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Car Forum / Honda Cars / October 2006Bad Timing Belt?
Hello, The timing belt on my '95 Civic ESi (1.6L SOHC) is about 4 years old, and was used for less than 40K kms (25K miles). But I notice it had deep cracks on the outer (smooth) side, at each gap between the teeth. The cracks are mostly very straight, and so the belt looks "segmented". They're also deep, going about halfway into the belt's thickness. I have a feeling this isn't normal. Is it? If it's really bad, how could it possibly have gotten this bad, when it's still relatively fresh and was installed by the Honda dealer? I would really like to prevent it next time. Thanks in advance.. > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Thanks in advance.. Are you sure you're referring to the timing belt? Here's an illustrated index of the timing belt from the factory service manual. http://media.honda.co.uk/car/owner/media/manuals/CivicManual/pdf/6-18.pdf The reason I have to ask is that I've never seen a timing belt cracked as badly as you describe. If it was, then it would probably break in very short order and the car would no longer be running. Most timing belts fail well before then become cracked as you have described and that is after they've been in the car >90K miles though some do fail prematurely however that's rare. Eric I'm afraid that's exactly the belt I'm referring to. This model is a "domesticated" version of the EX, with basically the same engine (D16z6). I wouldn't even have seen the cracks if the mechanic hadn't pointed it out when I was having the tires rotated. When I got home, I removed the valve cover and belt cover, and saw the cracks. So this is bad, huh? I wonder what could have caused it... I hear these things normally last a long time. Thanks for the replies. > Are you sure you're referring to the timing belt? Here's an illustrated > index of the timing belt from the factory service manual. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Eric > I'm afraid that's exactly the belt I'm referring to. This model is a > "domesticated" version of the EX, with basically the same engine > (D16z6). > > I wouldn't even have seen the cracks if the mechanic hadn't pointed it > out when I was having the tires rotated. How'd the mechanic see it if there's a cover over it? What was he doing under the hood while rotating tires? > When I got home, I removed > the valve cover and belt cover, and saw the cracks. So this is bad, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> >> Eric  SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net Hello jim. It was on a lift for the tire rotation, and we decided to take it up a little higher to check under it. Using a flashlight, he basically saw just the lower section of the timing belt/pulley. I was skeptical too, at first, thinking the grooves were too regularly spaced apart. But when I got home and took the valve cover and belt cover off... Possibly this belt was put on *too* tight, or was of a quality for which the word "aftermarket" is too kind. Anyway I would love to do this myself, so I'm looking through the posts and reading the service manual, I still can't figure out how to take that stubborn "special bolt" off... > > I'm afraid that's exactly the belt I'm referring to. This model is a > > "domesticated" version of the EX, with basically the same engine [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > >> > >> Eric > Hello jim. It was on a lift for the tire rotation, and we decided to > take it up a little higher to check under it. Using a flashlight, he [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > and reading the service manual, I still can't figure out how to take > that stubborn "special bolt" off... Check out the options here: http://tegger.com/hondafaq/cranktool/index.html As TeGGeR says, an impact wrench is the overall best way. If you can rent a hefty electric one with a socket to match you should be okay. Note that regular sockets must not be used with an impact wrench as the brittle regular sockets can explode. In any event, don't blow off the need for eye protection. It can be a challenge, but it can be done. Besides the special techniques, I think the special bolt requires special vocabulary. But once it moves the rest is downhill. Mike >> Hello jim. It was on a lift for the tire rotation, and we decided to >> take it up a little higher to check under it. Using a flashlight, he [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Mike crankshaft pulley bolt torque spec for my B18 DOHC motor is 130 ft-lbs,so you'd need a impact driver with torque greater than that. (probably a LOT more!!) My Haynes manual suggests a strap wrench to hold the crank pulley still while using a 1/2" driver socket and breaker bar. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net >>> Hello jim. It was on a lift for the tire rotation, and we decided to >>> take it up a little higher to check under it. Using a flashlight, he [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > My Haynes manual suggests a strap wrench to hold the crank pulley still > while using a 1/2" driver socket and breaker bar. pah, haynes. good luck with the strap - you will indeed need "special vocabulary" trying to do it with one of those. bolts lock in there for /way/ more than 170ft.lbs to loosen. *** to the op, buy the proper holder tool, then sell it on ebay if you don't need it again. or you can rent the factory tool from some honda dealers. belt replacement is relatively straightforward once you remove the bolt, and get the accessories out of the way. a/c and steering pumps both move without the need to disconnect pipes, even though it may not be obvious at first sight. when installing the new belt, make sure you tension correctly. google this group on how to do it as it's been posted a number of times this year. write back if you have questions. Thanks. No shortage here of that "special vocabulary". Any other tricky things to watch out for? > Besides the special techniques, I think the special bolt requires > special vocabulary. But once it moves the rest is downhill. > Thanks. No shortage here of that "special vocabulary". > Any other tricky things to watch out for? Only to triple-check everything after you get the new belt on and before you put the cover on. Familiarize yourself with the adjustment (timing and tensioning) procedures. I think one of the links posted here talks about making marks on the edge of the old belt, transfering them to the new belt and using that to verify timing on the new belt. If not, ask for more details. Except for that forsaken crank bolt the job is really not that much worse than a brake job, and an impact wrench is the easiest way to loosen the crank bolt... especially if somebody else is using the impact wrench ;-) Retightening is not nearly so bad, especially if you have a holding tool. Even with just a strap wrench to hold the pulley you can get enough torque on the bolt. Mike It's a good idea to change the water pump while your in there. The first time I replaced the timing belt on my wife's Civic I never thought to do the water pump, 7000 miles later I was in there again replacing the water pump. The pump cost me $17, I really hated myself for not thinking to replace the WP while I was doing the belt. > Thanks. No shortage here of that "special vocabulary". > Any other tricky things to watch out for? > >> Besides the special techniques, I think the special bolt requires >> special vocabulary. But once it moves the rest is downhill. > Hello jim. It was on a lift for the tire rotation, and we decided to > take it up a little higher to check under it. Using a flashlight, he > basically saw just the lower section of the timing belt/pulley. It sounds like the lower timing belt cover was missing;it seems to me that the timing belt should not be exposed that one could see it. Maybe that's why your new belt is degraded? It was left exposed to the elements by a missing cover. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net > I was > skeptical too, at first, thinking the grooves were too regularly [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> How'd the mechanic see it if there's a cover over it? >> What was he doing under the hood while rotating tires? >> Hello jim. It was on a lift for the tire rotation, and we decided to >> take it up a little higher to check under it. Using a flashlight, he [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Maybe that's why your new belt is degraded? > It was left exposed to the elements by a missing cover. i second that. Hmm.. That could be it. I thought it funny for Honda to leave it exposed like that. Since the rainy season began, this car has waded through ankle-deep water a few times, and sometimes it splashes into the engine bay. Could it be that being hot and getting wet caused the cracking? I guess some previous mechanic forgot to put it back.. > Maybe that's why your new belt is degraded? > It was left exposed to the elements by a missing cover. > > Maybe that's why your new belt is degraded? > > It was left exposed to the elements by a missing cover. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the engine bay. Could it be that being hot and getting wet caused the > cracking? I guess some previous mechanic forgot to put it back.. "Mechanic" is too nice of a word for someone who "forgets" to reinstall the lower timing belt cover. Eric Here's an illustrated > index of the timing belt from the factory service manual. > http://media.honda.co.uk/car/owner/media/manuals/CivicManual/pdf/6-18.pdf ... odd that they refer to the drive / driven components as pulleys instead of sprockets. > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Thanks in advance.. Sure you don't mean one of the serpentine belts for the alternator, etc...?? Normally, the timing belt is covered and you can't see it. I would change any belt that was that bad, timing or serpentine... Slight cracks in a serpentine belt are ok, but if they are half way deep, I'd change it. That belt might run the water pump, "not sure on that model" and losing it is the last thing you want to do. Also, belts always fail at the worst possible time due to "Ruprects Law". MK "Ruprect's Law" ?? > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Thanks in advance.. if that were my timing belt, i'd drop everything else i was doing and fix it immediately. seriously. sounds like the dealer either didn't change the belt at all or that it was installed too tight. whatever the reason, that is a very sick belt and cannot be trusted another inch. Thanks to everyone for taking time to reply. I posted a photo, if you're curious: http://hondaswap.com/attachments/general-tech-maintenance/1034d1159641356-my-cra cked-timing-belt-treo_093006_001.jpg > Thanks to everyone for taking time to reply. I posted a photo, if > you're curious: > > http://hondaswap.com/attachments/general-tech-maintenance/1034d1159641356-my-cra cked-timing-belt-treo_093006_001.jpg dude, that's in seriously bad condition. you were lucky to catch it before it broke. it's guess the belt was /way/ over-tight. > Thanks to everyone for taking time to reply. I posted a photo, if > you're curious: > > http://hondaswap.com/attachments/general-tech-maintenance/1034d1159641356-my-cra cked-timing-belt-treo_093006_001.jpg DO NOT pass Go. DO NOT collect $200. DO NOT drive your car or go directly to jail. That is the worst belt I have seen on a car that is still running! Replace it now or risk it breaking and bending valves, then you'll have to pull the head. See some of my prior messages about timing belts... http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos.honda/msg/7e2a5e7fb18a4a0 http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos.honda/msg/800ecbf770a26237 http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos.honda/msg/8ca278c5ecaf39bc This is the tool you'll want to use to hold the pulley so you can break the pulley bolt loose... http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=7869 From your photo, it looks like you'll also want to replace the upper and lower covers and gaskets especially if they are warped due to oil exposure. As my other posts have stated, replace the water pump, cam and front crank seals, and timing belt tensioner. If this project seems overwhelming, then find a good independent shop that specializes in Hondas to do it for you. An incorrectly installed timing belt can cost you your engine. Eric > This is the tool you'll want to use to hold the pulley so > you can break the > pulley bolt loose... > > http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=7869 I was curious about what Ebay currently has to offer. A few like the one pictured at the link above are available, but there is also this, for the price of $19 before shipping and handling: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PERFORMANCE-TOOL-HONDA-45MM-CRANK-PULLEY-HOLDING- TOOL_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ35625QQihZ007QQitemZ170023050838QQrdZ1QQsspagena meZWD1V Anyone tried this version? > I was curious about what Ebay currently has to offer. A few like the one > pictured at the link above are available, but there is also this, for the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Anyone tried this version? No, but it looks like it should do the job. The weld between the fitting and the stamped handle might not hold up to repeated use. Mike > Thanks to everyone for taking time to reply. I posted a photo, if > you're curious: > > http://hondaswap.com/attachments/general-tech-maintenance/1034d1159641356-my-cra cked-timing-belt-treo_093006_001.jpg Gee, thanks. Now I have the willies! The timing belt on our old (non-interference) Volvo developed some crazing on the back of the belt before I changed it, but I never thought I'd see anything like that and the engine still running. Mike Mike > The timing belt on my '95 Civic ESi (1.6L SOHC) is about 4 years old, > and was used for less than 40K kms (25K miles). But I > notice it had [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > really like to > prevent it next time. From reading here and elsewhere, and keeping an eye on my own, 91 Civic's timing belt, I agree this does not seem normal. Do you know who the belt manufacturer was? Who changed it last, anyway, the dealer or an independent shop? Maybe ask them from where they get the belts, or it might be printed on the belt. OTOH I do not recall reading caveats about belt manufacturers, perhaps because there are so few manufacturers and they generally produce high quality belts. What sort of driving conditions does this car see? Anything that would qualify as "extreme" per your owner's manual? E.g. a lot of dust, cold starts, Canada-like temperature extremes? Has oil per chance leaked onto