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Car Forum / Honda Cars / August 2006'88 Civic starting problem
Okay, just helped a buddy swap a new engine core (block and head - D15B2, if memory serves) into an '88 Civic with dual-point PGM-FI. Kept the original intake and throttle body, all wiring appears to be back where it belongs. Engine was running before, but there was a big nasty crack down the block right behind the #4 cylinder. We're getting spark and compression, but no fuel into the cylinders - plugs come out completely dry even after much cranking. Fuel pump is working, and there's lots of pressure both before and after the forward fuel filter. Haven't checked where the fuel line bolts to the throttle body, but I don't expect there's a problem there either. I'm guessing something is preventing the injectors from working (again, this is the same intake and throttle body that was in the car and working previously). Didn't have any time to troubleshoot it tonight, so we're back at it tomorrow evening, so I thought I'd ask here for some pointers on where to check, what to test, how to determine where the problem may lie - any wires to check for signal or voltage, that sort of thing. Thanks in advance! > Okay, just helped a buddy swap a new engine core (block and head - > D15B2, if memory serves) into an '88 Civic with dual-point PGM-FI. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > determine where the problem may lie - any wires to check for signal > or voltage, that sort of thing. Does the Check Engine light come on for two seconds when the key is first turned to "II", then go off again? Any codes stored in the ECU? Did you reconnect the ECU ground at the thermostat? At the bottom injector, find out which of the two wires is "hot" with the key at "II" (the other one is grounded by the ECU when it wants the injector to turn on). Remove the connector, and carefully hook up a temporary connection from the hot wire to the hot side of the injector, then ground the other side of the injector to the block or some body ground. Does the injector now spray fuel?  SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >> Okay, just helped a buddy swap a new engine core (block and head - >> D15B2, if memory serves) into an '88 Civic with dual-point PGM-FI. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > the key at "II" (the other one is grounded by the ECU when it wants the > injector to turn on). The connector will need to be removed to do this since if the ECU is not actively grounding the ground side, the voltage applied to the 'hot' side will appear at the 'cold' side as well if still connected to the injector. > Remove the connector, and carefully hook up a > temporary connection from the hot wire to the hot side of the injector, > then ground the other side of the injector to the block or some body > ground. Does the injector now spray fuel? -- Graham W http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial WIMBORNE http://www.wessex-astro.org.uk/ Wessex Astro Society's Website Dorset UK Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter. >>>Okay, just helped a buddy swap a new engine core (block and head - >>>D15B2, if memory serves) into an '88 Civic with dual-point PGM-FI. [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > Dorset UK Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps > Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter. Thanks, guys... I'll take these with me to the shop. I didn't do any of the wiring re-connects so I can't guarantee anything just yet :) >>>> Okay, just helped a buddy swap a new engine core (block and head - >>>> D15B2, if memory serves) into an '88 Civic with dual-point PGM-FI. [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > Thanks, guys... I'll take these with me to the shop. I didn't do any of > the wiring re-connects so I can't guarantee anything just yet :) Okay, buddy's testing it (I'm not at the shop, home with a tweaked back muscle today)... he says there's no power on the injector wire. It does appear to be grounded to the thermostat housing (he's checking if it's got a GOOD ground) but he reads no power coming in. He notes there's a cut read wire hanging under the intake, coming out of a bundle along with one wire for the temp sending unit, and one for the oil pressure sending unit. There's no indication where it should go. And now he says it looks like the ground might be bad, so he's gonna fix that and try again. Meanwhile, he thanks you for your help as well :) He's GOT a Haynes manual for this thing, which he can't find... i'm SO much more useful with a good wiring schematic in front of me :) > He's GOT a Haynes manual for this thing, which he can't find... i'm SO > much more useful with a good wiring schematic in front of me :) Yeah? Then check here: <http://search.ebscohost.com/Login.aspx?lp=login.asp&ref=&authtype=ip,uid> log in with username: lib password: access Click Auto Repair Reference Center from the menu at left. Navigate to your car. There are wiring diagrams. