same: upper 40s) on highways with our hybrid. At 75
mph the economy drops a lot. Most people report numbers in the 40s, and fuel
consumption in the 30s means either the driver is doing something wrong
(like leaving the defroster on) or there is a defect.

The problem is that the EPA tests are a benchmark for operation without
short trips, without gridlock and without running the heater or A/C on high.
It is not possible to add those losses and keep the same numbers the EPA
gets. The notion that the error is unique to hybrids is a recent one - the
complaint has been with all cars since the rating system started.

Mike
Larry the Free - 17 Apr 2006 23:00 GMT
Waiving the right to remain silent, jason@nospam.com (Jason) said:

> Those people that want to impress their friends and Co-workers
> with a Hybrid vehicle would prefer the Toyota Prius since
> it looks like a Hybrid.

What does a Hybrid "look like"..?  Why should it look any different than
an ordinary car..?

Honda's original Hybrid looked so odd, it's no wonder they couldn't sell
them.

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 about the environment!" - 'Denny Crane'

flobert - 18 Apr 2006 19:38 GMT
>Waiving the right to remain silent, jason@nospam.com (Jason) said:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>What does a Hybrid "look like"..?  Why should it look any different than
>an ordinary car..?

Because how else will the poseurs driving them convay to everyone how
'enviromentally hip' they are (omitting that it'll take some 100,000
miles to offset the pollution caused by the battery production,
however many miles the disposal of the batteries will take, and how
they could probably get similar performance and economy if the heavy
electrical system was taken out anyway (acceleration = force/mass,
reduce the mass, you need less force - same as a car with 4 boss
hawg's in will have to work much harder than if there were 4 japanese
schoolgirls, all in very light clothes in there)

>Honda's original Hybrid looked so odd, it's no wonder they couldn't sell
>them.

not so much spin on it, and no celbrity endorsements. Cars sell on
coolness, nothing else. If its not cool, it won't sell. Thats why
motorsports are so important to manufacturers. Rallying, touring cars,
movies etc. all help sell the cars by making them cool. look at wht
the Italian job did for the mini's. I get in one, I sure want to race
around Turin. gone n 60 seconds helped make the mustang iconic. Jackie
chan and mitsubishi... the list is endless.
Jason - 18 Apr 2006 20:19 GMT
> >Waiving the right to remain silent, jason@nospam.com (Jason) said:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> around Turin. gone n 60 seconds helped make the mustang iconic. Jackie
> chan and mitsubishi... the list is endless.

flobert,
I agreed with every word. I could not have said it better.
Jason

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Gordon McGrew - 20 Apr 2006 03:14 GMT
>>Waiving the right to remain silent, jason@nospam.com (Jason) said:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>miles to offset the pollution caused by the battery production,
>however many miles the disposal of the batteries will take,

Cars are considered a major source of pollution.  Flashlights aren't.
The hybrid system is saving maybe 800 gallons of gas over 100,000
miles and emit eight tons less CO2.  The batteries don't weigh that
much and they will certainly be recycled.

>and how
>they could probably get similar performance and economy if the heavy
>electrical system was taken out anyway (acceleration = force/mass,
>reduce the mass, you need less force

This is demonstrably false (not F=MA, the part about achieving the
same economy if weight of the hybrid system were removed)  The hybrids
compete against similar size and performance cars which don't have the
hybrid electrical system and the hybrids get much better millage.

                                    Milage
                pounds    HP        EPA        Consumer Reports
    Civic EX        2740        140        30/38        28
    Civic Hybrid    2875        110        49/51        37
    Prius            2890        110        60/51        44

>>Honda's original Hybrid looked so odd, it's no wonder they couldn't sell
>>them.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>around Turin. gone n 60 seconds helped make the mustang iconic. Jackie
>chan and mitsubishi... the list is endless.

What are the coolest cars out there?  Must be Toyota Camry, Honda
Accord, Honda Civic, they are the best sellers.  No doubt being cool
can sell some cars but it is far from the only motivator.

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Art - 18 Apr 2006 15:37 GMT
I believe the hybrids are still only made in Japan so they probably don't
make much money on them even at extra high price.  Also gas mileage rating
went down this year.

> I just heard a news report on the radio indicating that Honda Inc.
> indicated that they are not selling as many Hybrid Accords as
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> What's your opinion on this subject?
> Jason
John Horner - 18 Apr 2006 15:55 GMT
IMO Honda completely missed the boat on this one by going for a
"performance hybrid".  Nobody needs even higher performance than the V-6
Accord already offers, and the price of the Hybrid Accord is a show
stopper.   Why pay the price on an Acura TL to get a Honda sedan?