the belt? There are cautions about avoiding this on the net and when changing it. Jim Yanik's theory sounds plausible, too. On my 91 Civic, I do not think one can see the sort of detail you're describing by looking at the belt from the bottom. The angle is too extreme. On the "special" pulley bolt: If I (an amateur who has slowly been accumulating more proficiency in the last ten years) can get it off using hand tools, I think just about anyone can. The route that may be most reliable and least expensive may be taking the car to a garage, having them use their super-duper air impact wrench to loosen the bolt, then just snugging it up for the presumably short trip home. That bolt typically requires serious torque to break free, but I think that's mostly due to it being a fine thread subject to heat cycling over a period of years, so the female and male thread metals tend to "meld" together. A lot of folks here report having just run the car to their local garage and tipping the techs there $10-$15 or so for breaking the bolt free. Another resource: http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id6.html I trust you are not driving the car at this point. Doing so risks a broken or failed belt, potentially destroying the engine. > What sort of driving conditions does this car see? Anything > that would qualify as "extreme" per your owner's manual? > E.g. a lot of dust, cold starts, Canada-like temperature > extremes? Apart from wading into ankle-deep water a few times, it doesn't see very extreme conditions. Weather is mild here, if somewhat hot and humid. No evidence of oil on the belt, at least not now. It did have a slight leak at the head gasket, before I replaced it. It's an easy jump from there to the belt. As cars this age go, it has relatively low mileage: less than 60K miles. > On the "special" pulley bolt: If I (an amateur who has > slowly been accumulating more proficiency in the last ten > years) can get it off using hand tools, I think just about > anyone can. Thanks for the advice, Elle. Since getting all your responses, I prudently avoided running the engine. This afternoon I sprayed penetrating oil into the bolt, to maybe help it along. What hand tools did you use? I assume you made your own special wrench. > Elle wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > an easy jump > from there to the belt. I was remiss before: Any liquid falling on the timing belt can reduce its life significantly. So shucks yes, a missing lower cover sure could do this, from my reading, especially if you've been driving through some flooded roads. Confirm that timing belt cover really is missing via the exploded parts drawings at www.slhondaparts.com . Order a new belt and new cover. Replace. Hopefully you'll be good to go. Also, Eric is one of the Kings here; incredibly experienced. Believe whatever he tells you. > As cars this age go, it has relatively low mileage: less > than 60K [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > What hand tools > did you use? I assume you made your own special wrench. Yes, but yours takes a different version. Both are shown at my amateur web site, previously linked in this thread, and there is a link to a description of a home-made one. Or, as Eric said, you can buy the tool. I think if you shop around a bit on the net, you can find a somewhat cheaper one, like for around $25 before shipping/handling. Ebay is definitely worth checking, too. > I was remiss before: Any liquid falling on the timing belt can reduce its > life significantly. So shucks yes, a missing lower cover sure could do > this, from my reading, especially if you've been driving through some > flooded roads. It occured to me - I was talking with our fiber optic cable guru just this week about some damage we had up here from a falling tree, and he was concerned whether the Aramid/Kevlar strands were exposed. He said water severely reduces the strength of Kevlar. I bet the same threads are used for strength in the timing belts, in which case water exposure could cause the sort of "chapping" action the picture shows. I don't see much on the net about it, though. Mike > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >> I was remiss before: Any liquid falling on the timing [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > I don't see much on the net about it, though. Good anecdote. I agree that tool I linked earlier looks flimsier. I would hope it would last at least two TB changes, which is pretty good for $25 total or so. Since "Performance Tool" makes it, then IIRC Pep Boys might carry it, and one could ask what the return policy was. It's specifically supposed to work on certain Hondas, per the description, so I would think PB would refund money readily if it broke the first time around. Note to some others: If you cannot see the detail in the photo the OP linked, do not feel bad. Neither can I. |
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