 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
Car Forum / Honda Cars / July 2006Make it easier to get safety features.
It seems that if you want really good safety features with a Honda, you've got to go out and spend big bucks for a bunch of stuff you may not want or need, and I think this is unfortunate. I've got an '05 Accord LX, which I like, but it seems that the best safety features aren't available unless you drop the big change for the EX 6-cyl. I'd love to get an EX i4 with: Traction Control Stability Control Electronic Brakeforce Distribution Emergency Brake Assist, and also, DRL 4-wheel disk brakes (items not available on my '05 LX) But it looks like I'd have to also end up paying for XM radio, dual zone climate control, glass roof, etc., etc ... whether I need them or not. I think the revamped i4 has plenty of horsepower for most dedicated stick drivers, unless you happen to be hauling a carload of large adults or something. Would anyone else buy these safety features for a relative few thousand extra dollars, or am I alone in this? +-----------------------------------------+ | Charles Lasitter | Mailing/Shipping | | 401/728-1987 | 14 Cooke St | | cl+at+ncdm+dot+com | Pawtucket RI 02860 | +-----------------------------------------+ > It seems that if you want really good safety features with a Honda, > you've got to go out and spend big bucks for a bunch of stuff you may [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Would anyone else buy these safety features for a relative few thousand > extra dollars, or am I alone in this? I think you're pretty much along in this one. XM, dual-zone climate, etc. may all seem like frivolous things, but they're those kinds of features that you'll find, once you've had them a while, you'll wonder how you ever lived without them. --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0616-2, 04/18/2006 Tested on: 4/19/2006 8:30:22 AM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com > XM, dual-zone climate, etc. may all seem like frivolous things, but > they're those kinds of features that you'll find, once you've had them a > while, you'll wonder how you ever lived without them. if you have in-car XM with a subscription, can you buy a standalone unit for the house and use the same subscription? >It seems that if you want really good safety features with a Honda, >you've got to go out and spend big bucks for a bunch of stuff you may [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Traction Control Buy an extra set of wheels and switch between winter tires and summer tires. You will have all the traction control you need. >Stability Control Not sure if I would like that or not. >Electronic Brakeforce Distribution How is this different from ABS? >Emergency Brake Assist, and also, If you mean something that helps you slam on the brakes, I'l pass. I don't need a computer to second guess how much brake pressure I want to apply. >DRL Turn your headlights on. >4-wheel disk brakes (items not available on my '05 LX) Surprised that Honda is still using drum brakes on the Accord. Anyway, I don't think these add much to safety. >But it looks like I'd have to also end up paying for XM radio, dual zone >climate control, glass roof, etc., etc ... whether I need them or not. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >| cl+at+ncdm+dot+com | Pawtucket RI 02860 | >+-----------------------------------------+  Signaturesatyr #1953 Chairman, EAC Church Taxation Subcommittee Director, Gideon Bible Alternative Fuel Project Supervisor, EAC Fossil Casting Lab >> 4-wheel disk brakes (items not available on my '05 LX) > > Surprised that Honda is still using drum brakes on the Accord. > Anyway, I don't think these add much to safety. eveything ive read from people in the rust belt here indicate that rear discs arent worth it, compared to the maintenance needed on em. > eveything ive read from people in the rust belt here indicate that > rear discs arent worth it, compared to the maintenance needed on em. Anyone have stopping distances for an Accord LX model with rear disk vs drum? +-----------------------------------------+ | Charles Lasitter | Mailing/Shipping | | 401/728-1987 | 14 Cooke St | | cl+at+ncdm+dot+com | Pawtucket RI 02860 | +-----------------------------------------+ > Anyone have stopping distances for an Accord LX model with rear disk vs > drum? Not for the Accord, but http://farmindustrynews.com/mag/farming_stopping_power_2/ addresses the subject in heavy trucks and says: "Last December, ArvinMeritor brought a group of journalists to a research test track in Ohio, where the company demonstrated that drum brakes can outperform discs in a 60-mph emergency stop, if they are fitted with more powerful air chambers and larger friction material." Makes sense to me. The big performance advantage discs have over drums is fade resistance, not emergency stopping power. I've driven 4-wheel drum cars in hills enough to know what fading is like <8^O Mike > > Anyone have stopping distances for an Accord LX model with rear disk vs > > drum? