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Car Forum / Honda Cars / June 2006How much brake fluid would ge good?
'sup all, I've got a 1993 Honda Accord and I'm going to change my master cylinder, as well as replace the brake fluid that's in there. I was thinking about letting gravity drain the fluid from the reservoir and replace the fluid as it drains. Is that a good idea? I wonder if I don't get it all out, how would the two different (assuming just different in age) behave together? Old vs. New. I guess I should get a little bit more fluid to drain it good. Then I was going to replace the Master Cylinder. I need to take the brake hoses off, but do I drain the reservoir first? Maybe until almost empty. my main quandry is How does air not get into the brake lines when I unscrew them from the old master cylinder? How much brake fluid does anyone recommend I should get to drain the system fully and put the new MC on? I was thinking one of those big bottles, like 1Ltr. or something would do, though I don't know how much fluid the system even contains. Could anyone help me with this? How much brake fluid is in the system? I don't want to run out, but I don't know what I'd do with alot of extra fluid either. maybe I'll just flush until I have enough to fill the MC plus a little bit more for later :) <grin> >'sup all, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >different in age) behave together? Old vs. New. I guess I should get >a little bit more fluid to drain it good. Old fluid conains water, its going to boil at a lower temp. >Then I was going to replace the Master Cylinder. I need to take the >brake hoses off, but do I drain the reservoir first? Maybe until >almost empty. my main quandry is How does air not get into the brake >lines when I unscrew them from the old master cylinder? Doesn't matter, you bleed the brakes afterwards. only way, since there's gong to be air in the cylinder to push out as well > How much brake fluid does anyone recommend I should get to drain >the system fully and put the new MC on? I was thinking one of those >big bottles, like 1Ltr. or something would do, though I don't know how >much fluid the system even contains. Always buy more - brake fluid isn't exactly 'honda coolant' price. Or, alternatively, buy lots of smaller bottles, since you can't really store open bottles (moisture gets in and it goes bad) > Could anyone help me with this? How much brake fluid is in the >system? I don't want to run out, but I don't know what I'd do with >alot of extra fluid either. maybe I'll just flush until I have enough >to fill the MC plus a little bit more for later :) <grin> yep, pretty much, I think a 1l bottle should be plenty. I googled on this a few weeks ago, just before flushing my 91 Civic's brake system. Seems one to two 32-oz. bottles is the consensus to flush the system. I used a little less than 32-oz after noting the fluid coming out was pretty clean. I use a Mity-Vac vacuum pump to bleed the brakes. It takes a suction at the bleeder screws. A good one costs around $40. Available via Harbor Freight, among other places. I'd be in the free online manual at www.autozone.com for your car for the master cylinder removal etc. directions. Or, better, use the factory service manual for your 93 Accord at http://www.honda.co.uk/car/owner/workshop.html > 'sup all, > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > I have enough > to fill the MC plus a little bit more for later :) <grin> > 'sup all, > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > alot of extra fluid either. maybe I'll just flush until I have enough > to fill the MC plus a little bit more for later :) <grin> buy 32oz and use it all. disgard any surplus. best way to bleed the front calipers is to open the bleed nipple, then push the piston all the way back in. all the old fluid gets forced out. it's disgusting too. /then/ when you change the m/c, all the clean stuff coming through has a really good start. the rears are less important. wash any brake fluid spillage off bodywork immediately with water. DO NOT WIPE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!!! trust me on that one. > 'sup all, > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > alot of extra fluid either. maybe I'll just flush until I have enough > to fill the MC plus a little bit more for later :) <grin> In addition to the other warnings (especially about cleaning it off paint without delay) I would add that brake fluid is an organic oil - if you leave rags contaminated with brake fluid in a pile they may spontaneously burst into flame. Disposal is best done by dumping the old fluid back into the bottle - as mentioned, it doesn't store well once opened - closing it tightly and putting it into the trash. In theory it can be poured onto the ground because it is biodegradable, but that doesn't seem kosher when a better method is available. Or, I suppose you could burn it in an oil lamp.... Mike > Disposal is best done by dumping the old fluid back into the bottle - as > mentioned, it doesn't store well once opened - closing it tightly and > putting it into the trash. In theory it can be poured onto the ground > because it is biodegradable, but that doesn't seem kosher when a better > method is available. Or, I suppose you could burn it in an oil lamp.... I couldn't disagree more. It's pretty easy, and a lot more friendly on the environment, to store the old brake fluid and dispose of it at a repair