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Car Forum / Honda Cars / February 2007Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
I rode in a friend's Prius and he showed me that the engine started up before he hit 5 mph even under mild acceleration. I thought the difference between the "full" hybrids like Prius and "mild" hybrids like the Civic was the ability of the former to operate as a pure electric over a modest range of conditions. It would seem that the Prius' all electric performance is very modest indeed. Is this correct? > I rode in a friend's Prius and he showed me that the engine started up > before he hit 5 mph even under mild acceleration. I thought the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Prius' all electric performance is very modest indeed. Is this > correct? I believe that the Prius could theoretically start up and mildly accelerate with the battery powered electric motor alone (assuming it was charged) but there would not be enough horsepower in the electric motor alone to satisfy people (and it might not be safe to accelerate so slowly in high traffic situations). If not accelerating, then the electric motor can sometimes do it alone. >> I rode in a friend's Prius and he showed me that the engine started up >> before he hit 5 mph even under mild acceleration. I thought the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > in high traffic situations). If not accelerating, then the electric motor > can sometimes do it alone. The electric motor has plenty of juice to run the car. There are a LOT of other factors here...was the heat on? Air Conditioning? lights? Also, the US models are set up differently from the models used in the rest of the world...they run on gas more often in North America. This can be changed by hacking the ECU (and voiding the warranty...) Also, was the car fully charged? If not, the engine turn on to run the generator, while the electric motor provides the locomotion. The display will show you what's happening... "Hachiroku wrote >>> I rode in a friend's Prius and he showed me that the engine started up >>> before he hit 5 mph even under mild acceleration. I thought the [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > generator, while the electric motor provides the locomotion. The display > will show you what's happening... I have and drive a Prius. It is just how it is set up. My Prius will start up in electric when the battery is charged enough and accelerate up to maybe 40 or so on electric alone - but it is painstakingly slow. One cannot do this in traffic, thus the need to press down a bit harder and engage the gas engine. I too would very much like for this car to rely on the electric much more than it does now. Tomes > "Hachiroku wrote >>>> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > car to rely on the electric much more than it does now. > Tomes I've heard of Prius people adding another battery pack(in addition to the stock one) and 120VAC charger to get better use on the electric side,and reduce gas usage.Then you can plug it in at night or when you have access to an outlet.  SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net >"Hachiroku wrote >>>> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >the electric much more than it does now. >Tomes Thanks for the thoughtful comments. I am really just curious about the state of the technology. Not really interested in purchasing any current hybrid but I would consider it if the right one existed. Electric performance is not an issue in this regard - like I said, I am just curious. More info on the experience I opened the thread with: The OAT was about 30F/0C. The engine should have been up to temp at this point. Lights were on and there were three people in the car. I don't know the state of the battery but he generally drives like an old man. Also, the car is a new model, about 2 years old with 7000(!) miles on it. He mostly drives it to the train station and back. He indicated that it almost never ran on electric alone and showed me this by gently accelerating from an electric creep. As best I could tell, the schematic showed power coming from the engine the moment his foot hit the gas. >>"Hachiroku wrote >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > accelerating from an electric creep. As best I could tell, the schematic > showed power coming from the engine the moment his foot hit the gas. Hmmm...I drove a 'classic' for about a week (1999...hey, how'd he do that when the 'first' year was 2000?) and got to where I could control the gas engine with my left foot. Sad thing was, I got better economy for my type of driving with my '95 Tercel Automatic! In article <R_8Bh.4611$7s2.2405@trndny07> Trueno@AE86.gts "=?iso-2022-jp?q?Hachiroku_=1B$B%O%A%m%=2F=1B=28B?=" writes: > Hmmm...I drove a 'classic' for about a week (1999...hey, how'd > he do that when the 'first' year was 2000?) and got to where I > could control the gas engine with my left foot. Year number applied in the previous calendar year, maybe? > Sad thing was, I got better economy for my type of driving with > my '95 Tercel Automatic! Quite possible. Driving style is so important. Too many folks think a hybrid doesn't benefit from being driven properly. Not true. It's like any other vehicle, that way. Is the Tercel a small car? The Prius is not. USian Mid-sized, almost. I see Toyota FWDs being advertised, with mpgs horribly lower than the Prius, despite related hybrid tech. (Maybe good for FWDs, though.) Body mass must count for a lot, although of course FWDs have the extra transmission bits to power. SignatureAndrew Stephenson > In article <R_8Bh.4611$7s2.2405@trndny07> > Trueno@AE86.gts [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Is the Tercel a small car? How about Corolla II? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Toyota_corolla_ii.jpg > The Prius is not. USian Mid-sized, > almost. I see Toyota FWDs being advertised, with mpgs horribly > lower than the Prius, despite related hybrid tech. (Maybe good > for FWDs, though.) Body mass must count for a lot, although of > course FWDs have the extra transmission bits to power. > Hmmm...I drove a 'classic' for about a week (1999...hey, how'd he do that > when the 'first' year was 2000?) and got to where I could control the gas > engine with my left foot. The first Prius was available in calendar year 1997 as a 1998 model year (the NHW10 model). The 1998-2000 model year Prius was only available in Japan. Beginning with the 2001 model year (available in 2000 calendar year), the Prius was redesigned and available for sale internationally (the NHW11 model). The 2001-2003 model year Prius is what is usually referred to as the "Classic" Prius. A small handful of the original Japanese Prius were brought out of Japan for some testing, to see what updates were needed for an international release. Was this one that you had tried in 1999? It's best identified as a compact sedan, no rear spoiler, the center display is all in Japanese, and had dash buttons for the display rather than a touch-screen. Oh, yeah, and it's RHD. (The NHW11 added the rear spoiler, a touch-screen, and has a more powerful engine and a more powerful (different design) battery pack, so better fuel economy and acceleration.) To my knowledge, there has always been just the brake pedal and the accelerator pedal... So how were you controlling the gasoline engine with your left foot? >> Hmmm...I drove a 'classic' for about a week (1999...hey, how'd he do that >> when the 'first' year was 2000?) and got to where I could control the gas [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > more powerful (different design) battery pack, so better fuel economy > and acceleration.) It was a dealer 'teaser', that was available for show before actual sale. It was LHD, but this one was at the dealership months before they were actually available for sale here. One side was white, due to an accident. The other side was a huge billboard "PRIUS 60MPG Hiway Mileage Hybrid" > To my knowledge, there has always been just the brake pedal and the > accelerator pedal... So how were you controlling the gasoline engine > with your left foot? Sorry...meant right foot... >> On Feb 15, 9:51 pm, Hachiroku ???? <Tru...