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Mike As one that has been driving automobiles for over fifty years, I concur with your statement. But the biggest factor regarding safety is usually the nut behind the wheel and all the advances in technology cannot defeat stupidity. Defensive driving is what it's all about... JT >> > Anyone have stopping distances for an Accord LX model with rear disk vs >> > drum? [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > JT Oh, yeah. Backing off 5 mph on speed has wonderful effects on both the time available for reaction and on stopping distance... not to mention maneuvering stability. And just listening to that voice that says, "hey... what's happening there?" is a lifesaver. Mike >>It seems that if you want really good safety features with a Honda, >>you've got to go out and spend big bucks for a bunch of stuff you may [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Buy an extra set of wheels and switch between winter tires and summer > tires. You will have all the traction control you need. No, it's *not* the same thing. >>Stability Control > > Not sure if I would like that or not. Have you tried it? The best systems are the ones that allow some sideways movement *cough* and bring you back into line gently and without slapping your wrists. BMW manage it, at least in the UK. Mercedes, Lexus - don't. Indeed I believe the Mercedes car rings your mother to tell you how naughty you've been... >>Electronic Brakeforce Distribution > > How is this different from ABS? EBD takes over where the rear brake force valve left off. It compensates for weight in the car and allows greater rear braking effort, which can and does shorten stopping distances. One of the great compromises in car design is how to set up the brakes. For optimum braking, the valve that reduces rear braking effort should be set such that all four wheels are at the point of locking up at the same time with the same pedal effort from the driver. Manual systems are set up to be close to this (with a margin for error) when the car is one up, with some standardised conditions such as weather, tyre design and pressure. When you're five up plus luggage, the rear wheels could be braked rather more so. EBD takes care of this for you. It also takes care of unusual pressure differences, say, a front tyre being low in pressure and / or a rear being unusually high in pressure. >>Emergency Brake Assist, and also, > > If you mean something that helps you slam on the brakes, I'l pass. I > don't need a computer to second guess how much brake pressure I want > to apply. No, it doesn't quite work like this. They are set up very well. It monitors what you're doing and if it thinks you really mean to stop quicker than you are doing so, it takes over. If you accelerate firmly and then punch the brake pedal, it increases the force applied. That combined with ABS and EBD can make the difference between hitting the child that runs out in front of you and not. 99.9% of people, 99.9% of the time, won't trigger EBA. >>DRL > > Turn your headlights on. Different bulbs, different reflectors... >>4-wheel disk brakes (items not available on my '05 LX) > > Surprised that Honda is still using drum brakes on the Accord. > Anyway, I don't think these add much to safety. That may depend on where you live and how the car is driven. Driven five up in hilly terrain I can see how you'd want the greatest safety margin possible. >>But it looks like I'd have to also end up paying for XM radio, dual zone >>climate control, glass roof, etc., etc ... whether I need them or not. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >>Would anyone else buy these safety features for a relative few thousand >>extra dollars, or am I alone in this? I can see their use. Personally, I'd get somebody else to pay for them, and I'd buy the car used. SignatureThe DervMan www.dervman.com "Gordon McGrew" <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote: >> Buy an extra set of wheels and switch between winter tires >> and summer tires. You will have all the traction control you >> need. > No, it's *not* the same thing. >>> Stability Control >> Not sure if I would like that or not. > Have you tried it? The best systems are the ones that allow > some sideways movement *cough* and bring you back into line > gently and without slapping your wrists. It's the implementation of some of these systems that I'm not sure about. Ideally, I'd like for the car to wait for some slippage to occur before taking action. If it automatically jumps in based on settings from the factory and OE tires, shocks, suspension, etc., I think that could be undesirable. If it waited for an error condition to occur, then you could upgrade various things to improve cornering ability, and the system wouldn't cut you off based upon the abilities of the stock setup. >>> Electronic Brakeforce Distribution >> How is this different from ABS? > EBD takes over where the rear brake force valve left off. It > compensates for weight in the car and allows greater rear > braking effort, which can and does shorten stopping > distances. News you can use. I didn't know where it focused most of its efforts. > One of the great compromises in car design is how to set up > the brakes. For optimum braking, the valve that reduces rear > braking effort should be set such that all four wheels are > at the point of locking up at the same time with the same > pedal effort