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Car Forum / Honda Cars / March 2007Toyolet prius efficiency
http://omidr.typepad.com/torque/2007/03/toyotas_prius_i.html maybe fewer hybrid crap will be forced on our shoulders after all and Ed Markey would finally shut up? Did Canada sign Kyoto protocol? > http://omidr.typepad.com/torque/2007/03/toyotas_prius_i.html > > maybe fewer hybrid crap will be forced on our shoulders after > all and Ed Markey would finally shut up? > Did Canada sign Kyoto protocol? Wow - that screwy story is being quoted all over the place. It's hard to know where to start with what's wrong with it, but a bit of checking into the history and current status of that nickle plant in Ontario should clarify just how bogus the story is. After that, consider how miniscule the fraction of nickle output that goes into Prius batteries is and the ludicrous assertion that the expected life of a hybrid is 100K miles (mine had more than that when I bought it, and it drives like new).... Don't worry, though. You probably won't be forced into buying a hybrid anytime soon. When conventional power trains can't compete in either power or efficiency, your choices may be limited, but I bet you could still buy a 20th century car even 30 years from now. Maybe even one with 4-wheel drum brakes and recirculating ball steering and a Kettering ignition. When I was a kid fascinated by electronics, the limitations and cost and complexity of transistors spawned pronouncements that transistors would never replace tubes. I knew tubes were finally doomed when transistors became cheaper than tube sockets. Funny what technology does to our world. Mike On Mar 21, 5:51 pm, "Michael Pardee" > never replace tubes. I knew tubes were finally doomed when transistors > became cheaper than tube sockets. Funny what technology does to our world. Exacltly. Prius will be remembered at the vacuum tubes of the early 21st century. I don't like rebooting my cars a few times a day, but that might just be me silly. I wonder if the same problems are delaying the production of the bastardized Elise or Tesla has a simpler system. Someone is going to buy that fat pig anyhow. There is Exige for half the price with 500 pounds or so shaved for the rest of the population. > Response: Prius > isn't a subcompact <snip> That's how it's life began before Toyoda knitting corporation weighted it down with the nickel anchor. > On Mar 21, 5:51 pm, "Michael Pardee" >> never replace tubes. I knew tubes were finally doomed when transistors [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > That's how it's life began before Toyoda knitting corporation weighted > it down with the nickel anchor. I see you have no experience with the Prius. Mine is the second one in the family; we bought my wife's 2002 new nearly 5 years ago and it has been by far the most trouble free car I've ever owned. It has needed only routine maintenance, tires and a replacement windshield (Arizona should be called "the land of rocks") in all that time. The 2002 I bought with 103K miles last year has almost exactly the same service history. I got excited about hybrid technology when I first heard about it around 20 years ago. It's the answer to an engineer's prayer: The flexibility and responsiveness of an electric car and the range of a fuel powered car. Better yet, although car engines very rarely get into double-digit efficiency range, a serial hybrid (not available commercially yet due to the state of development of the higher power electrics) can manage 15-20% efficiency. In the meantime, the series-parallel hybrid power train in the Prius is only one of its features and was not even in the original design. It was designed from the ground up as a 21st century vehicle (the project was known as G21 - see http://www.vfaq.net/docs/Prius_that_shook_world.pdf ). They did a great job with the interior volume; we've taken long trips with 5 people in my daughter's '93 Accord and in my wife's 2002 Prius... the Prius is definitely roomier in back. The current models are even roomier, fitting the midsize mold. With the severe weather gone, I'm getting mid-40s mpg again. Much of that is 3 mile commutes, but I got 44 measured mpg on a 340 mile round trip to Phoenix, complete with 75 mph freeways and a 6000 ft elevation change. And we haven't seen anything yet. (And you do reboot your car several times on an average day... that's the rrr...rrr noise you hear when you turn the ignition key all the way to the "start" position.) Mike On Mar 22, 4:57 am, "Michael Pardee" > With the severe weather gone, I'm getting mid-40s mpg again. Much of that is > 3 mile commutes, but I got 44 measured mpg on a 340 mile round trip to > Phoenix, complete with 75 mph freeways and a 6000 ft elevation change. And > we haven't seen anything