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Car Forum / Honda Cars / July 2007Speaker-Eating dashboard?
My Mazda 626 seems to have an appetite for speakers. I have replaced the passenger's side front speaker for the third time a couple weeks ago, and already it's buzzing like a bee is trapped in it. The speakers installed are capable of MORE than the rated wattage of the JVC Cd player (~22 Watts per channel, speakers are 50W or more) All the other speakers work great, including the Driver's side dash replaced in January as a set with the one that went bad a couple weeks ago. There aren't any leaks, there doesn't appear to be any 'stray magentism' anywhere around, no obstructions or protrusions of any type into the speaker area. I'm out of 'inexpensive' speakers (the last one that blew was a Clarion, not the most expensive, but not a cheapo by any means...) Connections are tight. Usually audio problems don't throw me, but this one has me stumped. Any ideas? Find a cheap speaker, hook if up electrically but don't install it physically. Just extend the wires and leave it somewhere in the car to figure out whether it is related to the physical installation or a short from the radio. > My Mazda 626 seems to have an appetite for speakers. > I have replaced the passenger's side front speaker for the third time a [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Any ideas? > Find a cheap speaker, hook if up electrically but don't install it > physically. Just extend the wires and leave it somewhere in the car to > figure out whether it is related to the physical installation or a short > from the radio. All good suggestions! >> My Mazda 626 seems to have an appetite for speakers. I have replaced the >> passenger's side front speaker for the third time a couple weeks ago, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> >> Any ideas? >> Find a cheap speaker, hook if up electrically but don't install it >> physically. Just extend the wires and leave it somewhere in the car to >> figure out whether it is related to the physical installation or a short >> from the radio. > > All good suggestions! Except for one thing: A speaker without an enclosure will produce pretty much zero bass, which will tempt you to turn it up and fry it. Find a cardboard box about the size of a small bookshelf speaker. Seal it well with tape, cut a hole that's right for the speaker, and use speed clips over the edges of the hole for securing the speaker. >>> Find a cheap speaker, hook if up electrically but don't install it >>> physically. Just extend the wires and leave it somewhere in the car to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > with tape, cut a hole that's right for the speaker, and use speed clips > over the edges of the hole for securing the speaker. I have wooden 'test boxes' I use for testing speakers/radios. No Problem! Hachiroku wrote: > My Mazda 626 seems to have an appetite for speakers. > I have replaced the passenger's side front speaker for the third time a > couple weeks ago, and already it's buzzing like a bee is trapped in it. > The speakers installed are capable of MORE than the rated wattage of the > JVC Cd player (~22 Watts per channel, speakers are 50W or more) 50W continuous? I have some 2' tall floor speakers rated for 50W music power but only 1W continous (instructions said not to exceed 8V, peak-to-peak, for more than 2-3 minutes). > All the other speakers work great, including the Driver's side dash > replaced in January as a set with the one that went bad a couple weeks ago. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > not the most expensive, but not a cheapo by any means...) Connections are > tight. If you don't blast them at high power all day, about the only electrical thing that usually ruins speakers in a hurry is DC from the amplifier. Switch a digital voltage meter to read DC volts and see if there's more than about 0.1Vdc across the amp terminals (an analog meter won't work for this). Don't measure to chassis ground because I think that most car stereos now use two floating outputs (an easy way to get higher power without higher power supply voltage). Have you tried pressing the speaker cone to see that it moves in and out without binding? Some of my Ford factory speakers (base audio system) that scraped the magnet when moved also buzzed, but I had a Ford radio cause a buzz because of some power supply problem (I think it was the power supply that drove the LCD). > Have you tried pressing the speaker cone to see that it moves in and out > without binding? The last one I pulled worked flawlessly! I'll try the meter thing, but I'm also on my second head unit. I upgraded the one in the Supra and pulled that one for this car. On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 09:58:52 GMT, Hachiroku ???? <Trueno@AE86.gts> wrote: >The speakers installed are capable of MORE than the rated wattage of the >JVC Cd player (~22 Watts per channel, speakers are 50W or more) >All the other speakers work great, including the Driver's side dash >replaced in January as a set with the one that went bad a couple weeks ago. You need more power. A good rule of thumb is that the amp should be rated at 2 times the speaker rating. This prevents clipping which speakers apaprt. > On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 09:58:52 GMT, Hachiroku ???? <Trueno@AE86.gts> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > rated at 2 times the speaker rating. This prevents clipping which > speakers apaprt. you sure about that? it's true that distortion tears up speakers, and an underpowered amp can lead people to crank the volume up beyond clipping, but i've never heard it suggested that the amp be rated for more power than the speakers. >but i've never heard it suggested that the amp be rated for more power >than the speakers. Very, very common in the high-end and pro audio worlds. You get two bonuses. Headroom, which can do wonders for clarity, and no clipping which prevents your speakers from dealing with DC. There's not much that speakers hate more than DC, which happens to be 0 Hz. (drive it all the way in or out and hold it there!) except maybe water. <G> >> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 09:58:52 GMT, Hachiroku ???? <Trueno@AE86.gts> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > but i've never heard it suggested that the