from the driver. > Manual systems are set up to be close to this (with a margin > for error) when the car is one up, with some standardised > conditions such as weather, tyre design and pressure. When > you're five up plus luggage, the rear wheels could be braked > rather more so. > EBD takes care of this for you. It also takes care of > unusual pressure differences, say, a front tyre being low in > pressure and / or a rear being unusually high in pressure. Thanks for this analysis! >>> Emergency Brake Assist, and also, >> If you mean something that helps you slam on the brakes, I'l >> pass. I don't need a computer to second guess how much brake >> pressure I want to apply. > No, it doesn't quite work like this. They are set up very > well. It monitors what you're doing and if it thinks you > really mean to stop quicker than you are doing so, it takes > over. What I have read is that in emergency braking situations, the average / untrained driver starts out by first not applying enough pedal pressure (underbraking) and then later in the stopping sequence when they're really scared they overcompensate in the other direction (overbraking). Ideally you would like optimal braking from start to finish of the braking event. http://tinyurl.com/mn9ry The vehicle has sensors to determine the emergency braking situation, and boosts breaking effort at the front end of the event for the shortest possible stopping distance. > DRL >> Turn your headlights on. > Different bulbs, different reflectors... And the wife gets an $11 insurance discount every six months for having DRL on her Subaru ... >>> 4-wheel disk brakes (items not available on my '05 LX) >> Surprised that Honda is still using drum brakes on the >> Accord. Anyway, I don't think these add much to safety. > That may depend on where you live and how the car is driven. > Driven five up in hilly terrain I can see how you'd want the > greatest safety margin possible. >>> Would anyone else buy these safety features for a relative >>> few thousand extra dollars, or am I alone in this? > I can see their use. Personally, I'd get somebody else to > pay for them, and I'd buy the car used. Well, here's an interesting discovery for me. Beginning in 2007, Honda includes so many of these features standard that the single "VS" (vehicle stability / traction) option for $650 gets you EVERYTHING. I'm going to post a Camrey LE vs Honda EX comparison because for the money, if safety is important, I think it's provocative. +-----------------------------------------+ | Charles Lasitter | Mailing/Shipping | | 401/728-1987 | 14 Cooke St | | cl+at+ncdm+dot+com | Pawtucket RI 02860 | +-----------------------------------------+ > "Gordon McGrew" <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > based on settings from the factory and OE tires, shocks, > suspension, etc., I think that could be undesirable. That's the only way it can work. It's based on an ECU and a bunch of sensors. > If it waited for an error condition to occur, then you could > upgrade various things to improve cornering ability, and the > system wouldn't cut you off based upon the abilities of the > stock setup. Erm... well yes. Stability protection cannot assume you're using standard suspension and tyres on a dry road surface. If you replace your tyres for el cheapo ones, it doesn't need to be told, it figures it out by itself. :-) Try this page on my website: www.dervman.com/eskid.htm (I think that's the direct link). >>>> Electronic Brakeforce Distribution > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Thanks for this analysis! <grins> Goodo! >>>> Emergency Brake Assist, and also, > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > later in the stopping sequence when they're really scared > they overcompensate in the other direction (overbraking). Spot on. Experienced drivers do it to. It's very hard to apply the right amount of pressure when faced with a "oh-oh" situation... > Ideally you would like optimal braking from start to finish > of the braking event. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > And the wife gets an $11 insurance discount every six months > for having DRL on her Subaru ... Hehehehe. Nice. >>>> 4-wheel disk brakes (items not available on my '05 LX) > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > I'm going to post a Camrey LE vs Honda EX comparison because for the > money, if safety is important, I think it's provocative. Yes, but for 99% of drivers, 99% of the time, airbags, stability protection, ABS, EBD and EBA is additional weight and cost. Sure, when needed it's great. I can only think of one occasion when ABS was genuinely useful in helping me avoid something under heavy braking. It doesn't help me stop, it allows some steering control when braking hard... but it doesn't prevent a skid if you brake and steer at the same time. Traction control is the same. You can still wheelspin with traction control. Those cars I've driven with stability protection, they vary. BMWs allow some oversteery antics. Mercedes don't. But you can still skid off the road. Airbags? This Accord (waves to Accord sat outside the house) has four airbags (and a broken SRS module but that's something else). My last machine was written off (www.dervman.com/kd57.htm) and