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Car Forum / Honda Cars / August 2006rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX
My daughter drives a 97 Civic EX that we have owned since new. It has 80K miles on it. We just got it looked at Gillman Honda here in Houston and they want to replace the clutch disk, pressure plate, throwout bearing, hydraulic slave and master cylinders. They also want to replace the shaft bearings on the manual gearbox since they are "noisy". They quoted me $2,800 for the work. I totally agree on the clutch work but also replacing the bearings inside the transmission ? That is a lot of work ! Thanks, Lynn > My daughter drives a 97 Civic EX that we have owned since new. > It has 80K miles on it. We just got it looked at Gillman Honda here [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Thanks, > Lynn Wow! I'd want somebody to pay me $2800 to replace bearings in a manual transmission, too! If you haven't heard the noise when you were driving, my inclination would be to thank them for their concern but I'd risk it. As long as the gearbox is properly filled with fresh Honda Manual Transmission Lube (which you should certainly expect to be done) the odds are in your favor - especially when they put the stakes that high. I agree on the rest of the work - it makes sense to me. You might want to ask: they're replacing the pilot bearing also, right? It is part of a proper clutch replacement. Mike >> My daughter drives a 97 Civic EX that we have owned since >> new. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> transmission ? >> That is a lot of work ! Can you hear any unusual noises? Grating or growling sounds? I'd make them demonstrate the noise first, either while driving around town or by putting the car on a lift and running it. In the alternative, get a second opinion. I base this on a whopping three weeks of instruction on manual transmissions but some other experience with large machinery bearings over many years. My instructor last week said even on a transmission overhaul, the shaft bearings were to be left alone unless there was evidence of failure. He said these bearings can last well past the life of a car, as long as they are properly lubricated (= sufficent oil in the case, and oil changed at specified intervals). >>> My daughter drives a 97 Civic EX that we have owned since >>> new. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Can you hear any unusual noises? Grating or growling sounds? Bad transmission bearings HOWL under load. They howl and whine in such a manner that there's mo ignoring it (whooOOOOOOOOOOOOO). You will have difficulty making yourself heard as you shout at your passenger. Once it gets to that stage, you'd better do something about it soon, otherwise one of these years the tranny will lock up on you. The test -- to be performed by an experienced technician -- is to drive the car to full-warm, park it in a quiet place, preferably close to a wall or side of another vehicle, then press and release the clutch several times with the tranny in neutral, while listening carefully. An experienced tech can tell bearing rattle from gear rattle. You should hear *my* tranny at 271K. Original bearings. Rattly as all get-out, but not *howly* yet. My guy figures I've got at least a couple of years to go on it. He says when it really needs attention, even my lousy ears will hear it! Personally, I've had two Toyota T-50 5-speed transmissions go bad on me. In both cases, the bearing noise was deafening. The design of this RWD drivetrain meant that so long as I stayed out of 5th, the bearing was not under load, so there was no noise. This tactic enabled me to forestall transmission replacement until I could afford it. Honda FWD transaxle designs do not permit such flexibility.  SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >>>> My daughter drives a 97 Civic EX that we have owned [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > soon, otherwise one > of these years the tranny will lock up on you. snip for brevity I am sure that elaboration will help. I was giving a (stinkin') ASE test (one test technicians take to become certified) answer(!). > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >>>> My daughter drives a 97 Civic EX that we have owned [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > several times > with the tranny in neutral, while listening carefully. This test makes perfect sense (since the clutch release and engagement alternately slows and speeds up the tranny input shaft, countershaft and mainshaft, riding on their bearings). > Personally, I've had two Toyota T-50 5-speed transmissions > go bad on me. You got me curious about how often this happens in Hondas. Doesn't seem like we have had many posts on failed tranny bearings in the last few years. In fact the Usenet archives seem to show a fair number of such failures being reported for Civics and Accords for around the last ten years or so. Not a lot (or so my very quick check indicated), but definitely enough to make me be on the lookout for this with my old 91 Civic. > You got me curious about how often this happens in Hondas. > Doesn't seem like we have had many posts on failed tranny [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > quick check indicated), but definitely enough to make me be > on the lookout for this with