@AE86.gts> wrote: >>> Hmmm...I drove a 'classic' for about a week (1999...hey, how'd he do [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Sorry...meant right foot... I'm sorry too. I thought you were implying you could steer with your...... Oh, never mind. mark_ Dear Newsies If you want a high performance, all-electric automobile (which seems to where the thread was going) you might check out: http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1 It is based on the tZero: http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero/ and uses many Lotus parts and basic chassis. There are to Honda or Toyota bits in either that I know of so this is an off-topic post. Elliot Richmond Itinerant astronomy teacher > Dear Newsies > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Elliot Richmond > Itinerant astronomy teacher Yeah, but the original was $134,000 to the first 200 customers, and $80,000 after that! But...va-ROOOOOM!!!! Basically a Lotus Exige with an electric motor. >>> On Feb 15, 9:51 pm, Hachiroku ???? <Tru...@AE86.gts> wrote: >>>> Hmmm...I drove a 'classic' for about a week (1999...hey, how'd he do [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > Oh, never mind. > mark_ Well, I *CAN*, but that's besides the point... >>"Hachiroku wrote >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > tell, the schematic showed power coming from the engine the moment his > foot hit the gas. I am betting that the engine/exhaust system was not warmed up yet. It needs to warm up to get the emissions stuff hot, then it goes into its normal mode. This is another of the ways that it is set up by design. Tomes > "Hachiroku wrote >>>> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > engage the gas engine. I too would very much like for this car to rely on > the electric much more than it does now. Tomes There was a Web site a couple years ago where a guy who is an Electrical Engineer hacked into the ECU via the ODBII connector, changed the mode, and then wrote a program in order to control the ECU from the interior Real Time with a Toshiba Libretto. > I rode in a friend's Prius and he showed me that the engine started up > before he hit 5 mph even under mild acceleration. I thought the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Prius' all electric performance is very modest indeed. Is this > correct? You can find more expertise at alt.autos.toyota.prius. They will also want to know what year, since there are significant differences between the Classic (2001-2003) and the second generation (2004+). Ours are both Classics (2002), so I'll go from that perspective. As the others indicate, there are a lot of variables. Cold weather makes it much more prone to run the engine in order to produce heat, which passengers seem to enjoy :-) The state of hybrid battery charge will affect it, too, including the entirely counter-intuitive behavior of restarting the engine periodically to bleed off extra charge if the state of charge is high. Cold weather, particularly as the temperature drops below freezing, will take the edge off fuel efficiency. I'm barely managing 30 mpg with mainly 3 mile trips in subfreezing weather right now, but when the weather warms up it will go back into the mid-40s. OTOH, what other car would provide 30 mpg under those conditions? Mostly, the hybrid system knows what to do. There have been reports of misbehavior - especially shuddering when the engine shuts down - that have been corrected by disconnecting the 12 volt "aux" battery for a few minutes. Maybe the car should have ctrl-alt-del keys ;-) Mike >> I rode in a friend's Prius and he showed me that the engine started up >> before he hit 5 mph even under mild acceleration. I thought the [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >it will go back into the mid-40s. OTOH, what other car would provide 30 mpg >under those conditions? In cold weather get 30mpg ? uh, the corolla will easily do that. >Mostly, the hybrid system knows what to do. There have been reports of >misbehavior - especially shuddering when the engine shuts down - that have >been corrected by disconnecting the 12 volt "aux" battery for a few minutes. >Maybe the car should have ctrl-alt-del keys ;-) > >Mike In alt.autos.toyota RT <noyabusiness@yahoo.com> wrote: > In cold weather get 30mpg ? uh, the corolla will easily do that. A driver is a total weenie if he or she cannot get > 50 MPG from a Prius, even in cold weather. I've been getting high 50s lately, and am looking forward to summer-mix gasoline (non oxygenated) with 5% higher energy content so I can cross 60 MPG per fill-up. > A driver is a total weenie if he or she cannot get > 50 MPG > from a Prius, even in cold weather. Then that makes me a weenie. <g> Likewise the other Prius owners who use my local T dealer/maintainer, who reports 56mphUK is what most drivers get, long term. (That'd be about 44.8mpgUS.) Share your secret, Bill? :-) SignatureAndrew Stephenson In alt.autos.toyota Andrew Stephenson <ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> A driver is a total weenie if he or she cannot get > 50 MPG >> from a Prius, even in cold weather. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Share your secret, Bill? :-) I am not afraid to drive slowly! Of course the "Old Fart in Training" license plate cover helps. Driving 75-80 mph from San Jose to Los Angeles, my wife got about what you UK drivers get. Short trips are far worse for Prius mileage than excessive speeds. > In alt.autos.toyota Andrew Stephenson <ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I am not afraid to drive slowly! > Of course the "Old Fart in Training" license plate cover helps. :-) > Driving 75-80 mph from San Jose to Los Angeles, my wife got about > what you UK drivers get. Short trips are far worse for Prius mileage > than excessive speeds. That's encouraging (for future times when/if I do similar trips) but puzzling too. Last June, when the weather here was warm and dry, I drove about 400 miles in one day over mostly level ground and at 50/60-ish speeds (as fast as it was safe+legal+feasible), getting around that 56mpgUK -- which, incidentally, I learn I've been converting to mpgUS wrongly, making it more like 46.8mpgUS. This figure proved so reliable that, come late Sunday as I drove across the Yorkshire Dales, through village after village that'd never heard of selling petrol on weekends, I could calculate the point where my tank would run dry with some confidence; and that journey was a wild series of undulations and twists going on for some 50 miles, in gathering gloom, with dry stone walls flashing past because I did NOT want to be caught out there come the dark (on account of the famous Yorkshire werewolves, you understand). SignatureAndrew Stephenson In alt.autos.toyota Andrew Stephenson <ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote: > That's encouraging (for future times when/if I do similar trips) > but puzzling too. Last June, when the weather here was warm and > dry, I drove about 400 miles in one day over mostly level ground > and at 50/60-ish speeds (as fast as it was safe+legal+feasible), > getting around that 56mpgUK -- which, incidentally, I learn I've > been converting to mpgUS wrongly, making it more like 46.8mpgUS. What size tyres do you have mounted on that Prius, and what brand? And do they really still sell gasoline in the U.K. by the imperial gallon and not by the liter, or I suppose you would spell it litre or some modern French- or Continental-based measurement of volume? > In alt.autos.toyota Andrew Stephenson <ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > gallon and not by the liter, or I suppose you would spell it litre > or some modern French- or Continental-based measurement of volume? A multipart question? Good. Ans: Prius OEM (see other thread on Prius tyres); Goodyear?; no; doesn't everyone?; historically yes. FWIW, "litres/100Km" sounds daft. Many UKians still say "mpg". SignatureAndrew Stephenson > In alt.autos.toyota Andrew Stephenson <a...