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Car Forum / Honda Cars / September 200688 Accord LX shutting off after warming up
I just bought an 88 Accord LX and once it reaches running temperature it either starts misfiring severely then stalls or just straight up stalls. When it dies it's instant, like it just stopped receiving spark and then it will not start at all unless I let it sit for like an hour. When the car starts it's instant and idles at about 2200rpm then goes down to 880rpm in a bit and runs perfectly for a good 5-10 minutes that is. Only other thing is after it warms up smoke rises up from under the header intermittenly in large amounts, goes away sometimes if I turn the A/C on. Thanks a lot for the help, this is my only car right now so I'm hitching rides to work and the sooner I figure it out the better. My thoughts: Bad igniter or ignition coil Carb rebuild needed Choke problem Main Relay I just finished checking the PCV valve and although it does rattle, the plunger is soaked with oil I'm not sure if this is abnormal but it all does seem to be pointing to a bad PCV valve especially the intermittent oil smoke. Will replace it tommorow and update..... > I just bought an 88 Accord LX and once it reaches running temperature > it either starts misfiring severely then stalls or just straight up [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Choke problem > Main Relay ----------------------------------------- Main relay is VERY doubtful, since it's vibration that keeps a bad main relay functioning. Bad igniter or ignition coil sound like good candidates. Did you search this newsgroup for ALL the great posts about this topic? Is your coolant reservoir full up? 'Curly' the accord have a control for cold starting that make them run fast to warm up a cold engine. When, if at all, did you last replace little things like spark plug wires, distributor cap and plugs. the wires can do WONDERS for ignition probs. Take the below seriously. Also, use only OEM parts for the engine ignition parts. They pay for themselves. Also do the air filter and fuel filter and check the timing. Just replace the PCV valve. It's cheap enough, and they do get clogged over time. Replaced my 91 Civic's at 140k miles or so, and fuel mileage went way up. Because this seems temperature dependent, I am betting on the ignition coil for now. > the accord have a control for cold starting that make them > run fast to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the wires can > do WONDERS for ignition probs. >I just bought an 88 Accord LX and once it reaches running temperature > it either starts misfiring severely then stalls or just straight up [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Choke problem > Main Relay My '88 Accord LXi recently developed precisely the same symptoms, which were immediately resolved by replacing the TW sensor. Thanks for the quick responses, I work second shift so I have little to no time to work on the car. I spent A LOT of time searching the topics similiar to this but obviously each one is a little different than what I'm experiencing. I replaced the PCV valve before work and am going to try and wake up earlier lol to see if that helped. The guy I got it from said he recently replaced the spark plugs, wires, cap, and rotor but it has the original ignition coil so I will replace that tommorow too. > Thanks for the quick responses, I work second shift so I have little to > no time to work on the car. I spent A LOT of time searching the topics [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > but it has the original ignition coil so I will replace that tommorow > too. Don't overlook the possibility of severe carbon crud. I saw a severe case of this on a camry we have , and it will cause the same symtoms. I think it's probably a bit more critical on FI engines, but can probably do it with carbs too. I assume you have a carb, if it's a 88 LX... If the intake valves get carboned up, it will snowcone around the valves. The car will start great when cold, but as it warms up the carbon expands, and the car quits due to lack of compression. The valves won't close all the way. Let it cool, and it will runs again. For a short while... The camry we had in three shops, and the third was a dealer. None of them could find the problem. The yota dealer said it was a bad wiring harness, and charged us about $400 for their misdiagnosis. I asked them if they checked it, and they said, we can't. I had to laugh... Anyway, I took it home, and checked the harness myself, one wire at a time. All was good. Why they couldn't do this, I dunno.. Rookies I guess.. It took me a while, but I finally found out the real problem. SEVERE CARBON BUILDUP!!! It took me about a week to get it all cleaned out. I fed it a mix of carb cleaner and techron straight into the vac lines. Let it get good and wet, and then kill the engine and let it sit. Over and over. It's the sitting time where the crud actually melts. This also applies to using techron normally in the gas tank. The only time it's