yet. pluck the high tech brick out and put and old tech battery in and you'd get an exact same highway mileage. If the software can manage the battery switch that is. Can it? > On Mar 22, 4:57 am, "Michael Pardee" >> With the severe weather gone, I'm getting mid-40s mpg again. Much of that [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > If the software can manage the battery switch that is. > Can it? I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. If you are recommending replacing the NiMH battery with lead-acid, no, it can't be done. The NiMH is deeply integrated into the hybrid system via the cell bank monitoring. Since the SOC/voltage curves for lead-acid are not the same as for NiMH the battery would either fail to receive a charge or would persistently overcharge. Considering the 12V AGM lead-acid "aux" battery in Prius cars is as troublesome as the 12V battery in other cars and the NiMH main battery is extremely reliable at least up to the 200K mile mark (based on owner reports), I don't see the reason to switch battery types. Mike >On Mar 21, 5:51 pm, "Michael Pardee" >> never replace tubes. I knew tubes were finally doomed when transistors >> became cheaper than tube sockets. Funny what technology does to our world. >> >Exacltly. Prius will be remembered at the vacuum tubes of the >early 21st century. Is someone claiming that the 2007 Prius will be cutting edge technology for the next 50 years? As for vacuum tubes, most televisions had them up until the 1980s or so. Assuming you are old enough, did you postpone purchasing a television until then because they had tube technology? >I don't like rebooting my cars a few times >a day, but that might just be me silly. Rebooting? > I wonder if the same >problems are delaying the production of the bastardized Elise >or Tesla has a simpler system. What problems? I have not hard of any serious design defects with the Prius. > Someone is going to buy that fat pig >anyhow. There is Exige for half the price with 500 pounds >or so shaved for the rest of the population. What does the Tesla have to do with the Prius? >> Response: Prius >> isn't a subcompact <snip> > >That's how it's life began before Toyoda knitting corporation weighted >it down with the nickel anchor. ??? The current Prius was designed for the ground up to be a mid-size hybrid car. On Mar 22, 8:49 pm, Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVr...@mindspring.com> wrote: > >On Mar 21, 5:51 pm, "Michael Pardee" > >> never replace tubes. I knew tubes were finally doomed when transistors [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Is someone claiming that the 2007 Prius will be cutting edge > technology for the next 50 years? It was a piece of junk when it came out. The only notable part is the hybrid power train. Remove that and you are left with an obviously shitty platform. > As for vacuum tubes, most televisions had them up until the 1980s or > so. Assuming you are old enough, did you postpone purchasing a > television until then because they had tube technology? Tubes have their place in high end audio. Just like the prius: niche technology adopted far wider than it should have been. Taxis and mail delivery: maybe. I don't see what use there is to the general public. > >I don't like rebooting my cars a few times > >a day, but that might just be me silly. > > Rebooting? http://www.caranddriver.com/features/8695/sport-got-hybrid.html > > I wonder if the same > >problems are delaying the production of the bastardized Elise > >or Tesla has a simpler system. > > What problems? I have not hard of any serious design defects with the > Prius. Design defects? You mean aside from being a boring piece of sh.t? As for production defects there are plenty: http://www.caranddriver.com/dailyautoinsider/9565/software-problem-affects-some- toyota-prius-hybrids.html http://www.caranddriver.com/dailyautoinsider/10194/toyota-recalls-prius-hybrids.html if you google enough you'd find a bit more with the older Echo based crappola. > > Someone is going to buy that fat pig > >anyhow. There is Exige for half the price with 500 pounds > >or so shaved for the rest of the population. > > What does the Tesla have to do with the Prius? Same buggy electrical system I suppose. Too early to tell, but judging by the delayed shipment of the first ones they had serious problems going into production even with the helping hand of Lotus. In all fairness the first crop of bmw 3xx had their share of electrical problems also. The problem is: prius is not half the car beemer is. >On Mar 22, 8:49 pm, Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVr...@mindspring.com> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >It was a piece of junk when it came out. >The only notable part is the hybrid power train. Certainly the most notable aspect of the car, but it is otherwise a competent family vehicle. Comfortable and reliable. >Remove that and you are left with an obviously shitty platform. Why? >> As for vacuum tubes, most televisions had them up until the 1980s or >> so. Assuming you are old enough, did you postpone purchasing a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Taxis and mail delivery: maybe. I don't see what use >there is to the general public. General transportation with excellent fuel economy. What's wrong with that? >> >I don't like rebooting my cars a few times >> >a day, but that might just be me silly. >> >> Rebooting? > >http://www.caranddriver.com/features/8695/sport-got-hybrid.html Modified early production Prius being run in an unorthodox manner at the Bonneville salt flats. This may have been related to the recall problem discussed below. I don't recall any automotive reviews or owner reports mentioning this as a problem, at least since the recall was completed. >> > I wonder if the same >> >problems are delaying the production of the bastardized Elise [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Design defects? You mean aside from being a boring piece of sh.t? As If you want to rant about boring pieces of sh.t, why don't you pick on the Dodge Caravan? The Prius doesn't have the performance I would personally prefer, but it is interesting in its unconventional operation. >for production defects there are plenty: >http://www.caranddriver.com/dailyautoinsider/9565/software-problem-affects-some- toyota-prius-hybrids.html >http://www.caranddriver.com/dailyautoinsider/10194/toyota-recalls-prius-hybrids.html >if you google enough you'd find a bit more with the older >Echo based crappola. So, the car had a recall. Lots of cars have recalls. Why pick on this one? The Prius has an excellent reliability record. The old model wasn't as good as the new one in many respects, but it is still more reliable than just about anything that isn't a Toyota or Honda product. >> > Someone is going to buy that fat pig >> >anyhow. There is Exige for half the price with 500 pounds [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Same buggy electrical system I suppose. I doubt it. The Tesla is pure electric. Why would its electrical system have anything to do with a Prius. Other than the glitch with the recalled 04/05s (which have all been fixed by now), what Prius bugs are you referring to? Be specific. >Too early to tell, >but judging by the delayed shipment of the first ones >they had serious problems going into production even >with the helping hand of Lotus. In all fairness the first >crop of bmw 3xx had their share of electrical problems also. >The problem is: prius is not half the car beemer is. Argument by meandering non sequitur? Are we talking about Prius, Tesla or BMW? By all accounts, the Tesla is not a boring piece of sh.t. My personal guess is that it will be an exciting piece of sh.t, assuming you can get it somewhere fun to drive it without drastically depleting the batteries. Buy a trailer and a pickup to haul it to the track. Isn't it a little stupid to be comparing the Prius to a car (BMW 328) that costs 50% more? Not to mention that the Prius will be far cheaper to operate. The BMW will have much more luxury and performance, but you will pay a lot for it, probably twice as much. For most buyers, the Prius would be the best choice by far over either of these other cars. The Tesla will be wildly impractical. The BMW is mostly a status symbol. Not that it isn't fun to drive and modestly luxurious, but most buyers don't know what to do with the performance and equivalent luxury could be had in a far less finicky (and somewhat less expensive) Japanese car. On Mar 23, 4:11 pm, Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVr...@mindspring.com> wrote: the goddamn creation of the google braniacs lost my rant about the shittiness of the Echo platform later stretched into the modern day Prius here. Who wrote that composer widget??? Same guy who designed Echo? > Argument by meandering non sequitur? Are we talking about Prius, > Tesla or BMW? We are talking about a car versus a transportation implement among other things. The Prius being the latter and Tesla/BMW being the former. > By all accounts, the Tesla is not a boring piece of sh.t. My personal > guess is that it will be an exciting piece of sh.t, assuming you can > get it somewhere fun to drive it without drastically depleting the > batteries. Buy a trailer and a pickup to haul it to the track. Where people in Elise/Exige would smoke you, get into an accident, fix the front end, crash again and buy another Elise for the amount of money you spent on the 500lbs heavier car. Tesla is a no contender. It's too heavy. > Isn't it a little stupid to be comparing the Prius to a car (BMW 328) > that