@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote: > What size tyres do you have mounted on that Prius, and what brand? > And do they really still sell gasoline in the U.K. by the imperial > gallon and not by the liter, or I suppose you would spell it litre > or some modern French- or Continental-based measurement of volume? 2004-2007 UK tire Bridgestone Turanza ER30 195/55R16 87V (Note the different size than the US!) UK and Canada uses MPG using imperial gallons. Canada and most everywhere else use l/100km. Japan still uses km/l. In alt.autos.toyota mrv@kluge.net <mrv@kluge.net> wrote: > 2004-2007 UK tire > Bridgestone Turanza ER30 > 195/55R16 > 87V That would go partway to explaining why a US Prius gets better mileage than a UK Prius. Although I can't find the exact size, Turanza have significantly higher rolling resistance than Goodyear Integrity tires. Also the 195 versus 185 width increases aerodynamic drag. http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/sr/SR286Rolling_Resistance_Data.pdf > In alt.autos.toyota mrv@kluge.net <mrv@kluge.net> wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Turanza have significantly higher rolling resistance than > Goodyear Integrity tires. [...] For the sake of the experimental data, I have just been outside to check my 2005 UK Prius: out in the dark dank chill with just my feeble torch for company, as winds moaned and owls hooted... Bridgestone Turanza. Couldn't make out the associated numbers. But the tyres fit fine. :-) I hope you lot appreciate that this effort was above and beyond the call of any duty. Where do I apply for my medals? BTW, why don't they fit Integras in this market? Mine was made in *.jp, so they can't be any harder to find. Conflicting road demands and/or national car type certification conditions? SignatureAndrew Stephenson In alt.autos.toyota Andrew Stephenson <ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> > 2004-2007 UK tire >> > Bridgestone Turanza ER30 >> > 195/55R16 > > Bridgestone Turanza. Couldn't make out the associated numbers. > But the tyres fit fine. :-) Thanks! > I hope you lot appreciate that this effort was above and beyond > the call of any duty. Where do I apply for my medals? We will award you the Parliamentary medal of freedom (all rubber). > BTW, why don't they fit Integras in this market? Mine was made > in *.jp, so they can't be any harder to find. Conflicting road > demands and/or national car type certification conditions? The Turanza has better resistance to hydroplaning and longer tread life. Here are the Consumer Reports ratings of it: Braking - good Cornering - poor Emergency handling - good With ABS - good Hydroplaning - good Snow traction - poor Ice braking - poor Steering feel - good Impact - fair Noise - fair Rolling resistance - poor Tread wear - very good > In alt.autos.toyota Andrew Stephenson > <ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > We will award you the Parliamentary medal of freedom (all > rubber). Okay, so long as it doesn't bounce. (OT: OTOH, if Parliament is involved, some kind of dodginess seems likely.) > > BTW, why don't they fit Integras in this market? Mine was made > > in *.jp, so they can't be any harder to find. Conflicting road [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > [...] Hmm, yes. It does rain occasionally in the UK, more than in the sunny parts of *.ca.us at least. And snow has been short lately. Ta. I shall luxuriate in that low wear and loss of hydroplaning, while maintaining the proper tyre pressures. SignatureAndrew Stephenson "Andrew Stephenson" wrote... >> > 2004-2007 UK tire >> > Bridgestone Turanza ER30 [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > in *.jp, so they can't be any harder to find. Conflicting road > demands and/or national car type certification conditions? I was just out there too putting some more air into the Prius' tires (in response to a RayO post that spurred me on), and saw that the Integras were "Made in Japan", stamped right on the tire sidewall. If the car came from Japan (which I believe they all do), they made a conscious choice to fit yours with the Bridgestones instead of the Goodyears. Tomes > Driving 75-80 mph from San Jose to Los Angeles, my wife got about > what you UK drivers get. Short trips are far worse for Prius mileage > than excessive speeds. It's stop and go driving where the hybrid technology gains, there's little or no gain with steady high speed driving. Sounds like it's not working properly. >> Driving 75-80 mph from San Jose to Los Angeles, my wife got about >> what you UK drivers get. Short trips are far worse for Prius mileage >> than excessive speeds. > It's stop and go driving where the hybrid technology gains, there's > little or no gain with steady high speed driving. > Sounds like it's not working properly. ----- Barometric pressure and fuel quality can make either city or highway fuel efficiency flip flop. On level ground doing 101 miles an hour my digital display says real time fuel economy above 35 but less than 45 mpg. I hesitate to believe a traditional non-hybrid would even come close to that fuel economy range at that speed. So, when someone tells their husband they only saw such and such fuel efficiency you can sure as hell bet they drove much faster than what they said they did, or their range of speed was more like an up and down 60 to 80. Can't place blame on the car. mark_ ----- > > Driving 75-80 mph from San Jose to Los Angeles, my wife got about > > what you UK drivers get. Short trips are far worse for Prius mileage > > than excessive speeds. > It's stop and go driving where the hybrid technology gains, there's > little or no gain with steady high speed driving. > Sounds like it's not working properly. I read Bill's remarks as meaning "really short trips", like those which don't warm up the engine properly and give the mpg time for "recovery". SignatureAndrew Stephenson >> > Driving 75-80 mph from San Jose to Los Angeles, my wife got about >> > what you UK drivers get. Short trips are far worse for Prius mileage [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > which don't warm up the engine properly and give the mpg time for > "recovery". I read it the same way. The first few miles are always killer miles. Tomes >> Driving 75-80 mph from San Jose to Los Angeles, my wife got about >> what you UK drivers get. Short trips are far worse for Prius mileage >> than excessive speeds. >It's stop and go driving where the hybrid technology gains, there's >little or no gain with steady high speed driving. >Sounds like it's not working properly. The gain in highway efficiency is in the ability to use a lower output engine due to the availability of supplemental power from the battery. When operating at cruising speed, the engine will be running at a higher % power level which is more efficient. In this mode, the electrical drive line saves fuel by merely being there if you need it. > In alt.autos.toyota RT <noyabusiness@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> In cold weather get 30mpg ? uh, the corolla will easily do that. > > A driver is a total weenie if he or she cannot get > 50 MPG > from a Prius, even in cold weather. Short trips are the big killer (same as with conventional power trains). Cold weather means the warm-up time is extended, and short trips mean the driving is mainly in warm-up mode. The rule of thumb is that a cold engine will burn about twice the fuel of a warm one, and the Prius follows that pretty closely. Mike >> In cold weather get 30mpg ? uh, the corolla will easily do that. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > summer-mix gasoline (non oxygenated) with 5% higher energy content > so I can cross 60 MPG per fill-up. We are weenies too. We get 44-49 depending on the trip type here in west central NJ. I also look forward to seeing what it will do in the summer months. Tomes >>Cold weather, particularly as the temperature drops below freezing, will >>take the edge off fuel efficiency. I'm barely managing 30 mpg with mainly [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > In cold weather get 30mpg ? uh, the corolla will easily do that. Not in three mile trips from a cold start on snowy streets, seldom exceeding 28 mph and sometimes with chains, I bet. The weather has cleared and I'm into the 40s again (three mile trips and all). Mike > I rode in a friend's Prius and he showed me that the engine started up > before he hit 5 mph even under mild acceleration. I thought the > difference between the "full" hybrids like Prius and "mild" hybrids > like the Civic was the ability of the former to operate as a pure > electric over a modest range of conditions. The point where the petrol engine fires up depends on a mixture of road speed and load being imposed. "Racing starts" are sure to get it going at low speeds, in the Mk2 UK "T4" at least. If just moving away gently from traffic lights (not a common thing in the US has been my impression <g>), here in the UK I tend to hit 10mph or so before the petrol engine joins the party. > It would seem that the Prius' all electric performance is very > modest indeed. Is this correct? Google for recent (Jan 2007) posts by me under the Subject 'More on Prius "EV" mode'. Being all-electric is not the point of the Prius. Being efficient in its use of fuel is. Huge difference. SignatureAndrew Stephenson > I rode in a friend's Prius and he showed me that the engine started up > before he hit 5 mph even under mild acceleration. I thought the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Prius' all electric performance is very modest indeed. Is this > correct? --- Incorrect. The earlier hybrid Civics were mild hybrids meaning the electric motor could only assist the gasoline engine but could not perform independently. Today's hybrid Civics are now *full* hybrids. In alt.autos.toyota Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote: > I rode in a friend's Prius and he showed me that the engine started up > before he hit 5 mph even under mild acceleration. I thought the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Prius' all electric performance is very modest indeed. Is this > correct? Yes, except Honda update as another poster noted. An after-market switch is available to make the current Prius operate entirely on electric motors, like a Euro model. After Andrew's test I thought it would not be worthwhile, but I'm having second thoughts. Steven Scharf (SMS) posted this URL describing how: http://www.calcars.org/prius-evbutton-install.pdf > An after-market switch is available to make the current Prius operate > entirely on electric motors, like a Euro model. After Andrew's test > I thought it would not be worthwhile, but I'm having second thoughts. > Steven Scharf (SMS) posted this URL describing how: > > http://www.calcars.org/prius-evbutton-install.pdf ISTR more perspectives on this can be had by browsing around the website priuschat.com -- mostly by folks who wanted to do it and are mentioning odd details. In a UK Euro-Prius, the "EV" button occupies the right-hand position of two switch holes to the left of the steering column. If similar spaces exist in USian models that would seem a good place to put the control. OTOH, a couple of postings mentioned re-using controls on the steering wheel. SignatureAndrew Stephenson A good example of all electric performance that goes well beyond *very modest* is when a Prius is *instructed* to back up an incline such as a steep driveway. Mine has yet to revert back to engine power when the accelerator is *pedal to the metal*. > In alt.autos.toyota Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > http://www.calcars.org/prius-evbutton-install.pdf I just got a prius and am a bit disappointed that it doesn't spend more time in electric only mode. My question is for those who have modified the car to spend more time in electric mode: did you get better mileage? -thanks -ralph > In alt.autos.toyota Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > http://www.calcars.org/prius-evbutton-install.pdf >I just got a prius and am a bit disappointed that it doesn't spend more >time [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > -ralph The hybrid controller for the Prius is designed to keep the battery between 45% and 75% charged to prolong the life of the battery, so a modification that lets the battery get below 45% charge may shorten the battery pack's life. Adding additional batteries would theoretically allow the vehicle to spend more time in electric mode but then the engine would have to spend more time running to re-charge the battery. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >> In alt.autos.toyota Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote: >> > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> >> http://www.calcars.org/prius-evbutton-install.pdf >>I just got a prius and am a bit disappointed that it doesn't spend more >>time [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > more time in electric mode but then the engine would have to spend more > time running to re-charge the battery. Unless the excess of the engine and regenerative braking were underutilized to begin with. >>>I just got a prius and am a bit disappointed that it doesn't spend more >>>time [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Unless the excess of the engine and regenerative braking were > underutilized to begin with. It is my unscientific belief that I regenerate more than I use, based upon my observation that I am in the green a lot and hardly ever go below half of the blue. Thus, I would like to use the electric moreso that it does by default. Doing it (controlling it) manually, however, would open up the possibility of hurting the battery on both ends inadvertently - by over and under charging. What I would like is the ability to tweak it within limits. (Adjust it to be a bit more on the electric side.) Tomes >>>>I just got a prius and am a bit disappointed that it doesn't spend more >>>>time [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >be a bit more on the electric side.) >Tomes You Prius drivers are almost as nuts as me! I run a GPS in my Corolla Wagon. The GPS is connected to my laptop computer and will take voice commands such as 'Where the hell am I'.... Now just think how dangerous I'd be in a Prius!!! SignatureScott in Florida >>>>I just got a prius and am a bit disappointed that it doesn't spend more >>>>time [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > be a bit more on the electric side.) > Tomes You're redesigned Prius actually (according to what I've read and heard) does go further and faster in all electric mode under similar conditions than my '03 Prius. As far as installing another battery pack, if it were my project I would make it so the second battery pack was for *overflow* only and not to be charged simultaneously or better put, not a priority. For the past two very cold weeks (mornings 5 degrees and daytime not much more than 20 degrees) I've been driving with the speedometer set for kilometers instead of miles. My fuel efficiency *seems* to have improved and I can only surmise it's because I can only relate to designated fixed speeds so I tend to accelerate faster than normal. In the past when I'm on the highway I noticed 62 mph seems to be the sweet spot. It just so happens to be 100 kilometers per hour. And the double nickel 55 is the double infinity 88 but upright instead. Hey! Gotta keep amused. >>>>>I just got a prius and am a bit disappointed that it doesn't spend >>>>>more time [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > was for *overflow* only and not to be charged simultaneously or better > put, not a priority. How about charged from 120VAC line? When you get home or where an outlet is available. Then you use cheaper,more efficiently generated mains power for charging,not expensive gasoline. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net >>>>>>I just got a prius and am a bit disappointed that it doesn't spend >>>>>>more time [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > Then you use cheaper,more efficiently generated mains power for > charging,not expensive gasoline. All this stuff is technically feasible. The question is whether it is commercially feasible, that is, whether consumers are willing to pay $2000 to $4000 for the additional battery packs, chargers, etc. and give up trunk space. My guess is that people would probably give up trunk space but would be a little more reluctant to part with the additional money since the payback period may be longer than they intend to keep the vehicle. The break-even point in terms of fuel costs is somewhere between 3 and 7 years, depending on the cost of fuel, driving conditions, etc. Adding an additional $2k to $4k may push the break-even point out further than most people would keep the car. While there are plenty of people who keep their car for 10 or 20 years, even if all of them purchased the additional battery capacity, the sales numbers may still not justify an automaker to put it into production. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) > How about charged from 120VAC line? > When you get home or where an outlet is available. > Then you use cheaper,more efficiently generated mains power for > charging,not expensive gasoline. The exact numbers are not to hand but, in general, the efficiency of charging from a wall socket is not as good as people generally think. It may be $cheaper to the householder than what is put in in fuel tank; but that's a red herring in the efficiency puzzle. Consider these stages when charging: * burn fuel at the power station and convert to electricity (hard to compute the efficiencies if the energy source is, say, hydro or solar or one of those, so skip them for now); * convey the electricity to wall socket and charger unit (if long journey across country, losses not negligible); * convert electricity to form suitable for battery (low volt DC), then convert to chemical energy, then back to electricity (huge losses overall). Compare this with the clever juggling the full hybrid setup does. Often the battery stays idle, as engine drives generator and that drives electric motor. If it does involve the battery, we do not have to pay for transmission losses. The higher-than-usual Prius petrol engine efficiency... hmm, I'd be guessing irresponsibly if I estimated how it matches up to the power station and would like to know more. Just a thought, right? SignatureAndrew Stephenson >> How about charged from 120VAC line? >> When you get home or where an outlet is available. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Just a thought, right? I suspect that electric generation is more efficient any from 120VAC source than any hybrid auto,and also outputs far less pollutants. Transmission losses are present regardless of whether the auto is charged from the line or not.Losses from corona discharge/leakage are far greater,I suspect. and you neglect the conversion losses that the auto has in going from electric to mechanical and back,also the self-discharge the batery pack has. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net > >> How about charged from 120VAC line? > >> When you get home or where an outlet is available. [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > electric to mechanical and back,also the self-discharge the batery pack > has. I considered listing each last tiny cause of inefficiency I could imagine then decided to group them, eg: "* convert electricity to form suitable for battery (low volt DC), then convert to chemical energy, then back to electricity (huge losses overall)". Leaving it to technically minded readers to fill in details seemed good. We need more reliable, clear numbers. SignatureAndrew Stephenson >> >> How about charged from 120VAC line? >> >> When you get home or where an outlet is available. [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > We need more reliable, clear numbers. I agree, we can wave our hands around and make points both ways, but without real comparative numbers (which I for one do not have) it is all just speculation. I'm thinking that I am remembering reading that Toyota is considering the ability to plug it in for the next version. Dunno if that would actually happen tho. Tomes In alt.autos.toyota Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote: > I suspect that electric generation is more efficient any from 120VAC source > than any hybrid auto,and also outputs far less pollutants. Do you own a Segway? They charge from 120V, I believe, and go about 20 miles per charge. You'd get wet in the rain. >>>>>>I just got a prius and am a bit disappointed that it doesn't spend >>>>>>more time [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > charging,not expensive gasoline. > Jim Yanik There's always a possibility the engine will start anyway even if the car is sitting still. If both battery packs are topped off ahead of time then there's no place else to store the electricity. Then the so-called savings from using AC utility power are diminished. By how much I don't know. All I can say is if an extra battery pack allowed me to travel 20 miles I would be hauled off, tarred and feathered by everyone behind me for going so slow. mark_ In alt.autos.toyota "mark_digital©" <976-XXX@comcastnot.com> wrote: > There's always a possibility the engine will start anyway > even if the car is sitting still. I put it in Park to prevent this happening. > If both battery packs are topped off ahead of time then > there's no place else to store the electricity. Then the > so-called savings from using AC utility power are diminished. Right. Too bad the driver can't control charging by gas motor and use of battery power, because the driver could predict this better than the Prius computer. >> There's always a possibility the engine will start anyway >> even if the car is sitting still. > >I put it in Park to prevent this happening. Doing this has not occurred to me - I will try this. I figure that I don't need to have the engine running when I am stopped, even if it thinks that it needs to heat something up. It can wait to do that until I acceletate and co-use that power. >> If both battery packs are topped off ahead of time then >> there's no place else to store the electricity. Then the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >and use of battery power, because the driver could predict this >better than the Prius computer. This is what I am thinking, I just don't know if I am right. Tomes >>>>I just got a prius and am a bit disappointed that it doesn't spend more >>>>time [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > be a bit more on the electric side.) > Tomes In every case I have read about where people have wanted to tweak or adjust how the hybrid system operates, their desire has been to have the vehicle run in pure electric mode for a longer period or distance. I believe that Priuses sold in the UK have an EV button that forces the vehicle to operate in electric mode as long as possible, and that real world fuel economy changes very little by using that mode often. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) Unbelievable! 11 answers and counting and no-one answers my original question! Are you all a bunch of politicians!?!?!?! OK, enough ranting.... Ignoring, increased wear and tear on the batteries or engine, total energy equations involving my old coal powered power plant; and any disturbances in subspace temporal harmonics.... DID THE EV only switch increase peoples mileage? and by how much? thank you -ralph > >>>>I just got a prius and am a bit disappointed that it doesn't spend more > >>>>time [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > in electric mode as long as possible, and that real world fuel economy > changes very little by using that mode often. > Unbelievable! 