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Car Forum / Honda Cars / May 20071995 Honda Accord boils over
My daughter owns a 1995 Accord with about 125K on it and a new timing belt and water pump. The car was running fine for several months after purchase when it suddenly got hot and boiled over. She had the thermostat replaced and that wasn't the issue. Here's what I know: It starts and runs normally, it heats up to normal operating temperature at idle and will happily stay there all day. With the cap off, the water level will come up and overflow the filler neck and if i accelerate the engine, the water will pull out of the neck into the system. Water does seem to move through the system and with the heater on, I get heat in the cab...lots of it. With the heater off and full cold with A/C on, temp remains the same and the cooling fans come on. The fans will run after I shut it off. If I drive it a short distance it is happy enough but (if the car is warmed up) after about 1/2 a mile, the gauge will jump to the halfway point and then climb. I can turn the heater on full bore and get it to cool some but it won't be happy for long. If I pull over and let it idle, it returns to normal temp. I have bled the system according to the Service Manual for the car. I have verified as best I can that there are no holes in the system and I see no leaks. When the engine warmed up, it looked like it was burping some air out, but the bubbles were random and they were not smoky. I see no steady stream of bubbles in the coolant as it passes through the radiator, but when the system is closed and it gets warm the behavior is that of an old car boiling over. There is a lot of action in the overflow tank and it begins to fill and bubble violently. I am out of options. I am getting conflicting symptoms as to whether or not it is a failed head gasket and I am not sure if the cooling fans are working while it is just running down the road since my wife won't let me strap one of my boys to the hood while I drive it to look and listen. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. > My daughter owns a 1995 Accord with about 125K on it and a new timing > belt and water pump. The car was running fine for several months after [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > and listen. > Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. if there's bubbling in the expansion bottle, it's head gasket. for sure. unless you do the job yourself, and know what you're doing, price out the options between having it repaired and simply replacing the motor with a jdm import. they're surprisingly cheap and labor to replace is substantially less than a gasket job and all the labor involved. >> Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. >> > if there's bubbling in the expansion bottle, it's head gasket. Not necessarily. When the coolant overheats it boils. Since it is a closed system, the only place it can boil is...in the bottle. Last summer my Supra (the Poster Child for bad head gaskets!) boiled over a couple of times. The first time was scary as hell! On the highway, temp gauge rising, a loud *SIGH* from under the hood and smoke kind of smoke! I still have NO idea what the smoke was! Opened the hood and the Overflow bottle was bubbling like a witch's cauldron! I let it cool and it ran fine for a few weeks. Then, we were on our way to a gig in Vermont and it started overheating again. This time I was keeping an eye on the termp gauge and pulled over well before it sighed again. But the OF bottle was bubbling up again.We got to the place just as the temp was creeping up again. In the next week I ran some tests and determined the fan clutch was shot, and on hot days there just wasn't enough air getting into the engine bay. I put in a new fan clutch (this was in late June, BTW) and I haven't had a problem since. No coolant disappearing, no boil overs, no overheating. I consider myself LUCKY! (Knocking on my Pine desk!!!) Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote: >>> Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. >>> >> if there's bubbling in the expansion bottle, it's head gasket. > > Not necessarily. When the coolant overheats it boils. Since it is a closed > system, the only place it can boil is...in the bottle. that's supposition, not fact. run an infrared thermometer on the cooling system. check out the temperature delta between the main system and the expansion bottle on the end of the long skinny pipe. the only way for there to be gas bubbling in that bottle simply from "boiling" is if the vent on the radiator cap is stuck, /and/ the engine reaches way past boiling, /and/ this cap suddenly releases allowing sufficient superheated water to exit the long skinny pipe still at above boiling, and for that to heat and keep on heating the cooler liquid in the expansion bottle. it /can/ happen, but it's highly unlikely. > Last summer my Supra (the Poster Child for bad head gaskets!) boiled over > a couple of times. The first time was scary as hell! On the highway, temp > gauge rising, the fans don't work on the highway - airflow from car movement exceeds airflow from fan rotation by a country mile. if you were boiling, you had airflow restriction, thermostat problems or a gasket problem. > a loud *SIGH* from under the hood and smoke kind of smoke! I > still have NO idea what the smoke was! Opened the hood and the Overflow > bottle was bubbling like a witch's cauldron! I let it cool and it ran fine > for a few weeks. buy an infrared thermometer and scope the temp of the block. > Then, we were on our way to a gig in Vermont and it started overheating > again. This time I was keeping an eye on the termp gauge and pulled over [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I consider myself LUCKY! (Knocking on my Pine desk!!!) gaskets can be odd. i boiled mine with a leaking gasket a couple of summers ago. then she settled down, then she stated leaking again. and i ran it leaking for about 10k miles before i decided it was bad enough to fix. you [and the op] should do an exhaust gas chemical test on the coolant - that'll show for sure. > Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > airflow from fan rotation by a country mile. if you were boiling, you had > airflow restriction, thermostat problems or a gasket problem. LOL! You come to Mass on a hot July day, and I'll take you for a ride. At 70MPH on the highway, when the fan kicks in it sounds like a B-17 trying to pass you! Oh, yeah, the fan kicks in! (It's attached to the crankshaft...not electric, and uses a heat-sensitive oil that thickens when hot and causes the fan to be driven, rather than just 'feathering'.) >> a loud *SIGH* from under the hood and smoke kind of smoke! I still have >> NO idea what the smoke was! Opened the hood and the Overflow bottle was [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > you [and the op] should do an exhaust gas chemical test on the coolant - > that'll show for sure. Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote: >> Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > crankshaft...not electric, and uses a heat-sensitive oil that thickens > when hot and causes the fan to be driven, rather than just 'feathering'.) it comes on because it's just a "dumb" thermostat control, but it doesnt' mean it's contributing very much. how much additional airflow do you think is generated by 1 sq ft of fan vs 70mph on the full rad? if it's even 10% i'll be amazed. >>> a loud *SIGH* from under the hood and smoke kind of smoke! I still have >>> NO idea what the smoke was! Opened the hood and the Overflow bottle was [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> you [and the op] should do an exhaust gas chemical test on the coolant - >> that'll show for sure. >> LOL! You come to Mass on a hot July day, and I'll take you for a ride. >> At 70MPH on the highway, when the fan kicks in it sounds like a B-17 [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > mean it's contributing very much. how much additional airflow do you > think is generated by 1 sq ft of fan vs 70mph on the full rad? Brings the temp down on the gauge, keeps the car from overheating. I'd say, enough! snip >>the fans don't work on the highway - airflow from car movement exceeds >>airflow from fan rotation by a country mile. if you were boiling, you had [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > crankshaft...not electric, and uses a heat-sensitive oil that thickens > when hot and causes the fan to be driven, rather than just 'feathering'.) This is new to me... A fan attached to the crankshaft??? What is this vehicle? That said, if you're going 70 mph and it (thermostatic clutch) causes the fan to come on, most likely you either have too little radiator or its plugged. JT > Hachiroku ãƒãƒãƒã‚¯ wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > This is new to me... A fan attached to the crankshaft??? What is > this vehicle? Not a Honda. > That said, if you're going 70 mph and it (thermostatic clutch) causes > the fan to come on, most likely you either have too little radiator or > its plugged. > > JT No kidding.When the thermostat on my Integra stuck open,just going 20 mph would cool the motor down to the C line(well below normal),In hot Central Florida,in the summer.  SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net >>Hachiroku ãƒãƒãƒã‚¯ wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > would cool the motor down to the C line(well below normal),In hot Central > Florida,in the summer. ...which is a whole lot better than it stickin' closed! <G> JT >>> LOL! You come to Mass on a hot July day, and I'll take you for a ride. >>> At 70MPH on the highway, when the fan kicks in it sounds like a B-17 [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> This is new to me... A fan attached to the crankshaft??? What is this >> vehicle? It was late...you know, not electric...at the front of the engine...Old School... > Not a Honda. '88 Supra...the Poster Child for Blown Head Gaskets... Hachiroku wrote: > '88 Supra...the Poster Child for Blown Head