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Car Forum / Honda Cars / May 2006Can I get my money back?
Last night I went into a Honda dealer and agreed to purchase a new car. I really wanted to pay at most $300 a month, over 5 years, but the dealer said that would not be possible because of the overall cost of the car.The initial quote the dealer gave me was $395 a month for 5 years. I said that was too much.Then he asked "Could you do $330 a month?" and I said ok. . I thought he meant $330 a month for 5 years. Wouldn't you? . So,as I was going over the contract when I went home, the contract said over a period of 6 years, not 5. I had told the dealer that I could not do 6 years and yet, that was what was on the contract. I was so tired last night that I do not know how I could have signed the contract. Anyway, this morning, I went back to the dealer and told them that I did not realize that it stated 6 years, after we had discussed 5 years.The thing is, I had made a $1000 deposit, which I was told is non-refundable if, after they order the car and it comes in in 2-3 weeks, I decide I don't want it anymore. I would get back the money if after ordering the car and it arrives, I take the car. Listen, I ordered the car last night and I went back to the dealer this morning,less than 12 hours after. The car won't be at the dealership til 2-3 weeks. Why can't I get the money back? Is that legal for them to keep it, when I was told that I would NOT get it back AFTER the car arrives and I decide I don't want it anymore? I cant imagine a reputable dealer that would not return your money after 12 hours and you have not picked up the car. I would head for the general managers office or the dealer owner. They have tried to pull some funny business with you and were not successful. I would tell them to refund my money or my next call will be to the Better Business Bureau. Let us know how you come out. Scott >I cant imagine a reputable dealer that would not return your money after 12 >hours and you have not picked up the car. I would head for the general [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >to the Better Business Bureau. Let us know how you come out. > Scott Do you think that if I stop the check, they will take me to Collections for it? That is another matter that I couln't be bothered with. I know I don't want the car anymore because I was deceived. >I cant imagine a reputable dealer that would not return your money after 12 >hours and you have not picked up the car. I would head for the general [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >to the Better Business Bureau. Let us know how you come out. > Scott Thanks a lot. I will let you know on Monday; that's when the manager will be at work. Wanted to stop the check, but it might not be such a good idea. > zonie wrote: >>I cant imagine a reputable dealer that would not return [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > at work. Wanted to stop the check, but it might not be > such a good idea. I would not rule stopping the check out. It would depend on whether there was anything in writing concerning the deposit, and how obnoxious they had been so far. Also, whether there is another dealer near you with whom you can work. >>I cant imagine a reputable dealer that would not return your money after >>12 [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > be > at work. Wanted to stop the check, but it might not be such a good idea. When ever you go into a dealer, don't fall into the "what payments do you want" trap. Work out the best price for the car first, then work out financing. >>I cant imagine a reputable dealer that would not return your money after >>12 [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > be > at work. Wanted to stop the check, but it might not be such a good idea. BTW, in many states, you have the right to withdraw on the deal within 72 hours. Does the contract itself say anything about the terms of the deposit? Things you don't have going for you: You signed a contract, indicating you had read it. Things going for you: Barely a day has gone by. Demand to see the salesperson's supervisor, then his/her supervisor, and on up. Tell them what happened. Explain you will tell everyone you know what happened and that you will not bring your car there for service, nor will you ever buy another car from them. Do not trust anything that comes out of the salesperson's mouth. Get any promises in writing. Read the April issue of Consumer Reports for tips on buying a new car. Also, google for tips on doing so. If a person goes in unarmed to a dealership, the person will be sharkmeat. There is nothing like the car business as far as unethical, dishonest, practices go. > Last night I went into a Honda dealer and agreed to > purchase a new car. I [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > NOT get it back AFTER the car arrives and I decide I don't > want it anymore? >Does the contract itself say anything about the terms of the >deposit? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >happened and that you will not bring your car there for >service, nor will you ever buy another car from them. Thanks for yor help >Do not trust anything that comes out of the salesperson's >mouth. Get any promises in writing. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> NOT get it back AFTER the car arrives and I decide I don't >> want it anymore? | Last night I went into a Honda dealer and agreed to purchase a new car. I | really wanted to pay at most $300 a month, over 5 years, but the dealer said [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] | money back? Is that legal for them to keep it, when I was told that I would | NOT get it back AFTER the car arrives and I decide I don't want it anymore? If the deal involves applying for financing and dealer is made aware of that, then if the application for financing falls through, you may have an out. There's a cancellation provision in the law for failed financing. At if you are stuck with it, however, you are probably getting a signficantly better vehicle since it's worth $4,000 more. Considering Hondas hold up well on resale, you'll get a chunk of that back later. Until then, you'll be driving a nicer vehicle than you originally wanted to buy. Be happy and charge it