the airbags were not needed, thus not used. They sat in their housing for nearly five years and when the car was lunched into a roll then hit the kerb, they didn't deploy... SignatureThe DervMan www.dervman.com > Try this page on my website: www.dervman.com/eskid.htm (I think > that's the direct link). Nice clear explanation. Thanks. >> Well, here's an interesting discovery for me. Beginning in 2007, >> Honda includes so many of these features standard that the single >> "VS" (vehicle stability / traction) option for $650 gets you >> EVERYTHING. (should have said '07 TOYOTA) >> I'm going to post a Camrey LE vs Honda EX comparison because for >> the money, if safety is important, I think it's provocative. > Yes, but for 99% of drivers, 99% of the time, airbags, stability > protection, ABS, EBD and EBA is additional weight and cost. > Sure, when needed it's great. Like fire insurance ... It's got everything to do with how risk-averse you are, how lucky you feel, how often you do stupid things on the road, etc. I'm only too happy to make a modest investment that might one day save me from my own stupidity, and just as happy when those same safety systems are never employed. I'm especially happy to have them so that I can also be protected from the stupidity of other drivers, too distracted by cell phones to stop for stop signs or traffic signals. A few years ago I was driving around Providence in a 25 MPH zone and approaching an intersection where the cross street traffic had to stop and I did not. Just before I entered the intersection a driver flashed thru it from my left doing at least 45 MPH. The 1990 van I was driving had NO airbags and would not have been able to avoid the accident if I had gotten there a couple of seconds sooner. If the situation repeats itself and I'm not so lucky next time, I REALLY want the extra protection! > I can only think of one occasion when ABS was genuinely useful in > helping me avoid something under heavy braking. It doesn't help > me stop, it allows some steering control when braking hard ... > but it doesn't prevent a skid if you brake and steer at the same > time. The first car I had with 4-wheel disc and ABS was a Nissan NX-2000. It was a cute little red car, and occasionally my wife drove it. One day a truck blew through an intersection and she had to stand on the brakes and swerve all over the place to avoid being hit. But she did it, largely because of that hammering under the brake pedal combined with the excellent maneuverability of that little sports car. > Traction control is the same. You can still wheelspin with > traction control. The fool is always greater than the proof. +-----------------------------------------+ | Charles Lasitter | Mailing/Shipping | | 401/728-1987 | 14 Cooke St | | cl+at+ncdm+dot+com | Pawtucket RI 02860 | +-----------------------------------------+ >> Try this page on my website: www.dervman.com/eskid.htm (I think >> that's the direct link). [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > It's got everything to do with how risk-averse you are, how lucky > you feel, how often you do stupid things on the road, etc. To a degree... or perhaps how much stupidity you see on the roads instead, heh. > I'm only too happy to make a modest investment that might one day > save me from my own stupidity, and just as happy when those same [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > The fool is always greater than the proof. *cough* :) SignatureThe DervMan www.dervman.com > It seems that if you want really good safety features with a Honda, > you've got to go out and spend big bucks for a bunch of stuff you may > not want or need, and I think this is unfortunate. The new Camry has all these features as either standard or as a stand-alone option (traction control/stability control is not in a bundle). That should force Honda to do the same with the next Accord. Honda will probably make all that stuff standard across the Accord lineup. I wonder whether or not Honda will offer AWD on the next Accord. I'd be surprised if AWD isn't offered on the next TL (all TL competitors offer AWD) and since the Accord and TL share a platform... > The new Camry has all these features as either standard or as a > stand-alone option (traction control/stability control is not in a > bundle). I have to say a big THANK YOU for pointing this out. With the Camry SE it looks like you get a lot stock and a lot more with one optional package. I can't tell for sure, but it looks like the '05 LX came with some air bags that you had to buy as an option with the '06 Camry SE. Otherwise .... Added "no charge" (mostly safety) features over '05 LX: solid rear disc brakes (vs drum) daytime running lights electronic brakeforce distribution dusk sensing headlamps tire pressure monitoring front fog/driving lights With the "UG" VSC & Side Airbag Package ($1,300 list) Vehicle stability control traction control brake assist And the addition of these airbags, which I don't know quite how to compare to the stock '05 Honda: front side airbags front and rear curtain airbags. > That should force Honda to do the same with the next Accord. Honda > will probably make all that stuff standard across the Accord lineup. Lets hope! +-----------------------------------------+ | Charles Lasitter | Mailing/Shipping | | 401/728-1987 | 14 Cooke St | | cl+at+ncdm+dot+com | Pawtucket RI 02860 | +-----------------------------------------+ >>The new Camry has all these features as either standard or as a >>stand-alone option (traction control/stability control is not in a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > With the Camry SE it looks like you get a lot stock and a lot more with > one optional package. The SE is a pretty nice unit. I test drove one a few days ago. The new Camry nose is damn ugly, but the black-out grill on the SE even helps a little with that. In the end I bought an Acura TSX this time around, partly because Toyota dealers are still very proud of their new Camry (high prices). I also checked out the latest Toyota Navigation system in the '07 Camry and it seemed very well done indeed. In fact, it is the only one I have seen which is as good as or even better than the latest Honda/Acura Navi sytems. Ever since getting Navi on my '03 Accord it has become something of a must-have feature for a new vehicle purchase. My wife liked my Accord so much that she insisted I give it to her and get myself something else :). John > The SE is a pretty nice unit. I test drove one a few days ago. The new > Camry nose is damn ugly, i think that has to do with "pedestrian safety", big in europe. >> The SE is a pretty nice unit. I test drove one a few days ago. The new >> Camry nose is damn ugly, > > i think that has to do with "pedestrian safety", big in europe. I still maintain that PAR would be much prettier... pedestrian avoidance radar... :-) SignatureThe DervMan www.dervman.com >>>The SE is a pretty nice unit. I test drove one a few days ago. The new >>>Camry nose is damn ugly, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I still maintain that PAR would be much prettier... pedestrian avoidance > radar... :-) Pah, let's just use the low tech cowcatcher. Worked on the RR's for decades. > The SE is a pretty nice unit. I test drove one a few days ago. The new > Camry nose is damn ugly, Thank you! I looked at one on the lot Saturday and that was the immediate impression I got. Don't they have anyone to help with their styling? +-----------------------------------------+ | Charles Lasitter | Mailing/Shipping | | 401/728-1987 | 14 Cooke St | | cl+at+ncdm+dot+com | Pawtucket RI 02860 | +-----------------------------------------+ >Would anyone else buy these safety features for a relative few thousand >extra dollars, or am I alone in this? I'm happy with my ABS, wish I didn't have to shell out for air bags, and not entirely convinced on some of the other hifalutin features. Marketing-wise, it's hard for a manufacturer to put safety features on just the high-zoot models, so they put them on only the high-zoot marques instead. Until stuff gets really cheap like ABS has. I'd also like back the $50 or so it costs me for the cruise control, which I've never used and probably never will, and really, who does? J. >>Would anyone else buy these safety features for a relative few thousand >>extra dollars, or am I alone in this? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I'd also like back the $50 or so it costs me for the cruise control, > which I've never used and probably never will, and really, who does? All the time. In the UK. SignatureThe DervMan www.dervman.com >>Would anyone else buy these safety features for a relative few thousand >>extra dollars, or am I alone in this? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I'd also like back the $50 or so it costs me for the cruise control, > which I've never used and probably never will, and really, who does? I do, a lot, I have trouble keeping my speed down on certain roads, e.g., Palisades Interstate Parkway, so I engage cruise control at a speed low enough to skate by the troopers whenever possible. > It seems that if you want really good safety features with a Honda, > you've got to go out and spend big bucks for a bunch of stuff you may [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Would anyone else buy these safety features for a relative few thousand > extra dollars, or am I alone in this? It's something that has been happening for an age and I suspect it will continue to do so. Thinking back to the introduction of ABS into "ordinary" cars in the UK, it was for a long time reserved for the luxury or sporty ends of the specification scale. It took a long time (five years) for it to be standard across most Contour / Accord / Mondeo sized cars, some manufacturers adopted it before others of course. It wasn't quite the same with airbags, these literally arrived overnight in 1993 / 1994. I don't believe it'll change. Such "value added" features are great margin improvements. You don't think it actually costs 60% more to build the sporty model compared to the base one do you? <g> SignatureThe DervMan www.dervman.com >It seems that if you want really good safety features with a Honda, >you've got to go out and spend big bucks for a bunch of stuff you may [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Traction Control ive had this in a van for the last 5 months. Might be ust chrysler's system, but it doesn't work too well for me, still get a loud tyre squeal