costs 50% more? Not to mention that the Prius will be far > cheaper to operate. The BMW will have much more luxury and > performance, but you will pay a lot for it, probably twice as much. ??? If I compared it to G35/Z350 you would've discounted my comparison less? > For most buyers, the Prius would be the best choice by far over either > of these other cars. The Tesla will be wildly impractical. The BMW > is mostly a status symbol. Not that it isn't fun to drive and > modestly luxurious, but most buyers don't know what to do with the > performance and equivalent luxury could be had in a far less finicky > (and somewhat less expensive) Japanese car. It's a pity but you might be right. I leave in the ubercompetitive part of california and forget that there are places with the pace of life of the mide west. Maybe I should relocate to cure my authomotive enthusiasm. >On Mar 23, 4:11 pm, Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVr...@mindspring.com> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >among other things. The Prius being the latter and Tesla/BMW >being the former. What you are talking about is a performance car versus a family car. The BMW is a reasonable substitute for a Prius if you have the money and want to spend it on a car. The Tesla is a toy, and a pretty expensive one at that. For the price, there are a lot of other toys that I would rather own. Face it, some people either can't afford a BMW or simply don't care about performance and luxury enough to fork over the extra cash. But even if you enjoy sneering at such people, why pick on Prius owners. Why not sneer at Corolla owners or Civic DX owners or owners of whatever sh.t boxes GM, Ford and Chrysler are selling now. >> By all accounts, the Tesla is not a boring piece of sh.t. My personal >> guess is that it will be an exciting piece of sh.t, assuming you can [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >amount of money you spent on the 500lbs heavier car. >Tesla is a no contender. It's too heavy. Oh, don't get me wrong. There are a hell of a lot of cars that would be more fun for less money, but the Tesla would still be fun (when it is running.) >> Isn't it a little stupid to be comparing the Prius to a car (BMW 328) >> that costs 50% more? Not to mention that the Prius will be far [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >??? If I compared it to G35/Z350 you would've discounted >my comparison less? Uh, no. You are still comparing cars that cost $10K more. In the case of the Z car you are comparing a $33K sports car to a $23K green family car. Does that sound like a reasonable comparison to you? >> For most buyers, the Prius would be the best choice by far over either >> of these other cars. The Tesla will be wildly impractical. The BMW [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >pace of life of the mide west. Maybe I should relocate to cure >my authomotive enthusiasm. That explains a lot. Automotive enthusiasm is not your problem. Superficiality may be. It is fine to enjoy high performance and/or luxury in an automobile. It is more than a bit tacky to look down on people because they can't afford an expensive car or simply value different things in a car than you do. On Mar 27, 7:45 pm, Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVr...@mindspring.com> wrote: > >On Mar 23, 4:11 pm, Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVr...@mindspring.com> > >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Why not sneer at Corolla owners or Civic DX owners or owners of > whatever sh.t boxes GM, Ford and Chrysler are selling now. I don't sneer at Civic DX owners. Aside from the lack of A/C that people in some climates don't need there is nothing to sneer at. Stick a hybrid powertrain in it and it's still a decent car. Yep, corolla is a different story though. At about 85+ mph the steering calibration and testing just was not performed. Nothing is wrong with PT cruiser. I just prefer BARs over Tommy submachine guns. > Oh, don't get me wrong. There are a hell of a lot of cars that would > be more fun for less money, but the Tesla would still be fun (when it > is running.) I'm sure it will be a fun city car for people who don't keep a habit of running out of gas, er, charge. > >??? If I compared it to G35/Z350 you would've discounted > >my comparison less? > > Uh, no. You are still comparing cars that cost $10K more. In the > case of the Z car you are comparing a $33K sports car to a $23K green > family car. Does that sound like a reasonable comparison to you? Yes. Bottom line z350 cost $27k and wrx cost about $23. To me both are fine family cars if you keep inlaws in shape. Nevermind the 08 wrx. prius looks prettier than that :-[ > That explains a lot. Automotive enthusiasm is not your problem. > Superficiality may be. It is fine to enjoy high performance and/or > luxury in an automobile. It is more than a bit tacky to look down on > people because they can't afford an expensive car or simply value > different things in a car than you do. I don't look down on people who can't afford expensive cars. I look down on people who are buying cars that, as a whole, are a piece of junk even though there are much better choices for thousands less. But I guess you are partially right. No contest. > http://www.caranddriver.com/features/8695/sport-got-hybrid.html He would have saved himself embarrassment if he had RTFM. Can't fault the car for the driver's error. Mike On Mar 23, 5:27 pm, "Michael Pardee" <michaeltn...