to experience. >| Last night I went into a Honda dealer and agreed to purchase a new car. I >| really wanted to pay at most $300 a month, over 5 years, but the dealer said [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Be happy and charge it to experience. I won't be driving a nicer vehicle than I originally wanted to buy. It's the original car, just more payments. I really am stressing over this. How can I be happy when I have $1000 on the line and I KNOW I don't want to pay so much for the car. I cannot afford to. ">> >>If the deal involves applying for financing and dealer is made aware of >>that, then if the >>application for financing falls through, you may have an out. There's a >>cancellation >>provision in the law for failed financing. Here's another idea: Pull the money out of the account and force the check to bounce; pay the bounced check fee's. wouldn't that force the financing to fall through? There's probably holes it this way's logic; and I'd probably just follow Michael's advise; and cancel the check-- but hey, this teaches us all a good lesson. Steve > ">> >>>If the deal involves applying for financing and dealer is made aware of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > check to bounce; pay the bounced check fee's. wouldn't that force the > financing to fall through? That would be criminal check fraud. > There's probably holes it this way's logic; and I'd probably just follow > Michael's advise; and cancel the check-- but hey, this teaches us all a > good lesson. > > Steve >> Here's another idea: Pull the money out of the account and force the >> check to bounce; pay the bounced check fee's. wouldn't that force the >> financing to fall through? > > That would be criminal check fraud. Yes probably so; just looking for loopholes real or created Steve >Last night I went into a Honda dealer and agreed to purchase a new car. I >really wanted to pay at most $300 a month, over 5 years, but the dealer said [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >money back? Is that legal for them to keep it, when I was told that I would >NOT get it back AFTER the car arrives and I decide I don't want it anymore? Cancel the check and call the dealer's general manager. Let him know that you are not happy and feel that you were deceived about the loan terms. If he gets tough, tell him that you will call the better business bureau, your state's attorney general office, and the local newspaper or TV station. The worst thing that can happen is that you will have to write another check and take the car. Once that check clears you will have to go to court to get your money. If the check has cleared, small claims court will be you best option. A lawyer once told me there was no such thing as a non-refundable deposit. Depending on your state, you might have certain legal rights that will make it a cut and dry matter. Some states have a 3 day buyers remorse period. Last but not least. Never tell a dealer how mush you want to spend. Never go on a car lot without knowing what you want, how much to pay for it, and pre-arranged financing. When you openly shop based upon a payment amount, you are doomed to over pay for the car and finance options. Good luck and don't be afraid of these guys. >>Last night I went into a Honda dealer and agreed to purchase a new car. I >>really wanted to pay at most $300 a month, over 5 years, but the dealer said [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >Good luck and don't be afraid of these guys. Thanks a lot. > Last night I went into a Honda dealer and agreed to purchase a new car. > I [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > NOT get it back AFTER the car arrives and I decide I don't want it > anymore? It depends on where you are. Here in Arizona there is a 3 business day "buyer's remorse" period that attaches to all purchase contracts. A friend was subjected to about the same thing several years ago, when he stated no more than $200 per month for no more than 48 months. The salesweasel shot him over a dozen proposals that were either too much money or too many months. Ultimately the snake came up with a contract and went over the terms as he pointed them out: just under $200 per month for 48 months. The problem: the contract actually said 60 months, and my friend didn't notice that until the financing finalized a week later. He called the Attorney General's office and was advised to go back and try to work it out with a friend present... that was me. Predictably, the dealer sent person after person back to work him over various ways over a period of two hours. The breakthrough came when I offered to take him home so he could leave the car there until it was settle in court. The dealer found it very unnerving that I would not say exactly what our relationship was and that I was the one talking about fraud, rather than their customer. Eventually they renegotiated to match his stated requirements. Anyway, a call to your state's Attorney General office should give you some good advice. In the meantime, I suggest you send a letter by registered mail to the dealer ASAP explaining why you feel the contract was made under duress and that you want to rescind your agreement. Note that they have not delivered the vehicle and you do not intend to take delivery until the situation is remedied. Having that on record can't hurt. Or there is the direct action approach I found one woman taking: picketing on the sidewalk in front of the dealership with a sign saying they mistreated you when you bought a car. Remember - stay on public property and keep moving (so you aren't loitering). Somebody will be out *very* soon, I guarantee it. Don't be intimidated, and if a policeman shows up follow his directions. Mike >> Last night I went into a Honda dealer and agreed to purchase a new car. >> I [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > >Mike Thanks alot. Do you think it will be wise to canncel the check? Maybe I should go that route. I live in NC and unfortunately, I can't get in contact with a lawyer before Monday morning- that's when I KNOW the dealer will be taking the check to the bank. Don't want to run the risk of '"waiting too late." >>> Last night I went into a Honda dealer and agreed to purchase a new car. >>> I [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >taking