11 answers and counting and no-one answers my original > question! Are you all a bunch of politicians!?!?!?! [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > DID THE EV only switch increase peoples mileage? and by how much? Did you actually READ all the responses, to your questions and the others you no doubt found when you no doubt Googled on the recent traffic in this NG, and THINK about them? The implication was that it's not worth doing. The car is set to care for itself and the battery. "Mileage" is another word for "efficiency" in this context. Greater efficiency turns on making better overall use of the fuel put into the tank. Read my past posts on my EV experiments (see recent Google). EV is purely there to solve local problems unrelated to efficiency. GOT IT? Thank you. That ends this party political broadcast. SignatureAndrew Stephenson " Did you actually READ all the responses, to your questions and the others you no doubt found when you no doubt Googled on the recent traffic in this NG, and THINK about them?" YES I DID. I have googled, I have read; that's why I included the reference to coal powered electric plants. (Of course, being an old fart, I may have missed "IT".) What I concluded is that in other countries the EV switch is provided by Toyota. Why? Is it because using it will improve gas mileage? I have noticed that the ICV in my Prius runs way more often than I expected, and for more than just recharging the batteries. The cute animation in the LCD display clearly shows that most of the time the ICV is powering the wheels, i.e., providing more power than the electric motor by itself can provide. I am suspicious that this is done so as to improve the Prius's "drivability" in the US; i.e., greater acceleration. Us Americans are accustomed to "tearing" away from the traffic light. While in other countries slower accelerating vehicles are more the norm. I have also noticed that when I take my foot off the gas after a stop the Prius 'creeps' just like a normal automatic transmission ICV only vehicle (something that a manual transmission driver does not need). Again, a feature to improve drivability at the expense of mileage. Given that it is well known that jack-rabbit starts result in significantly lower gas mileage vs a more constant power curve, I would be willing to accept slower starts for more gas mileage. Ergo, my interest in an EV switch. It is also well known that an ICV engine runs much more efficiently at a specific RPM where it generates maximum torque per gallon of gas; so it would make sense to operate the ICV at that speed exclusively for recharging the batteries and never for pulling the vehicle. That is why railroads use diesel-electric engines as opposed to diesel only engines. (Why tractor trailers don't also do this is a mystery to me.) (Yes there is a point where the diesel engine generates electricity as fast as the electric drive wheels consume it and that point varies with each engine based upon its expected use.) So back to my original question: Has anyone installed an EV switch and used it long enough (a year or more) and noticed a marked improvement in gas mileage (10% or more). (Why 10%? Because that show much I improved my Bonneville's mileage simply by using my cruise control as much as possible to accelerate the vehicle and maintain a more constant speed than I myself could do on the highway.) BTW; I am a Physicist by training. I am not interested in "Implications" I want facts! -thank you > > Unbelievable! 11 answers and counting and no-one answers my original > > question! Are you all a bunch of politicians!?!?!?! [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > GOT IT? Thank you. That ends this party political broadcast. > [...] I'm tempted to throw this out to anyone else in the Toyota NG who isn't thoroughly fed up with explaining the same notions over and over. But try this (with my own questions): > "ICV" Don't know that term. "Internal Combustion [something]"? If you mean the petrol [US:gas] engine, you cannot rely on how often the mimic diagram shows it running, as a guide to relative energy o/p of it vs the electric generator/battery/motor side of things. Please read this bit carefully and try to accept it: the Prius is set up to manage its own internal systems. The "EV" button seems to have been a marketing experiment, nothing more. As far as the NG can tell, it is fitted to EU/UK models and not to US ones. My experimental results, which you should have found if you Googled, show its range is functionally pathetic on the open road; it only serves any purpose where you want to discourage (NB, not prevent) the engine from firing up. It has no overall impact on the miles you get out of each gallon (except in a very marginal way, due to interference with the car's control system). It will not help in passing Go, nor will it collect for you $200. The petrol engine and electric motor run separately, or together, according to whatever the car's control system thinks appropriate so don't try to mess with it. If you don't like this arrangement then lift the bonnet [US:hood] and put an axe through that large, shiny box above the electric motor/generator/planetarygear lump. > BTW; I am a Physicist by training. I am not interested in > "Implications" I want facts! Then you are unusual. All the Physicists (and physicists) I have ever known have also been interested in the implications of data, especially those which _appear_ to be anomalous. > -thank you You're welcome. If nobody objects, I'm going off duty now. SignatureAndrew Stephenson R: Polymer Science Engineer here. As a physicist, you might have run across situations where an answer comes through discussion, as well as through a straight answer. The discussion is what occurs here and this is the normal course of events in this Newsgroup. This is not a flaw, it is a feature. Patience Grasshopper. >" Did you actually READ all the responses, to your questions and > the others you no doubt found when you no doubt Googled on the [quoted text clipped - 88 lines] >> >> GOT IT? Thank you. That ends this party political broadcast. "We need more reliable, clear numbers" Andrew Stephenson "I agree, we can wave our hands around and make points both ways, but without real comparative numbers (which I for one do not have) it is all just speculation." Tomes So basically; No one has any experimental facts to support any conclusion, or theory. "Polymer Science Engineer here. As a physicist, you might have run across situations where an answer comes through discussion, as well as through a straight answer. The discussion is what occurs here and this is the normal course of events in this Newsgroup. This is not a flaw, it is a feature." Patience Grasshopper So, this group is just a bunch of old farts shooting the breeze. For the record, the way I learned science; discussion, speculations, conjectures, 'shooting the breeze' are all excellent ways to think about nature, formulate theories and suggest experiments to test such theories. But as mentor of mine once said, physics is different from logic, mathematics, and theology, in that we run experiments. Clearly no one has installed an EV button, and utililized it in a consistent fashion (for example turning it on when you anticipate driving for less than 2 miles) and measured the resulting mileage. Finally, for what its worth to those of you looking for 'hard numbers'; our first tankfull resulted in 44mpg (US gallons, not imperial gallons, of 87 octane regular gasoline), in a mixed highway and city (red lights) commute across gentle small hills of 75 miles per day. I also read that the US EPA will relabel the Prius from 60 city 51 hwy to 44 hwy this coming summer. thank you for your comments -princeton > R: > Polymer Science Engineer here. As a physicist, you might have run across [quoted text clipped - 97 lines] > >> > >> GOT IT? Thank you. That ends this party political broadcast. > Clearly no one has installed an EV button, and utililized it in > a consistent fashion (for example turning it on when you > anticipate driving for less than 2 miles) and measured the > resulting mileage. Forgive my bluntness, Mister Physicist, but it seems called for. Either you've not actually been paying attention to what we have been posting, or