@cybertrails.com> wrote: > <isq...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > He would have saved himself embarrassment if he had RTFM. Can't fault the > car for the driver's error. Behold, finally there is a car where a driver MUST study the manual before driving. Isn't that an achievement. > Behold, finally there is a car where a driver MUST study > the manual before driving. Isn't that an achievement. You've probably noticed there is a strong current of RTFM here. People who don't RTFM too often come here because they didn't know they were supposed to change their timing belts or use only Honda fluids in their AT or PS. I guess you are a baby-boomer like me, and remember when an owner's manual was only to tell you where the switches and fuses were, or how to place the jack. Now every owner who ignores the manual will suffer, and a lot worse than not knowing how to start the car! Mike >>Behold, finally there is a car where a driver MUST study >>the manual before driving. Isn't that an achievement. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Mike Which I believe is a step backwards. Stepping away from standardization in the end will hurt rather than help a manufacturer. It effects everything from costs, selection and is a time consumer when life is getting ever more complicated. Since retiring, I've spent more time performing tasks which should be "rolled in" regarding services, bill paying etc. Maybe I should just sell everything and move to a tropical island and just live off the land and take life one day at a time while ignoring the useless squabbling going on in the world... JT (So long as the coconuts don't run out that is!) >> You've probably noticed there is a strong current of RTFM here. People >> who don't RTFM too often come here because they didn't know they were [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > (So long as the coconuts don't run out that is!) There is something to be said for standardization. I have trouble changing from my Ford work truck to my Toyota. Twisting the left stalk controls the wipers on the Ford and the headlights on the Toyota. My mother had a Renault 10, circa 1970. I was driving it one night and signaled for a right turn by flipping the left stalk upward... which turned off the headlights! Guess I should have been happy the steering wheel was on the left. Mike On Mar 27, 4:47 am, "Michael Pardee" <michaeltn...@cybertrails.com> wrote: > <isq...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > don't RTFM too often come here because they didn't know they were supposed > to change their timing belts or use only Honda fluids in their AT or PS. For maintenance, yes it makes sense. > I guess you are a baby-boomer like me, and remember when an owner's manual > was only to tell you where the switches and fuses were, or how Not really. mid 30s. If I were older I might have appreciated the softly sprung suspension and intermittently noiseless operation while in the city. On the highway it's useless naturally since the wind noise drowns the engine noise unless you have a fart can for exhaust I guess. Very unlikely on Prius :-] to place the > jack. Now every owner who ignores the manual will suffer, and a lot worse > than not knowing how to start the car! Evasive maneuvers, eh? Anyhow, that was just a one off car purpose built i don't suppose you have to do the same in yours. > On Mar 27, 4:47 am, "Michael Pardee" <michaeltn...@cybertrails.