the check to the bank. Don't want to run the risk of '"waiting too >late." Who is the dealer and what is the NC city? >>Anyway, a call to your state's Attorney General office should give you >>some [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > taking the check to the bank. Don't want to run the risk of '"waiting too > late." It is a drastic step since you need a solid reason to cancel it, but if done in conjunction with the letter it is probably a good idea. It would be hard to get the deposit back otherwise, and doing so will jam up the works on the contract you want to nullify. The sooner the better on that. Mike > Thanks alot. Do you think it will be wise to canncel the check? Maybe I > should go that route. I live in NC and unfortunately, I can't get in contact > with a lawyer before Monday morning- that's when I KNOW the dealer will be > taking the check to the bank. Don't want to run the risk of '"waiting too > late." If the dealer decided to cancel the contract they would probably still keep the deposit. Or was that the down payment? Are you planning to keep the car for more than 5 or 6 years. After a few years or when the warranty expires you could trade in the car for a newer one. 1) "STOP PAYMENT" on your check if it's not to late! 2) Call the "BBB" and ask for their advice. 3) Call Honda and tell them your story. 4) If all else fails you have the right to take the vehicle for a test drive when it comes in "BEFORE" you pay any more money. Take it for a ride and tell them it's not acceptable. It doesn't handle the way the demo did, it seems to vibrate, you see defects in the paint, the brakes don't feel right, the transmission feels like it's slipping, it doesn't have the power the demo had, and on and on. You have the right to test drive the vehicle when it comes in and reject it if for any reason. Then tell them you can't wait any longer for a car and you have decided to put some money into the car you have and make it last a little longer. RUN FROM THIS DEALER AND NEVER GO BACK! Al >>> Last night I went into a Honda dealer and agreed to purchase a new car. >>> I [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > taking the check to the bank. Don't want to run the risk of '"waiting too > late." If they don't deliver the right car (to your satisfaction) on time they have to refund your deposit! Al > 1) "STOP PAYMENT" on your check if it's not to late! > [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] >> taking the check to the bank. Don't want to run the risk of '"waiting too >> late." > 1) "STOP PAYMENT" on your check if it's not to late! > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Al I know that sounds underhanded, but considering the dealer's tactics it isn't out of line. It also sounds like it has a good chance of working if it goes that far - the snakes wanted to make a quick buck, and if it turns into a big headache for them they will welcome a way out. Being a jerk isn't illegal. Mike >Last night I went into a Honda dealer and agreed to purchase a new car. I >really wanted to pay at most $300 a month, over 5 years, but the dealer said [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >money back? Is that legal for them to keep it, when I was told that I would >NOT get it back AFTER the car arrives and I decide I don't want it anymore? Can you get any written acknolegement from the dealer that you want out of the deal? If not, call the police and file a fraud report. They won't do anything with it but it will give you a trime stamp. Most states have a cooling off period (typically 72 hours) and your time is running out. You could also call a lawyer but that might be more than the grand the dealer has. I bet it is too late to stop payment on the check. Those things usually clear overnight, no matter what your bank tells you. >>Last night I went into a Honda dealer and agreed to purchase a new car. I >>really wanted to pay at most $300 a month, over 5 years, but the dealer said [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >I bet it is too late to stop payment on the check. Those things >usually clear overnight, no matter what your bank tells you. The check is still at the dealer. I saw it.They can't do anything with it til Monday because the banks are closed til Monday. I will call the police dept. right now. At least I will have something on record. Thanks. > Can you get any written acknolegement from the dealer that > you want > out of the deal? If not, call the police and file a fraud > report. Fraud is usually a basis in civil action, not criminal one. After all, it's the OP's word against the dealer's that they lied to her; it's still the OP's fault that she chose not to carefully read the contract; no one held a gun to her head and tortured her into signing the contract before reading it carefully. (I'm not saying the car dealer was honest. I'm saying they didn't commit any obvious crime of which I am aware. Indeed, they car dealership could say to the police, or anyone, that the OP lied, and that it is she trying to steal from them! The dealership has something in writing. The OP has... her word against theirs.) The OP can ask, but if the police tell her they can do nothing, and suggest maybe instead hiring a lawyer, don't be surprised. As someone else pointed out, your state may have a law that allows you to cancel any business transaction within three business days of signing the contract. > As someone else pointed out, your state may have a law that allows you to > cancel any business transaction within three business days of signing the > contract. I heard is doesn't apply to autos because people would purchase a car, take it for a joyride for a couple of days and cancel the contract. >> As someone else pointed out, your state may have a law that allows you to >> cancel any business transaction within three business days of signing the >> contract. > > I heard is doesn't apply to autos because people would purchase a car, > take it for a joyride for a couple of days and cancel the contract. Dunno about other places, but it definitely applies to cars here in Arizona. A contract is a contract here, and car dealers are not held in any special regard. Mike >> As someone else pointed out, your state may have a law that allows you to >> cancel