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Car Forum / Honda Cars / November 2006Civis Si sedan
BTW, saw this on the dealer's floor yesterday, a coppery red color, I guess Habanero Red, and it looks seriously hot! They had every option on it it could carry, then a market adjustment of $5k, for a total of about $28k. Didn't see a nitro button, tho ... http://automobiles.honda.com/models/exterior_colors.asp?ModelName=Civic+Si+Sedan Do these engines really hold up if you rev them past 6k on a regular basis, cuz that's where the power is, right? Sigh. Just nowhere to drive such things anymore in Los Angeles. TMC. J. > BTW, saw this on the dealer's floor yesterday, a coppery red color, I > guess Habanero Red, and it looks seriously hot! They had every option [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Do these engines really hold up if you rev them past 6k on a regular > basis, cuz that's where the power is, right? yes. if anything, they run better - you burn all the crud out. > Sigh. Just nowhere to drive such things anymore in Los Angeles. TMC. dunno about that dude... last couple of times i've been on the ventura freeway late at night, it's been a regular "fast & furious" race track. if you're serious about a "fun" vehicle, go for older stuff - obdI or even obd0. [obdII and later computers store your usage history, which could be a problem. if you know what i mean.] do the math. $28k for a new civic vs. $5k for an older civic. [less if you go for the 88-91's.] that leaves you $23k for upgrades. if you stick to mechanicals that actually work [rather than rice crap] you'd have a hard time spending it all and the vehicle will go like a freakin' rocket. like this one: http://www.theoldone.com/articles/Larryscivic/Larrys_Civic.htm >> BTW, saw this on the dealer's floor yesterday, a coppery red color, I >> guess Habanero Red, and it looks seriously hot! They had every option [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > all and the vehicle will go like a freakin' rocket. like this one: > http://www.theoldone.com/articles/Larryscivic/Larrys_Civic.htm Dunno about that. Quite a build-up, but had to be costly. There's at least $25k worth of photo documentation on that puppy... >> BTW, saw this on the dealer's floor yesterday, a coppery red color, I >> guess Habanero Red, and it looks seriously hot! They had every [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > yes. if anything, they run better - you burn all the crud out. Wear the rings out too. I'm in that situation right now. Constant 4K rpm usage has toasted the rings, which is why my oil consumption is so high (1600mi/qt at 278,000 miles). Don't care how well an engine is made, high piston speeds quickly erode rings. >> Sigh. Just nowhere to drive such things anymore in Los Angeles. >> TMC. > > dunno about that dude... last couple of times i've been on the > ventura freeway late at night, it's been a regular "fast & furious" > race track. Well sure, late at night. Just don't try the 405 at 4:00pm on a weekday...  SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ "TeGGeR����������������������" wrote: >>> BTW, saw this on the dealer's floor yesterday, a coppery red color, I >>> guess Habanero Red, and it looks seriously hot! They had every [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Don't care how well an engine is made, high piston speeds quickly erode > rings. "quickly"??? dude, drive a ford for a couple of years, then get back to loving your "quickly eroded" b-series. ;) >>> Sigh. Just nowhere to drive such things anymore in Los Angeles. >>> TMC. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Well sure, late at night. Just don't try the 405 at 4:00pm on a > weekday... > Wear the rings out too. I'm in that situation right now. > Constant 4K rpm > usage has toasted the rings, which is why my oil > consumption is so high > (1600mi/qt at 278,000 miles). Not your 91 Integra? Say it ain't so! You ever solve that problem that led you to replace the fuel injectors, etc.? "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in news:vI58h.995 $ql2.346@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net: >> Wear the rings out too. I'm in that situation right now. >> Constant 4K rpm [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Not your 91 Integra? Say it ain't so! T'is! Same car! Got a smog check next spring, too. Original cat. Will I pass? Stay tuned! > You ever solve that problem that led you to replace the fuel > injectors, etc.? Nope. Same vibration. It gets lots worse in cold weather, almost disappears in hot weather. I've replaced both lower mounts. The front one was a piece of cake, the rear one was a good two hours labor, and required the engine to be lifted up three inches. I have a new theory... The RIGHT upper mount is twisted to the rear.The LEFT upper mount is twisted to the front. The right upper mount contacts the frame on hard acceleration. I suspect the engine/transaxle assembly is torqued clockwise (when viewed from above) on account of the differential being on the right, thus pulling the works to the rear on that side and distorting the mounts. My mechanic still thinks it's not the mounts, but otherwise has no idea what's going on. Cars with mileages over 200K are fairly rare (and over 250K almost non-existent), so most mechanics are in uncharted territory when troubleshooting them. The upper mounts are much beefier than the lower ones, so I suspect they carry most of the load. It will cost me about $300Cdn to replace both uppers, so I'm going to live with the annoyance for a while longer. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >>> Wear the rings out too. I'm in that situation right now. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Original cat. Will I > pass? Stay tuned! for brevity, snipped good info Do continue to keep the newsgroup informed. Your 91 Integra is the benchmark for my 91 Civic! IOW, I want to know when I need to start getting serious about buying another car. Like I brag all the time to friends, though, I am not giving up a car that continues to give me 40 mpg even in winter. 'Course my fix for the rust around the wheel wells is getting to be an eyesore, and I might cave to vanity in a couple of years. "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in news:rU68h.983$sf5.756 @newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net: >> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >>>> Wear the rings out too. I'm in that situation right now. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > is the benchmark for my 91 Civic! IOW, I want to know when I > need to start getting serious about buying another car. An older car is a hobby. Can be *lots* of work. It can also get expensive (but not nearly as expensive as a new car!) > Like I brag all the time to friends, though, I am not giving > up a car that continues to give me 40 mpg even in winter. I get 30mpg. No more. > 'Course my fix for the rust around the wheel wells is > getting to be an eyesore, and I might cave to vanity in a > couple of years. Rust. I do believe that's the defining factor here. My previous car, a 1982 Toyota Corolla, delineated its own life-limits in rust. Had it not got crusty, I'd probably still have it. As it was, I refused to pour more money into the beast, not knowing how long the body would hold out. When is the right time to buy a different car? When you lose confidence in your current one. It's purely a personal and emotional decision. Mine has no rust. Years of elbow grease (and wonderfully messy eastern- Canadian anti-rust treatments) have seen to that. Lack of rust makes it a bit difficult to decide whether or not to sell or scrap an old, worn car. I just priced some engine work. A very reputable place near me can rebuild my original engine for $2800Cdn. A good used motor is $900. A brand-new short-block from Honda is $4000. I have no intention of getting rid of my car, so in a few years I'll have to do something one way or another. I took some pics just now (yes that's snow you see). Car hasn't been washed in at least two months, so it's pretty dirty. See here: http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/teg_nov-06/ SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >>> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > An older car is a hobby. It's kept me out of trouble. :-) > Can be *lots* of work. > > It can also get expensive (but not nearly as expensive as > a new car!) You bet! > Rust. I do believe that's the defining factor here. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > your current one. It's purely a personal and emotional > decision. One thing I regret is that I will likely not roll the dice on a used car, which means the new Honda or Toyota (one or the other, most likely) I buy inevitably will have all the latest electronic controls. I hope it's not overwhelming. I /like/ being able to take off the distributor; check the timing; set valve lash; etc. Of course, there may be maintenance items equivalent to this, but requiring a lot less backbreaking labor. I wonder how the bushings last on these newer Hondas. Being frugal, perhaps the low end Hondas and Toyota will still have plenty of DIY mechanical/electrical stuff. > Mine has no rust. Years of elbow grease (and wonderfully > messy eastern- > Canadian anti-rust treatments) have seen to that. Lack of > rust makes it a > bit difficult to decide whether or not to sell or scrap an > old, worn car. Right, from your photos, you got me there! > I just priced some engine work. A very reputable place > near me can rebuild [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > getting rid of my > car, so in a few years I'll have to do > something one way or another. I'd sure like to see more reports here of folks swapping engines. Not to beef up the car but just to keep using a perfectly good body. I think it imprudent for my Honda, but we'll see. > I took some pics just now (yes that's snow you see). Car > hasn't been washed > in at least two months, so it's pretty dirty. See here: > http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/teg_nov-06/ Take 'er to 300k (miles)! "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in