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > noise drowns the engine noise unless you have a fart can > for exhaust I guess. Very unlikely on Prius :-] (Disclaimer - I have the sedan, not the hatchback.) The suspension is typical of family cars of the same dimensions. The wind noise is not bad at all; rather, road noise is mostly what the passengers hear. I had some Pirellis on it that made a weird "flying saucer" noise on smooth pavement. In town it is very hard to tell when the engine starts and stops, except for the odd occasion when the engine lurches when it shuts down. > to place the >> jack. Now every owner who ignores the manual will suffer, and a lot worse [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Anyhow, that was just a one off car purpose built > i don't suppose you have to do the same in yours. I'm not sure I follow you there, but the sedan version of the Prius is more conventional in starting. Like any other auto tranny car, the "shifter" (more properly, "mode selector") is left in Park and the driver puts his foot on the brake while starting and while shifting into gear. IIRC the new model, the hatchback, requires the car to be started with the brake depressed. The version I have doesn't. Mike >>On Mar 21, 5:51 pm, "Michael Pardee" >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > so. Assuming you are old enough, did you postpone purchasing a > television until then because they had tube technology? Even today, when one buys a CRT TV, that component is still a vacuum tube.. >>I don't like rebooting my cars a few times >>a day, but that might just be me silly. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > What problems? I have not hard of any serious design defects with the > Prius. A note regarding the Tesla, I believe that it is solely electric. I'm following the sedan design closely as if it works out, it is not all that far (costwise) from being within range from an economic standpoint. >>Someone is going to buy that fat pig >>anyhow. There is Exige for half the price with 500 pounds [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > ??? The current Prius was designed for the ground up to be a mid-size > hybrid car. > Even today, when one buys a CRT TV, that component is still a vacuum > tube.. And high power or GHz+ transmitters and microwave ovens still use tubes. There will always be conventional power trains, too, in trucks and motorcycles. But just as most electronics applications today are solid state it is a safe bet that passenger cars will be almost entirely hybridized (or whatever comes next) in a handful of decades. Change is something we either accept or not, but it occurs anyway because of market forces or government fiat. I would not have predicted the complete takeover of EFI in the US, but the requirements of emission control outweighed the high cost and modest benefit. If CAFE comes back with a vengeance the changeover to hybridization may be quicker than I expect. In the end, the performance will be what the public will demand even if the gov'ts don't. "... 'cause it's understood I got a fuel injected engine under my hood! What, all of you too?" Apologies to the Beach Boys. Mike >> Even today, when one buys a CRT TV, that component is still a vacuum >> tube.. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > takeover of EFI in the US, but the requirements of emission control > outweighed the high cost and modest benefit. "modest benefit"??? gotta tell you dude, my injected civics are /way/ more reliable than any carburetted car i ever owned. that's no "modest benefit". much easier to fix too. different, but definitely easier. > If CAFE comes back with a > vengeance the changeover to hybridization may be quicker than I expect. In [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Mike >http://omidr.typepad.com/torque/2007/03/toyotas_prius_i.html > >maybe fewer hybrid crap will be forced on our shoulders after >all and Ed Markey would finally shut up? >Did Canada sign Kyoto protocol? This site is pretty silly, claiming that a Prius is more harmful to the environment than a Hummer. There argument sums up to: Zinc for the battery is mined and this one zinc mine was an environmental disaster dating back more than 50 years. Response: Environmental standards have improved a lot in the last 50 years. The fact that the mine is in Canada assures me that it is no running in an environmentally sound manner. The battery has a limited life and must be disposed of. Response: systems are well in place to recycle the materials which will reduce the need to mine new ore. The materials for the battery are moved around the world during manufacturing. That wastes energy. Response: Silliest argument of all. This is true of any vehicle and most any large or complex manufactured item. How does the cost of moving those batteries compare with the cost of moving the steel for the Hummer from Korea or Japan or China to the US? How far did the coke and iron have to travel to the steel mill? The Hummer will last 300,000 miles and the Prius will only last 100,000. Response: Pure speculation. If gas goes to $5, I could see the Hummer getting taken out of service immediately. Even at $3, putting $2K into a 100,000 mile, 45 mpg Prius makes good economic sense if you think it will go at least another 50,000. Most long-term Toyota (and Honda) owners will think that is a pretty good bet. Some conventional subcompacts can get almost 45 mpg. Response: Prius