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Car Forum / Honda Cars / November 200698 accord needs oil pan
I have been told by my servicing Honda dealer that my 1998 Accord EXV6 has an oil pan with a stripped drain plug and self tapping plugs which they are now using is only a temporary fix. The car has 110,000 miles on it and the dealer has done most ALL of its oil changes. I really though that only Jiffy Lube stripped Honda pans, not the dealers, but I can understand that a car with my mileage may have this issue. (?) My dealer wants $130 for the pan and $250 installation. Seems excessive as an OEM pan is available on line for $48.00 from Majestic Honda! Anyone with an idea on an "acceptable" cost to replace the oil pan on my car in the Long Island, New York area?? Thanks, Matthew > I have been told by my servicing Honda dealer that my 1998 Accord EXV6 has > an oil pan with a stripped drain plug and self tapping plugs which they are [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Thanks, > Matthew you may have the aluminum pan, in which case it is more expensive. either way, stripped drain plug is imo a crime punishable by moving your business elsewhere. > I have been told by my servicing Honda dealer that my 1998 Accord EXV6 has > an oil pan with a stripped drain plug and self tapping plugs which they are [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > dealers, but I can understand that a car with my mileage may have this > issue. (?) It should never happen unless the plug was put in cross-threaded, or it was over-tightened. Find a new dealership to do your service. > My dealer wants $130 for the pan and $250 installation. Seems excessive > as an OEM pan is available on line for $48.00 from Majestic Honda! That's the price of dealing with a dealer. You could try talking to the service manager, to see if he will cut you a break, since the damage was obviously done by his shop... >> I have been told by my servicing Honda dealer that my 1998 Accord EXV6 >> has [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > It should never happen unless the plug was put in cross-threaded, or it > was over-tightened. Find a new dealership to do your service. I'm not so sure. We are the second owners of my daughter's '93 Accord, and the previous owner relied too much on Midas for service (original timing belt at 163K miles!) Still, we made it through about half a dozen do-it-myself oil changes before the oil drain bolt stripped. Had Midas been overtorqueing the bolt and it finally caught up with me? Dunno. But I suspect even torqueing "by the book" results in gradual erosion of the pan threads. I can testify that a mechanic can do it exactly right, even several times, and still the bolt may strip. It also seems to be a uniquely Honda phenomenon; I haven't seen any other make that has this problem... unless cross-threaded, of course. NAPA carries single and double oversize drain bolts for Hondas. Hers now has a single oversize and it has done well through a handful of oil changes. My only complaint is that it doesn't thread in very far by hand the way the original did, but it does thread far enough to ensure it isn't cross-threading. I recommend leaving it at as-is unless and until there is another stripped thread. If that happens, at least it won't be with a new pan! Mike <snip> > We are the second owners of my daughter's '93 Accord, > and the previous owner relied too much on Midas for service (original [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Dunno. But I suspect even torqueing "by the book" results in gradual > erosion of the pan threads. It does not. The single and sole cause of stripped oil pan drain bolt threads is overtorquing. Too many mechanics (even dealership ones, unfortunately) hand-torque the bolt to save time, usually overdoing it by a considerable margin. The first oil pan in my Integra made it barely 3 years with oil changes exclusively by an Acura dealer. The second, well...It's still on there. > I can testify that a mechanic can do it > exactly right, even several times, and still the bolt may strip. Unlikely. Do it right, right from the start, and that bolt will go a long long time before it strips. And I mean a decade or more, or well over 100 oil changes. > It > also seems to be a uniquely Honda phenomenon; It is. It has to do with the way Honda makes the threads in the oil pan. The official Honda cure is Heli-Coil.  SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ ><snip> > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > The official Honda cure is Heli-Coil. Then perhaps this? http://www.fumotovalve.com/ SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net > "TeGGeR�" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in > news:Xns987B4E76F9883tegger@207.14.116.130: [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > http://www.fumotovalve.com/ over my dead body. >> http://www.fumotovalve.com/ Fram had something like this for sale many years ago. I bought one, but never installed it. Possibility of a bad outcome scared me too much. bob >>> http://www.fumotovalve.com/ > > Fram had something like this for sale many years ago. I bought > one, but > never installed it. Possibility of a bad outcome scared me too much. > bob What scares me more than anything else is that the thing hangs down below the oil pan bottom. Can you say "exposed", boys and girls? SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >>>> http://www.fumotovalve.com/ >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > What scares me more than anything else is that the thing hangs down > below the oil pan bottom. Can you say "exposed", boys and girls? It wouldn't on my 94 Integra GSR;the oil plug is on the side not the bottom of the pan.You'd tear up your oil pan (and everything else under your car) before you got the valve. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net > What scares me more than anything else is that the thing hangs down > below the oil pan bottom. Can you say "exposed", boys and girls? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ > www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ I guess it depends on the model. I had the same concern when I had one installed in my 98 Civic (because of negligent service at oil changing places). That is, until you notice that the plug is behind the pan and that the valve comes at an angle. Its end is still above the pan bottom, to tear it apart you have to rip open the pan first. Serban >> What scares me more than anything else is that the thing hangs down >> below the oil pan bottom. Can you say "exposed", boys and girls? [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Serban Makes me wonder if Tegger has ever been under his Integra to change his oil. (I doubt his VTEC is any different than mine in that respect.) ;-) SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net > Makes me wonder if Tegger has ever been under his Integra to change > his oil. (I doubt his VTEC is any different than mine in that > respect.) According to my stats, I've changed my oil myself approximately 95 times since the warranty ran out in 1994. (Interesting. In 1994 I paid $7.11 for a gallon of Castrol GTX at K-Mart. The same stuff is up over $20 in 2006. Wow!) The drain bolt is barely hidden by the oil pan, maybe 1/4" up from the lowest point. From a quick look at the link that was provided of that spigot-thingy, I couldn't see how it would go on without sticking down below the oil pan's bottom. If I was wrong, I was wrong. I still won't use those things. And I don't have VTEC! SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > According to my stats, I've changed my oil myself > approximately 95 times [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > GTX at K-Mart. > The same stuff is up over $20 in 2006. Wow!) Gotta buy some of that oil stock with the money you save by doing so much car maintenance yourself. I finally had it with gas prices and surrendered in September ago, purchasing my first oil company position. ;-) "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in news:ieQ6h.7857 $ig4.7254@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net: >> According to my stats, I've changed my oil myself >> approximately 95 times [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > with gas prices and surrendered in September ago, purchasing > my first oil company position. ;-) Except oil prices are going down now... SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >>> According to my stats, I've changed my oil myself [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Except oil prices are going down now... Historically, oil stock price growth and stock dividend growth have beat inflation by a lot. This of course is consistent with your observation above on the Castrol oil. > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in news:ieQ6h.7857 > $ig4.7254@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > -- > TeGGeR® Yeah but... It's curious on how some oil related stuff never goes down. Products like propane, motor oil etc simply become a cash cow to big oil. Gas prices OTOH are an everyday encounter so smart business requires attention by producers to maintain (what they think) the market will bear. JT (Grumpier than normal today..) > > Makes me wonder if Tegger has ever been under his Integra to change > > his oil. (I doubt his VTEC is any different than mine in that [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ > www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ Mite hit a score spot but wallmart sell a five quart container for under ten bucks GTX >> It has to do with the way Honda makes the threads in the oil >> pan. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > http://www.fumotovalve.com/ Or just torque the damn bolt properly. Last time I had the local dealer do an oil change (some time last year) I noticed a notation on the invoice that stated the drain bolt had been "hand-torqued". I thought, uh-oh...What's the opposite of that? SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > Last time I had the local dealer do an oil change (some time last year) I > noticed a notation on the invoice that stated the drain bolt had been > "hand-torqued". I thought, uh-oh...What's the opposite of that? May it mean that they DIDN"T use one of those fancy new extensions that apply the correct torque automatically? Just a guess. bob Well, I already spoke to the service manager at my dealer who after quoting me the outrageous price of $380 I very politely explained to him that HIS service dept is likely responsible for the stripped plug. His response was NO, it was age and the best he would do is discount the bill a whipping 10%!!! When Jiffy Lube did it to my '88 Accord I complained to corporate who promptly and without argument reimbursed me for my new pan. But my dealer.....????? Now I am pissed and am ready to go corporate to Honda as well. Any suggestions on that route?? Thanks again, Matthew > > Last time I had the local dealer do an oil change (some time last year) I > > noticed a notation on the invoice that stated the drain bolt had been > > "hand-torqued". I thought, uh-oh...What's the opposite of that? > > May it mean that they DIDN"T use one of those fancy new extensions that > apply the correct torque automatically? Just a guess. bob I called American Honda and opened a case. Awaiting a response... > Well, I already spoke to the service manager at my dealer who after quoting > me the outrageous price of $380 I very politely explained to him that HIS [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > May it mean that they DIDN"T use one of those fancy new extensions that > > apply the correct torque automatically? Just a guess. bob > Then perhaps this? > > http://www.fumotovalve.com/ They are a neat idea, but I don't like the fact that the oil in the bottom of the pan cannot be drained. I suppose you could run a quart through after emptying to clean the bottom a bit, but it would be nice if someone would come up with such a solution straight from the factory that would actually empty the pan... >That's the price of dealing with a dealer. You could try talking to the >service manager, to see if he will cut you a break, since the damage was >obviously done by his shop... Dealer swore to me it's natural after ten years or so, ... no? J. >> That's the price of dealing with a dealer. You could try talking to the >> service manager, to see if he will cut you a break, since the damage was [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > J. ten years of what? ten years of over-torque, yes, it'll fail. 10 years of correct usage? no. > >> That's the price of dealing with a dealer. You could try talking to the > >> service manager, to see if he will cut you a break, since the damage was [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > ten years of what? ten years of over-torque, yes, it'll fail. 10 years > of correct usage? no. I have an '82 and '83 Honda Civic and both as far as I can tell have original