if I floor it to merge traffic. Nowadays I just turn it off when I start the car. >Stability Control >Electronic Brakeforce Distribution >Emergency Brake Assist, and also, i HATE this. Teach proper braking practice, not compensate for driver inadequacy. i remember a few news stories from the UK a few years back, where these kicked in uneqpectedly. guy tapped hi brakes because he saw a speed camera ahead, just to chek his speed (as we all do) and the thing did an emergency stop, causing a 3 car accident (car was turning at the time). There were another case or two as well. Until the car can sense the situation around it (not easy or praticable) it should NOT have overriding command of motive systems. Thats just plain common sense. >DRL see your headlight switch - wire the first stop, so it'll also be triggered by the ignition. if key's at II, lights are on - much better than that stupid way saturn has of working off the handbrake - friend's vue has its DRL going off every time he stops 9its a manual, and he is n a hilly area, and drives properly, with handbrakes at lights etc) volvo did it right years ago. if you use your regular lights for daytime running, you don't need all the lights and reflectors etc. just run from the ignition. >4-wheel disk brakes (items not available on my '05 LX) > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Would anyone else buy these safety features for a relative few thousand >extra dollars, or am I alone in this? i wouldn't. I've not even a big ABS fan. i guess the problems is that mostly these featurse are not set up as 'emergency' but as 'cautionary'. So they're on be default, and set to activate much too soon. Of course, there are SOMe safety features I'd love to see introduced into the UK thats been standard elsewhere for years. REAR fog lights, for instance. Oh, and seperation of brake and turning signals. removal of turning signals from being buried in with headlights (see certain neons, and current crown-vics for instance. Don't get me wrong, I'm no luddite 9in fact, quite the opopsite) but i do know where technology should not be substituted for driver shortcommings. instead of whacking more tech on, hold the drivers to a higher standard. >+-----------------------------------------+ >| Charles Lasitter | Mailing/Shipping | >| 401/728-1987 | 14 Cooke St | >| cl+at+ncdm+dot+com | Pawtucket RI 02860 | >+-----------------------------------------+ >>It seems that if you want really good safety features with a Honda, >>you've got to go out and spend big bucks for a bunch of stuff you may [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > squeal if I floor it to merge traffic. Nowadays I just turn it off > when I start the car. Some systems are designed to prevent oversteer in corners, but nothing can overcome the basic laws of phsyics. For the system to work you have to skid a little, that's how it spots you're skidding. Some tyres make a louder racket than others. >>Stability Control >>Electronic Brakeforce Distribution [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the thing did an emergency stop, causing a 3 car accident (car was > turning at the time). There were another case or two as well. The system is not triggered if you "tap the brakes." If you aggressively punch the pedal then it triggers, but as soon as you lift off, it lets go too. It uses a certain element of logic too, working on what your other controls are doing, what they've just been doing, how much force and how hard you push the pedal, so on and so forth. Tapping the brake pedal doesn't trigger it. You have to jack on the anchors with lots of force. Actually if the guy was an idiot and was hammering along then punched the pedal, he caused the crash in conjunction with the other chuffs behind. > Until the car can sense the situation around it (not easy or > praticable) it should NOT have overriding command of motive systems. > Thats just plain common sense. It doesn't. It augments what the driver does. I've played with all sorts of electronic systems. Some can be fooled pretty easily. Accelerate hard then brake firmly and the Mercedes EBA is triggered. Tapping the brakes doesn't trigger it. >>DRL > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > lights for daytime running, you don't need all the lights and > reflectors etc. just run from the ignition. One problem with this solution is power consumption, which in turn is linked to fuel consumption. Running 110 watts of bulb uses up more than running 24 watts of bulb and does make an appreciable difference to motion lotion. Thanks to the wonders of carbon credits, every part mile per gallon is starting to count. And the other issue of wearing out the wretched things. How many Volvos do you see with one headlight working? >>4-wheel disk brakes (items not available on my '05 LX) >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > shortcommings. instead of whacking more tech on, hold the drivers to a > higher standard. I agree, but I suspect we both know it's not going to be possible to achieve this. As for ABS, two sides of the coin. On the one hand, yeah it keeps you pointing in the right direction when you stand on the brakes. On the other, there are idiots that believe it shortens their stopping distance