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>He's GOT a Haynes manual for this thing, which he can't find... i'm SO >>much more useful with a good wiring schematic in front of me :) > > Click Auto Repair Reference Center from the menu at left. > Navigate to your car. There are wiring diagrams. Sweet, thanks! Meanwhile... he's determined there's no power to the injectors. Ground is good, but no signal into them. Waiting to see if he'll actually bother to check the ECM codes (I sent him the link from your FAQ). Thanks again... >>>He's GOT a Haynes manual for this thing, which he can't find... i'm >>>SO much more useful with a good wiring schematic in front of me :) [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > is good, but no signal into them. Waiting to see if he'll actually > bother to check the ECM codes (I sent him the link from your FAQ). Power to the injectors is from the line that comes from Terminal 7 of the Main Relay. The fuel pump and the injectors receive power from the same basic source, so the trouble is probably a disconnected wire between the Main Relay and the injector harness. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>>>He's GOT a Haynes manual for this thing, which he can't find... i'm >>>>SO much more useful with a good wiring schematic in front of me :) [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > basic source, so the trouble is probably a disconnected wire between the > Main Relay and the injector harness. Well, I actually got my hands on the car this afternoon and, with the help of the schematic (you ARE the man!), I think I found the source of the problem: the fuel pump is for some reason sinking TONS of current and causing the voltage throughout the car to drop excessively. Specifically: checking voltage at the injectors, I get only about 8.5V while they're activated, and closer to 5.5V when cranking. Voltage *at the battery* drops from about 12V to just barely over 8V for a few seconds as soon as the key is switched to Ignition, then jumps back up to 12V, nicely coinciding with the brief time the main relay switches on the pump and injectors. Connecting jumper cables to my running car, thus providing 14V to the system, allowed the car to ALMOST start as system voltage dropped to about 9.5V with ignition on, and 8.5V while cranking - it tried to catch a few times, but just couldn't quite fire up. After a little more tracing, I ruled out the injectors and internal wiring problems... looking at the schematic, there are only three things on that circuit - the two injectors and the fuel pump - so I figured either there was a "near-short" somewhere in its wire (a dead short would have blown the fuse), or the pump was having issues... as it turned out, unplugging the pump lead got rid of the strange voltage drop. So I'm thinking the pump probably has bad bearings or sleeves, or is badly gummed up, or in some other way is being prevented from turning freely, and thus is drawing excessive current, enough to drop the system voltage too low to operate the ECM and/or injectors, but not enough to pop the related fuse. Lordco was closed by this time, so my buddy's gonna pick up a new fuel pump tomorrow... but he'll be installing it on his own, as I'll be down at the football game! :) Hopefully that takes care of things... I'll let you know! >>>>>He's GOT a Haynes manual for this thing, which he can't find... i'm >>>>>SO much more useful with a good wiring schematic in front of me :) [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > Hopefully that takes care of things... I'll let you know! Say... you don't have a bunch of voltage between the engine block and the chassis, do you? I'm just wondering how the fuel pump can drop the voltage so much without blowing the fuse. Mike >>>>>> He's GOT a Haynes manual for this thing, which he can't find... i'm >>>>>> SO much more useful with a good wiring schematic in front of me :) [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > Mike likewise.... > >> Well, I actually got my hands on the car this afternoon and, with the help > >> of the schematic (you ARE the man!), I think I found the source of the [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > > likewise.... I'm wondering the same thing... If the pump is providing adequate pressure and has worked fine before then what happens to the voltage if the fan blower is on max after the pump turns off? >>>>Well, I actually got my hands on the car this afternoon and, with the help >>>>of the schematic (you ARE the man!), I think I found the source of the [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > If the pump is providing adequate pressure and has worked fine before