Car Forum / Honda Cars / June 2006
Mystery Nut--Anyone Identify?
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Elle - 17 May 2006 14:04 GMT Can anyone please identify the nut pictured at the following site?
http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id16.html
It's head is 12 mm across. It has some sort of locking mechanism. It sheared off its stud, presumably due to age and the vibrations that resulted while I was grinding off the lower inboard control arm bolt on the driver's side. Part of the stud appears in the photo. At the end of the day, I found it beneath the cardboard on which I lie to do this work.
I will be inspecting the engine compartment to see if I can see a similar one.
RWM - 17 May 2006 14:19 GMT Mystery photo. How are we to tell?
> Can anyone please identify the nut pictured at the following > site? > > http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id16.html notbob - 17 May 2006 14:28 GMT > Can anyone please identify the nut pictured at the following > site? Can you identify the nut who took this terrible picture? As blurry as this photograph is, it's most likely to remain a mystery, though I'd venture a wild guess at a nylon-self-locking nut.
> It's head is 12 mm across. It has some sort of locking > mechanism. It sheared off its stud, presumably due to age [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > day, I found it beneath the cardboard on which I lie to do > this work. Did you shear this nut off yourself or just find it? Are you sure it's not really a old metal tire valve stem cap?
nb
'Curly Q. Links' - 17 May 2006 15:50 GMT > Can anyone please identify the nut pictured at the following > site? > > http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id16.html -------------------------------
I think it's an out-of-focus picture of one of them alien space craft that they used to publish back in the 70's. Looks a bit taller though
:-( Tip: On digital cameras that don't have a MACRO or close-up setting, you can hold a magnifying glass or Grandpa's reading glasses in front of the lens, and it works just fine.
'Curly'
Grumpy AuContraire - 17 May 2006 17:35 GMT snip
> Tip: On digital cameras that don't have a MACRO or close-up setting, you > can hold a magnifying glass or Grandpa's reading glasses in front of the > lens, and it works just fine. > > 'Curly' That quite a tip Curly... Who would have known???
I'll pass that onn to my cheap friends who have cheap cameras!
JT
(Yep, you can learn something new every day)
Nasty - 17 May 2006 15:53 GMT You didn't say what model Honda you have. But it looks like a manifold nut to me. On my '00 Accord both the intake and exhaust are 12mm.
> Can anyone please identify the nut pictured at the following site? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I will be inspecting the engine compartment to see if I can see a similar > one. Elle - 17 May 2006 16:21 GMT Beg pardon. It's a 91 Honda Civic. Nasty, thanks for the suggestion. My Chilton's does indeed show a bunch of exhaust and intake manifold nuts that seem to fit the bill. Majestic's online parts site confirms that the exhaust manifold has nine self-locking nuts. It's also certainly rusted enough that I would expect it to be either in a weather path or on the exhaust system somewhere. I'll take the shroud off tomorrow and confirm. Thank you!
Curly, good tip. I know it's a lousy photo.
RWM, it's some kind of self-locking nut and so is a little unique looking. I thought someone might recognize it before, ya know, I discover the hard way and my engine falls apart or something on the highway later today.
> You didn't say what model Honda you have. But it looks > like a manifold nut to me. On my '00 Accord both the [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> I will be inspecting the engine compartment to see if I >> can see a similar one. Grumpy AuContraire - 17 May 2006 17:31 GMT It looks like a standard flanged nut with some sort of a PAL nut as locking insurance.
JT
> Can anyone please identify the nut pictured at the following > site? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I will be inspecting the engine compartment to see if I can > see a similar one. Matt Ion - 17 May 2006 18:20 GMT > Can anyone please identify the nut pictured at the following > site? > > http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id16.html That would be TeGGeR... oh wait, wrong picture ;)
> It's head is 12 mm across. It has some sort of locking > mechanism. It sheared off its stud, presumably due to age [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I will be inspecting the engine compartment to see if I can > see a similar one. Do you have a pic that's not quite so fuzzy?
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Elle - 17 May 2006 20:27 GMT > Elle wrote: >> Can anyone please identify the nut pictured at the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > That would be TeGGeR... oh wait, wrong picture ;) Ha. We're all gearheads in this together. :-)
> Do you have a pic that's not quite so fuzzy? I'm afraid not. I am looking for a magnifying glass. Little busy today.