any business transaction within three business days of signing the >> contract. > > I heard is doesn't apply to autos because people would purchase a car, > take it for a joyride for a couple of days and cancel the contract. Once you take the vehicle it is no longer a contract, rather a completed transaction so that doesn't apply in the case(s) we are talking about. What you are talking about is buying a car and returning it. > Once you take the vehicle it is no longer a contract, rather a completed > transaction so that doesn't apply in the case(s) we are talking about. What > you are talking about is buying a car and returning it. Thanks for the clarity. Doesn't apply because the car has not been delivered, it's on order. Al >> As someone else pointed out, your state may have a law that allows you to >> cancel any business transaction within three business days of signing the >> contract. > > I heard is doesn't apply to autos because people would purchase a car, > take it for a joyride for a couple of days and cancel the contract. Honda dealers do not order cars per your request. All cars are allocated weeks if not months in advance. The car you want is probably already allocated to the dealer and he will earmark that car for you when it comes in. He DID NOT order an additional car just for you. He is just preselling what he has scheduled to arrive. If he didn't sell it to you, he would sell it to someone else, either before it arrived or it would sit on the lot until sold. In essence, he didn't dpend any more time or energy or money to get your car. Howard > Last night I went into a Honda dealer and agreed to purchase a new car. > I [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > NOT get it back AFTER the car arrives and I decide I don't want it > anymore? Chances are you can get out of the contract if you go to the dealer on Monday AM and inform him in writing that you want out of the deal. Most states have a buyer remorse law that allows 3 business days to cancel a contract. The info on this should have been in the paperwork you signed......you did read the paperwork, right? Here's the bad news. The $1,000 deposit is generally not refundable. Most dealers will give it back as a good will service, but they don't have to. It should have been made clear to you at the time you made out the check that the deposit was to "hold" the car, and if you didn't take delivery of the car within a specified period of time, you forfeit the deposit. This is pretty much standard practice. I wouldn't put a stop payment on the check, as the dealer may be able to come back at you for fraud if you do, and then don't take the car. If your state has no buyer remorse statute, you are pretty much S.O.L. After all, you did sign the papers, and probably one of the papers you signed was to verify that you understood the contract. Here's some free advice: Don't ever sign anything you don't read, understand fully, and agree with. Ever! Don't ever negotiate a car purchase based on monthly payments. Negotiate on purchase price, and figure the monthly payments after a price has been agreed to. If the salesperson continues to talk only in terms of monthly payments, get up and walk out. They'll call you back, and if they don't, there are plenty of other dealers. Always try to have an alternative source of financing such as a bank or credit union. It sounds to me like you can't really afford this car, and if you had consulted with a loan officer at a lending institution, you would have been so informed, and saved youself a lot of grief. My advice is to either negate the contract by legal means, if available in your state, (you should be looking that up on the internet right now), or simply refuse delivery of the car and eat the deposit. Remembering the $1,000 loss will make you more careful in the future. Life is tough, my friend, and proceeding through it wit blinders on makes it even tougher. Tell the dealer you are going to get a parade permit and stand with a sign in front of the dealership all weekend exposing that they are crooks. > Last night I went into a Honda dealer and agreed to purchase a new car. > I [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > NOT get it back AFTER the car arrives and I decide I don't want it > anymore? > I thought he > meant $330 a month for 5 years. Wouldn't you? . Yeah. And then I'd read the contract before I signed it. When it said something different, I wouldn't sign. > So,as I was going over the > contract when I went home, You went over the contract AFTER you signed it and not before???? You just learned a very valuable lesson. When you bought a home, did you involve a lawyer? >> I thought he >> meant $330 a month for 5 years. Wouldn't you? . [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >When you bought a home, did you involve a lawyer? I had to involve a lawyer when I bought a home. Do people usually get lawyers when they are purchasing a car? I have learned a valubale lesson indeed. I did put a stop payment on the check, so let's see what's going to happen. >>> I thought he >>> meant $330 a month for 5 years. Wouldn't you? . [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > I have learned a valubale lesson indeed. I did put a stop payment on the > check, so let's see what's going to happen. The cops might visit you. Stopping payment on a check can be a crime if it was planned. On the otherhand it is only a contract dipute if it was not premeditated. If the cops stop by tell them you realized they lied to you about what the contract said and that is why you stopped payment. Here's how that $1,000 deposit works. The dealer requests it as insurance that you will go through with the sale, subject to approval of financing. If financing falls through, there is no deal, and you get the deposit back. If financing does go through, you will get the $1,000 back. Most people apply it to the down payment. If you refuse delivery of the car, and there is nothing wrong with it, you forfeit the $1,000. By stopping payment on the check, you have, in effect, committed fraud, and if the dealer pushes it, you will indeed be visited by the police, who will give you a court summons. You will do your explaining to a judge, not to a cop. If I were the dealer, I would simply drop it and send you to see my most