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Car Forum / Honda Cars / June 2007'92 Civic DX Hatchback Idle dropout problem
I just had some major work done on my '92 Civic DX Hatchback (automatic transmission, A/C, NOT a VTEC, the regular engine) at my local Honda dealership. Car had been running well. Have ~85,000 miles (I'd don't drive much). Now I have a very frustrating idle problem (the engine randomly almost dies) that no one can figure out. Here's the story: 1. In May, the engine began sputtering occasionally at stoplights, especially when trying to accelerate from a stop. Led to a few close calls with oncoming traffic, as the engine almost died mid- intersection. 2. After this happened ~3 times over ~3 days, the engine just died, wouldn't restart (cranked OK), & had to be towed to Honda dealer. 3. Codes revealed a faulty Idle Air Control Valve (IACV), which was stuck shut. IACV was therefore replaced. 4. Also had other major maintenance performed (it was time anyway): 90,000 mile service, including Valve Clearance Adjustment, timing belt, water pump, new plugs & air filter. Now the trouble really began... 5. Car didn't perform well at highway speeds (hard to quantify, but engine just seemed louder & less powerful at high speeds, ~80 mph). ALSO, at idle, in gear, at a stop, idled roughly, and it seems like the motor is cutting off for a split second. Almost dies, then recovers. Seems to happen more when it is warmer out (~75-80 oF). Rarely happens if either the car is in Park/Neutral, or if the A/C is on, or if you're actually moving. 6. First the dealer's mechanics couldn't observe the idle problem, then didn't believe it was an issue, then asked if I was sure it wasn't happening before I brought the car in the first time, etc. They also said that the IACV had an "adjusting screw" that was improperly adjusted, and that it was now adj. properly. (Next time, I was told that the IACV does not have any adj. screw!!) Did NOT fix the idle problem. 7. Back again to dealer. Service manager is trying his best, and replaced the PCV valve and its hose. No change in idle problem. 8. Back again. Manager discovered that the valve clearance had been adj. too loose, and timing was 5 degrees retarded. Fixed the clearance, rechecked timing, idle speed, etc. Also cleaned out the throttle body (they said it had some carbon buildup). All this now seemed at last to improve the high speed driveability somewhat. Possible improvement in the idle problem (seems less frequent), but still not gone. 9. Now, the idle dropout happens like this: a. Car is idling, and fan comes on. This kicks up the idle speed a bit. b. Fan shuts off. After ~7 seconds, idle speed drops back down. c. After ~20-25 seconds more, engine drops out...idle speed for that split second makes like it is trying to go to zero. d. Cycle of a, b, c repeats (for as long as you're willing to sit and wait). The specific timing of the problem described #9 makes me think it is unlikely to be plugs, SP wires, rotor, cap, etc. (Wires & cap were replaced ~2 yrs ago (non-Honda).) Coolant-temperature related? Some other kind of sensor? What else could it be? A faulty, new IACV? Other things I've seen mentioned: coolant temp. sensor; Throttle Position Sensor, coil, igniter, SP-etc.. Sorry to be so long-winded, but figured I'd give you experts all the info I have. Desperate for help!! Thanks!!! <snip> get to the point - i'm not paid for this. 3 lines or less - what's the problem? > get to the point - i'm not paid for this. 3 lines or less - what's the problem? Idle drops out: a. Car is idling OK, fan comes on, idle speed increases a bit. b. Fan shuts off. After ~7 seconds, idle speed drops back down. c. After ~20-25 seconds more, engine drops out...idle speed for a split second goes to zero. d. a, b, c repeats endlessly >> get to the point - i'm not paid for this. 3 lines or less - what's the problem? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > split second goes to zero. > d. a, b, c repeats endlessly thank you. 1. check the coolant level in the radiator when cold - [never rely on the expansion bottle level to tell you because if there's an air leak, the level never changes.] 2. if the above is ok, check the idle control circuit. disconnect the i.a.c.v. when warm and see what happens to engine revs. if the engine dies, you need to set the idle correctly. and before you do that, you need to check everything else is set right like timing, valve lash, etc. when you've prepared everything else sufficiently, remove the iacv and check the filter screen is not clogged. carburettor cleaner and a q-tip work great for that. 3. check for error codes on the computer as well! a great thing to buy for your honda is the factory service manual from helminc.com. full diagnostic flowcharts for every system on the vehicle. > I just had some major work done on my '92 Civic DX Hatchback > (automatic transmission, A/C, NOT a VTEC, the regular engine) at my > local Honda dealership. <SNIP> > Sorry to be so long-winded, but figured I'd give you experts all the > info I have. > > Desperate for help!! Thanks!!! ------------------------------------ The dealer sounds like a dope. Fill the reservoir to =MAX= and check if the rad is full to the top. (this is in your owner's manual). If the coolant level drops next day, you had AIR in the system. It can screw up LOTS of things on all Hondas. Look at the adjustment slot on your upper distributor bolt and see if it's set near the center, or has somebody cranked it all the way to one end of the slot? If so, they probably got the Timing belt off by one tooth and tried to correct by changing the ignition timing. Report back. 