TeGGeR® - 17 May 2006 21:42 GMT >> Can anyone please identify the nut pictured at the following >> site? >> >> http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id16.html > > That would be TeGGeR... oh wait, wrong picture ;) Whaaaat? I resemble that remark. >:^Þ
It's an exhaust manifold nut. Looks like part of the stud is still in it too, so that's broken.
Remove the front heat shield for the exhaust manifold and have a look at all the studs.
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The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
Eric - 17 May 2006 23:16 GMT > >> Can anyone please identify the nut pictured at the following > >> site? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Remove the front heat shield for the exhaust manifold and have a look at > all the studs. I also thought it looked like an exhaust manifold nut. The question remains though, how did it get under the dash? Was Elle under the dash recently and unknowingly transferred the nut there?
Eric
Elle - 18 May 2006 04:34 GMT >> >> Can anyone please identify the nut pictured at the >> >> following [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > dash recently and > unknowingly transferred the nut there? No; miscommunication. My Civic was on ramps, and I was under the car, grinding out one of the control arm bolts, for a long time (see other thread). About mid-day I moved the cardboard and wood planks on which I lie for this sort of work and found this lock-nut (with, as Tegger said, part of a stud attached). I figured the grinding vibrations knocked it free.
I'll get a closer look tomorrow. Car's driving okay, all things considered (especially all my monkeying with everything).
Thanks, folks, this will save me a lot of time.
SoCalMike - 18 May 2006 00:11 GMT > Can anyone please identify the nut pictured at the following > site? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I will be inspecting the engine compartment to see if I can > see a similar one. i would put money on it being a stud/nut for the exhaust system. either the a/b/c pipes, the catalyst, or possibly the exhaust manifold. its got the same patina of a nut/stud thats been in high heat all its life.
Elle - 19 May 2006 15:34 GMT I took the exhaust manifold shroud off today. It is indeed an exhaust manifold nut (with broken-off stud stuck in it). It's the one nearest the distributor.
I am amazed at how many people (Nasty, Tegger, Eric, SoCalMike) nailed this, and with a fuzzy photo, too. What a phenomenal newsgroup!
I see the stud on sale at Majestic online for a couple bucks.
I reckon I'll see how my ball joint castle nut/stud work goes today and then make a trip to the junkyard. I think the front desk man and I could become an item... :-)
Much obliged for everyone's input. This all is valued work to me, and I couldn't do it nearly as efficiently (and at some points, not at all) without the extensive experience of so many of you.
TeGGeR® - 20 May 2006 01:41 GMT > I took the exhaust manifold shroud off today. It is indeed > an exhaust manifold nut (with broken-off stud stuck in it). [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > SoCalMike) nailed this, and with a fuzzy photo, too. What a > phenomenal newsgroup! Broken studs are very common. I had one too. Mine broke below the surface of the head. My mechanic removed it, but wouldn't tell me how (trade secret, or so he says...). It was done at the same time as my head gasket replacement, so the machine shop that trued the head probably did it.
The problem is that exhaust pulses are quite violent. This is the reason you need heat-resistant "prevailing torque" nuts. The nuts don't vibrate off, but the pulses often break a stud.
Funny, the one that broke on mine was the one nearest the timing belt. It must be a random thing.
 Signature TeGGeR®
The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
TeGGeR® - 20 May 2006 01:46 GMT > The problem is that exhaust pulses are quite violent. This is the > reason you need heat-resistant "prevailing torque" nuts. The nuts > don't vibrate off, but the pulses often break a stud. That combined with the exhaust system flexing as the engine torques on its mounts, of course...
 Signature TeGGeR®
The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
Elle - 20 May 2006 03:38 GMT > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >> I took the exhaust manifold shroud off today. It is [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > replacement, so the machine shop that trued the head > probably did it. Mine is broken off at the outer surface of the exhaust manifold. Hopefully "all" I have to do is remove the manifold, and I'll plenty of leftover stud to drill/double-nut/etc.
I'm not going to pursue it until I get my new front lower control arm bushings in (knock on wood). Tomorrow's a big day.