Hybrids should be about great fuel economy, and the Accord hybrid real
world economy is little better than the 4 cylinder Accord.

IMO Honda would do much better selling a high economy 1.8 L turbocharged
version of the Accord instead of the silly V-6 hybrid.  With the new
focus on fuel economy we are going to see more use of smaller engines
with turbochargers.  Even Honda is about to get into the turbo act with
the new Acura RDX.

John
Jason - 18 Apr 2006 16:18 GMT
> IMO Honda completely missed the boat on this one by going for a
> "performance hybrid".  Nobody needs even higher performance than the V-6
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> John

John,
I agree with you. The new Honda Fit will get 33 mpg in the city and 38
miles on the highway. It's my opinion that lots of people will buy the
Honda Fit or Toyota Yaris (for about $15,000 per car) instead of
overpriced Hybrids. The cost of a Toyata Prius is about $23,000 per car.
Do you agree?
Jason

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Lynn McGuire - 18 Apr 2006 17:45 GMT
> I agree with you. The new Honda Fit will get 33 mpg in the city and 38
> miles on the highway. It's my opinion that lots of people will buy the
> Honda Fit or Toyota Yaris (for about $15,000 per car) instead of
> overpriced Hybrids. The cost of a Toyata Prius is about $23,000 per car.

My wife's 97 and 2005 Civic EX coupes with 5 speeds were advertised
to get 33 / 38 mpg.  They both get about 25 / 35 mpg.  But, she drives
with that right pedal flat on the floor.

Lynn
John Horner - 18 Apr 2006 23:48 GMT
>>I agree with you. The new Honda Fit will get 33 mpg in the city and 38
>>miles on the highway. It's my opinion that lots of people will buy the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Lynn

Obviously agressive driving styles will result in worse than EPA test
number economy.

John
John Horner - 18 Apr 2006 23:47 GMT
> John,
> I agree with you. The new Honda Fit will get 33 mpg in the city and 38
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Do you agree?
> Jason

Yes, for a commuter vehicle something like the Fit makes sense, though
the safety aspect concerns me.  If fuel costs continue to rise we can
expect to see a run on these things.   Folks who can afford it will keep
a little car for their commuter vehicle and perhaps something more
comfortable/capable for weekends and vacations.

In general I think that hybrid technology as currently implemented
results in too much cost and too much added complexity for too little
benefit.

A small high tech turbo-diesel can get the job done better!

John
Michael Pardee - 19 Apr 2006 01:01 GMT
> A small high tech turbo-diesel can get the job done better!
>
> John

There is certainly something to be said for turbo-diesels. My new work truck
is a Ford with the Cummins 6L TDi. It has shortcomings common to diesels and
most marked in TDs: it has to be driven gently when cold to protect the
engine, it is noisy and smoky (mostly smoky during warm-up), and even when
warm merging into traffic makes me wish I had four feet - one to hold the
accelerator down, one to let the clutch up, and two to do the Fred
Flintstone thing. But the advantages are more important. It gets right at
twice the fuel economy of the old gasser (at least on the highway... dunno
about in town), yielding twice the range with the same size tank - important
when crossing the largest indian reservation in the US at odd hours. On the
highway, with only a slight turbo lag, the power is phenomenal... as I would
expect with more than 20 lbs boost. And off-road it crawls along much better
than the gasser did, as long as I don't let the turbo come in.

Mike
flobert - 19 Apr 2006 03:15 GMT
>> A small high tech turbo-diesel can get the job done better!
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>accelerator down, one to let the clutch up, and two to do the Fred
>Flintstone thing.

Thats why he said a high-tech one. The cummins and other crap in US
domestic trucks are OLD designs, at least 10 years behind whats
available in europe, and filtering into the US. Friend's husband has
the 7.something cummins in an F250. says the same thing as you. Its
pretty much the same engine as all through the 80's and 90s.

> But the advantages are more important. It gets right at
>twice the fuel economy of the old gasser (at least on the highway... dunno
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Mike
Michael Pardee - 19 Apr 2006 14:00 GMT
>>> A small high tech turbo-diesel can get the job done better!
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> the 7.something cummins in an F250. says the same thing as you. Its
> pretty much the same engine as all through the 80's and 90s.