then > what happens to the voltage if the fan blower is on max after the pump turns off? I don't know that it's providing ADEQUATE pressure... only that it's providing SOME pressure. >>>>>>He's GOT a Haynes manual for this thing, which he can't find... i'm >>>>>>SO much more useful with a good wiring schematic in front of me :) [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > chassis, do you? I'm just wondering how the fuel pump can drop the voltage > so much without blowing the fuse. I've wondered that as well... I figure it's probably pretty marginal. Thing is, the pump is normally on for only a couple seconds until you start cranking, at which point the voltage drops a lot more because of the starter. All major grounds are checked and solid - at first there was no standard ground wire from the battery to the block, so we use a set of jumper cables, both from the negative terminal, one to the block, one to the body. >>>>>>> He's GOT a Haynes manual for this thing, which he can't find... i'm >>>>>>> SO much more useful with a good wiring schematic in front of me :) [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > ground wire from the battery to the block, so we use a set of jumper > cables, both from the negative terminal, one to the block, one to the body. Oh, and... power readings at the injectors were tested with meter grounded to battery, block, and body, at different times (whichever was most handy for that particular instance). > Oh, and... power readings at the injectors were tested with meter > grounded to battery, block, and body, at different times (whichever > was most handy for that particular instance). Did ANYBODY attempt the particular procedure I prescribed? (To answer my own question: evidently not.) And does ANYBODY here EVER trim their posts? SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>Oh, and... power readings at the injectors were tested with meter >>grounded to battery, block, and body, at different times (whichever >>was most handy for that particular instance). > > Did ANYBODY attempt the particular procedure I prescribed? (To answer my > own question: evidently not.) I don't know if he tried any of the ECU readings. First thing I did when I got there was test for the injector power, since he already had the meter out, and noticed the excessive voltage drop... and proceeded to find the source of that. >>>>>He's GOT a Haynes manual for this thing, which he can't find... i'm >>>>>SO much more useful with a good wiring schematic in front of me :) [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > Hopefully that takes care of things... I'll let you know! It might be just a clogged fuel pickup. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net >>>>>>He's GOT a Haynes manual for this thing, which he can't find... i'm >>>>>>SO much more useful with a good wiring schematic in front of me :) [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > It might be just a clogged fuel pickup. If that was the case, there'd be no pressure on the pump and it would spin freely; it wouldn't be drawing a ton of current. >>>>>>>He's GOT a Haynes manual for this thing, which he can't find... >>>>>>>i'm SO much more useful with a good wiring schematic in front of [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > If that was the case, there'd be no pressure on the pump and it would > spin freely; it wouldn't be drawing a ton of current. No,a pump trying to pull on a clogged line draws more current. It spins freer under normal loads.Simple hydraulics. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net >>>>>>>>He's GOT a Haynes manual for this thing, which he can't find... >>>>>>>>i'm SO much more useful with a good wiring schematic in front of [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > No,a pump trying to pull on a clogged line draws more current. > It spins freer under normal loads.Simple hydraulics. If it can't pull any liquid in, there's nothing to offer resistance to the pump, is tehre? Besides, the pump is out now, and the intake filter is clean. > Hopefully that takes care of things... I'll let you know! Matt, hold off until you know for sure that this is the issue. Posting as-it-happens is an invitation to severe -- and likely inaccurate -- speculation. Your thesis is intriguing. I await the synthesis, empirically arrived at, of course... SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>Hopefully that takes care of things... I'll let you know! > > Matt, hold off until you know for sure that this is the issue. Posting > as-it-happens is an invitation to severe -- and likely inaccurate -- > speculation. Well, anyone who cares to speculate wildly and make fools of themselves are welcome to do so... :) > Your thesis is intriguing. I await the synthesis, empirically arrived at, > of course... Buddy picked up another fuel pump from an '89 