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Car Forum / Honda Cars / June 2006update on emergency brake warning light
Wento to go to mechanics this morning, car wouldn't start, like the way a dead battery sounds. I kept trying, it finally started Plus that brake warning light was no longer on!!! Took it to mechanic anyway---so far he's thinking alternator. So I left the car there, and we'll see what happens tomorrow. I'll let you all know loner > Wento to go to mechanics this morning, car wouldn't start, like the way a > dead battery sounds. I kept trying, it finally started Plus that brake > warning light was no longer on!!! > Took it to mechanic anyway---so far he's thinking alternator. So I left > the car there, and we'll see what happens tomorrow. I'll let you all know > loner BTW, in general, are alternators really expensive? I mean the part itself--labor is always expensive! loner > > Wento to go to mechanics this morning, car wouldn't start, like the way a > > dead battery sounds. I kept trying, it finally started Plus that brake [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > itself--labor is always expensive! > loner ----------------------------------------- Alternators are expensive, but nobody replaces the whole alternator, just the 'brushes'. I expect your mechanic will suggest a little Vaseline (for your battery terminals too). 'Curly' >> > Wento to go to mechanics this morning, car wouldn't start, like the way >> > a [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > 'Curly' Thanks Curly, that's good to know loner "the loner" <theloner@nowhere.com> wrote about an 89 Civic DX sedan >> Wento to go to mechanics this morning, car wouldn't >> start, like the way a dead battery sounds. I kept [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > BTW, in general, are alternators really expensive? I mean > the part itself--labor is always expensive! You can get a price on the alternator (possibly rebuilt) at places like www.slhonda.com and www.hondaautomotiveparts.com . Like Curly said, if if the source of the problem is the alternator, most likely it's just the brushes being too old and worn. Here's some info on the subject: http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id13.html How old are your alternator and battery, anyway? If the brushes have never been replaced, the probability is good it is they. > "the loner" <theloner@nowhere.com> wrote > about an 89 Civic DX sedan [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > If the brushes have never been replaced, the probability is good it is > they. Hi again Elle. thenks for the links. The battery is about 1 1/2 yrs old, the alternator has brobably never been replaced. I looked through my old invoices & couldn't find anyting, but as I said, there's only 62,000 miles on it, so probably the brushes haven't been replaced I'll call them tomorrow am and ask about all this. If they do say I need a new Alternator, do you think that's a rip off? Should I ask for the brushes to be replaced first, and see how it goes, then get an alternator if the new brushes don't fix the problem? Thanks again everybody--probably a new update tomorrow loner > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >> "the loner" <theloner@nowhere.com> wrote [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Hi again Elle. thenks for the links. The battery is about > 1 1/2 yrs old, Done any jumpstarts on it? My site talks about how this will significantly reduce a battery's life. But it's more likely the alternator's brushes can no longer keep the battery charged. > the alternator has brobably never been replaced. I looked > through my old invoices & couldn't find anyting, but as I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > do say I need a new Alternator, do you think that's a rip > off? No, not necessarily. ISTM the labor it takes to do just the brushes can approach the total cost of replacing the whole alternator. Other parts go bad on alternators, just not as often. ISTM a car kept 20 years should need at least one alternator replacement in the course of those 20 years. If one is a do-it-yourselfer and has the time, then doing just the brushes makes sense. This is not so for someone who doesn't work much on cars and wants a repair that will (1) last; (2) not lead to throwing good money after bad. This is my rough impression, based on only one personal alternator experience, a little exploration on brushes, and a lot of reading. I am really not sure how often independent shops are willing to do 'just the brushes.' Look for others' thoughts on this. Tegger, Socalmike, Michael Pardee, JT, Curly (among other regulars)? > Should I ask for the brushes to be replaced first, and see > how it goes, then get an alternator if the new brushes > don't fix the problem? > Thanks again everybody--probably a new update tomorrow > > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote > >> "the loner" <theloner@nowhere.com> wrote [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > thoughts on this. Tegger, Socalmike, Michael Pardee, JT, > Curly (among other regulars)? Personally, I've generally opted for a rebuilt alternator (with a decent warranty) as bearings, diodes etc. become a factor after a significant period of time. Besides, I tend to be lazy at times... JT > No, not necessarily. ISTM the labor it takes to do just the brushes can > approach the total cost of replacing the whole alternator. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > brushes.' Look for others' thoughts on this. Tegger, Socalmike, Michael > Pardee, JT, Curly (among other regulars)? I tried brushes once on my POV; lasted 6 months, Just replace the alt (If needed)  SignatureStephen W. Hansen ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician ASE Automobile Advanced Engine Performance ASE Undercar Specialist http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troubleshooting/l/bl_obd_main.htm http://www.troublecodes.net/technical/ http://www.familycar.com/Alignment.htm >> No, not necessarily. ISTM the labor it takes to do just the brushes >> can approach the total cost of replacing the whole alternator. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> > I tried brushes once on my POV; lasted 6 months, I replaced my brushes too. I even did it by unsoldering the old ones from the holder and soldering in new ones from a local rebuilders ($5). At the time I didn't know you could just buy a whole new brush holder from the dealer. My soldering skills aren't great, but the new brushes lasted three years, and would surely have gone a lot longer, except the stator finally rusted to the commutator and locked the alternator up. 14 years of Canadian winters will do that... Ain't nothin' wrong with replacing the brushes on an ND alternator. Their bearings last nearly forever if the belt is properly tightened, and the electrics last similarly if the alt has not been abused. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > I replaced my brushes too. I even did it by unsoldering the old ones from > the holder and soldering in new ones from a local rebuilders ($5). At the > time I didn't know you could just buy a whole new brush holder from the > dealer. Bah... takes me about 10 minutes to swap the raw brushes into an existing holder. :P > My soldering skills aren't great, but the new brushes lasted three years, > and would surely have gone a lot longer, except the stator finally rusted > to the commutator and locked the alternator up. 14 years of Canadian > winters will do that... Bring it out to Vancouver... I think we had maybe 10 days that actually got below freezing this past winter :) > Ain't nothin' wrong with replacing the brushes on an ND alternator. Their > bearings last nearly forever if the belt is properly tightened, and the > electrics last similarly if the alt has not been abused. Yeah, like mine was with the hood-prop rod flopping over against the positive battery post... that was nasty. Burnt one of the brushes to a little carbonized crisp! >>the alternator has brobably never been replaced. I looked >>through my old invoices & couldn't find anyting, but as I [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > brushes can approach the total cost of replacing the whole > alternator. How do you figure? Labor to re&re the alternator either is the same either way... new brushes are about $5 and should take about 15 minutes to swap in... and on some cars, a nimble mechanic could change the brushes without needing to fully remove the alternator (like my '87 Accord where actually removing the thing from the car requires a degree in acrobatics). > Other parts go bad on alternators, just not as often. Going again from my '87, the voltage regulator module has to come out to replace the brushes, and removing the diode pack takes three nuts, four bolts, and 30 seconds more. Total time to actually replace everything but the windings shouldn't exceed 30 minutes. What's the cost of new regulator, brushes and diodes, vs. a complete new alternator? It's GOTTA be more than the value half an hour's labor. And again, with the '87 Accord, all this CAN be done without actually removing the alt from the car. > Elle wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > is the same either way... new brushes are about $5 and > should take about 15 minutes to swap in... I was thinking (1) the dealership for one will charge the book rate, which may assume the alternator has to be pulled off to replace the brushes; and (2) from reading here, not all brushes can be replaced with the alternator in place. I agree this will vary from model to model and maybe one year to another year. Hence I wrote "can approach... " Also, it's only an impression based on not a whole lot of data. We don't see too many reports here of folks who just replace the brushes and then six months later see, say, an alternator bearing failure. Then also if it's /not/ the brushes that are bad, the technician faces a comeback, and the customer faces an inconvenience and possibly more money spent than just slapping a remanufactured alternator in place. The brush assemblies go for about $19 (not counting shipping) at places like slhonda.com . >>>>the alternator has brobably never been replaced. I looked >>>>through my old invoices & couldn't find anyting, but as I [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > off to replace the brushes; and (2) from reading here, not > all brushes can be replaced with the alternator in place. Even so - the labor to take out one alternator and put in a new one is exactly the same as the labor to remove the alt and then put it back in with new brushes... so the only difference there is the cost of the brushes themselves and the labor to install them. If you get JUST the bare brushes and solder them into the holder yourself (easy enough for me), it's $5 plus about 15-20 minutes' labor (in addition to the re&re); if you get the complete brushes with holder, it's $20 plus 5-10 minutes to swap them into the alt. Either way, you're talking re&re labor plus maybe $40, vs. re&re labor plus the cost of a new alt (I've been quoted from $180 for a reman to $350 for a factory new ND alt for my '87 Accord). Slight difference there :) > I agree this will vary from model to model and maybe one > year to another year. If brushes are all that are bad, replacing them SHOULD be FAR cheaper than replacing the whole alt, regardless of year and model. (I wouldn't be surprised if there were exceptions with some British or Italian cars, who knows what kinds of strange things those bastards put in their vehicles). > Elle wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > a new one is exactly the same as the labor to remove the > alt and then put it back in with new brushes... If it is the brushes that are the problem, and assuming the consumer has told the technician to perform no diagnosis but instead just replace the brushes. > so the only difference there is the cost of the brushes > themselves and the labor to install them. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > get the complete brushes with holder, it's $20 plus 5-10 > minutes to swap them into the alt. We're not talking about someone do-it-yourselfing here. The consumer has to go find a technician who will do exactly as you describe. > Either way, you're talking re&re labor plus maybe $40, vs. > re&re labor plus the cost of a new alt (I've been quoted > from $180 for a reman to $350 for a factory new ND alt for > my '87 Accord). Sure. It seems not a bad gamble for a consumer to just order the shop to replace the brushes, even if the consumer is not 100% sure it is the brushes. I am still not sure this is the most reliable route to go with an old alternator, though. The bearings could go soon. The consumer gets to make another trip. S/he does not necessarily know what's wrong. S/he asks the shop to diagnose it. The shop techs start rolling their eyes: Coulda saved you money and time if we'd just slapped a new alternator in the first time. IOW, I still can't find reason to