oil pans with the correct plug. Oil pan drain plug problems are not limited to Hondas if my experience counts for anything over the past forty years... JT >>>> That's the price of dealing with a dealer. You could try talking to the >>>> service manager, to see if he will cut you a break, since the damage was [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > JT imo, the only thing wrong with the honda plug is that it's got a big bolt head in a nice accessible position where a knuckle-dragger can go nuts on it with a long wrench. if they had a 3/8" square socket like the auto transmissions, i don't think we'd ever see this problem. >>That's the price of dealing with a dealer. You could try talking to the >>service manager, to see if he will cut you a break, since the damage was [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > J. Ask the dealer if there are any other bolts in the car that he considers it normal to have strip after 10 years of normal use and torque... Maybe the spark plugs. Boy would THAT be a good deal for a dealership. Under normal torque, without being cross-threaded, the threads should last forever. If they don't, then there is a problem with Honda that needs to be fixed. > Under normal torque, without being cross-threaded, the threads should last > forever. If they don't, then there is a problem with Honda that needs to > be fixed. Actually, I suspect that's the case. Even with careless torque other makes seem to hold up forever. I don't think I've even seen the subject come up in other auto fora. It would make more sense if the annulus the plug screws into were aluminum. I'm pretty sure it's steel so I don't know what to make of it. Mike Mike, Joe, Jim...I just hope American Honda agrees with you guys (and me!) The more I think about it, the more aggravated I get with the dealer. Unusual since this dealer has really taken good care of me service wise... I'll post again after I hear from the arbitrator. > > Under normal torque, without being cross-threaded, the threads should last > > forever. If they don't, then there is a problem with Honda that needs to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Mike > Mike, Joe, Jim...I just hope American Honda agrees with you guys (and me!) > The more I think about it, the more aggravated I get with the dealer. > Unusual since this dealer has really taken good care of me service wise... > I'll post again after I hear from the arbitrator. "good service" means never getting to this stage. they should have at least offered to compromise - if they didn't eat the cost entirely. it's not worth losing a customer over a $130 part. >>> Under normal torque, without being cross-threaded, the threads should > last [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> >> Mike > Actually, I suspect that's the case. Even with careless torque other makes > seem to hold up forever. I don't think I've even seen the subject come up in > other auto fora. > > Mike Maybe they did not put in a new aluminum washer and tried to reuse the old one. This guarantees that they'll have to overtighten it to get that snug feeling. Cross-threading is probably less an occurence than careless and cut-the-corners service. Serban Just posting a follow-up. Three days after calling American Honda to file a case, The service manager from the dealer called...(NOT the one who offered me 10% off.) He had heard from my case manager and very politely asked what he could to rectify the situation. I said "replace my oil pan". Without a pause he said "OK, when do you want to bring it in?" NO cost me me. I would have expected nothing less from Honda. Thanks for all of your input on this matter. Matthew NOW the question remains...can I feel comportable continuing to bring it to them for fear of doing it again??? From now on I will have them put in MY service notes: "Be sure to place new drain plug, new washer and hand torque to factory specs" !! > > Actually, I suspect that's the case. Even with careless torque other makes > > seem to hold up forever. I don't think I've even seen the subject come up in [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Serban IMO one's best bet is to change the oil one's self. If you absolutely cannot do this, then buy the washers yourself at the dealer or an online parts site like www.slhonda.com (maybe with a bunch of OEM oil filters, too, to make the shipping economical). Then wherever you take the car for an oil change, pointedly have the shop promise to use the new washer and not to overtorque the drain plug. Tell them what happened before. I cannot say for sure, but based on reading reports here, I think the stripping could very well be normal wear and tear. Honda may have done you a huge favor by arranging to have the oil pan changed at no charge. Problem is, one cannot say for sure. > Just posting a follow-up. Three days after calling > American Honda to file a [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >> >> Serban > Just posting a follow-up. Three days after calling American Honda to > file a case, The service manager from the dealer called...(NOT the one > who offered me 10% off.) He had heard from my case manager and very > politely asked what he could to rectify the situation. I said "replace > my oil pan". Without a pause he said "OK, when do you want to bring it > in?" NO cost me me. I would have expected nothing less from Honda. Excellent! > Thanks for all of your input on this matter. > Matthew [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > From now on I will have them put in MY service notes: "Be sure to > place new drain plug, That sounds like you want them to replace the *drain plug* every time they change your oil.It's not the cause of the overtorquing or crossthreading. > new washer and hand torque to factory specs" !! Perhaps you meant "place NEW washer on drain plug and torque to factory specs by hand".? SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net $300. bucks on my '88 about 10 years ago. In RI. Jiffy Lube Asassins! My advice? Weld it up and go to those places that suck the oil out the top. Amazing how they so much so right, then they screw up the oil pan design. I now carry an expandable rubber plug in each Honda, just in case.... Norman > I have been told by my servicing Honda dealer that my 1998 Accord EXV6 has > an oil pan with a stripped drain plug and self tapping plugs which they are [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Thanks, > Matthew |
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