Civic but it proved to not fit the tank - the assembly projects straight down from the mounting plate, rather than on an angle like the one that came out, and hits the bottom of the tank. Back to the wrecker... Okay, quick update... new fuel pump in, took care of the voltage drop problem... now we're getting an ALMOST-start. It cranks, it tries to catch, it won't quite take off. ECU gives a code 16 ("Fuel Injector System: defective circuit or unplugged / defective fuel injector".) Both injectors appear to work when independently powered. Both injectors seem to click while cranking. Looking down the TB throat, there's definitely gas being fed in from the main injector - hard to tell if the aux injector is doing anything. Holding the choke open manually helps a bit, but it still won't quite "catch". Lots of spark on all cylinders... firing order is correct as far as I've been able to determine without having found the EXACT manual for this specific car (1-3-4-2 clockwise from the bottom-left when looking straight at the top of the distributor cap). Getting regular "puffs" from the exhaust so there seems to be steady compression from all cylinders. Odd thing is, the plugs appear dry when I pull them out, so they're either firing or not getting any air/fuel mix, which doesn't make any sense unless the intake valves aren't working... and if that was the case I'd think I wouldn't get the "puffs" out the exhaust, if it wasn't drawing in any air. So near, yet so far away... *sigh* > >>Hopefully that takes care of things... I'll let you know! > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > on an angle like the one that came out, and hits the bottom of the tank. Back to > the wrecker... > Okay, quick update... new fuel pump in, took care of the voltage drop > problem... now we're getting an ALMOST-start. It cranks, it tries to > catch, it won't quite take off. > > ECU gives a code 16 ("Fuel Injector System: defective circuit or > unplugged / defective fuel injector".) Wanna take a second look at that Main Relay? SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >> Okay, quick update... new fuel pump in, took care of the voltage drop >> problem... now we're getting an ALMOST-start. It cranks, it tries to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Wanna take a second look at that Main Relay? yeah, no kidding... >>> Okay, quick update... new fuel pump in, took care of the voltage drop >>> problem... now we're getting an ALMOST-start. It cranks, it tries to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> > yeah, no kidding... Do you have anything useful to add, or are you just here to be a nob? >>Okay, quick update... new fuel pump in, took care of the voltage drop >>problem... now we're getting an ALMOST-start. It cranks, it tries to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Wanna take a second look at that Main Relay? Already did. All working fine. Came out of another working Civic, in fact. Like I said, the injectors ARE working, they ARE spraying fuel (at least, the main injector is). >>>Okay, quick update... new fuel pump in, took care of the voltage drop >>>problem... now we're getting an ALMOST-start. It cranks, it tries to [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Like I said, the injectors ARE working, they ARE spraying fuel (at > least, the main injector is). So you've for sure got spark, for sure the igniton timing is correct, and for sure the ECU is driving the injectors correctly now? Does the car start with a shot of ether? A code 16 sometimes does actually mean a defective injector. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>>>Okay, quick update... new fuel pump in, took care of the voltage drop >>>>problem... now we're getting an ALMOST-start. It cranks, it tries to [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > So you've for sure got spark, for sure the igniton timing is correct, and > for sure the ECU is driving the injectors correctly now? Heheheh, funny story... > Does the car start with a shot of ether? Wanted to try that, but buddy didn't have any in the shop, and at that point we didn't have time to go pick some up. > A code 16 sometimes does actually mean a defective injector. That's what I figured, but they seemed to bench-test fine. Anyway... buddy just called, he got it going: new plugs and a fresh battery and it fired right up. Apparently the Bosch Platinums that came in the thing were bunk, despite showing good soild spark when tested outside the engine(???). Would be interesting to see if the ECU is still giving an error code. I'm wondering if it might have been stored from when the bad fuel pump was still in; I can see how the pump dragging down the voltage could affect injector operation, since all three are on the same circuit off the main relay, and the ECU might read the lack of input signal from the injectors as