hated competitor. FWIW, you don't really have to give the dealer a deposit. Last new car I bought was a Subaru in 1998. After I test drove the car we settled on a price, but no papers were signed, as I wanted to pursue my own financing, and let my wife try the car prior to final sale. He wanted a $1,000 deposit to "hold" the car for 14 days. I told him if he could sell the car before I made up my mind, to go for it. I'd simply buy another one from another dealer. I wound up buying the car and never gave him a deposit. Another time, a dealer wanted a $1,000 deposit, and I told him all I had with me was $100, and I didn't have my checkbook. He accepted the $100. It appears to me you're not well versed in the ways of the world, as you keep compounding your mistakes. Stopping payment on that check was not the smart thing to do. Hopefully, ther dealer will see this as not worth the bother, and drop it. I really hope that's what happens. I'm guessing you are young. If I'm right, get an older friend or relative to go with you when you make a major purchase like a car. And for God's sake, don't go on the internet asking for advice from a bunch of strangers that don't know any more than you do. > And for God's > sake, don't go on the internet asking for advice from a > bunch of > strangers that don't know any more than you do. Posting to an internet public forum often elicits many, valuable responses. Is it not the ultimate marketplace of ideas, after all? And isn't give and take in ideas the surest way to greater truths? In particular, fora like this one produce priceless anecdotal experiences that one simply can't get, or can't get very quickly at all, from any other resource. People tend to take some kind of average of the responses they read and apply them. Others re-read the thread even years later and learn from it. As a result, I believe the internet has increased market competition and helped ensure better prices, via, for one thing, teaching people the art of haggling at a ridiculously accelerated rate compared to the years before the internet. Or consider regular poster Tegger's Honda/Acura "home-made" site. IMO it now denotes the Mother Theresa of Automotive Community Service. I bet it's crazy how many people it's helped. How did Tegger's site come about? In no small part through regular discussion--and often ultimately extraordinarily valuable vigorous debate--right here. People now get to truths more quickly than every before. Plus this newsgroup and sites like this promote passion for a very healthy pasttime. I personally don't discourage anyone from asking a question in a public fora such as this. On the contrary, most times I feel like the only stupid question is an unasked one. >Here's how that $1,000 deposit works. The dealer requests it as >insurance that you will go through with the sale, subject to approval [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >sake, don't go on the internet asking for advice from a bunch of >strangers that don't know any more than you do. Then I guess you don't really know much more than I do. Thanks anyway. > <snipped> > > Then I guess you don't really know much more than I do. Well in all fairness, he's not out $1000 on a car he doesn't want or like the terms of so he knows at least a little more than you do... > Here's how that $1,000 deposit works. The dealer requests it as > insurance that you will go through with the sale, subject to approval [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > sake, don't go on the internet asking for advice from a bunch of > strangers that don't know any more than you do. The difference is that the contract validity is being called into question by dint of duress - any contract made under duress is invalid. If you agree to withdraw money from an ATM and give it to an armed robber, even if he makes you sign a contract, that contract is unenforceable. The elements of a contract are offer and acceptance, and both must be freely given. Stopping payment is entirely proper at this stage in any event, as no value has been received. The penalty would be limited to whatever the contract specifies for breach of contract... if it is found to be valid. If the OP had the car, it could be fraud - that would be a matter for a court to decide. If the buyer tried to prevent the seller from recovering the vehicle, it surely would be. Otherwise.... I am not a lawyer. Mike >Here's how that $1,000 deposit works. The dealer requests it as >insurance that you will go through with the sale, subject to approval [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >sake, don't go on the internet asking for advice from a bunch of >strangers that don't know any more than you do. Stopping the check does not constitute fraud. At worst it is breech of contract. That is a civil not a criminal issue. This poor guy does not need any more fear in his life. >>Here's how that $1,000 deposit works. The dealer requests it as >>insurance that you will go through with the sale, subject to approval [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > of contract. That is a civil not a criminal issue. This poor guy > does not need any more fear in his life. Actually it can and often does constitute fraud. When you use a bank to commit said breach it can (and often is) prosecuted as check fraud. Not looked upon too differently than if you went into a store and bought groceries using a check from an empty account. All a merchant has to do is "dispute" the check and then take that form down to the local court and a bench-warrant will be sworn out on the writer of the check. Simply stopping a check cause you don't like something is not the proper way to handle it. One should take the other party to small claims (for amounts under your jurisdictions small claims cap. The courts don't look too kindly on those who submit to "self help" rather than using the proper channels. >> Stopping the check does not constitute fraud. At worst it is breech >> of contract. That is a civil not a criminal issue. This poor guy [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > looked upon too differently than if you went into a store and bought > groceries using a check from an empty account. The difference is that no value has been received. It is more as if you went to the store and asked to