and thus tailgate and drive too fast. Way too many British people don't have the foggiest on how to use high visibility lights (front fog, rear fog lamps). Some idiots put *everything* on either to look cool or at the merest hint of rain. Other chumps keep everything off until it's dark... SignatureThe DervMan www.dervman.com >>>It seems that if you want really good safety features with a Honda, >>>you've got to go out and spend big bucks for a bunch of stuff you may [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >controls are doing, what they've just been doing, how much force and how >hard you push the pedal, so on and so forth. thats the point. it was a system fault. Wouldn't, couldn't happen with standard brakes, can with the EBA stuff. THATS the point. >Tapping the brake pedal doesn't trigger it. You have to jack on the anchors >with lots of force. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >It doesn't. It augments what the driver does. read what you just said. It augments. how does it know it needs augmenting. can it see why you're slowing? no, it can't. Right below this you yourself say how you can fool these systems. If they can be triggered into reacting inappropriately, why would you call that a safety system. We have a driver, a control system that samples the data all arond the vehicle 9or is supposed to) and makes edcisions based on whats going on around the vehicular unit. Is the car dong the same? if not, how can it tell if the braking force needs 'augmenting'. Friend of mine was involved with the Darpa grand challenge. one of the problems they faced was braking - getting the braking force suitable for the enviroment. it all depends on how far you have to stop, if you intend to stop or just slow down, is avoidance needed, what surface you're on, how you're loaded. no car on the market can tell any of that. It could tell the mass you're carrying, but is that load in the back a wardrobe, or half a tank of tropical fish, or 10 8ft sheets of plastic. Are you stoping because there's a child just run out, you've just spotted a cop with a radar gun, or the lights you were hoping to make just turned red. Is it rainy, there snow, or sand on the road. If it can't tell, how can it adapt. I could be braking, be just shy of the braking limit for the conditions, but EBA thinks I meant to break harder, so it presses harder, oops lockup, now thats the ABS kicking in, thats longer stopping, less control, all for a system that think sit knows better. Dangerous? I should cocoa. >I've played with all sorts of electronic systems. Some can be fooled pretty >easily. Accelerate hard then brake firmly and the Mercedes EBA is >triggered. Tapping the brakes doesn't trigger it. not when its working 100%. If you've lpayed with electronic systems, you shoud know they're some of the most tempramental and fragile things out there. They're also good at going wrong and giving no hint of it until its too late. >>>DRL >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >And the other issue of wearing out the wretched things. How many Volvos do >you see with one headlight working? Great, you assume the headlight bulbs are the ones used. not so, I said the firststop. in the Us, thats the orange 'running lights', as you should know the volvos in the UK used those small 11W sidelights. dipped beam is the 55W elements, which are the second stop on the headlight rocker. As a brit, i'm sure you appreciate the difference between them - turn your lights on, turn the ignition off, and take your keys out - should just be your sidelights that are left on. >>>4-wheel disk brakes (items not available on my '05 LX) >>> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >there are idiots that believe it shortens their stopping distance and thus >tailgate and drive too fast. nope, doesn't keep you opointing in any direction. it just increases the chance that you will be able to steer. in many cases, ABS won't stop you sliding at all. in some, it'll actualy make you spin. >Way too many British people don't have the foggiest on how to use high >visibility lights (front fog, rear fog lamps). Some idiots put *everything* >on either to look cool or at the merest hint of rain. Other chumps keep >everything off until it's dark... again, as I said, don't use technology to compensate for stupidity. The only way to beat that is education. >>>>It seems that if you want really good safety features with a Honda, >>>>you've got to go out and spend big bucks for a bunch of stuff you may [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > thats the point. it was a system fault. Wouldn't, couldn't happen with > standard brakes, can with the EBA stuff. THATS the point. EBA doesn't do it. Period. It would not be allowed to be used if it caused accidents like this. Imagine the law suits? >>Tapping the brake pedal doesn't trigger it. You have to jack on the >>anchors [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > read what you just said. It augments. how does it know it needs > augmenting. can it see why you're slowing? no, it can't. You're suggesting that we shouldn't bother with power assisted steering and servo-assisted brakes. These also augment the driver control input in *exactly* the same way. > Right