Doggone Napa said they had the stud. I go there and they insist it's a 10 mm stud. I didn't have the broken nut-stud with me and bought it. Back I go.
> The problem is that exhaust pulses are quite violent. This > is the reason [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > timing belt. It > must be a random thing. Interesting. Maybe I'll see about replacing all nine or so, before they break within the cylinder head.
Thanks for the info. As always, it's very helpful.
Elle - 23 May 2006 15:20 GMT What torque should be applied to the exhaust manifold stud (91 Civic LX, 176k miles) when installing it in the cylinder head? This torque specification does not seem to appear in the service manual or my Chilton's.
I see the locking nuts get 23 ft-lbs, so I suppose that's reasonable for the studs, too. Still, perhaps someone here has some more insight or thoughts on what is reasonable here.
Also, ISTM I should replace all nine studs. Any good reason not to? "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," is a good rule, but on a car this old, and since broken exhaust manifold studs are fairly common, I think an ounce of prevention may be appropriate here. Your experience on this matter is welcome.
I plan to double nut the studs to remove them, being mindful that they are fatigued and could very well break off in an undesirable way.
Again, they're 8 mm nominal diameter studs.
My Civic yesterday recorded the lowest gas mileage since I started keeping careful records two years ago--36.3 mpg vs. my average of about 40 mpg (higher in late spring and summer). It's never been this low for this time of year. I googled and it certainly seems that the missing nut may be causing an exhaust leak and causing the engine control system to run rich.
I am pricing a new exhaust manifold gasket, studs, and nuts locally today.
Grumpy AuContraire - 23 May 2006 18:17 GMT > What torque should be applied to the exhaust manifold stud > (91 Civic LX, 176k miles) when installing it in the cylinder [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > has some more insight or thoughts on what is reasonable > here. Studs should have slightly more torque than nuts as it is desired that the nut turn freely (when loosening) while the stud remains in place. this can be done by locking two nuts together when installing the stud. Using "lock tight" is also a possibility but may not be as effective due to the high heat this application must endure.
> Also, ISTM I should replace all nine studs. Any good reason > not to? "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," is a good rule, > but on a car this old, and since broken exhaust manifold > studs are fairly common, I think an ounce of prevention may > be appropriate here. Your experience on this matter is > welcome. Yes, I would replace all of 'em if it is not a big hassle.
> I plan to double nut the studs to remove them, being mindful > that they are fatigued and could very well break off in an > undesirable way. That's ok. Just be patient and work the studs in both directions to gradually loosen 'em up. Also, a direct blow or two to the top of the stud itself can be beneficial. Just make sure a nut is present to protect the threads.
> Again, they're 8 mm nominal diameter studs. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > causing an exhaust leak and causing the engine control > system to run rich. Ethanol mix maybe??
> I am pricing a new exhaust manifold gasket, studs, and nuts > locally today. Elle - 23 May 2006 19:44 GMT > Elle wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > present to > protect the threads. Sounds good. My parts are on order locally and I think I'll work on this before my pass. side front bushings. I'm going to soak as much as I can of the applicable bolt threads in PB Blaster today. Fortunately I had the header pipe disconnected from the exhaust manifold a couple of years ago.
Thanks for sharing your experience, JT.
>> Again, they're 8 mm nominal diameter studs. >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Ethanol mix maybe?? No. I am using the same gas stations I usually use. They haven't shifted. Last time I did get a winter mix, I didn't notice a change in fuel mileage (using odometer miles/gallons added to top off).
Grumpy AuContraire - 23 May 2006 23:52 GMT > > Elle wrote: > >> [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] > notice a change in fuel mileage (using odometer > miles/gallons added to top off). I think that all gasoline sold nationally now has to have an ethanol content of 10% that replaces MBTE (sp?) that was declared "dangerous" by the EPA.. There was a big fuss by the oil companies and refiners.
JT
SoCalMike - 24 May 2006 02:14 GMT > What torque should be applied to the exhaust manifold stud > (91 Civic LX, 176k miles) when installing it in the cylinder > head? This torque specification does not seem to appear in > the service manual or my Chilton's. AFAIK, they basically just thread all the way (half way?) in, and thats it. no torque necessary. when you attach the nut and washer, and torque *that* it tightens the stud as well, or at least causes the stud to become "elastic".