actually doing any good is when you kill the hot motor and let it sit. The more often you do that, the faster it will clean it up. You can get flush kits if you want to do it real fast. Or take to a place that has a motovac machine, etc.. Anyway, if all the usual tests like fuel output, spark, etc, etc turn up ok, I'd be eyeballing for carbon crud. BTW, a carboned up engine will really show up when under a heavy load. Often they will quit once the carbon gets good and hot. Also.. The carbon soaks up fuel vapors, and can cause lean running. Are you plugs white looking? Seem to run real lean? It can also cause hot spots in the chambers.. The carbon gets glowing hot. Can cause detonation, pinging, etc.. Even burn a piston in a bad case.. Carbon will cause all that. Nasty it is.. MK Thanks that info is much useful, as much as I hope it isn't the problem it sure sounds like it is. I just had it running with the new pcv valve and I cleaned the warm air flapper in the intake as it was gummed shut due large amounts of gummy oil, still didn't help it shut off after about 10 minutes and the coolant hoses were already too hot to touch. If I remember correctly when I pulled one of the spark plugs it WAS white too. Only other new thing is I shut the car off at about 5 minutes of running it and it dieseled a little bit. Thanks again for the help I WILL figure this out soon, Tanner >:( I worked on it from 7 am to 12 am to no avail in the blistering heat so you can imagine I'm about to give up as I HAVE to get to work I can't be getting rides ar 12am much longer. I checked all the vaccum lines, cleaned the warm air flappper, replaced PCV valve, replaced auxuliary fuel filter, tested choke function, tested fuel cut off relay function and related circuitry, listened to the fuel pump..........IDK. I orderd an ignition coil as I could get a spark plug to work when I pulled it out grounded it and cranked the motor over (after it had stalled). I Doubt this $45 fix will help it but it's worth a shot, also when goes to stall if I slam the gas it does nothing. > >:( I worked on it from 7 am to 12 am to no avail in the blistering heat so you can imagine I'm about to give up as I HAVE to get to work I can't be getting rides ar 12am much longer. I checked all the vaccum lines, cleaned the warm air flappper, replaced PCV valve, replaced auxuliary fuel filter, tested choke function, tested fuel cut off relay function and related circuitry, listened to the fuel pump..........IDK. I orderd an ignition coil as I could get a spark plug to work when I pulled it out grounded it and cranked the motor over (after it had stalled). > I Doubt this $45 fix will help it but it's worth a shot, also when goes > to stall if I slam the gas it does nothing. One other thing... When it konks out, does the speed of the starter get faster, or sound irregular? If carbon expands and keeps the valves from closing, the loss of compression will usually make the starter speed/sound change a bit. If you are getting spark, the present coil is probably good. With what you describe, I would probably suspect lack of fuel before lack of spark. But...It could still be carbon.. I was thinking you could do a pump volume test, but my book doesn't give a spec for volume vs time in seconds. They say to test the pressure with a gauge. The carb version should do 2.4-3.4 psi. MK > One other thing... When it konks out, does the speed of the starter > get faster, or sound irregular? > MK I don't recall it changing noticeably no. > >:( I worked on it from 7 am to 12 am to no avail in the blistering heat > >so you can imagine I'm about to give up as I HAVE to get to work I can't [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I Doubt this $45 fix will help it but it's worth a shot, also when goes > to stall if I slam the gas it does nothing. I agree with Elle; the coil is on the top of my suspect list. BTW - when you get the replacement don't forget it is a big no-no to fire the coil without a load. The coil will short out. Mike > I agree with Elle; the coil is on the top of my suspect > list. BTW - when you get the replacement don't forget it > is a big no-no to fire the coil without a load. The coil > will short out. Just reinforcing Mike's point about not firing the coil unloaded. Tegger's site discusses this. At least one poster in the last year destroyed a new coil or fairly young coil this way. > >:( I worked on it from 7 am to 12 am to no avail in the blistering heat > >so you can imagine I'm about to give up as I HAVE to get to work I can't [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I Doubt this $45 fix will help it but it's worth a shot, also when goes > to stall if I slam the gas it does nothing. Replace the TW sensor. Ok, again thanks for all the responses you guys are VERY helpful. I have the car scheduled to go in the shop tommow but i don't think thats gonna happen as I don't wanna get it towed 3 blocks away and drive it those 6 blocks uninspected, uninsured, unregistered AND pay a $65 an hour labor rate to get it diagnosed yet. Every other