have groceries delivered, then refused delivery. Bad checks and checks drawn on closed accounts do constitute fraud because the writer is reasonably expected to know the check is no good, while in the case of stopping payment the writer knows the check was good and is entering a dispute. Mike > Simply stopping a check cause you don't like something is > not the proper way to handle it. One should take the > other party to small claims (for amounts under your > jurisdictions small claims cap. The courts don't look too > kindly on those who submit to "self help" rather than > using the proper channels. The courts do however strongly encourage settling disputes outside of them. It's not unusual for a judge to chew two or more parties out for not being 'reasonable' and so wasting the taxpayers' dollar (or billing one or more of the parties for its time!). Only a tiny fraction (less than 1% IIRC) of cases that reach two or more lawyers actually make it to a courtroom precisely because it is more efficient, and about as fair, to settle outside the courts. Hopefully the Original Poster will update us. This could be a very instructive lesson for others. I personally am optimistic that a positive outcome for him/her will result, if s/he applies a fair amount of the suggestions here. Maybe it won't be totally smooth sailing, but who among us had every car transaction go perfectly? >> Simply stopping a check cause you don't like something is not the proper >> way to handle it. One should take the other party to small claims (for [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > being 'reasonable' and so wasting the taxpayers' dollar (or billing one or > more of the parties for its time!). Absolutly. But one-sided "self help" is not settling a dispute outside of court. > Only a tiny fraction (less than 1% IIRC) of cases that reach two or more > lawyers actually make it to a courtroom precisely because it is more > efficient, and about as fair, to settle outside the courts. And by following the "proper" steps it probably never will see a courtroom. > Hopefully the Original Poster will update us. This could be a very > instructive lesson for others. I personally am optimistic that a positive > outcome for him/her will result, if s/he applies a fair amount of the > suggestions here. Maybe it won't be totally smooth sailing, but who among > us had every car transaction go perfectly? > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >>> Simply stopping a check cause you don't like something [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Absolutly. But one-sided "self help" is not settling a > dispute outside of court. I don't think this does justice to the circumstances or what the OP has indicated s/he is contemplating, re stopping the check. >> Absolutly. But one-sided "self help" is not settling a dispute outside >> of court. > > I don't think this does justice to the circumstances or what the OP has > indicated s/he is contemplating, re stopping the check. That is what I make of it. Failure to stop payment actually could be construed as tacit acceptance of the contract, and that won't do. The money, which she (rightly, IMHO) feels she was cheated out of, would probably be gone forever. Again, the whole thing would be much dicier if the OP had taken possession of the car. There's a good reason they want us to leave the lot in the car! Mike > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > actually could be construed as tacit acceptance of the > contract, and that won't do. I don't agree. Nor do I agree that stopping payment is necessarily breaking the law at this point. We need to know the terms of the deposit. We need to know whether this 3-day law you and others nicely mentioned exists in the OP's state. Meanwhile, it doesn't hurt for the OP to see the manager of the dealership, explain, and ask for the deposit back. I saw some of your other comments on what a legal contract is, and I think you're a little off here regarding when a contract is legally binding. Whether the item promised has actually been delivered at this point is irrelevant, since a contract may state it must be delivered at a future date and still be binding. Also, you're proposing that, because the OP told us she was tired, she was under duress. That really doesn't fly, from where I'm sitting as "juror" here, and from my reading on contract validity. One reason it doesn't fly is then anyone could say s/he was tired and so didn't read the wording of a contract, and then be allowed to nullify a contract. Business would come to a halt if this is what the law permitted. All the dealer has to say (and, really now, we don't know the dealer's side) is that the customer said she could only afford X dollars a month, and the dealer gave her a deal for X dollars a month. Unless there's a tape recording of the exchange indicating the customer clearly stated she could only afford X dollars per month for Y months, not Z months as stated in the contract, it may be that the OP is trying to rip off the dealer and get out of a contract. Plus now the OP has a public record of herself saying: "Last night I went into a Honda dealer and agreed to purchase a new car... " That is one incriminating statement. Plus, the way she describes it, it may very well have been a misunderstanding. Plenty of folks foolishly don't care how long they have to pay X dollars a month. They only care that X is below some dollar figure they have in mind. We have to be fair. There may be some car salesperson that worked a few hours on this deal and in fact the customer subsequently got cold feet. Now she's posting to a newsgroup to help build her case. I hope she's honest, and I know car dealerships are in fact notoriously dishonest. But we just don't have all the facts here to come to any firm legal conclusion. Still, I remain optimistic that the OP will get some or all of her deposit back and not run up ridiculous legal fees. Unless she's feeling wealthy, I don't agree she should call a lawyer at this point, because the cost of the lawyer will likely be in excess of the $1000 she stands to lose. > The money, which she (rightly, IMHO) feels she was cheated > out of, would probably be gone forever. > > Again, the whole thing would be much dicier if the OP had > taken possession of the car. I