'Curly' > motsco/Curly, Jim Beam: Check coolant, reservoir Radiator is full when engine is cold, reservoir ~1/2+ full. Did of course get coolant flush because of water pump repl. w/ T-belt service. Will a careful re-flush eliminate possible bubbles? > motsco/Curly: Check adjustment slot on your upper distributor bolt See about 3 mm of slot showing past the large washer. Gap is toward rear of engine, i.e. looks like bolt is toward front end of of range, but I can't quite tell how far to end of range (no personal experience). Do you think this is near end of range? Can also see old marking from washer visible on dist. case at rear of range. So, set wrong now, and possibly before as well? Should it be ~in the middle? If so, should I take it back to dealer and ask that they move T-belt by one tooth in correct direction, then re-do timing, idle adj.? Anything else? > Jim Beam: Check IACV when hot. Check codes. Haven't done the IACV check yet (will try tomorrow). Presumably dealer saw no other codes other than orig. IACV problem? I don't have code- checking equip. Thanks guys >> motsco/Curly, Jim Beam: Check coolant, reservoir > Radiator is full when engine is cold, reservoir ~1/2+ full. Did of > course get coolant flush because of water pump repl. w/ T-belt > service. Will a careful re-flush eliminate possible bubbles? no. the fact that you've recently done the timing belt leads me to suspect the belt's slipped a tooth. very common for the belt not to be tensioned right. google this group for procedure or check the book. >> motsco/Curly: Check adjustment slot on your upper distributor bolt > See about 3 mm of slot showing past the large washer. Gap is toward > rear of engine, i.e. looks like bolt is toward front end of of range, > but I can't quite tell how far to end of range (no personal > experience). bolt should be about the middle of the slot like curly says. see above. > Do you think this is near end of range? Can also see old > marking from washer visible on dist. case at rear of range. So, set > wrong now, and possibly before as well? Should it be ~in the middle? > If so, should I take it back to dealer and ask that they move T-belt > by one tooth in correct direction, then re-do timing, idle adj.? yes. > Anything else? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Thanks guys seriously consider finding another dealer to do this work. these guys don't seem like they know their business. Thanks very much, will press dealer to fix their mistakes, and then find a new dealer! Last thoughts/questions: Is it clear that the mis-set T-belt, and thus the mis-adj. distributor/timing, is the cause of the idle drop-out? or is it a contributing factor, along with possible air bubbles in coolant lines near IACV, or some other cause? I feel a bit like we set out to drain the swamp but are currently wrestling w/ the alligators! > Thanks very much, will press dealer to fix their mistakes, and then > find a new dealer! [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > coolant lines near IACV, or some other cause? I feel a bit like we set > out to drain the swamp but are currently wrestling w/ the alligators! ------------------------------------ It would be nice if you knew somebody handy enough to slip off the valve cover and confirm whether the TB is out one tooth. I can't say for sure how hard it is to check on your engine. The TB can be 'out' just because of carelesness when installing it, not necessarily because it's loose. Changing the angle of the distributor is the 'patch', and should have confirmed to the tech that he did the belt wrong. :-( As far as I know, the ignition timing should never need to be changed more than a degree or two over the life of the car, unless there's some 'tuning' going on. If you have access to a Haynes or Chilton's, the procedure for checking the TB alignment will be in there. Search at www.tegger.com to learn whether it's necessary to bleed any trapped air from your '92. As was mentioned, later models don't need it and their (reservoir) coolant level stays rock-steady summer and winter, hot or cold. 'Curly' > It would be nice if you knew somebody handy enough to slip off the valve > cover and confirm whether the TB is out one tooth. I can take off the valve cover no problem. Looked at the link you suggested and found this one -- http://timingbelt.soben.com/ -- that gave pictures from an Acura T-belt replacement. BUT, it's not clear to me just what one does/looks for to determine whether T-belt is off by one tooth. Could you please supply a bit more detail? I assume you take off the valve cover, turn engine (by hand?) until cylinder 1 (the one next to T-belt?) is at TDC (judged how?), then look at where belt lines up with some marking on case? Sounds like a quick job if you know what you're doing/looking for? Thanks! >> It would be nice if you knew somebody handy enough to slip off the valve >> cover and confirm whether the TB is out one tooth. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Thanks! That's pretty much it. The crank is turned *counterclockwise* by the bolt head (supposed to be retorqued after doing this but in practice it won't budge even when we desperately want it to) or by a strap wrench on the crank pulley until the TDC timing mark lines up. Note: most engines turn clockwise, Honda engines turn counterclockwise. Never turn the engine backward as the timing belt tension is on the wrong side and the belt might skip. Anyway, the cam gears should then be in the TDC position or exactly 180 degrees away from TDC. There are stamped markings or holes of various sorts for the various engines. Most of them are obvious enough to figure out, but a few are not so obvious. Any shop manual for your model, even Chilton's or Haynes, will have the details. Mike > disconnect the i.a.c.v. when warm and see what happens to engine revs. if the engine dies, you need to set the idle correctly. Indeed, engine dies immediately. Should it idle at all w/o IACV connected (if so, what extra thing does the IACV do?)? >> disconnect the i.a.c.v. when warm and see what happens to engine revs. if the engine > dies, you need to set the idle correctly. > > Indeed, engine dies immediately. Should it idle at all w/o IACV > connected (if so, what extra thing does the IACV do?)? when fully warm, it should idle a bit below normal, but not die. but before you adjust anything there, make sure it's not timing, ignition, etc. >>> disconnect the i.a.c.v. when warm and see what happens to engine revs. if the engine dies, you need to set the idle correctly. >> Indeed, engine dies immediately. Should it idle at all w/o IACV >> connected (if so, what extra thing does the IACV do?)? > when fully warm, it should idle a bit below normal, but not die. but > before you adjust anything there, make sure it's not timing, ignition, etc. OK, thanks, will twiddle the idle knob and try again, after I'm sure T- belt is OK. Got valve & top T-belt covers off. Can see UP marked on camshaft pully, and a line mark that looks like, if UP were up, would align w/ a little pointy thing on lower (plastic) cover. Mark & point should line up, then cams will all be at TDC if T-belt is OK, otherwise some cams will be off? Do I need to get the bottom cover off, to see the lower two T-belt pulleys? (I think doing so it beyond my skill: too many other pulleys, engine mount, etc there.) I guess what's confusing me is that the T-belt camshaft pulley is physically part of the camshaft, so how can it be anything but lined up (UP=up, mark=pointer, +/-TDC on cams)? I'm clearly missing something (those lower two pulleys??) >>>> disconnect the i.a.c.v. when warm and see what happens to engine revs. if the engine dies, you need to set the idle correctly. > >> Indeed, engine dies immediately. Should it idle at all w/o IACV [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > +/-TDC on cams)? I'm clearly missing something (those lower two > pulleys??) there's two sets of marks on the crank pulley - one [or 3 close together] for 18 degrees, the ignition timing mark, and one for tdc. it's the latter you need at the pointer when doing cam timing. for the cam pulley, there's two sets of marks. you need to check which is which for the ex, but one set should be parallel with the head top and "up" showing. the other gets pointed at a different mark on the head. it'll be one or the other. again, you really need the book on this. getting back to the idle, you should /not/ adjust it until you have everything else set right. >>>>> disconnect the i.a.c.v. when warm and see what happens to engine >>>>> revs. if the engine dies, you need to set the idle correctly. [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > getting back to the idle, you should /not/ adjust it until you have > everything else set right. and you should check belt tension since you have the cover off! Cam pulley is the one at top, right?, and crank pulley is down & back, where I can't really get at it w/o taking apart the engine mount, etc? (What's the third pulley for?) Tension seemed tight (hard to push belt w/ my finger in ~3 mm). > Cam pulley is the one at top, right?, and crank pulley is down & back, > where I can't really get at it w/o taking apart the engine mount, etc? > (What's the third pulley for?) Tension seemed tight (hard to push belt > w/ my finger in ~3 mm). dude, you /really/ need to buy the book!!! crank is at the bottom. easily accessed via the wheel well. leave mount alone unless removing belt. should be able to show more than 3mm of belt with the cover removed. OK! Wasted enough of all you guy's time, thanks. Will get the book and have a look. Thanks again!! Checked T-belt position on cam & crank pulleys. W/ cam pulley at its mark, crank is ~10 degrees past TDC (single mark for TDC, and 3 timing marks at 14, 16, 18 deg. BTDC). With crank at TDC, cam is ~1 tooth before its mark. Cam pulley has 38 teeth, i.e. ~9.5 deg./tooth. Thus, T-belt is off by one tooth. You would think when you pay professionals a good chunk of change to do the job right, they would! Have they no pride?? Now one of my 3 belts on the crank pulley is squeaking a bit. (I had to work the belts off to see the marks on the pulley.) I assume it can wait until the car goes back for the T-belt (& distributor, and coolant-reflush, and idle speed adj.), I hope tomorrow? > Checked T-belt position on cam & crank pulleys. W/ cam pulley at its > mark, crank is ~10 degrees past TDC (single mark for TDC, and 3 timing [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > can wait until the car goes back for the T-belt (& distributor, and > coolant-reflush, and idle speed adj.), I hope tomorrow? In their defense, it is a bit of a struggle to get the belt to go on right; the cam doesn't like to sit at TDC. (That's why so many of us were suspecting it!) But you're right - professionals should not only get it right, they should triple-check