I hear that all the time, but my Swedish friend tells me the diesels in
Europe are the exact same way. Certainly the turbo lag will be identical -
you can't get 20 psi boost from thin air.

Mike
flobert - 19 Apr 2006 02:36 GMT
>> John,
>> I agree with you. The new Honda Fit will get 33 mpg in the city and 38
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Yes, for a commuter vehicle something like the Fit makes sense, though
>the safety aspect concerns me.  

What safety Aspect. and for that matter, who's safety?

>In general I think that hybrid technology as currently implemented
>results in too much cost and too much added complexity for too little
>benefit.

too true. They're for show only. Its the automotive equivilent of
recycling drinks cans.

>A small high tech turbo-diesel can get the job done better!

too true,

>John
John Horner - 19 Apr 2006 05:46 GMT
>>Yes, for a commuter vehicle something like the Fit makes sense, though
>>the safety aspect concerns me.  
>
> What safety Aspect. and for that matter, who's safety?

My concern is the safety of the occupant when impacted by the monster
trucks so many folks consider sensible commuter vehicles.

All other things being equal, smaller and lighter is a disadvantage to
the occupants in a crash.

John
flobert - 19 Apr 2006 16:33 GMT
>>>Yes, for a commuter vehicle something like the Fit makes sense, though
>>>the safety aspect concerns me.  
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>My concern is the safety of the occupant when impacted by the monster
>trucks so many folks consider sensible commuter vehicles.

actually, the disadvantage is often to the bigger one. its not so much
a factor of size of impacting vehicle, as energy anyway. being hit
with a 2ton vehicle at a closing speed of 90mph is the same as a 4ton
vehicle at 40mph. They're designed to absor those loads. the bigger
car, however, will have a tendency to go up and over the smaller one,
andwill dissipate the energy more dramatically, lots of rolling etc.
Its another situation where only one side of the equation is
considered. plus, with the big vehicle more liekly to be deflected up
and over, its less energy imparted to the small vehicle.

Small vehicles are also more resistant nowadays. There's the video on
google showing the swatch smart car crashing into a concrete barrier
at wither 40 or 50mph, the drivers cabin is barely touched. This is a
vehicle designed to be as long as a normal car is wide (so you can
park 3 or so nose-in in a standard parallel parking space)

>All other things being equal, smaller and lighter is a disadvantage to
>the occupants in a crash.

As I said, thats a misconception based on non-complete examination of
all the componants. Theres a video around that shows this graphically
- a mitsubishi shogun hitting the side of a civic, I think. The shogun
comes off just as bad, as it went up, over and carried on rolling.

>John
Jason - 19 Apr 2006 17:54 GMT
> >>>Yes, for a commuter vehicle something like the Fit makes sense, though
> >>>the safety aspect concerns me.  
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> - a mitsubishi shogun hitting the side of a civic, I think. The shogun
> comes off just as bad, as it went up, over and carried on rolling.

It depends on the type of accident. For example, if it's a high speed
accident on the freeway or interstate, the huge SUVs and pickups could
easily turn over and cause those inside the huge SUVs and huge pickups to
be injured or killed. The small cars such as the Fit would be less likely
to turn over or upside down in such a crash. However, most accidents take
place at low speeds such as in towns and cities--usually at intersections.
In those sorts of accidents--neither vehicle is likely to turn over or
upside down. In those cases, it's more likely that the people inside small
cars such as the Fit will be injured than people inside monster sized SUVs
and monster size pick-up trucks.
Jason

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flobert - 19 Apr 2006 19:22 GMT
>> >>>Yes, for a commuter vehicle something like the Fit makes sense, though
>> >>>the safety aspect concerns me.  
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>cars such as the Fit will be injured than people inside monster sized SUVs
>and monster size pick-up trucks.

says who? go look at some actual accidents E=1/2 MV^2  - no getting
away from it, in an eleastic colision, energyis absorbed by both
vehicles in a ratio determined by their elasticity (which in this case
is the deformation values). The image you paint is based on the rather
more simplistic 'inelastic colission' view taught at schools. real
accidents are not inelastic. Thers no 2 force and simple extrapolation
of energies. A light car will more likely slide on its tyres than a
heavy one, thats energy there, if a cars deflected up, energy there,
and you'll have to get your trig tables out to work out how much. see
it gets plenty complex.