my old 91 Civic. Transmission bearing failure is due to two things: 1) High side-loading in use, and 2) low oil level. Side-loading is inevitable, and is present in all gears on a FWD Honda. How much side-loading a driver imposes on the transmission is a function of how gently he handles the clutch. If each clutch engagement is accompanied by a bump, jerk or bang, each one is a hit to the bearings. The more city driving, the more shifting, the more accelerating, and the more side-load. Minimizing side-loading dramatically increases bearing life. Low lubricant allows the bearings to overheat, damaging the hardening on the bearing surfaces. Excess friction also damages the plastic cage, allowing the balls to move around more, unbalancing side-load distribution. Three things you can do to extend the life of your gearbox: 1) Do more highway driving than city (not always possible, of course). 2) Learn to engage the clutch smoothly and gently. This CAN be done while driving in a spirited and entertaining manner. It is NOT necessary to bang the clutch to achieve rapid acceleration. 3) Change the tranny lubricant every year, or at least check the level every year and add as necessary. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > Can you hear any unusual noises? Grating or growling sounds? > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > properly lubricated (= sufficent oil in the case, and oil > changed at specified intervals). When I worked in a Honda repair shop I used to rebuild Manual transmissions. We replaced all bearings in the transmission as standard procedure. Eric > Elle wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > transmission as standard > procedure. I believe you, of course. It makes sense, at least per my reasoning farther down. The discussion with the instructor came up because of an ASE test question: Technician A says it is a good practice to replace all bearings when overhauling a manual transmission. Technician B says bearings can be reused when overhauling a manual transmission. Who is correct? A. A B. B C. Both A and B D. Neither A nor B The instructor said B was the ASE answer. He customarily will say when an ASE question is stupid, in his opinion, but instead this time he elaborated as described above. He also mentioned bearing costs. I see that the mainshaft and countershaft bearings purchased OEM online for my 91 Civic add up to about $108 total. This I imagine is a small fraction of the total cost of a rebuilt transmission by a reputable shop, especially one working with the dealer. Given this and the not too rare reports of Honda bearing failures, it makes perfect sense to me for a serious shop (e.g. the dealer or a shop with a reputation) to replace all the bearings. The risk of a comeback seems too high. Perhaps independent shops with somewhat shadetree oriented mechanics catering to a crowd on a budget and with low prices etc. might argue as the ASE question does. If I were the customer, I'd want the independent shop mechanic to explain this to me and give me a choice: Let him/er decide if the bearing needed replacement, or just replace all the tranny bearings, at an additional cost of xyz. Though I would think it's not like Honda owners have a pressing need to obtain rebuilt manual trannies. Do they? It's serious abuse that generally produces that need, ISTM, based on my whopping three weeks and one day of manual trannies course... > The discussion with the instructor came up because of an ASE > test question: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > instead this time he elaborated as described above. He also > mentioned bearing costs. To me this would make sense, provided the overhauler was experienced enough to be able to tell when a bearing is still good. It is normal practice to inspect transmission parts and decide whether to reuse them or not, depending on condition. An installer may decide to replace only the 2nd gear synchro assembly, for instance, and reuse the others if they seem OK. 2nd often wears first. I'd think the rebuilder would also be using the condition of other components in determining what kind of care the tranny had in its life. Severely worn shift forks and badly rounded dogs would suggest hard use (or abuse), and in that case, you'd be more suspicious of the other parts in there.. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >> The discussion with the instructor came up because of an [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > other parts in > there.. That all seems reasonable to me. Torn, I answered C (which as indicated, was marked wrong). Tech "A" made sense to me because ISTM as long as you're in there with everything apart, may as well change the bearings. I had a sense at the time they surely weren't that expensive especially compared to the total cost. At least for Hondas, they turn out not to be. But Tech "B" made sense to me because the class had spoke a few times of how the tearing down we were doing of these manual trannies was something we might never again do in our lives, as DIYers or technicians. That meant to me that the parts inside the transmission don't fail all that often (short of abuse by hot rodding folks etc.). Seems like the newsgroup's overall input might be C as well, though some may lean more towards one or the other. Just a silly test question. ASE test