it is right before buttoning it up. Mike > Checked T-belt position on cam & crank pulleys. W/ cam pulley at its > mark, crank is ~10 degrees past TDC (single mark for TDC, and 3 timing [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > You would think when you pay professionals a good chunk of change to > do the job right, they would! Have they no pride?? One point I forgot to mention: having to readjust the ignition timing after timing belt change is a *huge* red flag pointing to getting the timing belt a tooth off. The engine runs terribly if not readjusted and badly if it is, but simply having to change the timing means the belt didn't go on the way it came off. Feh! Mike > One point I forgot to mention: having to readjust the ignition timing after > timing belt change is a *huge* red flag pointing to getting the timing belt > a tooth off. The engine runs terribly if not readjusted and badly if it is, > but simply having to change the timing means the belt didn't go on the way > it came off. Feh! That's the wierd thing. It idles a bit rough, I think, but someone who didn't know the car would likely think nothing of it. Then of course the idle dropout (clearly something new, something wrong). And lastly, the sense at high speeds that the car is really struggling. It used to cruise at 85 mph down the Mass Pike no problem. Now, it's clearly topping the engine out. I'm amazed that it runs at all with the valves opening/closing ~10 degrees before (after) they should! > Checked T-belt position on cam & crank pulleys. W/ cam pulley at its > mark, crank is ~10 degrees past TDC (single mark for TDC, and 3 timing [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > You would think when you pay professionals a good chunk of change to > do the job right, they would! Have they no pride?? usually just the apprentice. and i guarantee they never followed the honda service manual to the letter - which you absolutely must do. in this respect, you might be better off doing the job yourself now you have the lid off. anyway, congrats on persisting enough to get the diagnosis done! > Now one of my 3 belts on the crank pulley is squeaking a bit. (I had > to work the belts off to see the marks on the pulley.) I assume it > can wait until the car goes back for the T-belt (& distributor, and > coolant-reflush, and idle speed adj.), I hope tomorrow? after all this, you may not need the idle adjust done at all! add valve lash to the list of things to do as now's the time to do it with all the covers off. > after all this, you may not need the idle adjust done at all! add valve > lash to the list of things to do as now's the time to do it with all the > covers off. They did the valve clearance adjustment, twice! First time car seemed like it didn't just have tons of work done ---- felt even "older". After I insisted, they re-checked clearance, found it "way too loose", and corrected it, at which point the car is now, with much improved idle problem. The offset T-belt shouldn't affect valve clearance, should it? Or does the T-belt/timing need to be correct so that you know that the valve is closed/open the right amount at the right time? (Is valve lash is same as valve clearance?) >> after all this, you may not need the idle adjust done at all! add valve >> lash to the list of things to do as now's the time to do it with all the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > know that the valve is closed/open the right amount at the right time? > (Is valve lash is same as valve clearance?) cam timing affects performance big time. valve lash much less so, but still a factor. either way, judging by your experience with these guys, you should consider absorbing the extra cost and just take it to an independent honda specialist. continued ineptitude will cost you a good deal more in the long run. if you want to take it back to the same place to prove a point, /insist/ on having a senior mechanic do the work. insist on meeting them - before and after. > if you want to take it back to the same place to prove a point, /insist/ on having a senior mechanic do the work. > insist on meeting them - before and after. I'm a glutton for punishment, I guess. Back to Honda this morning, met w/ the sr. mech. He seems sharp (as wasn't the one who did the incorrect valve lash the 1st time). They tore it apart, and together we examined the timing marks. They actually did the T-belt right, which is a relief. The confusion is shown well here, http://www.cadvision.com/blanchas/54pontiac/honda.html ; you use the horiz. marks on the cam pulley for the 1.5L engine (which I have), and at the pointer for the 1.6L VTEC. Also, there's two white marks painted on the *inside* of the cam pulley, that line up w/ the cyl. head for the 1.5L. That settled, they're a bit at a loss as to why the distr. is set so far forward. But, will replace distr. head & rotor w/ genuine Honda, as they say they've had bad experiences w/ off-brand parts. IACV/idle stumble also clearly still bothers them. Coolant was indeed bled to remove bubbles. They're putting in a new thermostat. When I disconnected the IACV elec. conn., it should have generated an Check Engine code, but it didn't. Hmmm. They also are thinking that there could be a blockage inside the throttle body. Any more suggestions/ ideas RE: IACV/idle? Successful end to the story: Dealer replaced thermostat, distributor cap & rotor. One of those three completely fixed the idle dropout problem. |
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