post I have read and what you guys are saying points to these exact things so what the hell they are old anyways so here's what I'm going to replace this weekend; Ignition coil, tw sensor (where is its exact location cant find info), check to see if the igniter has the proper heat-sink paste on the backside (how would I know if its wrong?) or just replace the darn thing, and gap the plugs. Typo before, I meant to say "I orderd an ignition coil as I COULDN't get a spark plug to work when I pulled it out grounded it and cranked the motor over (right after it had stalled), could just be that I didn't ground the plug good or am just blind lol. Although I cant hear the fuel pump working when I pop the auxiliary fuel filter off a little fuel does squirt out. UPDATE THIS WEEKEND STAY TUNED! > Ok, again thanks for all the responses you guys are VERY helpful. I > have the car scheduled to go in the shop tommow but i don't think thats [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > UPDATE THIS WEEKEND STAY TUNED! To locate the TW sensor, peer in to the engine compartment from the front of your car; the sensor should be about 1-1/2 inches to the left of the rear-left (your left) corner of the head cover. The performance of the TW sensor is sensitive to the presence of air in the cooling system. Before you replace the sensor, you might want to make sure that your cooling system - including heater core - is fully purged. Coolant level in the reservoir tank should be up to the 'max' line. Ok, thanks. Weekend was too hectic to work on it, I'm gonna wake up early tommorow and see what I can figure out. I will update if I get anywhere with it, I have to make a trip to NY on sunday to look at a turbo CRX :) So it will be awesome if I can drive it there. I'm going to replace the coolant, ignition coil, re gap plugs, and if both fail replace TW sensor. If this doesn't solve it I'm gonna take it to a shop because I'm NOT taking that carb off lol. Thanks Thread not dead YET haha I replaced the ignition coil and purged the coolant and it didn't help. What I did figure out however is that after it stalls it is definitely getting NO spark but I'm eluded as to why. ignition coil is definitely good and it still starts after letting it sit for a LONG time, Thanks in advance, Tom Another update* I just took it for my first spin around the block and it did just fine for about 12 laps then died like usual, had LOTS of power too not doggin it. Only things I noticed during the ride were I would hear an electrical clicking noise in the middle and left side of the dash and the battery light would flicker at the same time also looked like the high beam indicator would flicker red REALLY quick at the same time too. Other thing which is the bigger problem, the headlights and a few other things would flicker off and on every so often only doing it once at a time. Also keep in mind I was driving it with no battery. I stalled right before my driveway too aren't I lucky :p THANKS! > Another update* > I just took it for my first spin around the block and it did just fine [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > with no battery. I stalled right before my driveway too aren't I lucky > :p THANKS! Don't run the car without a battery - the battery stabilizes the voltage. Without the battery all sorts of bad things can happen... mostly damage to the alternator and electronics. No wonder you had such weirdness. Mike Alright she has a new batter, ignition coil, cap/rotor/, I gapped the plugs and it still quits after 10 minutes. No spark at all after stalling Red powder inside ditributor Should I replace dizzy as next step? > Alright she has a new batter, ignition coil, cap/rotor/, I gapped the > plugs and it still quits after 10 minutes. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Should I replace dizzy as next step? Dizzy shaft bearing isn't it.... > Alright she has a new batter, ignition coil, cap/rotor/, I gapped the > plugs and it still quits after 10 minutes. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Should I replace dizzy as next step? I'd do a bit more checking before you bought any more parts. It could be the distributor, but on a hunch, I pretty much doubt it. Are you totally sure you are actually losing spark? How is the ignitor? Radio noise cap? A flaky radio cap can cause problems like that from what I hear. It would be nice if you had a scope so you could watch the spark, etc as it happens. I've had cases where I thought I was losing spark, or say injector voltage, but was being fooled. I went through that on the camry that had the carbon problem. At first I could swear I was losing spark, but nope... It wasn't. But it took some decent test gear to be able to make sure. In my case, I have both scopes, and also a RMS peak reading voltmeter. They really come in handy in a case like this.. I may be all wet, but it still smells like a fuel problem to me. Either that or that nasty carbon keeping the valves open when it gets hot.. Just curious... Thats a 88, so should be a carb... When it cuts