shop usually for a small fee or dispose of it for free at a community household hazardous waste collection day (my community has those about 2 or 3 times a year and they're great for getting rid of small quantities of old chemicals, oil, etc). Eric >> Disposal is best done by dumping the old fluid back into the bottle - as >> mentioned, it doesn't store well once opened - closing it tightly and [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Eric I'll go along with that - leaving the details to professionals at no cost to us. They may even have a recycling program. Thanks, Eric. Mike Yep -- one still sees some advice about various means of informal disposal; but the most up-to-date thinking is that used brake fluid (or is it all brake fluid?) should be disposed of as hazmat. I think the issue is some kind of heavy metal that's in there. And since it's a glycol rather than a petroleum oil, you aren't supposed to put it in with your motor oil/tranny fluid either. If your town has a household hazmat center, that's a good place to take it. Or see if the auto parts store where you bought the brake fluid will accept it. As for how much to buy -- get the big bottle and a couple of little ones, or two big bottles (it isn't that expensive). Who wants to get cleaned up and schlep down to the auto parts store halfway through the job because they didn't have enough brake fluid? (Especially if you're working on your only car!) And an unopened, sealed bottle will last. Any opened bottle, on the other hand, should go into the waste bottle with the old stuff (preferably after being pulled through the system with your Mityvac or whatever other bleeding scheme you use). Don't forget to bench-bleed the new master cylinder, too. In this and other aspects, follow the instructions in the shop manual for the car. Finally: after doing any brake work, do not set the car in motion until you get a correct pedal feel, and proceed carefully for a few blocks (stopping repeatedly) until you gain justified confidence in the job. Best of luck, --Joe > 'sup all, > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > alot of extra fluid either. maybe I'll just flush until I have enough > to fill the MC plus a little bit more for later :) <grin> You can use a large syringe to remove all of the brake fluid from the master cylinder reservoir and then bleed the brakes as per the service manual's instructions. Eric Okay, Thanks for all the responses!! From suggestions, I gather that I should empty the brake system first, and then replace the master cylinder. I can pump the new fluid into the system after I install the new MC, correct? That sounds like a good Idea actually. I was going to flush AFTER installing the new MC, but I guess I could get some old/new fluids mixed together that way. Has anyone tackled replacing a Master Cylinder? I am concerned about setting the pushrod freeplay. Any suggestions? The honda manual has a special tool that is used, and Tegger's method of MC changes (at his website http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/mastercylinderreplace/index.html) uses an alternate and interesting approach as well. This would be my main concern, as I wouldn't want my brakes to slowly lock on me while driving, nor would I want them to not slow me down...<grin> Thanks all... > Okay, > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > concern, as I wouldn't want my brakes to slowly lock on me while > driving, nor would I want them to not slow me down...<grin> One more time...have someone there who has done more than one brake job before or have it done by a mechanic. It isn't something to <grin> about. > > Thanks all... >Okay, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Has anyone tackled replacing a Master Cylinder? i did it in my 88 civic december 04. had to walk to the advance to get the parts, walk back, and then fit it. Had to work kinda quick too, since my wife had to use it for a job interview the next morning (it was our only car at the time). alas, the house had no garage, or shelter, and was below freezing by the time i finished, at 2am. Did it on a similar age caravan about ayear ago, went much smoother, thanks to the practice. both times i had haynes manuals to help me through it. > I am concerned about setting the pushrod freeplay. Any >suggestions? The honda manual has a special tool that is used, and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Thanks all... Thanks guys and gals, this is great data. Has anyone come across problems/solutions to adjusting the freeplay on the pushrod? This was mentioned in the manual and from other sources. This is my main concern. After removing the brake lines from the old MASTER CYLINDER is there any worries about getting air into the brake lines w/ the cylinder off? Do these brake lines have a valve or anything that opens when it gets screwed on to the master cylinder, or are they exposed to potential air contamination? I appreciate it all... > Thanks guys and gals, > > this is great data. Has anyone come across problems/solutions to > adjusting the freeplay on the pushrod? This was mentioned in the > manual and from other sources. This is my main concern. Here's what I did on my car ('91 Integra): http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/mastercylinderreplace/index.html For pushrod adjustment, see parts 6 and 7. Pushrod adjustment is one of the things I ended up having to do before my pedal felt correct. > After removing the brake lines from the old MASTER CYLINDER is there > any worries about getting air into the brake lines w/ the cylinder off? > Do these brake lines have a valve or anything that opens when it gets > screwed on to the master cylinder, or are they exposed to potential air > contamination? I didn't have any problems with air getting into the lines. Read the link above and you'll see why.  SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ Tegger, I've read your pages many times. I am just a little in the dark when it comes to knowledge about those fluid pipes that screw into the master cylinder. I've been browsing that topic at your site for a while now, though the only thing I found of this problem is : (I'm using a quote out of one of the pages at that link you provided) "The open hydraulics on the MC will start to drip as soon as you remove the fittings. The fluid in the lines didn't drip out, so no danger of air in the lines that way" Can I ask a bit about this? I'm assuming the lines are stought enough that they don't sway much when disconnected from the MC and we can face them upwards so not to spill the fluid. I understand there will be some fliud dripping out, but I just want to be as certain as I can that I fully understand what you're saying about the procedure. Thinking about it just now I don't know that it would be horrible if a bit of air got in. I have to flush it anyways and the air should get bled out from that. Thanks all for the advice... > Tegger, > I've read your pages many times. I am just a little in the dark [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > enough that they don't sway much when disconnected from the MC and we > can face them upwards so not to spill the fluid. they don't wave about, but don't bend them. there's enough flex there that you can move them temorarily out of the way, but again, do not permanently bend the metal pipes. > I understand there > will be some fliud dripping out, the fluid doesn't usually run out of the pipes unless you have a bleed nipple open downstream. [the pipe internal diameter is chosen specifically so that doesen't happen.] you can therefore, at a pinch, and this is not recommended, bleed the m/c direct at the pipe connectors and not even bleed the rest of the system. again, that's not recommended, but it can be done because the pipes don't usually empty on their own. > but I just want to be as certain as I > can that I fully understand what you're saying about the procedure. > Thinking about it just now I don't know that it would be horrible if a > bit of air got in. I have to flush it anyways and the air should get > bled out from that. yes, fully bleed afterwards. use the full "have an assistant push the pedal to the floor" technique, especially on a new m/c as the preserving fluid that's in there can sometimes cause airlocks. > Thanks all for the advice... jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:TrCdndFIQYrRYfjZRVn- vQ@speakeasy.net: > yes, fully bleed afterwards. use the full "have an assistant push the > pedal to the floor" technique, especially on a new m/c as the preserving > fluid that's in there can sometimes cause airlocks. "Preserving fluid"? Mine was bone-dry except for the little brake fluid they used as an assembly lube. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:TrCdndFIQYrRYfjZRVn- > vQ@speakeasy.net: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > "Preserving fluid"? Mine was bone-dry except for the little brake fluid > they used as an assembly lube. it's preserving fluid - taste it. brake fluid is hygroscopic and in a humid climate, where an uninstalled system is open like this, would rapidly corrode and seize all m/c's in storage. store an old m/c out in the garage for a season and watch what happens! >> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:TrCdndFIQYrRYfjZRVn- >> vQ@speakeasy.net: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > rapidly corrode and seize all m/c's in storage. store an old m/c out > in the garage for a season and watch what happens! Ah, well. In any case, the OP ought to bench-bleed first, as that makes the installation quite a lot simpler and would eject any assembly fluid as well. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>>jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:TrCdndFIQYrRYfjZRVn- >>>vQ@speakeasy.net: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > installation quite a lot simpler and would eject any assembly fluid as > well. may as well do it on the car. bolt on, connect but don't tighten the fluid lines, bleed away. good deal less messy than getting fluid all over your bench. the car has to be washed off after installation anyway. Hmm, so, just put the new MC in and attach the hoses slightly and then bleed the master cylinder? Interesting approach. I guess just bolt it onto the booster and and attach the hoses. I like the fact that it would be connected to the brakes which I could pump from. I may have misunderstood you of course... > Hmm, > so, just put the new MC in and attach the hoses slightly and then > bleed the master cylinder? Interesting approach. I guess just bolt it > onto the booster and and attach the hoses. I like the fact that it > would be connected to the brakes which I could pump from. > I may have misunderstood you of course... That's my usual approach. I wrap a shop rag around each fitting and bleed it by pressing the pedal and keeping the reservoir full