personally wouldn't say "much." All the buyer would have to do is return it the next day and say, "The salesperson told me Y months. The contract says Z. I'm going to give you massive bad publicity if you don't refund every cent I've paid to date. I will pay for the mileage on the car to date." Aside: IMO the legal "profession" is not what it used to be. All thoughtful Joe's or Jane's can now access via the internet much of the law s/he may need for a personal suit, legal statement, etc. and parse it as well, and probably with a lot more motivation (since it's on his/her own behalf), than a paid lawyer. Increasingly, the law reaches out to ordinary people to let them know how to pursue legal remedies, often without a lawyer. E.g. the 3-day law you mentioned. And places like the BBB (which has state branches or equivalent, state-run offices, IIRC). The OP should certainly look the 3-day rule up. Or, if she posts her state, I'll help her find it, if it exists in her state. Then, roughly, she should copy it in a letter to the dealer, deliver it cert. mail to the dealer, and threaten legal action if s/he doesn't get her money back. She needs to document all her efforts to get her money back. Armed with the spot-on correct law (or laws), and baring a little teeth, can make a bad situation go away without having to hire a lawyer-prostitute. Assuming there really was funny business by the dealer. Which I can believe there was. But I want to be fair, too. People do welch on contracts, and I just don't know enough of the facts here to say whether the OP is trying to do so. I hope not. > "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote >> Again, the whole thing would be much dicier if the OP had >> taken possession of the car. > > I personally wouldn't say "much." Strike that. I missed the forest for the trees. Take the deposit out of the equation, replace it with a signed contract saying the buyer will do abc in exchange for her getting this car today, give her the car, and, short of a mistake in the actual, written contract, and based on what the OP said about the conditions under which she signed the contract, she's pretty much stuck with the contract as written. Even if there were evidence that the salesperson said Y months of payments while the contract said Z months of payments, the onus is still on a buyer to read the contract. Contracts are generally put in writing for a reason; namely, with the expectation that people do read them and concur that their was a meeting of the minds per what is written. The law's purpose is to thwart chaos. The law accomplishes this by setting standards which are, bottom line, common sense; based in reason; with an aim towards not assuming anything but going on as much of the facts as are available to all as possible. > The cops might visit you. Stopping payment on a check can be a crime if > it was planned. On the otherhand it is only a contract dipute if it was > not premeditated. If the cops stop by tell them you realized they lied to > you about what the contract said and that is why you stopped payment. I've had to stop payment before, when it was apparent I was being scammed. I never had any trouble from it. The mechanism exists for a purpose, but it's true that one needs a good reason to do so. In this case there should be no problem; making the contract dispute formal covers that base and there has been no value received at this point. Certainly, without the stop the money will be very hard to recover. The whole affair pivots on money - the dealer hopes to get some whether or not they ever deliver anything to you, and if they snag some they know the tricks to cheat you out of it without overt criminal action. The very last thing they want is for this to go to court. Disclaimer - I am not a lawyer. Mike I would like to thank everyone for his /her help. I do value your input and hope that everything will wok out in the best interest of all parties involved ( although I duubt this will be possible). I have wriiten a letter to the manager at the dealership regarding my concern and will cc it to higher authorities if need be. I will get it notarized tomorrow and send it as a certified mail.. When I meet with the manager tomorrow,I will also hand him a copy in person. I have stopped payment on the check and hope we will reach an amicable decision. Thanks again,guys. >I would like to thank everyone for his /her help. I do value your input and > hope that everything will wok out in the best interest of all parties [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > will > reach an amicable decision. Thanks again,guys. Best of luck to you - I think it will turn out okay enough. It is a good bet they do business like this all the time; some dealers are just that way. I would bet you will be given a combination of puppy-eyes (why, what's the matter?) and thinly veiled threats (you signed the contract; you owe this money now). It makes me wonder if places like this are training grounds for abusive mates. Anyway, if you take a bunch of deep breaths and hold your course as best you can you will do fine. All they want is your money. The very last thing they want is to get the law involved; it will only cost them money. Mike >>I would like to thank everyone for his /her help. I do value your input >>and [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Mike Also bad publicity will cost them money as well. I've learned to be wary of salesmen and try to read the fine print. On a similar note when I was buying my Accord, I went ahead and got a pre-approved loan from my C.U. Figured out exactly what my monthly payment would be. Finance guy was going to offer me a higher APR unil I showed my pre-approval certificate. Lowered the APR but the payment was still higher than it should have been. He tried to add the extended warranty without telling me. After all was said and done, I was able to get the lower APR w/lower montly payment. -Dave Oh, what was the saying? "Hold your friends close. Hold your enemies closer." Something like that. Be wary when shelling out your money. Good luck! BULL, he hasn't taken delivery of the car! You may not have a leg to stand on after you take delivery but your talking about a vehicle that's on order. He has the right to look it over and drive it before he accepts