The 'small cars are dangerous' thing isn't so true now as it was 20
years ago. cars are built differently, and have many ifferent design
regs now. If you were in a, ooh, 1980 accord-size car, you're going to
be seriously injured than in a modern small car, like the BMW 'mini'
if both took part in the same accident. cars are not all that stable
as we'd like to think. I'm struggling to remembe the rule of thumb for
rolling a car without a ram, but it evades me. a 2inchh lip will roll
pretty much any car sliding sideways at an initial speed of 40mph, i
remmeber that much. (well, not your long, wide low cars like a zonda
etc.

>Jason
Jason - 19 Apr 2006 21:16 GMT
> >> >>>Yes, for a commuter vehicle something like the Fit makes sense, though
> >> >>>the safety aspect concerns me.  
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
> remmeber that much. (well, not your long, wide low cars like a zonda
> etc.

Hello,
I believe that monster sized pick-up trucks and SUVs are more likely to
turn over in a high speed accident than most cars such as the Accord
or Toyota Camry. The reason is simple: The monster size pick-up trucks
and SUVs are "top-heavy". I know that some cars (due to their design
are also "top heavy"-eg Toyota Echo). However, most cars are NOT top
heavy. I should note that some monster size SUV's are NOT top heavy.
For example, the Hummer does not appear to me to be top heavy.
However, most cars are not likely to turn over in a high speed accident
because they are NOT top heavy. Do you see my point?
Jason

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flobert - 19 Apr 2006 21:53 GMT
>> >> >>>Yes, for a commuter vehicle something like the Fit makes sense, though
>> >> >>>the safety aspect concerns me.  
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
>However, most cars are not likely to turn over in a high speed accident
>because they are NOT top heavy. Do you see my point?

I know what you're saying, and again, its very simplified. "top
heavyness" is to the rollability of cars on an impact, what a tennis
ball hitting a wall is to two cars impacting. its a very simplified
and overly basic evaluation.

I'll put it simply, into moresimple terms. a heavier car carries more
energy.
A taller car has a higher center of gravity.

now, in an impact between a large car and a smaller one, the intial
ofrces may be ---> <---
If, however, the surfeaces are not completely perpendicular, and the
collapsing equally uniform, there will be a vertical element to it, as
a proportion of its total energy. I greater vertical energy value (due
tot he greater overall energy value) means a greater rotational moment
about the pivot. The higher the COg, the less of a rotation the
vehicle needs to roll. So, a larger vehicle has a greater energy, and
a higher COG meaning its rollover will be greater than a smaller
vehicle for a given deflection.

Next, add in the physical height. A bigger vehicle has bigger wheels.
Often much greater suspension travel. Its impact sports will impact
higher up on the other vehicle, and thus will ride over. This produces
a greater deflection value for a bigger vehicle.

Bigger deflection, rotating with more energy, and a higher COG = very
liekly to roll in an impact with a smaller vehicle.

Its not rocket science. you just ca't look at it in terms of wooden
blocks for vehciles. you have to look at shapes, energies, and a
step-by-step look throughout the collision. Its like you're watching a
ball hit a baseball bat and thinking ball (small light) hits bat
(bigger heavier) so ball will always come off worst (and go out of the
park) It aint so, its curved, there's all sorts of energy deflections
and transfers. A simplistic model, such as the one you're using is
fine for a very eough estimate. but thats all it is, a very simplistic
ball-park figure. Heck, you rear-end someone, a big factor is their
brakes. if they were applied, a lot more damage is done thn if they're
not, yet your model takes none of that into consideration.

just as a closer, another video clip springs to mind - its of a
security post arangement. one of those powered bollards. Whole thing
was probably about 300lbs all told, for the enetire system. They
tested it by driving a 5ton truck into it at 30mph. Stopped the truck
dead. by your modeling methods, the post should probably have been
napped right off. It was, after all, a lot smaller and lighter. Truck
stopped, bollard was through to between the drivers seat, and the
truck almost ended up on its nose (high cog again) but it stopped it.

In short, its not so much the magnitudes of the energy that make the
difference, its where those energies go.

>Jason
Jason - 19 Apr 2006 22:29 GMT
> >> >> >>>Yes, for a commuter vehicle something like the Fit makes sense, though
> >> >> >>>the safety aspect concerns me.  
[quoted text clipped - 123 lines]
> In short, its not so much the magnitudes of the energy that make the
> difference, its where those energies go.