you're an idiot, or some mixture of both. Data to hand indicate the third condition, plus ignorance and ego. When are you going to catch on that the Prius "EV" mode does not allow one to use it as you describe? Yes, you could engage "EV" for (say) a series of very short trips. But sooner or later the car's control system would decide the big battery had discharged deeply enough to warrant flipping out of "EV" mode and firing up the petrol engine for a recharge. It does that whether you like it or not, to safeguard the battery (not to mention your ability to drive the car). The length of run just isn't worth it for an average user, the person for whom Toyota make this car. IOW, as you've been told, repeatedly: THE CAR IS IN CHARGE OF STUFF LIKE THAT -- NOT YOU. If you don't like that you already know one solution. The other is: shun this current Prius generation entirely -- along with us farts here shooting the breeze. I especially like the last bit. (Trolls. Bah. You just can't get classy/clever ones any more.) SignatureAndrew Stephenson > "We need more reliable, clear numbers" Andrew Stephenson > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > So, this group is just a bunch of old farts shooting the breeze. Sometimes. Other times we get experts weighing in as well. It is a sum of all of it. > For the record, the way I learned science; discussion, speculations, > conjectures, 'shooting the breeze' are all excellent ways to think about [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > than > 2 miles) and measured the resulting mileage. Yep, looks like we are on the same page here. We have not run this particular test and we have not found it published either, so we are back to our discussion, speculations and conjectures. It is what we have at hand. > Finally, for what its worth to those of you looking for 'hard numbers'; > our [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > -princeton We get about the same MPG here between Flemington and Bound Brook NJ and around here. I read that the whole EPA mileage rating system is being revised to project more realistic numbers, rather than their pie-in-the-sky utopian figures that they have been putting out for years. Pegging the Prius at 44 highway is realistic from my experience. Tomes > I have noticed that the ICV in my Prius runs way more often than I > expected, and for more than just recharging the batteries. The cute [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > improve the Prius's "drivability" in the US; i.e., greater acceleration. > Us Americans are accustomed to "tearing" away from the traffic light. This is exactly it. They use the Gas engine more in the US to provide the performance Americans expect. The funny thing is, the average American Prius driver drives the damn car like a silver-haired Granny in the 1964 F-85 she bought brand new 43 years ago. So adding the EV mode would be a good idea on Toyota's part. In the week I drove one, I spent some time crawling from a start, and found it did NOTHING! I was getting better mileage with an AT Tercel. When I started driving it 'normal', the numbers didn't budge. >> I have noticed that the ICV in my Prius runs way more often than I >> expected, and for more than just recharging the batteries. The cute [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > did NOTHING! I was getting better mileage with an AT Tercel. When I > started driving it 'normal', the numbers didn't budge. If the traction battery has the charged potential to move the car 1000 ft it doesn't matter if it's at acceleration from a dead stop or dispersed for the next couple of miles. So, I agree with your experience 100%. I disagree with your one week assessment of mpg though, unless you filled the tank several times during that week. BTW, I'll be at Thorn's market today sometime around 1 pm. I'm easy to spot. I won't be wearing a winter coat ;) > BTW, I'll be at Thorn's market today sometime around 1 pm. I'm easy to > spot. I won't be wearing a winter coat ;) Whew...I was...it was colder today! >>> I have noticed that the ICV in my Prius runs way more often than I >>> expected, and for more than just recharging the batteries. The cute [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > assessment of mpg though, unless you filled the tank several times during > that week. I was reading it off the computer... > The funny thing is, the average American Prius driver drives the damn car > like a silver-haired Granny in the 1964 F-85 she bought brand new 43 years > ago. So adding the EV mode would be a good idea on Toyota's part. In the > week I drove one, I spent some time crawling from a start, and found it > did NOTHING! I was getting better mileage with an AT Tercel. When I > started driving it 'normal', the numbers didn't budge. Yes, and you've already said that that was on a pre-production model in 2000. The car has had numerous changes since then! I suggest that you try another week test drive in a current NHW20 Prius. (There's also far better emissions controls (notorious for lowering fuel economy) since your AT Tercel... and I won't get into the apples and oranges of comparing a manual to an automatic CVT...) >> The funny thing is, the average American Prius driver drives the damn >> car like a silver-haired Granny in the 1964 F-85 she bought brand new 43 [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > economy) since your AT Tercel... and I won't get into the apples and > oranges of comparing a manual to an automatic CVT...) It was an AT Tercel... > Unbelievable! 11 answers and counting and no-one answers my original > question! Are you all a bunch of politicians!?!?!?! [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > -ralph I've looked into the EV switch (available aftermarket) so I can move the car from the curb into the driveway without the usual condensation of acids in the exhaust. People who have put the switch in say it doesn't affect fuel economy either way - it's just for suppressing the engine operation when it isn't wanted. Mike >Unbelievable! 11 answers and counting and no-one answers my original >question! Are you all a bunch of politicians!?!?!?! [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >-ralph Ralph, Stop and think about hybrids, what they are and how they work. Hybrids are nothing new, the railroads have been using them for since the 1940's. Almost all freight trains are pulled by diesel-electric locomotives. They use diesel-electric for one reason only. A pure diesel locomotive would require a clutch that you couldn't believe. It would have to slip for 10 minutes or more while the train was brought up to speed while transferring as much as 2,000 horse power to the traction wheels through a 50 speed transmission. The electrics take the place of this 40 foot diameter, electric fan cooled, multi-plate wet-clutch as well as the mechanical drive lines. Your hybrid car is a political solution to a political problem. Your car has to haul around heavy batteries, a big generator to recharge the batteries and all the electronics needed to control the electric motor, the charge going into the batteries and monitoring the condition of the batteries. Plus it STILL has a gas IC engine and fuel tank to haul around. All of the mechanical inefficiencies are still there to which we add the electrical inefficiencies (alternator-85% efficient, electric motor-80% efficient, control circuity-85% to 90% efficient, battery recharge-60% to 70%) There is no way it can get the same over-all mileage and still have the same performance as a gasoline-only car. If you want an electric car, fine---buy one. But just remember, there is a reason why the Baker Electrics and Stanley Steamers aren't sold any more. Jack --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 000714-2, 02/16/2007 Tested on: 2/17/2007 10:32:55 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com > Stop and think about hybrids, what they are and how they work. Hybrids > are nothing new, the railroads have been using them for since the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the