fault a shop for slapping a whole new alternator in place in an older car with the original alternator. I hope you're not overlooking the difference in economic outlooks on this matter for the do-it-yourselfer vs. the guy/gal that just wants a reliable ride at a reasonable cost. At the next sign of trouble with my 91 Civic's (second) alternator, I am going to do a little of my own diagnosis and most likely end up just replacing the brushes and the bearings. But in hindsight, I don't think I was messed over when several years ago the dealer installed a whole new alternator. Back then, I did not have the time to be messing with my car. > If it is the brushes that are the problem, and assuming the consumer has > told the technician to perform no diagnosis but instead just replace the [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > matter for the do-it-yourselfer vs. the guy/gal that just wants a reliable > ride at a reasonable cost. Right on the money, Elle. A shop that replaces only the brushes is risking having to hassle over who pays for a whole alternator when the inevitable callback happens (not on every one, but enough to hurt). Shops don't like to replace subassemblies when they can have a vendor assume the risks on full assemblies. Mike >> If it is the brushes that are the problem, and assuming the consumer has >> told the technician to perform no diagnosis but instead just replace the [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Mike Hi Mike, Elle and all Yup I opted for the new alternator-=-even with low mileage, the age of the car would have necessitated a new alt. sooner or later--and a new complete alt kinda gave me piece of mind . Thanks for everybody's input! loner >>>>>>the alternator has brobably never been replaced. I >>>>>>looked through my old invoices & couldn't find anyting, [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > consumer has told the technician to perform no diagnosis but > instead just replace the brushes. YOU'RE the one talking about JUST replacing the brushes: "ISTM the labor it takes to do just the brushes can approach the total cost of replacing the whole alternator." (see five quote levels north of here) >>so the only difference there is the cost of the brushes >>themselves and the labor to install them. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > consumer has to go find a technician who will do exactly as > you describe. So if you figure $80/hr shop rate, swapping the brushes should be an extra $20-$30 worth of labor in addition to re&re'ing the alt. >>Either way, you're talking re&re labor plus maybe $40, vs. >>re&re labor plus the cost of a new alt (I've been quoted [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the shop to replace the brushes, even if the consumer is not > 100% sure it is the brushes. Right, but YOU'RE the one who compared the cost of JUST replacing the brushes to the cost of replacing the entire alternator. > Elle wrote: >> If it is the brushes that are the problem, and assuming [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > approach the total cost of replacing the whole > alternator." (see five quote levels north of here) You're right. I misspoke. > Wento to go to mechanics this morning, car wouldn't start, like the > way a dead battery sounds. I kept trying, it finally started Plus > that brake warning light was no longer on!!! > Took it to mechanic anyway---so far he's thinking alternator. Why? What did he do to arrive at this diagnosis? SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >> Wento to go to mechanics this morning, car wouldn't start, like the >> way a dead battery sounds. I kept trying, it finally started Plus >> that brake warning light was no longer on!!! >> Took it to mechanic anyway---so far he's thinking alternator. > > Why? What did he do to arrive at this diagnosis? Hi Tegger--the only thing I know so far is that there is nothing wrong with the brake system (fluid, switch, wiring etc). When i tried to start it this morning, it wouldn't--it felt & sounded like a dead battery, even though my battery is 1 1/2 yrs old. After about the 7th try, it started. Coincidently or not, my battery died last week, but I had left the lights on for about 20 minutes & even then I didn't think the battery would run down after such a short period. I got a jump & it was fine until this past weekend-that's when the brake warning light came on, What are other symptoms of a bad alternator? It hasn't been put in yet, so I can call him first thing in the morning if I have other options. Thanks again so much for your interest loner > Hi Tegger--the only thing I know so far is that there is nothing wrong > with the brake system (fluid, switch, wiring etc). When i tried to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > What are other symptoms of a bad alternator? Under or overcharging, mostly. http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/carfaq5.htm#voltage Your guy ought to know how to test the battery and charging system. It's SOP for any good garage. How did you check the brake light circuit? Did you try unplugging the wiring at the master cylinder cap? SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >> Hi Tegger--the only thing I know so far is that there is nothing wrong >> with the brake system (fluid, switch, wiring etc). When i tried to [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > How did you check the brake light circuit? Did you try unplugging the > wiring at the master cylinder cap? To be honest, I'm very intiminated because of my lack of car knowledge, so I didn't do anything myself. The emerg.brake light warning was the initial problem, but today the brake warning light did not go on. Instead, I just couldn't get the engine to turn over-sounded like a dead battery, but I knew that couldn't be it-it's new I don't know if the brake switch was checked--it seems that because it took 7 tries to get it started, the brake warning light may have just been a symptom of something else, so they turned their attention to the starting problem. I'm sure they'll check the things you mentioned--those things weren't checked today because they ran out of time, so I left the car there to be worked on tomorrow. I am making a list of all things you all have mentioned so I can specifically ask them about each one. I do trust them, even though I just recently moved up here in the Sierras,but they seem up front & reasonable Next update tomorrow! Thanks! loner |
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