TeGGeR® - 24 May 2006 04:15 GMT >> What torque should be applied to the exhaust manifold stud >> (91 Civic LX, 176k miles) when installing it in the cylinder [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > *that* it tightens the stud as well, or at least causes the stud to > become "elastic". I suspect you're right. Just tighten until it bottoms, then stop.
I just checked several factory manuals here, and not one specifies a torque figure for the studs.
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The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
Stephen H - 24 May 2006 06:43 GMT Elle, I have 2 4 piece sets of these (the picture doesn't show the bottom) It has 3 cams that roll out and pinch the stud for removal and installation. It sometime leaves small dimples in the stud but has never effected the operation. Check Sears, Harbor freight. Saves tones of time on studs. (i.e., threading two nuts on, having them slip, re tighten, remove stud now try to remove the nuts for the next go-around.
http://www.toolsource.com/ost/product.asp?sourceid=googlekd&dept%5Fid=500&pf%5Fi d=98648&mscssid=G130SF55VL6V9K3H98JT1CDLFPKJ5AD9
http://www.bugsandbuggies.com/Parts.asp?CN=626&SN=67&GN=9
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TeGGeR® - 24 May 2006 12:33 GMT > Elle, > I have 2 4 piece sets of these (the picture doesn't show the bottom) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > studs. (i.e., threading two nuts on, having them slip, re tighten, > remove stud now try to remove the nuts for the next go-around. Now what do you do for studs that have broken off flush with the head or below?
 Signature TeGGeR®
The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
Stephen H - 25 May 2006 04:39 GMT I use drills; heat and easy outs Drill it open, insert the easy our and try; sometimes the heat of the drill breaks it loose, but be careful, you don't want to break the easy out. If that doesn't do the trick, an ox/ace torch, heat the stud hot and then try.
 Signature Stephen W. Hansen ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician ASE Automobile Advanced Engine Performance ASE Undercar Specialist
http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troubleshooting/l/bl_obd_main.htm http://www.troublecodes.net/technical/ http://www.familycar.com/Alignment.htm
>> Elle, >> I have 2 4 piece sets of these (the picture doesn't show the bottom) [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Now what do you do for studs that have broken off flush with the head or > below? Elle - 24 May 2006 14:54 GMT Stephen H, wow, thanks! I'll be checking around for these locally "stud removal sockets." I just checked Ebay and found a few (and just a few) similar kits. For others who are interested, the bottom of one such set is partly shown at http://cgi.ebay.com/4-PC-STUD-PULLER-REMOVER-WRENCH-METRIC-SIZES-AUTO_W0QQitemZ4 464730279QQcategoryZ50379QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
I also googled on this topic yesterday. The only site that seemed helpful (so far) is http://www.swedishbricks.net/700900FAQ/Exhaust1.html#Exhaust%20Manifold%20Gasket %20&%20Studs%20Replacement . There is indeed a mention of a "locking collar type stud remover." On first reading, that went right by me. It's surely the tool you suggest, though.
Tegger, for studs that are broken off flush with the cylinder head, several folks at this site make a strong argument (based in experience) for right angle (and reversible) drills.
Aside: I was at Harbor Freight yesterday. Fifteen dollars buys a lot of tools which show, to me, great promise for making my bushing replacement efforts easier when I go at the passenger side lower control arm in a day or so. Air hammer (seven bucks), tiny 3/4-inch diameter diamond mini cutting discs (for my air die grinder), tiny wire brush for a low RPM electric drill. I'm frugal, but I kept thinking, for two or so bucks more, this or that might save me five hours and a lot of sore muscles, keep me safer, etc.
I go at the exhaust manifold studs maybe next week.
> Elle, > I have 2 4 piece sets of these (the picture doesn't show [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > http://www.bugsandbuggies.com/Parts.asp?CN=626&SN=67&GN=9 Elle - 07 Jun 2006 21:59 GMT Per Stephen H.'s suggestion, I bought an 8 mm stud removal socket (with the roller cams) on Ebay for $13 ($7 + $6 shipping). Over the past two weeks, and after driving the car awhile so the engine was hot, I removed the old nuts and applied PB Blaster so as to maybe penetrate to the studs' threads. The stud removal socket worked perfectly on all nine studs, including the one partly broken off. Enough stub was left so that it was not a problem.