place of this 40 foot diameter, electric fan cooled, multi-plate > wet-clutch as well as the mechanical drive lines. You are right about the way locomotives operate and why they are diesel-electric (as are many truly huge machines). But you are mistaken to call them hybrids - they have only one power source, the diesel engine. They just have electric transmissions. Hybrids today get their main efficiency improvement from not using the engine as much to do ludicrously inefficient work. As the OP noted, the engine is still used at times that don't make a lot of sense. Blame that on the infancy of the technology. > Your hybrid car is a political solution to a political problem. Your > car has to haul around heavy batteries, a big generator to recharge > the batteries and all the electronics needed to control the electric > motor, the charge going into the batteries and monitoring the > condition of the batteries. Plus it STILL has a gas IC engine and > fuel tank to haul around. Actually, it is an engineering solution to a fundamental conceptual problem. Even as a teenager learning about cars I was struck by the horrible inefficiencies of using large engines to put out negligible power for nearly the entire range of the car's operation. But it was the '60s and gas was cheap. When I first heard about hybrid power trains (around 20 years ago) I immediately recognized them as the solution to the century-old problem. > There is no way it can get the same over-all mileage and still have > the same performance as a gasoline-only car. Ah - that's where you are 100% wrong. One of the central characteristics of hybridization is that the acceleration performance is independent of the power plant capacity, just as a conventional power train's performance is independent of fuel tank size. The engine can be off or just plain dead without affecting the immediate performance of a serial hybrid (none in production yet, sadly). A serial hybrid is essentially an electric car with a charging system on-board. Right now the technology exists to build a serial hybrid that will give the hottest conventional power trains a run for their money; a Tesla (http://tinyurl.com/n52mh) with a small generator tucked somewhere would qualify. Honda (http://tinyurl.com/y96x8o) and Toyota (http://tinyurl.com/2w379) have both demonstrated concept cars that clearly fall in the high performance range and deliver fuel economy in the miser range - 400 hp and an estimated 40 mpg for the parallel hybrid Honda and 400 hp and 32 mpg for the series-parallel hybrid Toyota. Honda engineers pointed out in the Popular Mechanics article back then that using electrics for torque provides off-the-line acceleration equivalent to a 600 hp conventional power train. Toyota simply mentions 0-60 mph in 4 seconds. Mike >> Stop and think about hybrids, what they are and how they work. Hybrids >> are nothing new, the railroads have been using them for since the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >call them hybrids - they have only one power source, the diesel engine. They >just have electric transmissions. Okay if you don't want to call a diesel-electric locomotive a hybrid, that's fine with me. But you shouldn't call hybrid cars hybrids either. They get all of their energy from their IC engine also. The only difference is that hybrid cars also have a mechanical drive train along with their electrical one. >Hybrids today get their main efficiency improvement from not using the >engine as much to do ludicrously inefficient work. As the OP noted, the >engine is still used at times that don't make a lot of sense. Blame that on >the infancy of the technology. No, it uses the IC engine more. The IC engine powers the car at all times, even when it isn't running. If the IC engine isn't running, the car is using energy produced by the IC engine at some time in the past and stored in the batteries. >> Your hybrid car is a political solution to a political problem. Your >> car has to haul around heavy batteries, a big generator to recharge [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >torque provides off-the-line acceleration equivalent to a 600 hp >conventional power train. Toyota simply mentions 0-60 mph in 4 seconds. You're confusing acceleration performance with efficiency. >Mike Mike, you can't ignore physics. It takes energy to accelerate mass. Increase the mass and you have to increase the energy input to maintain the same performance level. That's why all economy cars are small and light. More mass also equals higher rolling resistance which requires energy to overcome. You can use a battery and electric motor to increase the acceleration performance of a car with a small IC engine but you will have to put back the energy you have used at sometime in the future. Each time you convert from one form of energy to another, you will have losses which can't be overcome. You start out with the chemical energy contained in a gallon of gas. Then you burn that gas to produce heat energy but you can't capture all of the heat. You convert that heat energy into mechanical energy with an IC engine which has internal friction losses. Both hybrids and conventional cars have these same losses. To this, a hybrid car adds changing that mechanical energy into electrical energy using an alternator, friction losses and heat losses. You use that electrical energy to recharge a battery converting electrical energy back into chemical energy with it's associated losses. Then, at some time in the future, you discharge that battery converting its chemical energy back into electrical energy with more losses and that electrical energy back into mechanical energy with even more losses. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Perpitual motion is a thing of fiction. If you believe all of these conversion losses add up to an increase in efficiency then you might want to buy this ethanol plant I have for sale. Don't get me wrong, I like ethanol. When its aged in charred oak barrels for 10 years or so and then mixed with a little water. But burn it for fuel....man, that's just plain wrong. --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 000714-3, 02/18/2007 Tested on: 2/18/2007 10:50:43 AM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com >>> Stop and think about hybrids, what they are and how they work. Hybrids >>> are nothing new, the railroads have been using them for since the [quoted text clipped - 90 lines] >energy with more losses and that electrical energy back into >mechanical energy with even more losses. But you are neglecting the factors which make hybrids more efficient: The electrical system provides a means of recovering kinetic energy during braking. The energy which would have gone into heating the brake rotors (and wearing out the pads) is converted to energy stored in the battery. Virtually all of the battery charge comes from this source. Even 50% efficiency in recovery of energy which would have been wasted is efficient. The availability of energy stored in the battery means that the engine doesn't have to provide all the energy under conditions of maximum demand. This allows the engine power to be down rated and therefore run at more efficient (higher) power levels more of the time, e.g. cruising. The availability of electric drive allows the engine to be shut down at times when it is least efficient, e.g. idle and low speed operation. But don't try to factor all this together, just look at it as a black box. You put gas in and go farther and/or faster than in a comparable non-hybrid car. What more evidence do you want? >There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Perpitual motion is a >thing of fiction. If you believe all of these conversion losses add >up to an increase in efficiency then you might want to buy this >ethanol plant I have for sale. If it is in Scotland and they are aging it for at least 12 years, let me know. You act like hybrids are hydrogen fuel cells. People are driving hybrids now and ge |
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