Hello,
I understand your points. I have a neighbor that once owned a monster
sized pick-up truck. He had a full sized camper mounted on the bed of the
truck. He told me that a major wind storm almost blew over the truck. He
said that he was afraid to drive the truck whenever there was a storm.
He does not have a camper mounted on his new truck. Please tell me if you
agree with this statement:
"Monster sized pick-ups and SUVs are more likely (than most cars) to roll
over in a high speed accident. The reason is because monster sized pick-ups
and SUVs are more top heavy than most cars."
I should note that I have driven my Honda Accord in a major windstorm and
did not have any problems controlling the car. It would NEVER blow over
in most windstorms.
Jason

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flobert - 20 Apr 2006 00:03 GMT
>> >> >> >>>Yes, for a commuter vehicle something like the Fit makes sense,
>though
[quoted text clipped - 135 lines]
>over in a high speed accident. The reason is because monster sized pick-ups
>and SUVs are more top heavy than most cars."

ANY large truck or SUV is. doesn't have to be monster sized (like the
one my wife's cousin drives - an f350 whose wing-mirror I can walk
under, and where my 2yo can walk under the engine without hitting her
head.

>I should note that I have driven my Honda Accord in a major windstorm and
>did not have any problems controlling the car. It would NEVER blow over
>in most windstorms.

used to have a 98 daihatsu hijet as a work vehicle. We'd take the 4
rear seats out, and literally lioad it to the window level with gear,
inlcuding some 350lb of batteries. COG was really low (lower than most
cars, in fact, since the engine was mounted under the front seats) a
moderatly windy day would blow it around even then. Any high-sided
vehicle will wander, when its very windy. Heck, my 87 and 97 minivans
wander when its windy. Its what they do.

>Jason
Jason - 20 Apr 2006 00:24 GMT
> >> >> >> >>>Yes, for a commuter vehicle something like the Fit makes sense,
> >though
[quoted text clipped - 152 lines]
> vehicle will wander, when its very windy. Heck, my 87 and 97 minivans
> wander when its windy. Its what they do.

We are in agreement. Last year, I had to use a rental car and took the
cheapest car on the lot to save money. It was Toyota Echo. I was amazed
that a company like Toyota would build a car like the Echo. It's really
narrow and was even taller than my Honda Accord. It also had really small
wheels. Despite the fact that it is a car--it is very high profile (aka
top heavy). I drove the car thru a wind storm and had a very difficult
time keeping the car under control. I was driving at a high rate of speed
on the freeway and the wind almost blew the Echo into a car in the other
lane. I have driven my Accord thru the same sort of windstorms and never
had trouble controlling the vehicle. I know that the drivers of monster
sized SUVs and pickups trucks that have a camper mounted in the bed will
agree that High Profile vehicles are more likely than cars to turn over in
a high speed accident or major wind storm. Even high profile cars like the
Echo are also at risk of turning over or turning upside down in a high
speed accident. Do you agree?
Jason

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John Horner - 20 Apr 2006 05:02 GMT
> As I said, thats a misconception based on non-complete examination of
> all the componants. Theres a video around that shows this graphically
> - a mitsubishi shogun hitting the side of a civic, I think. The shogun
> comes off just as bad, as it went up, over and carried on rolling.

Interesting theories, but the real world data is very straightforward,
for example:

"In the latest crash figures available from 2003, provided by the
Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (see chart below), there were 142
fatalities per million registered vehicles for the smallest cars. That
figure drops to 108 fatalities for the next larger class of cars. For
large sedans, that number drops to 61 per million. "

That was from:

http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/safety/articles/106748/article.html

IIHS and others have studied this issue extensively, and the occupants
of smaller automobiles die in accidents much more often than to those in
larger cars.  You can try to handwave it away with driver demographics,
but that doesn't add up either.

John
JXStern - 22 Apr 2006 22:05 GMT
>>All other things being equal, smaller and lighter is a disadvantage to
>>the occupants in a crash.
>
>As I said, thats a misconception based on non-complete examination of
>all the componants.

Small cars *can* be made much more resistant, but then it's not all
other things being equal, "ceteris paribus".

J.
Michael Pardee - 19 Apr 2006 00:50 GMT
> John,
> I agree with you. The new Honda Fit will get 33 mpg in the city and 38
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Do you agree?
> Jason

OTOH, anybody who gets only 33/38 in a hybrid complains bitterly -
especially that city rating. If a Prius gets below 40 in any weather short
of snowy roads there is something wrong - our first generation has *never*
dropped below 40, in town or on the highway (round trip where applicable).
Combine that with the improved performance of hybrids, especially
off-the-line, plus the spectacularly smooth power delivery of Toyota's
system, and it's easy to see why cheap cars are cheap. I wouldn't buy an
economy car if I can afford better.