Gaskets... I know that version of Supra had head gasket issues. But surely the real poster child for blown head gaskets would be a Dodge Neon, wouldn't it? :-) > Hachiroku wrote: > >>'88 Supra...the Poster Child for Blown Head Gaskets... > > I know that version of Supra had head gasket issues. But surely the real > poster child for blown head gaskets would be a Dodge Neon, wouldn't it? :-) Or Taurus' with the 3.8 engine. I can tell a long tale of woe regarding one of those POS... JT >> Hachiroku wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > JT I used to work for a guy that sold used Fords. We sold a lot of Taurus', but RARELY one with a 3.8. He *knew* better! I was working at a CarQuest, and we had a small market across from us. A guy stopped with a Continental to get a paper and a cup of coffee. It was Feb, so he left the motor running. Normal...a little steam..then a puff...and another puff...and a few more puffs...by the time the guy came out of the store there was a steady stream of steam flowing from the tailpipe. He stopped someone passing, pointed to the tailpipe, and the other guy just shrugged his shoulders and walked on. Before I could get to the door, the guy drove off. Sure hope he went RIGHT to the Ford dealer down the street! > Hachiroku ÇgÇYǧÇG wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > poster child for blown head gaskets would be a Dodge Neon, wouldn't it? > :-) I nominate the anything with the Subaru 2.5L and Renault turbos. > Hachiroku wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > poster child for blown head gaskets would be a Dodge Neon, wouldn't it? > :-) When they designed the car, asbestos HGs were still in use. When building started, asbestos HGs were gone. I guess they went to a semi-metallic HG, which called for higher torque on the head bolts. Toyota *didn't* call for higher torque, and suffered a lot of BHGs. Luckily, whoever had the car originally either had the head retorqued, or replaced the gasket and had it torqued to the new spec. > snip > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > This is new to me... A fan attached to the crankshaft??? What is this > vehicle? I may be showing my age...I'm not sure if it's actually on the crankshaft...(I'm sure it's not...) > That said, if you're going 70 mph and it (thermostatic clutch) causes > the fan to come on, most likely you either have too little radiator or > its plugged. > > JT Everything seems OK, but the previous owner sunk $1100 into the cooling system... Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote: >> snip >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Everything seems OK, but the previous owner sunk $1100 into the cooling > system... doesn't mean they knew what they were doing. i knew a guy spend thousands on "cooling problems" for a rear engine, front radiator car he was trying to race. constant overheating. he, and a number of other "race mechanics" failed to see the significance of a 3/4" home-built water manifold bolted onto where the thermostat was supposed to be. whoda thunk to consider effect of such a small pipe on coolant flow!!! bottom line, these vehicles ship from factory having been tested at full throttle, fully loaded, in summer, in death valley. if yours is overheating just tooling along the highway without aftermarket assistance, there's something wrong. and it's not the fan. > Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > overheating just tooling along the highway without aftermarket > assistance, there's something wrong. and it's not the fan. About thirty years ago while returning home from a car show with my 1956 Studebaker Hawk, the temperature gauge began to rise. I pulled over and saw that the fan belt had "disappeared." At any rate, the rest of the drive was on a freeway and I surmised that I could get home since the incoming air would drive the water pump as well as cool the radiator so long as I kept up a reasonable speed. The gauge never went above 180°. Sometimes, "old" can be better... JT >> Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > > JT that's not "old", it's simply designing the heat dumper to match the heat generator. with an electric radiator fan, no healthy car will use anything other than airflow cooling on the freeway. >>> Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > heat generator. with an electric radiator fan, no healthy car will > use anything other than airflow cooling on the freeway. Autos use electric fans purposely so they don't have to draw engine power to turn the radiator fan when it's not needed;when the vehicle is at speed and there's plenty of natural airflow. The old belt driven fans changed to plastic blades because they could flatten out at higher speeds and draw less power from the motor. Electric fans were just the next step after that for economy. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net >>>> Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > The old belt driven fans changed to plastic blades because they could > flatten out at higher speeds by "flatten out" do you mean a variable pitch fan blade? that's somewhat exotic and rather expensive. what used them? > and draw less power from the motor. > Electric fans were just the next step after that for economy. >> The old belt driven fans changed to plastic blades because they could >> flatten out at higher speeds > > by "flatten out" do you mean a variable pitch fan blade? that's somewhat > exotic and rather expensive. what used them? My Supra has one. Also a Celica I had ('85) and an '85 Corolla. Most of the fans post 75 or so are plastic, one reason being weight and the other being the flexability of plastic. I can't remember the last time I saw a metal fan! Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote: >>> The old belt driven fans changed to plastic blades because they could >>> flatten out at higher speeds [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the other being the flexability of plastic. I can't remember the last time > I saw a metal fan! just because it's plastic does not mean it's flexible enough to "flatten out" as if it's variable pitch. what mechanical properties do /you/ think "flexibility" gives the fan? > Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > out" as if it's variable pitch. what mechanical properties do /you/ think > "flexibility" gives the fan? Who cares? Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote: >> Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Who cares? you should if you want the fan to move the freakin' air that you think is cooling your engine!!! if the blades can adopt a position of least resistance, they will. that means throughput will be minimal - totally defeats their supposed purpose. > Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > resistance, they will. that means throughput will be minimal - totally > defeats their supposed purpose. I would be inclined to think that these fans could actually inhibit cooling during high speed driving as the "flattened" fan blades would act muck like a feathered prop in the wrong position which then enters a windmilling mode. I never had any confidence in these "devices." JT >> Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > act muck like a feathered prop in the wrong position which then enters a > windmilling mode. agreed! > I never had any confidence in these "devices." > > JT > I would be inclined to think that these fans could actually inhibit > cooling during high speed driving as the "flattened" fan blades would act [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > JT I don't think they can inhibit air flow that way because the air pressure against the blade is what flexes them "flatter." At least in theory, they should still be pushing air. To each their own. Mike >>I would be inclined to think that these fans could actually inhibit >>cooling during high speed driving as the "flattened" fan blades would act [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Mike Nope, the higher the RPM, the greater deflection of air, almost like having a circle of plywood right in back of the radiator.... So much so, it could become a negative factor at higher rpms. "Silence" has a price... JT > Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > out" as if it's variable pitch. what mechanical properties do /you/ think > "flexibility" gives the fan? http://www.flex-a-lite.com/auto/html/7-blade-flex.html >> Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> > http://www.flex-a-lite.com/auto/html/7-blade-flex.html did you know that the outer extremity of a fan blade moves faster than the bit nearest the hub? apparently these guys don't since it's the same pitch for the whole blade!!! what a total p.o.s. >> http://www.flex-a-lite.com/auto/html/7-blade-flex.html > did you know that the outer extremity of a fan blade moves faster than the > bit nearest the hub? apparently these guys don't since it's the same > pitch for the whole blade!!! what a total p.o.s. You're right about the change in air speed and that the ideal pitch should vary along the blades like the pitch on an airplane propellor or a ship "screw." This isn't rocket science, though, it's just a radiator fan they are trying to improve a bit. Regular fans work and these fans work. Take your choice (I think you already did!) Mike >> The old belt driven fans changed to plastic blades because they could >> flatten out at higher speeds > > by "flatten out" do you mean a variable pitch fan blade? that's somewhat > exotic and rather expensive. what used them? I don't know whether they were ever used as OEM fans, but my motorhead brother was pretty fond of aftermarket "flex fans." If the plastic blade is mounted to the hub by the leading edge, it's a good bet it is a flex fan. If the blade is mounted by the whole root it is just another fan. Mike >>> The old belt driven fans changed to plastic blades because they could >>> flatten out at higher speeds [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > brother was pretty fond of aftermarket "flex fans." If the plastic blade is > mounted to the hub by the leading edge, it's a good bet it is a flex fan. interesting - i've never seen a fan like that. seems kind of bizarre to me since i can't see what would keep the blade pitched to improve airflow when it was supposed to be working, but hey... > If > the blade is mounted by the whole root it is just another fan. indeed. > Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > overheating just tooling along the highway without aftermarket assistance, > there's something wrong. and it's not the fan. Check my response to Mike, above. I was also running without the shroud underneath the engine, and while replacing it helped somewhat, it wasn't until I replaced the clutch that the problem disappeared. Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote: >> Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/ wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > replacing it helped somewhat, it wasn't until I replaced the clutch that > the problem disappeared. around town, sure. but not on the freeway. lack of shroud, insect debris blockage, kinked coolant pipe, slipping belt on coolant pump, out of spec thermostat - these all have much more effect at freeway speed. >> This is new to me... A fan attached to the crankshaft??? What is this >> vehicle? > > I may be showing my age...I'm not sure if it's actually on the > crankshaft...(I'm sure it's not...) How about the front of the water pump? Viscous fan clutches were very popular in the '80s. They worked pretty well when new, but the silicone tended to leak out over the years. They would become progressively less effective and the driver wouldn't know until the situation got really bad. Mike >>> This is new to me... A fan attached to the crankshaft??? What is this >>> vehicle? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Mike DING! DING! Mike wins the prize! Exactly what happened in my Supra. I have the records from the old owner. She spent $1100 traking down an overheating problem. The first year I had the car, the temp barely got over 90 degrees all summer. Plus, we did a timing belt and the car had all new coolant in it. It never overheated. Last summer, we had a lot of days over 90 degrees, and it was on these days it was most likely to overheat. I asked the guys in the Toyota forum and a former Service Rep gave me a method for checking the fan (basically, get the car up to temp, stop the engine and try to spin the fan...mine spun with no resistance at all.) New fan clutch, no overheating! I did notice the previous owner did not install a new clutch... On Apr 29, 7:41 pm, lewis...@gmail.com wrote: > Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Sounds like you need a new radiator to me.. I'm not so sure about the head gasket.. Maybe, but I still think your radiator is about shot. A leaky head gasket will not cause all the symtoms you have. IE: overheating... The only way a head gasket causes overheating is when it finally loses it's coolant.. If it's still fairly full when doing this, I doubt the gasket is the problem. Most of your problems sound like a bad radiator. Thats why it overheated in the first place I bet. MK > On Apr 29, 7:41 pm, lewis...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Thats why it overheated in the first place I bet. > MK A fairly common symptom of head gasket trouble is wild fluctuation of engine temp. I don't know why that is, but it's seen all the time. I rely pretty heavily on the shadetree test for head gasket trouble: with the engine cold, remove the radiator cap. Start the engine and pinch off the tube from the radiator neck to the reservoir. Place the palm of the other hand over the radiator neck for a few seconds. If you feel a steadily rising pressure or (worse) fluctuations as the engine turns, the head gasket is very likely bad. This test has some false negatives - the head gasket may not leak when cold idling - but I haven't seen a false positive. The most widely accepted test is a chemical test for combustion products in the coolant. I often focus my attention in overheating cases based on the way the system behaves. Bad radiators usually show up as a slow buildup of heat that never wants to go away. Air flow or water flow problems show up at idle but the temperature drops rapidly when the car gets moving; water flow problems return to normal within seconds while air flow problems take a minute or two. It really doesn't matter if the fans are running while driving; air flow should be fine then. I hate to say it, but I fear for your head gasket at this stage. Overheating while going down the road and cooling down when you pull over and idle make that a prime suspect. Mike > On Apr 29, 7:41 pm, lewis...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Thats why it overheated in the first place I bet. > MK bubbles in the coolant reduces it's heat carrying ability. SignatureJim Yanik jyanik at kua.net Radiator my be irreversibly clogged and need to be replaced. I havd to do it once after about 150K miles. |
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