until the rags are getting wet. Then I tighten the fittings and bleed each wheel until the fluid is clear... I rarely see bubbles come out, just murky fluid. It's a really lazy approach but it works for me. Disclaimer - I have not had to deal with ABS, and this may not work well with ABS. Be sure to wash all the areas well when you are done. Mike It's my understanding that the conventional system should not be affected by the presence of ABS. The fluid chambers are different, so I don't see what one fluid would do to the other fluid in another reservoir. > It's my understanding that the conventional system should not be > affected by the presence of ABS. The fluid chambers are different, so > I don't see what one fluid would do to the other fluid in another > reservoir. ABS Master Cylinders are much more complex inside. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > Tegger, > I've read your pages many times. I am just a little in the dark [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > enough that they don't sway much when disconnected from the MC and we > can face them upwards so not to spill the fluid. They're pretty stiff. They won't move very much at all. > I understand there > will be some fliud dripping out, but I just want to be as certain as I > can that I fully understand what you're saying about the procedure. > Thinking about it just now I don't know that it would be horrible if a > bit of air got in. I have to flush it anyways and the air should get > bled out from that. Provided you've bench-bled the new master cylinder, there won't be any air left to get into the lines. If you hook everything up again and the pedal feels as firm as it was before you began, then there's no air in the lines, and a full-bleeding is optional (but a good idea anyway). If air does get in there, no, it's not horrible. It will eventually be ejected at the wheels. Occasionally air can get trapped in the rear caliper's mechanism and be a bit difficult to remove. There's a workaround if you run into that. > Thanks all for the advice... Hope it helps. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >Thanks guys and gals, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >screwed on to the master cylinder, or are they exposed to potential air >contamination? You got air int he cylinder, the new one. you're going to have to push it out via the lines anyway, who cares if theres a little more air int he lines? Its not a big deal, since you're gong to be pushing the rest of the crap out. look at the system, and apply a small amont of common sense. >I appreciate it all... > Okay, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > installing the new MC, but I guess I could get some old/new fluids > mixed together that way. Your thinking was correct. Flush the system AFTER replacing the master cylinder. Remove the fluid from the reservoir of the old master cylinder first, replace the master cylinder after you've bench bled it (check your service manual for bench bleeding instructions), and then flush the whole brake system until you get clean fluid from each caliper/wheel cylinder. I strongly recommend AGAINST draining the whole system and then trying to bleed it. There will be so much air in the system you'll be bleeding it for a long, long time. Eric > > Okay, > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > bleed it. There will be so much air in the system you'll be bleeding it > for a long, long time. OK, here's one of my old posts which describes bench bleeding a master cylinder, http://tinyurl.com/o5t6q. Eric > 'sup all, How much brake fluid would be good...hmmm...interesting question. As a start, enough to fill all the lines and the reservoir. > I've got a 1993 Honda Accord and I'm going to change my master > cylinder, as well as replace the brake fluid that's in there. I was [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > different in age) behave together? Old vs. New. I guess I should get > a little bit more fluid to drain it good. Flush ALL of the old fluid out and use only new fluid. And be sure to bleed the brakes following the manufacturers recommended procedure for that car. > Then I was going to replace the Master Cylinder. I need to take the > brake hoses off, but do I drain the reservoir first? Maybe until [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > alot of extra fluid either. maybe I'll just flush until I have enough > to fill the MC plus a little bit more for later :) <grin> I'm more than a bit concerned by your questions because they tell me you don't have a lot of experience working on brakes. Brake work can be done at home, but someone at the work site has to be knowlegable in how a brake system works. My strong suggestion is that you either ask a friend who has that knowlege to sit with you or that you have a mechanic do the work. Brakes are not something you want to have fixed just part of the way. The order of bleeding for the '93 accord is Rear Right, Front Left, Rear Left, Front Right. I'm going to have to figure a way to tackle the pushrod freeplay issue. Okay. I got my refurbished MC and so I'm just waiting for the opportune moment, like when I have a 3day weekend or something... I've always got AAA to drag me to the mechanic .. Well, to answer my own question, I used a little less than half a quart of brake fluid. I probably would have gone through the whole quart, but I couldn't get the rear left valve loose. Using my flare