isn't a subcompact and Hummers get about 12. It's true that the realistic mpg of Prius is about 45 mpg, which is only about 30% better than the 35 mpg I get from my gasoline Civic. But I think most people neglect the emissions benefit of hybrids: typically 90% less than gasoline cars. And probably way more than that compared to a Hummer. > It's true that the realistic mpg of Prius is about 45 mpg, which is > only about 30% better than the 35 mpg I get from my gasoline Civic. > But I think most people neglect the emissions benefit of hybrids: > typically 90% less than gasoline cars. And probably way more than that The one I was next to the other day in a parking lot DID have the gasoline engine idling so I don't see where you pulled the 90% number out of. From the tesla marketing materials? That one surely does not run the motor at idle. On Mar 22, 8:43 am, isq...@gmail.com wrote: > The one I was next to the other day in a parking lot DID have > the gasoline engine idling so I don't see where you pulled the > 90% number out of. From the tesla marketing materials? > That one surely does not run the motor at idle. man, you are skeptical. Tesla? that's an all-electric. which probably produces more emissions than a hybrid because the electricity is generated by burning coal, natural gas, and oil. "Emissions - 89 percent fewer smog-forming emissions than the average new car, exceeding the standards for a Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle (SULEV)" http://www.hybridcars.com/compacts-sedans/toyota-prius-overview.html The reason why hybrids can have near zero emissions is because they keep the engine running at peak efficiency as much as possible. > On Mar 22, 8:43 am, isq...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > produces more emissions than a hybrid because the electricity is > generated by burning coal, natural gas, and oil. You are saying that the power plant that for example burns diesel does so with more emissions than a diesel car does? Nuclear plants produce relatively clean electricity unless they blow up or the by products are disposed of improperly. It's definitely easier to control the waste from immovable plant than from hundreds of millions of cars (some of which are even exempt from emissions testing in the US, and out of USA I bet some countries don't even have a requirement to test the cars as a part of an annual check). On Mar 23, 5:27 pm, isq...@gmail.com wrote: > You are saying that the power plant that for example burns > diesel does so with more emissions than a diesel car does? it's quite possible that the amount of emissions produced by the power plant to produce the electricity to charge a Telsa car could be more than the emissions than a gasoline car. > Nuclear plants produce relatively clean electricity > unless they blow up or the by products are disposed of improperly. ok, but you cannot choose your power source when you use electricity. The power sources all mixed in the electrical grid. And about 80% of U.S. power comes from coal, oil, and natural gas. http://energy.cr.usgs.gov/energy/stats_ctry/Stat1.html > It's true that the realistic mpg of Prius is about 45 mpg, which is > only about 30% better than the 35 mpg I get from my gasoline Civic. > But I think most people neglect the emissions benefit of hybrids: > typically 90% less than gasoline cars. And probably way more than that > compared to a Hummer. Doesnt follow? A gallon of gasoline burned in a Civic or a Hybrid still puts 22 pounds of carbon dioxide in the air. Its just the Hybrid goes 40% further per gallon. > Doesnt follow? > A gallon of gasoline burned in a Civic or a Hybrid still puts > 22 pounds of carbon dioxide in the air. Its just the Hybrid > goes 40% further per gallon. car emissions consist of hydrocarbons, nox, carbon monoxide, and carbon dioxide. A lot of the emissions occur when the engine is in a transitional state or not running at optimal efficiency. With a parallel battery power, hybrids can keep engines running at optimal efficiency (or off). Hybrids produce less emissions than simply the difference in mpg. Its a similar situation with computer chips and solar cells considering the nasty chemicals that go into manufacturing them. There several toxic waste sites around Silicon Valley from chemical leaks in older days when they were less careful. Its improved now, or been offshored. Or that Google is one of the largest consumers of electric power in theworld because it has the worlds largest computer system- 2 million CPUS spread over 60 data sites. But to be fair, Google is also the most efficient computer operator in the world per terabyte of storage because they have paid both economic and ecological attention to efficient computing. Being green isnt easy.
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