Very little torque was required to remove the studs with the socket. I needed only an ordinary 8-inch ratchet with a little pressure applied. It seemed they might have still been tightened to the 23 ft-lbs specification applied at the factory some 15 years ago! The old studs were very clean, and all threads were in good shape. Nonetheless since they were surely fatigued from cyclic heating and cooling and vibrations, I replaced both studs and nuts.
The original exhaust manifold gasket is a three-layered, aluminum like affair, with the layer nearest the engine having webs. The new gasket I bought is a single layer, no webs. Dunno what's up with this. I retained the first two layers and replaced the layer furthest from the engine, since it looked most like the new gasket.
The three manifold-to-header-pipe stud threads are in questionable shape at this time, from the two times now I've applied serious torque. I'll chase them down soon and possibly replace them.
Fortunately th was a very easy job.
Test drive was fine. With every control arm bushing set I replace, I think the handling is improving. I think it is worth the effort I am putting into it.
Little aside: I previously reported a seeming drop in fuel mileage (to 36.3 mpg, a record low in the last few years) after the one exhaust manifold stud broke. On the next tank, the fuel mileage shot up to 47.8 mpg (a record high in the last few years). So I think something was screwy during my last two fill-ups. The average is close to my usual average for this time of year.
I remain much obliged to people's input here. It's great to learn and build, literally.
ah1244@wayne.edu - 18 May 2006 03:24 GMT >From that photo, looks like one of those Castle nuts or Self-locking nuts from the front suspension. There are 4 identical sized nuts (all 12x1.25 mm) but with different torque settings (page 18-8 of service manual; 1991 Civic). One on top of the strut housing, and two at the bottom, and another one at the end of the control arm. If you need the diagram, do drop a line, and I will scan the page and send it over. Hope this helps......
> Can anyone please identify the nut pictured at the following > site? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I will be inspecting the engine compartment to see if I can > see a similar one. Elle - 18 May 2006 04:41 GMT > >From that photo, looks like one of those Castle nuts or > >Self-locking > nuts from the front suspension. There are 4 identical > sized nuts (all > 12x1.25 mm) Is that 12 mm the nominal diamter of the suspension bolts onto which these suspension self-locking nuts fit, though? That sounds more likely.
The 12 mm I mention for this mystery nut is the nut head measurement. That is, a 12 mm socket fits it. The nominal diameter of its corresponding stud appears to be 6 mm or 8 mm. (The stud diameter is a little hard to measure while it's stuck in the nut.)
Thanks for the input. I'll update tomorrow, hopefully.
Eric - 18 May 2006 11:18 GMT > Is that 12 mm the nominal diamter of the suspension bolts > onto which these suspension self-locking nuts fit, though? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > mm. (The stud diameter is a little hard to measure while > it's stuck in the nut.) Most 12 mm nuts on a Honda are threaded for an 8 x 1.25 mm bolt.
Eric
ah1244@wayne.edu - 18 May 2006 14:43 GMT Hello: I just checked the stud/nut diameters with a caliper after your and Elle's posts. Yes, you two are correct: the 12x1.25 mm that Honda manual refers to is the stud diameter and not the nut diameter (should have remembered this...my apologies). For the 12 mm diameter nut Elle refers to, looks like the corresponding stud size is 8 mmx1.25 mm as Eric correctly suggests. If yours came from the front suspension, there is just one such self-locking-nut according to the front suspension diagram; 8x1.25 mm, stabilizer bar /lower arm attachment. According to the diagram, in the front suspension, there are 6 of 12x1.25 mm self-locking/castle nuts (missed two of these in my earlier post!) 5 of 10x1.25 mm 1 of 8x1.25 mm; all self-locking or castle nuts. As Eric and you indicate correctly, the 12, 10 or 8 referred to in the diagram are for the stud diameter.
Michael Pardee - 18 May 2006 19:41 GMT > >From that photo, looks like one of those Castle nuts or Self-locking > nuts from the front suspension. There are 4 identical sized nuts (all [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > diagram, do drop a line, and I will scan the page and send it over. > Hope this helps...... That's what it looks like to me - a high-temperature locking nut.
Mike
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