below > this you yourself say how you can fool these systems. If they can be > triggered into reacting inappropriately, why would you call that a > safety system. No, they're not acting inappropriately. They're doing what they're designed. But they are unable to bend the laws of phsyics. If I barrel into Silverstone's Maggots at 95 mph, brake hard as the road drops, the back end will waggle. It'll usually break away. The stability protection is of limited use when the rear wheels are not in proper contact with the tarmac. > We have a driver, a control system that samples the data all arond the > vehicle 9or is supposed to) and makes edcisions based on whats going > on around the vehicular unit. Is the car dong the same? if not, how > can it tell if the braking force needs 'augmenting'. That's where the fuzzy logic is involved. It's 2FC/2, i.e., very clever stuff. But it works from what the driver does. See my other comment about power assisted steering. > Friend of mine > was involved with the Darpa grand challenge. one of the problems they [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > the braking limit for the conditions, but EBA thinks I meant to break > harder, No. In isolation it doesn't work this way *unless* you're on a racing circuit and you know exactly how much pressure to apply and when, thus you can thump the pedal to achieve maximum retardation and you do it very quickly. On the road, only fools thump the brake pedal without wishing to stop in a hurry. It knows the difference between quick and firm rolling on the pressure and a sudden thump. That's what the system spots. Most fools quickly learn that if they thump the pedal of a car with EBA it stops quicker than they *first* anticipated. The first time one drives a new car, we learn stuff about it. Say it has a quicker steering rack. We may oversteer the first one or two corners. Then we learn. It's precisely the same with *any* situation. First time I triggered the ABS in our Ka was a learning experience. Second time I knew what to expect. > so it presses harder, oops lockup, now thats the ABS kicking > in, thats longer stopping, less control, all for a system that think > sit knows better. Herein is precisely why the driver in the circumstances needs to be educated or at least try it. As for the stopping distance and control argument, stopping distances are slightly longer with the ABS humming away than a skilled driver without ABS in ideal circumstances. I don't know of any driver than can hold a car at the point just before lock up in an emergency situation such as the ones you've described. > Dangerous? I should cocoa. No more so than servo assisted brakes. Nothing an experiment can't get over. I don't understand your concerns. It is as though you don't want to learn about these new fangled power brakes and what not... >>I've played with all sorts of electronic systems. Some can be fooled >>pretty >>easily. Accelerate hard then brake firmly and the Mercedes EBA is >>triggered. Tapping the brakes doesn't trigger it. > > not when its working 100%. No manufacturer allows a system such as this that doesn't work to go on production machines. > If you've lpayed with electronic systems, > you shoud know they're some of the most tempramental and fragile > things out there. They're also good at going wrong and giving no hint > of it until its too late. EBA fails safe. It deactivates. That and a whole bunch of warning lights. >>>>DRL >>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Great, you assume the headlight bulbs are the ones used. Ermmmm they are on the Volvo S60... > not so, I > said the firststop. in the Us, thats the orange 'running lights', as > you should know the volvos in the UK used those small 11W sidelights. Nope. > dipped beam is the 55W elements, which are the second stop on the > headlight rocker. As a brit, i'm sure you appreciate the difference > between them - turn your lights on, turn the ignition off, and take > your keys out - should just be your sidelights that are left on. Ooooh I live in the UK, yeah, but being British...? That's something else. >>>>4-wheel disk brakes (items not available on my '05 LX) >>>> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > nope, doesn't keep you opointing in any direction. In the absence of steering input, ABS keeps you pointing in the right direction because no locked wheel or prolonged change in braking effort from one or more tyres causes a yaw action. www.dervman.com/ttwg.htm > it just increases > the chance that you will be able to steer. in many cases, ABS won't > stop you sliding at all. in some, it'll actualy make you spin. Only if the driver cannot control the car. And that's why we have so many stability control applications out there... >>Way too many British people don't have the foggiest on how to use high >>visibility lights (front fog, rear fog lamps). Some idiots put [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > again, as I said, don't use technology to compensate for stupidity. > The only way to beat that is education. Agreed. Except even the stupid get driving licences. SignatureThe DervMan www.dervman.com |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2008 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.