out, check the carb for the power valve making a squirt when you move the throttle. If it sprays, the fuel delivery is probably ok. You'll have to look down into the carb to see that spray. Or...As a 2nd quicky option. When it cuts out, spray a bit of gas, or ether, carb cleaner, in the carb and see if it fires right back up. If so, probably fuel. If not, it may be losing spark. Do you have a timing light? If so, it can be used as a spark indicator. Watch the light blink when it runs. If it quits blinking on that particular wire, it's losing spark. If not, the spark is ok.. But make sure not to confuse the engine quitting , with an actual lack of spark. IE: they may happen at the same appx time, and fool you into thinking it lost spark, when actually, it just quit fast nuff to quit sparking. I would think you should get a slow blink even just cranking the motor over. MK Just curious... Thats a 88, so should be a > carb... When it cuts out, check the carb for the power valve > making a squirt when you move the throttle. If it sprays, the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and see if it fires right back up. If so, probably fuel. If not, it > may be losing spark. BTW, if it did turn out to be a lack of compression due to carbon, it will not start even if the fuel is present. In that case, you should see a "slow" blink of the timing light indicating spark, and fuel at the carb, but still no run. I think the best way to verify carbon holding the valves open would be to do a quick compression test *before* it gets a chance to cool off. If indeed you saw a lack of compression from carbon, it should slowly return as it cools back off. The problem you are having almost mimics the carbon problem on that camry to a tee.. Not saying it's that, but it sure could be. BTW, if it is carbon, it will appear semi gradual as it warms up. Cold, it will run perfect usually. But as it warms up it will start to develop flat spots in the acceleration, and seem kinda boggy. Then it will start to have little power, and seem like it's slowly running out of gas. Finally. It's kaput, and stays that way until it cools off, and the cycle repeats. What makes me semi doubt your dizzy is bad, is that it conks out at the same time, every time. I would expect a flaky dizzy to be a bit more sporadic, unless it was some kind of thermal problem. I guess it could be, but I sorta doubt it's the problem really. If you lose your timing blink totally, I'd start checking everything from the plugs back until I got to the flaky part. But you'd probably need to do it while it's hot and acting up to find it. Once it cools, it probably won't show up from the way it sounds. MK > Just curious... Thats a 88, so should be a > > carb... When it cuts out, check the carb for the power valve > > making a squirt when you move the throttle. If it sprays, the > > fuel delivery is............. Thanks a ton for the advice, reason I suspect it is the distributor is because once it quits I cannot get any spark at all from the ignition coil and plug wires, also the red dust in the dist is accompanied by a decent amount of grease though I don't really feel much play in shaft. Also right before it quits it's running perfecly, no power loss/bogging. Got a used dizzy off of a 3geez.com member for $60 shipped so we'll see how that goes, if not I will look at other ignition components I haven't checked and after that take it to a freaking shop lol. Thanks, will update. Tom > Thanks a ton for the advice, reason I suspect it is the distributor is > because once it quits I cannot get any spark at all from the ignition [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ignition components I haven't checked and after that take it to a > freaking shop lol. Thanks, will update. Tom Hope that does the trick. MK Sorry one more thing I forgot (we should be able to edit posts), and this may sound retarded but what do you mean not firing the ignition coil unloaded? Making sure everything is connected? > Sorry one more thing I forgot (we should be able to edit posts), and > this may sound retarded but what do you mean not firing the ignition > coil unloaded? Making sure everything is connected? That's the best way - you can hold the wire near ground so a spark can jump, but just don't operate the ignition with no place for the energy to go http://tinyurl.com/fauw6. It zaps the coil, like this: http://tinyurl.com/hp5th Mike > I just bought an 88 Accord LX and once it reaches running temperature > it either starts misfiring severely then stalls or just straight up > stalls. When it dies it's instant, like it just stopped receiving spark > and then it will not start at all unless I let it sit for like an hour. -------------------------- Since the car is new-to-you, did you check to see if the igniter has the proper heat-sink paste on the backside (like a Pentium Chip). If it can't keep cool, it will shut down like you described. I think we had another one like this a few months ago. I may be wrong. 'Curly' |
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