questions seem to have the goal of provoking thought, teaching vocabulary and I would say even teaching a bit of judgment. But they do not necessarily nail what's done in practice, as I'm sure like all of you regulars know. So a 70% passing grade makes sense. The discussion of these questions--including hearing differing experiences--while taking a course or preparing for the real exam is instructive and what counts, AFAIC. > But Tech "B" made sense to me because the class had spoke a > few times of how the tearing down we were doing of these > manual trannies was something we might never again do in our > lives, as DIYers or technicians. That meant to me that the > parts inside the transmission don't fail all that often > (short of abuse by hot rodding folks etc.). Abuse can also mean neglect. Many gearboxes and final drives fail due to low oil level, which is classed as neglect, plain and simple. NObody ever changes their tranny fluid. Noooo-body. Well 99.9%, anyway. And if it were me, and I had just spent six hours yanking and disassembling my tranny, you can bet your last dollar I'd be replacing those bearings no matter their condition! SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > My daughter drives a 97 Civic EX that we have owned since new. > It has 80K miles on it. We just got it looked at Gillman Honda here > in Houston and they want to replace the clutch disk, pressure plate, > throwout bearing, hydraulic slave and master cylinders. Why do they want to replace the clutch master and slave cylinders? Are they leaking? Or are they doing just as a precaution? I would leave them alone unless they're leaking. > They also want to replace the shaft bearings on the manual gearbox > since they are "noisy". You may want to get a second opinion on the transmission bearings. Is the car driveable? If so, perform the test Tegger recommended. With the car warmed up (both the engine and transmission) depress the clutch pedal. Do you hear any noises? If so, then they're probably coming from the throwout bearing which is normally replaced with the clutch. Now release the clutch. Do you hear any new noises that weren't there before? If the bearings are indeed noisy, you should hear a whining sound coming from the transmission that wasn't there when the clutch pedal was fully depressed. A good maintenance interval for the manual transmission oil is to replace it every 30K miles. Has this been done on your Civic? By the way, I should probably ask what symptoms the car had that lead you to bring it in to the dealer? Is the clutch slipping or was this just a regular service? For what it's worth, clutches can often last much longer than 80K miles. I have about 120K miles on my clutch with no sign of slipping but I tend to go easy on it and I drove mostly freeway miles. Eric > Why do they want to replace the clutch master and slave cylinders? Are they > leaking? Or are they doing just as a precaution? I would leave them alone > unless they're leaking. yes, they are both leaking. > You may want to get a second opinion on the transmission bearings. Is the > car driveable? If so, perform the test Tegger recommended. With the car [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > good maintenance interval for the manual transmission oil is to replace it > every 30K miles. Has this been done on your Civic? Yes, drivable. The oil has been replaced once to my knowledge. > By the way, I should probably ask what symptoms the car had that lead you to > bring it in to the dealer? Is the clutch slipping or was this just a > regular service? For what it's worth, clutches can often last much longer > than 80K miles. I have about 120K miles on my clutch with no sign of > slipping but I tend to go easy on it and I drove mostly freeway miles. The clutch felt "weird" and the tranny is very tough to shift in and out of gear when the engine is running. Yes, it does "growl". This is actually the 2nd clutch replacement. The car has really been abused. Both our kids were taught to drive in it. Plus my son ran it off the road one day and hung the tranny on the curb, moving it back 2 inches (broke the motor mounts). I have always wondered if the drivetrain was properly aligned after that. We reduced the amount of work done to replacing the tranny bearings ($500). It was another $650 to replace the gear shafts if they are worn also. So, I am $2150 for the work getting done right now. Thanks, Lynn >> By the way, I should probably ask what symptoms the car had that lead you to >> bring it in to the dealer? Is the clutch slipping or was this just a [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > ($500). It was another $650 to replace the gear shafts if they are worn > also. So, I am $2150 for the work getting done right now. Sigh. The Honda mechanic got it all back together and drove it. There was another noisy bearing inside the tranny that he missed before. The dealership is ripping the tranny apart again (on their nickle this time) and replacing the 3rd ? 4th ? 5th ? bearing for another $60. And 2 days more work. My goal is to get another 3 years out of this car at 10K miles/year. Not a bad investment, just painfull at the moment. My daughter has been driving her Mom's 05 Civic 5 speed EX SE for the moment. Now she wants to swap cars with her Mom ... Lynn |
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