it. If for any reason it doesn't please him he should refuse delivery. If there's anything (at all) different from the original order this is also reason to refuse delivery, at which point they would have to refund the deposit. No car is perfect, don't accept delivery unless YOU find it is perfect. Al >>>> I thought he >>>> meant $330 a month for 5 years. Wouldn't you? . [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > not premeditated. If the cops stop by tell them you realized they lied to > you about what the contract said and that is why you stopped payment. Have you read the contract? I didn't think so. It may very well say he has no right to inspect the car before taking delivery. It probably also says he has no right to sue them and must submit any disagreements to binding arbitration. Unfortunately, those type of ridiculous clauses are often enforced these days by judges because people elect politicians like Bush to federal, state, and local offices and in some cases, judgeships. We live in a very anti-consumer society these days. > BULL, he hasn't taken delivery of the car! You may not have a leg to stand > on after you take delivery but your talking about a vehicle that's on [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >> not premeditated. If the cops stop by tell them you realized they lied >> to you about what the contract said and that is why you stopped payment. > Have you read the contract? I didn't think so. It may very well say he > has no right to inspect the car before taking delivery. It probably also [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Bush to federal, state, and local offices and in some cases, judgeships. > We live in a very anti-consumer society these days. Actually, that subject came up here just a couple days ago. My son-in-law, graduating next month with a BS in criminal justice, says unenforcable clauses in contracts and unenforcable forms like waivers of responsibility are common as dirt and worthless in court. A contract may specify anything but all are subject to prevailing law. Mike >> Have you read the contract? I didn't think so. It may very well say he >> has no right to inspect the car before taking delivery. It probably also [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > are common as dirt and worthless in court. A contract may specify anything > but all are subject to prevailing law. Unfortunately your son may be wrong. It depends on what state you are in. He might be correct in California and Massachussetts but these riduculous clauses are being enforced against consumers in most states these days. In fact there is a federal law that overrides state laws regarding binding arbitration clauses and forces state judges to enforce them. You can thank the right wing business interests for that. Virtually all consumer contracts have a three day "cooling off" period which is mandated by federal law. IOW, you can back out of a signed contract. Regarding a "non refundable" deposit, consult an attorney if necessary. JT > Last night I went into a Honda dealer and agreed to purchase a new car. I > really wanted to pay at most $300 a month, over 5 years, but the dealer said [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > money back? Is that legal for them to keep it, when I was told that I would > NOT get it back AFTER the car arrives and I decide I don't want it anymore? Nope, not on auto loans. If the contract is transacted on the dealers property, it is binding. No Backsies! > Virtually all consumer contracts have a three day "cooling off" period > which is mandated by federal law. IOW, you can back out of a signed [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >> NOT get it back AFTER the car arrives and I decide I don't want it >> anymore? > Nope, not on auto loans. If the contract is transacted on the dealers > property, it is binding. No Backsies! Is that different from getting a loan at a bank -- on their property? When I applied, they wouldn't submit the paperwork for three days because of the law we're talking about. > > Nope, not on auto loans. If the contract is transacted on the dealers > > property, it is binding. No Backsies! > > Is that different from getting a loan at a bank -- on their property? When I > applied, they wouldn't submit the paperwork for three days because of the > law we're talking about. The "statute of frauds" may also be applicable in this case. JT Before you do anything. You could be opening yourself up for a world of trouble if you stop payment on the check. The lawyer making a phone call to the dealership manager for you could do a world of good. First, send a certified letter stating you were misled and you want a full refund. Do this NOW before another day goes by. By dicking you around, your 72 hours will go by and you are screwed. Then threaten a lawyer. Ask for whomever is in charge of their legal department so you can have the papers sent to the correct individual. They won't let it go that far. G-Man PS, your dealer stinks! > Last night I went into a Honda dealer and agreed to purchase a new car. > I [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > NOT get it back AFTER the car arrives and I decide I don't want it > anymore? > PS, your dealer stinks! Yes indeed! I wish it were rare, though. In 1984 when we were looking for a car the salesweasel had the nerve to present us with a contract with everything filled in except the price. When I pointed that out he said we would negotiate that after I signed the contract! When I got out of there and into the sunlight I felt like a weight had been lifted from my shoulders. A sister in law bought a car a couple years ago from a dealership in Phoenix that has radio commercials featuring what Dave Barry calls "the Shouting Car Dealership Jerk." She needed to go home in her old car for some credit information, and they insisted she had to leave her driver's license as security! Sheesh.... Mike Legally the situation varies by location. Some places have a "cooling off period", some do not. Always read any contract terms very carefully. Tired and late in the day generally doesn't cut it as a reason to back out of a contract. John BTW, if you really want out, by all means stop payment on the check. John |
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