a "bad" unit(s). Or it may have even stored that code from when we tested the injector wiring with them disconnected? How long does the ECU hold codes? So, another mystery solved... once again, I thank you all for your assistance, especially the masterful TeGGeR :) > >>>>Okay, quick update... new fuel pump in, took care of the voltage drop > >>>>problem... now we're getting an ALMOST-start. It cranks, it tries to [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > So, another mystery solved... once again, I thank you all for your assistance, > especially the masterful TeGGeR :) So, once again Bosch does it again. JT > Matt Ion wrote: >> Anyway... buddy just called, he got it going: new plugs [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> bunk, despite showing good soild spark when tested >> outside the engine(???). > So, once again Bosch does it again. Someone ought to compile statistics on how many times non-OEM plugs have been reported here to be behind starting/running problems. It might make the case easier to argue. Once again, another simple solution behind a major problem, too. > > Matt Ion wrote: > >> Anyway... buddy just called, he got it going: new plugs [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Once again, another simple solution behind a major problem, > too. Unfortunately, the Bosch reputation (regarding sparkplugs) ranks below that of Champion, a brand that I have avoided for many years. I always use AC, MOPAR etc in my vintage cars. Regarding modern tin, Bosch plugs fail easily. Let 'em get wet once, just toss 'em and start over again hopefully selecting another brand. No Bosch for this guy (well, their wiper motors are ok..) JT >> >>>>Okay, quick update... new fuel pump in, took care of the voltage >> >>>>drop problem... now we're getting an ALMOST-start. It cranks, it [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > JT I put a set of Bosch Platinum-2 plugs in my 94 GSR at ~57,000mi,and it starts and runs fine.It's been about 2 months now. The old plugs looked OK. How can new spark plugs be "bunk"? Were those the plugs that were in there when he acquired the car? Maybe old plugs,or gaps boogered? Maybe grease on the insulator? SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net > I put a set of Bosch Platinum-2 plugs in my 94 GSR at ~57,000mi,and it > starts and runs fine.It's been about 2 months now. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Were those the plugs that were in there when he acquired the car? > Maybe old plugs,or gaps boogered? Maybe grease on the insulator? They were the plugs that were already in the original engine, which HAD been running before we took it out. They were nice and clean and like I said, "bench-tested" fine. The plugs that came in the replacement engine were extremely fouled, which is why we swapped them out in the first place. >> I put a set of Bosch Platinum-2 plugs in my 94 GSR at ~57,000mi,and >> it starts and runs fine.It's been about 2 months now. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > replacement engine were extremely fouled, which is why we swapped them > out in the first place. So,the "new" plugs got fouled,too. Not the plugs fault. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net > >> >>>>Okay, quick update... new fuel pump in, took care of the voltage > >> >>>>drop problem... now we're getting an ALMOST-start. It cranks, it [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > Were those the plugs that were in there when he acquired the car? > Maybe old plugs,or gaps boogered? Maybe grease on the insulator? Sorry, but I've seen numerous Bosch (plug) horror stories in a variety of makes/models of vehicles. JT >>>>>>>Okay, quick update... new fuel pump in, took care of the voltage >>>>>>>drop problem... now we're getting an ALMOST-start. It cranks, it [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > starts and runs fine.It's been about 2 months now. > The old plugs looked OK. I've been running Platinum 2's in my '87 Accord for over a year now without a problem of a need for a cleaning - last time I checked them, they still looked near-new. *shrug* >> I put a set of Bosch Platinum-2 plugs in my 94 GSR at ~57,000mi,and it >> starts and runs fine.It's been about 2 months now. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > without a problem of a need for a cleaning - last time I checked them, > they still looked near-new. *shrug* I used Bosch Platinums in an '84 Nissan 300 ZX I had, and they worked great. Good thing, too, because plug access was the pits. I tried the same style in our '85 turbo Volvo (against the recommendations of thre Volvo gurus) and it worked for a few months before the engine began to misfire. I removed the plugs and saw there were only holes where there had been center electrodes before. Huh. Mike >>>>>>> Okay, quick update... new fuel pump in, took care of the voltage >>>>>>> drop problem... now we're getting an ALMOST-start. It cranks, it [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > Were those the plugs that were in there when he acquired the car? > Maybe old plugs,or gaps boogered? Maybe grease on the insulator? the problem i've had with bosch, repeatedly, is that one day they work fine, the next, the car won't start. you spend ages messing about trying to get the things to work, but they won't. although widely hated, i've had better luck with champion than bosch, even though construction quality on bosch appears better. ngk are by far the best way to go. especially when you consider that there's no price differential. they continue to fire even, when the electrodes are melted to little blobs. amazing things. no idea why, but that seems to be the way it goes. > >>>>>>> Okay, quick update... new fuel pump in, took care of the voltage > >>>>>>> drop problem... now we're getting an ALMOST-start. It cranks, it [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > electrodes are melted to little blobs. amazing things. no idea why, > but that seems to be the way it goes. Agreed. I've found that once Bosch plugs get wet, forgetaboutit... When I owned my first car, a 1940 Chevy back way back, Champions would begin to break down after 5K miles especially when going up hills. Family mechanic warned against Champions so switched to AC and no more problems. Champions (and probably Bosch) are good to fill the sparkplug holes for storage so that the mud dawbahs don't build nests... JT > When I owned my first car, a 1940 Chevy back way back, Champions would > begin to break down after 5K miles especially when going up hills. That was my experience in the '70s - misfire under load after a few months. I stopped using Champions and haven't seen fit to give them another chance. Mike > > When I owned my first car, a 1940 Chevy back way back, Champions would > > begin to break down after 5K miles especially when going up hills. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Mike Bravo! JT > Anyway... buddy just called, he got it going: new plugs and a fresh > battery and it fired right up. Apparently the Bosch Platinums that > came in the thing were bunk, despite showing good soild spark when > tested outside the engine(???). Did they show a purply-blue spark when tested out of the engine? That's the key. If, in a dark garage (or at night), the color is anything but purply- blue, then it's weak. And whay is it weak, well, it appears to depend on a number of factors. > Would be interesting to see if the ECU is still giving an error code. > I'm wondering if it might have been stored from when the bad fuel pump [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > from when we tested the injector wiring with them disconnected? How > long does the ECU hold codes? Good question. It's a certain number of startups, but I don't know the number. > So, another mystery solved... once again, I thank you all for your > assistance, especially the masterful TeGGeR :) Thanks for the attribution, but I think you and your friend pretty much solved this one on your own. You also appear to have had multiple problems, some of which exacerbated the effects of others. This makes remote troubleshooting difficult. This thread (and the issues it has highlighted) has given me a couple of more ideas for the "start problems" page, which is in the middle of an extensive rewrite. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>Anyway... buddy just called, he got it going: new plugs and a fresh >>battery and it fired right up. Apparently the Bosch Platinums that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > blue, then it's weak. And whay is it weak, well, it appears to depend on a > number of factors. It was a nice thick blue spark visible even outside in the bright daylight (but still under the shadow of the hood). > Thanks for the attribution, but I think you and your friend pretty much > solved this one on your own. Well, if nothing else, the link you provided to that schematic was key :) > You also appear to have had multiple problems, some of which exacerbated > the effects of others. This makes remote troubleshooting difficult. Heh... it makes local troublshooting difficult too! But I know what you mean, a lot of times when you're there in front of it, you may see or hear or notice something else that gives a clue you won't get remotely. I have the same problem all the time doing remote (phone/IM/email) computer support - something that may take an hour on the phone could be figured out in 5 minutes sitting at the machine. > This thread (and the issues it has highlighted) has given me a couple of > more ideas for the "start problems" page, which is in the middle of an > extensive rewrite. Cool. |
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