news:wA88h.970 $tM1.730@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net: > One thing I regret is that I will likely not roll the dice > on a used car, which means the new Honda or Toyota (one or [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > less backbreaking labor. I wonder how the bushings last on > these newer Hondas. Part of my reasons for keeping the old '91 is the horrendous complexity of new cars. In some ways they're easier to take care of: Timing chains instead of belts; no distributors; and in the case of Toyotas, cam lobes that ride directly on the valve tops and require no attention for a decade provided you change your oil. In some ways they're scary: Dual 4-wire oxygen sensors; catalytic converters operating at the peak of their capabilities; airbags everywhere (which require to be inspected and replaced every ten years)... > Being frugal, perhaps the low end Hondas and Toyota will > still have plenty of DIY mechanical/electrical stuff. Don't count on it. There isn't much you can do with any of the new rides. I know. We have a '99 Tercel, as low end as you can get. Beyond very basic maintenance, there isn't a lot you can do. > Take 'er to 300k (miles)! She'll make it no prob. I'm suspecting I'll need a replacement cat though. See earlier emissions results: http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/91_integra_emissions.html The last two have varied wildly at idle, which, according to my contacts, suggests a failing cat. I had originally thought it had to do with test equipment variability, but it looks more like it has to do with reduced cat efficiency. SignatureTeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ TeGGeR wrote: > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in news:rU68h.983$sf5.756 > @newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net: [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > I just priced some engine work. A very reputable place near me can rebuild > my original engine for $2800Cdn. A good used motor is $900. think very carefully about this one. i've done some failure analysis in the past, and the very tiniest amount of grit left over from cylinder honing can seriously affect ring wear and consequently oil consumption. [and cylinder head work - you had that done recently didn't you?] if you cut the engine up and put it under the microscope, you can see it. you have to be scrupulously clean to minimize this grit and go to great lengths to remove it. hardly anyone bothers. a shop may be reputable, but bear in mind, once rebuilt, most people don't keep the car long enough to see long term testing of their work. if it were my car, and i had the luxury of time on my side, i'd seriously consider the good used engine. only if the machine shop were truly anal would i consider the rebuilt motor as an option for a car i considered a "keeper". > A brand-new > short-block from Honda is $4000. I have no intention of getting rid of my [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > in at least two months, so it's pretty dirty. See here: > http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/teg_nov-06/ for a vehicle driven in those conditions, that's mighty purty! TeGGeR wrote: > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in news:vI58h.995 > $ql2.346@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Nope. Same vibration. It gets lots worse in cold weather, almost > disappears in hot weather. did you get anywhere with the ignition leads? mine have been running great since i switched to coiled core leads. i have both these: http://ngk.com/more_info.asp?AAIA=1168286&pid=17331 http://magnecor.com/magnecor1/files/electrosports-80.pdf i generally think oem quality is great, but there's no doubt that in this instance, my sub-3k mile oem plug leads were acting up, especially in colder damper weather. both these are better quality than oem. > I've replaced both lower mounts. The front > one was a piece of cake, the rear one was a good two hours labor, and [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > carry most of the load. It will cost me about $300Cdn to replace both > uppers, so I'm going to live with the annoyance for a while longer. > TeGGeR wrote: >> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in news:vI58h.995 [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > i generally think oem quality is great, but there's no doubt that in > this instance, my sub-3k mile oops, that's 30k, not 3k! > oem plug leads were acting up, especially > in colder damper weather. both these are better quality than oem. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >> they carry most of the load. It will cost me about $300Cdn to replace >> both uppers, so I'm going to live with the annoyance for a while longer. > TeGGeR wrote: >> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in news:vI58h.995 >> $ql2.346@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net: >>> You ever solve that problem that led you to replace the fuel >>> injectors, etc.? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > did you get anywhere with the ignition leads? Replaced with new OEM. No change. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >Wear the rings out too. I'm in that situation right now. Constant 4K rpm >usage has toasted the rings, which is why my oil consumption is so high >(1600mi/qt at 278,000 miles). > >Don't care how well an engine is made, high piston speeds quickly erode >rings. When I had an Alfa, standard freeway driving was 4,000 RPM. Technically it was the model for early Honda engines, aluminum block and head, but with iron liners. Well, not entirely the model, as the Alfa drank oil on spec, loose piston rings. Couldn't get that past later smog rules. Is yours an aluminum block with no liners, like current Hondas, even the S2000? Those are the ones I wonder about. J. > On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 22:48:32 +0000 (UTC), "TeGGeR�" > <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > J. hondas have iron liners [or carbon composites for the exotics]. afaik, the only vehicles to try using all alloy blocks were porsche with their 928 v8's. didn't work very well. > hondas have iron liners [or carbon composites for the exotics]. afaik, > the only vehicles to try using all alloy blocks were porsche with their > 928 v8's. didn't work very well. I believe the Chevrolet Vega engines were not sleeved, only nitrided somehow. A friend had overheated a Vega when a hose failed and it wouldn't run after that; the coolant level pumped when he cranked the engine. We saw why when we pulled the head - the cylinders were cast as mesas in the block and sat in a pool of coolant (assuming there was enough coolant). When the coolant level dropped the cylinders softened at the top and no longer pushed against the head gasket. A replacement engine from a wrecking yard got him going again. I think that puts the Vega engine in the "didn't work very well" category. MIke >> hondas have iron liners [or carbon composites for the exotics]. >> afaik, the only vehicles to try using all alloy blocks were porsche >> with their 928 v8's. didn't work very well. > > I believe the Chevrolet Vega engines were not sleeved, only nitrided > somehow. Not nitrided, but dotted with silicon nodules. Those nodules didn't nodulate quite as well as GM had expected, so the Vega's all-aluminum marvel went into the dustbin of history, as somebody famous once put it. > A friend had overheated a Vega when a hose failed and it > wouldn't run after that; the coolant level pumped when he cranked the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > engine from a wrecking yard got him going again. I think that puts the > Vega engine in the "didn't work very well" category. Which is why it was eventually replaced by the '62 Nova's "Iron Duke" cast-iron 4. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >Those nodules didn't nodulate quite as well as GM had expected, so the >Vega's all-aluminum marvel went into the dustbin of history, as somebody >famous once put it. I believe Rover had fielded aluminum-block engines a few years earlier - and had also failed. Don't know if they had liners, I guess not. Not sure how long Alfa was shipping aluminum blocks with iron liners, starting around 1958, I think. J. >>Those nodules didn't nodulate quite as well as GM had expected, so the >>Vega's all-aluminum marvel went into the dustbin of history, as >>somebody famous once put it. > > I believe Rover had fielded aluminum-block engines a few years earlier > - and had also failed. Not to my knowledge. The only aluminum Rover engine up to the Vega's time was the 3500 V8. That one was Buick's old 215, which had iron liners. > Don't know if they had liners, I guess not. > Not sure how long Alfa was shipping aluminum blocks with iron liners, > starting around 1958, I think. Lots of makers used aluminum blocks with iron liners. Very few tried bare aluminum. I do believe Porsche was one of those, with their 928 engine. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ >hondas have iron liners [or carbon composites for the exotics]. afaik, >the only vehicles to try using all alloy blocks were porsche with their >928 v8's. didn't work very well. Bzzt, wrong. My 87 Accord had iron liners, but that design ended in the early 1990's. There's some magic process they do that chemically forms a silicon-composite coating on the cylinder walls, and I think the S2000 uses a different alloy that forms a better coating, but unless I've misunderstood for a long time, the iron liners are long gone, along with carbuerators and mechanical distributors. Next to go: camshafts. J. >> hondas have iron liners [or carbon composites for the exotics]. afaik, >> the only vehicles to try using all alloy blocks were porsche with their [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > 1990's. There's some magic process they do that chemically forms a > silicon-composite coating on the cylinder walls, the silicon relief etching is what was tried on the porsche. it worked fine in the lab, but was not good in practice. the honda solution is to cast a thin iron liner into the block. it's only