wrench, I couldn't loosen the rearleft bleed screw. The head is rounded and I don't know how I should go about turning it w/ out breaking it. Any suggestions? Once loosened I can replace it with a new bleed screw I guess. Any one w/ experience here? Thanks! if its already wrecked, use some penetrating oil on it, and a small pipe wrench shold do the trick. Get a new one from the wrecker or honda. >Well, to answer my own question, I used a little less than half a quart >of brake fluid. I probably would have gone through the whole quart, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Any one w/ experience here? Thanks! I was afraid the penetrating oil might contaminate the brake system. Is there a compatible lube I could use in this application, one that might be better in a 'brake systems' situation? It's a pain because I didn't get to finish flushing my Brake System. I got the new MC on and made sure to bleed that, but I couldn't drain all the lines. The line going to the rear left tire is the guilty bleed screw... I'm not horribly worried, I just I wanted to get that old fluid out of that line. I also hope all that old fliud stays in that line and doesn't migrate throughout the rest of the system, but I guess it makes sense that it would eventually mix together, but hopefully not too soon. Thanks man! On 5/29/06 2:08 PM, in article 1148929698.720867.324200@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "scube" <boxfreedom@yahoo.com> wrote: > Well, to answer my own question, I used a little less than half a quart > of brake fluid. I probably would have gone through the whole quart, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Any one w/ experience here? Thanks! If you know you are going to replace it anyway, try the vice-grips. > On 5/29/06 2:08 PM, in article > 1148929698.720867.324200@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "scube" [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > If you know you are going to replace it anyway, try the vice-grips. Yeah, this is what I'm thinking. I need to make a run up to the junk yard and see if I can locate one. Maybe a few, I doubt I'd find my identical car, just similar ones a year or so apart. I couldn't find simple bleed screws anywhere, just the fancy ones that have valves or something in them so you can bleed them easier. I've got a one-man brake bleed kit which is quite simple to use, just a bottle w/ a tube going to the bleed screw nipple, so I'm not interested in these more expensive screw types. Did you check with the counter people at Autozone? IIRC, they keep ordinary bleeder screws behind the counter for a few dollars each. > Yeah, > this is what I'm thinking. I need to make a run up to [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > not > interested in these more expensive screw types. > Did you check with the counter people at Autozone? IIRC, > they keep ordinary bleeder screws behind the counter for a [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > not > > interested in these more expensive screw types. sweet, I'll check that out. I've got a MC core to return....that's great! I'm curious how much fluid I'll lose when I pull that old screw out. Thanks alot! > I'm curious how much fluid I'll lose when I pull that old screw out. That would depend on how many times you press the brake pedal while its out. -jim > > I'm curious how much fluid I'll lose when I pull that old screw out. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- oh sweet, I had a hunch that was the case, for when I opened the other bleed screws there was just a slight drip until I pressed the brake. How long is too long to let brake fluid sit around before you use it in an opened container. We've been told that it collects water, but any clue how long is too long? I'd like to report that after about 6 or so days w/ my new MC the brakes are like new. At first I thought there was a bit too much play in them, but after driving to and from work a few times I don't notice it, and the pedal doesn't sink anymore at hot temperatures. There may be a slight amount or air in there, when I was bleeding the MC I just kept bleeding and bleeding, eventually I'd seee more airbubbles in come through the tubes ... so..? Ah well, thanks so much all for the great advice and tribulations. I am very pleased at the results of several of my adventures w/ my car in the past few months, including CV axles, new front struts, fixed cruise control, and clean MC. It went as smooth as it did with all of your help. Thanks again. > > > I'm curious how much fluid I'll lose when I pull that old screw out. > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > in an opened container. We've been told that it collects water, but > any clue how long is too long? It depends on the humidity. Around here where the humidity is always around 100% a few minuites is all it takes , but never use brake fluid from a container that has remained open overnight unless you live where the humidity is Zero. SignatureKevin Mouton Automotive Technology Instructor "If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy" Red Green > I'd like to report that after about 6 or so days w/ my new MC the > brakes are like new. At first I thought there was a bit too much play [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > cruise control, and clean MC. It went as smooth as it did with all > of your help. Thanks again. |
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