Mike
flobert - 19 Apr 2006 03:27 GMT
On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 16:50:48 -0700, in alt.autos.honda you wrote:

>> John,
>> I agree with you. The new Honda Fit will get 33 mpg in the city and 38
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>system, and it's easy to see why cheap cars are cheap. I wouldn't buy an
>economy car if I can afford better.

You're not paying for better physics, or golden engines. cheap cars
are cheap because they don't pack in the luxuries. I've been in plenty
of cheap cars with smooth power delivery. i've been in expensive cars
with terrible power delivery (Jaguar s-type diesel for starters, any
USDM diesel except the sprinter, and a buick I rented back in 03
spring to mind.)

Friend had a bottom of the range [but new] ford fiesta, power delivery
was a lot smoother than in my [then] 8yo volvo, despite the volvo
costing about 3.5x more when new (this was in 98)

cost and smoothness are two different things. The price between my 360
and his fiesta was not in smoothness, but in other areas, like how I
could get in my boot almost everything he could get in his car with
the rear seat down too, i had more power, RWD to his FWD, and heaters,
wipers and other severe weather gear everywhere (oh, and I be hit by
another car at 40-50mph, and still be able to tow them home, very
important that!)

>Mike
Art - 19 Apr 2006 01:04 GMT
My wife test drove the Accord and Civic hybrids and the Prius.  She went
with the accord because she did not want to give up so many creature
comforts.  The Toyota hybrid SUV gets mediocre gas mileage too at a high
sticker price.  That fancy interior in the Acura will never pay for itself
either.  Hybrid is just one more feature.  If you pay for it in the Accord
you are rewarded with a little more power and better gas mileage.

>> IMO Honda completely missed the boat on this one by going for a
>> "performance hybrid".  Nobody needs even higher performance than the V-6
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Do you agree?
> Jason
JXStern - 22 Apr 2006 22:06 GMT
>IMO Honda completely missed the boat on this one by going for a
>"performance hybrid".

What he said, though it was brave of them to try.

Now, if they want to take the I4 and put on a double hybrid boost so
that it outperforms the V6 and still gets better mileage than the
plain version, we might have something!

J.
CC - 23 Apr 2006 17:23 GMT
(Note: also posted elsewhere in the topic)

I have had an 03 Civic Hybrid and now have an 05' Accord Hybrid.  If I
had to have one or the other, in today's market and gas prices, I
still choose the Accord.  It is my trip vehicle and the 03 Civic did
not cut it.  Wandered, under powered (Do NOT get the CVT Civic if you
pull out onto busy 50 mph two lane roads, regularly), and
uncomfortable, even with the Leather interior (aftermarket) upgrade I
had on it.

Yes, I like power and my first new car was a V8 back in the day -
'70s.  The Accord Hybrid (as is true of ALL current Hybrids) will NOT
save you money over the life of ownership, fact - read any study.  The
premium cost is too high to be made up by gas savings.  Heaven help
you should need something unique fixed.  (The AC radiator/condensor is
$750)  So, why own it.

It is the fastest production Honda Accord with 15 hp ('05) more than
the non-hybrid V6.  The Hybrid gets 29 mpg in town (and I do get about
that) and I get 34.5 mpg at 80 mph average highway and the rated 37
mpg if I average 60 - 65 mph.  The non-hybrid 05 V6 comparably
equipped, actually gets 18-22 city and 27- 32 highway.

So, I ride in luxury (the Accord starts with everything and adds
hybrid), get the best mileage of any vehicle with comparable
performance,  can comfortably transport 5 and have LOCKOUT-ABLE trunk
storage (the Prius has no secure storage when you leave it for service
or leave valuables in the "trunk").

I work around and build military hybrids and chose to own one, just to
say that I do.  Status - which is the only reason to own one - today.
That will not be the case in 5 to 10 years.

BTW:  Yes, I am hunting for some lightning bolt symbol magnets to put
on the side to flaunt that it is a hybrid,  

Honda did just fine, by me.  (except for the lack of a spare, which I
have solved - after market.)

>IMO Honda completely missed the boat on this one by going for a
>"performance hybrid".  Nobody needs even higher performance than the V-6
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>John
CC - 23 Apr 2006 17:27 GMT
"..get the best mileage of any SIMILAR SIZED vehicle with comparable
performance,..."
CC

>(Note: also posted elsewhere in the topic)
>
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
>>
>>John
 
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