a few mm. go to a junk yard and check out the motors that have had their heads pulled. the outside of the wet liners are indeed alloy from the casting, but scrape the top face, and you'll see the change in color between the two materials - the interior is most definitely iron. > and I think the S2000 > uses a different alloy that forms a better coating, it's a carbon matrix liner, and it too is cast into the alloy block. > but unless I've > misunderstood for a long time, the iron liners are long gone, iron liners are very much alive. there's nothing to touch iron for wear and heat transfer at that price point. > along > with carbuerators and mechanical distributors. Next to go: camshafts. camshafts will be with us for a while longer. there's plenty of other actuation devices which theoretically could offer significant advantages, but it's hard to replicate the "gradual opening" effect of a cam driven valve - and that has substantial gas flow benefit - without spending a good chunk of change. different valve operation would offer the "holy grail" of truly variable valve timing, but let's be realistic, there's no way a manufacturer is going to substitute 100+ year reliability that costs maybe $100 for the whole shooting match in quantity, with something that's going to cost $1,000+ which for most applications, offers no benefit. even F1 doesn't have engines haven't abandoned cams, and if there is a bottomless money pit into which engineering initiative is dropped, it is F1. >> Bzzt, wrong. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >the silicon relief etching is what was tried on the porsche. it worked >fine in the lab, but was not good in practice. I will swear that some car magazine said Honda was using this on their mainline engines at some point around ten years ago. Maybe it came and went. But Googling around ... seems to show you are correct about now. Well hey, maybe I misunderstood whatever back when. Glad to hear it, actually, never did think anyone had the technology to do without it and deliver real realiability. So, well, thanks! J. >>> Bzzt, wrong. >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I will swear that some car magazine said Honda was using this on their > mainline engines at some point around ten years ago. car mags publish crap, with a lot of the import scare stories being "inspired" by detroit in an effort to keep the home fires burning. kinda scary actually. kinda ironic too seeing as nowadays, detroit's falling over itself to source so much of its componentry from china. > Maybe it came > and went. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > actually, never did think anyone had the technology to do without it > and deliver real realiability. there's other solutions out there including hard chrome lined aluminum [used in some types of applications like powered hang gliders iirc], but at the end of the day, it all comes down to durability for the application - and price. right now, iron alloy liners are king and are likely to remain so for the foreseeable future. > So, well, thanks! > > J. > the honda solution is to cast a thin iron liner into the block. Whoa yeah. It's thin indeed, about 1/8". And I thought the Toyota 4A was bad with a quarter-inch around the fire-ring. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ "TeGGeR����������������������" wrote: >> the honda solution is to cast a thin iron liner into the block. > > Whoa yeah. It's thin indeed, about 1/8". And I thought the Toyota 4A was > bad with a quarter-inch around the fire-ring. how thick does it need to be? the biggest load a liner experiences is thermal. aluminum is a better conductor than iron, so thinner is better and let the aluminum do the work. >> On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 22:48:32 +0000 (UTC), "TeGGeR�" >> <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > afaik, the only vehicles to try using all alloy blocks were porsche > with their 928 v8's. didn't work very well. Also Chevy Vega. Remember? Major disaster for GM. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > Is yours an aluminum block with no liners, like current Hondas, even > the S2000? Those are the ones I wonder about. No. Mine has iron cylinders cast into an aluminum jacket. When the head came off for a gasket change a few years ago, you could still see crosshatching in the bores. It's the rings. SignatureTegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > BTW, saw this on the dealer's floor yesterday, a coppery red color, I > guess Habanero Red, and it looks seriously hot! They had every option > on it it could carry, then a market adjustment of $5k, for a total of > about $28k. Didn't see a nitro button, tho ... Greed! $28k is a ridiculous price, but someone will pay it. http://automobiles.honda.com/models/exterior_colors.asp?ModelName=Civic+Si+Sedan > Do these engines really hold up if you rev them past 6k on a regular > basis, cuz that's where the power is, right? > > Sigh. Just nowhere to drive such things anymore in Los Angeles. TMC. > > J. |
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