amp be rated for more power > than the speakers. Have you ever listened to a *continuous* 22 watts, let alone 50? You don't want to.... Driving a low-powered amp into clipping, yes. But clipping kills tweeters first, then mids and eventually it *could* kill the woofers. Overpowering a speaker usually kills the woofers first *IF* you can stand the level and the racket of the woofer cones overextending and having the coils hit the magnets. High amounts of DC voltage usually "cooks" the coils. Someone else's idea of putting in a "cheap as possible" speaker is a start, but since the dead speaker's mate is a known good speaker, use it instead. If it stays alive, you'll have to chalk this pair of failures up to Murphy. FWIW, I was a tech in a hi-end audio shop and we were known to do intentional speaker-killing at times.. under "controlled conditions" you know.. >>> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 09:58:52 GMT, Hachiroku ???? <Trueno@AE86.gts> >>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Have you ever listened to a *continuous* 22 watts, let alone 50? You don't > want to.... Shoot...have you ever listened to a continuous *ONE* watt?!?! % watts true RMS is enough to drive you...OUT of the car! > Driving a low-powered amp into clipping, yes. But clipping kills tweeters > first, then mids and eventually it *could* kill the woofers. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > instead. If it stays alive, you'll have to chalk this pair of failures up > to Murphy. This is my THIRD speaker in this position! > FWIW, I was a tech in a hi-end audio shop and we were known to do > intentional speaker-killing at times.. under "controlled conditions" you > know.. Oh Boy! Where do I sign up!?!?!?! I used to do testing for Underwriter's Laboratory certification at one place where I worked. We made OEM power supplies; one of our products was for a 'secret' project for IBM back in 1982... At any rate, I would drip water into the power supplies, throw shorts into various circuits, disable the safety circuits and THEN throw shorts into the circuits, throw the switching section into overload, etc etc. I had what looked like a motorcycle sheild in front of me to catch sparks and capacitor spew... Ah, how I long for the Good Ol' Days... ;) If the one side is failing, swap the good and bad speakers. does the bad speaker become good? and the good speaker turn bad? is the stereo properly grounded? > My Mazda 626 seems to have an appetite for speakers. > I have replaced the passenger's side front speaker for the third time a [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Any ideas? What size are these speakers? >> My Mazda 626 seems to have an appetite for speakers. I have replaced the >> passenger's side front speaker for the third time a couple weeks ago, [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> > What size are these speakers? 5" >>> My Mazda 626 seems to have an appetite for speakers. I have replaced the >>> passenger's side front speaker for the third time a couple weeks ago, [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > 5" In my situation it seemd to follow about the 3rd time my teen borrowed the car...every time. I'm sure you know that distortion will kill a speaker as quick as power. This one seemed to think the volume had to be on max for it to work at all. >>>> My Mazda 626 seems to have an appetite for speakers. I have replaced >>>> the passenger's side front speaker for the third time a couple weeks [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > as quick as power. This one seemed to think the volume had to be on max > for it to work at all. It doesn't?! ;) (He don't know me too well...) I have a JVC headunit in my Supra, powering a 100Wx4 channel amp, and 4 100W MB Quarts at each corner. Since the roof comes off the car, I wanted something I could hear over the road and wind noise. 3rd year and no problem! I rarely have problems with my installations. That's why this is so perplexing. But, I am a bass player, so I want to HEAR the bass. It's just odd that it's always this one speaker! The left front has been in there since I took the original pair out. I always replace with 4 ohm speakers so the balance is correct all the way around. >>>>> My Mazda 626 seems to have an appetite for speakers. I have replaced >>>>> the passenger's side front speaker for the third time a couple weeks [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > took the original pair out. I always replace with 4 ohm speakers so the > balance is correct all the way around. You're asking for something that's *just about* physically impossible from 5" speakers in imperfect enclosures (doors). Here's an experiment you might want to try, though. I have been told that Radio Shack sells a decibel meter that reasonably accurate. With the car's top off, and no Harley or 18 wheeler nearby to add noise, measure how many decibels of noise there are just driving down the road with the radio off. I think you'll find that it's pretty close to 100db, especially with the wind in certain directions relative to the car. To make enough clean, tight bass to overcome that noise if it existed in a bar, you'd want a lot more power than you have. You'd have larger speakers, and the enclosures would be designed for those speakers. I'm also a bass player, so don't debate this, OK? By the way, what's the brand and model of your car amp? > To make enough clean, tight bass to overcome that noise if it existed in a > bar, you'd want a lot more power than you have. You'd have larger > speakers, and the enclosures would be designed for those speakers. I'm > also a bass player, so don't debate this, OK? But...but...I get a MUCH better sound out of my Ampeg SVT 4-10" than I do out of my 2-15" Fender! I just have the Fender 'cause it weighs 50 LBS less! > By the way, what's the brand and model of your car amp? Genuine Optimus! They were blowing them out when RadShack got out of the car stereo business. I got it for $30 NIB... Yeah, not the best. But it's not the Supra that's chewing the speakers, it's the Mazda. The Supra sounds *GREAT*! (MB Quarts all around help, and these ones DIDN'T separate from the frames! ;) >> To make enough clean, tight bass to overcome that noise if it existed in >> a [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > it's the Mazda. The Supra sounds *GREAT*! (MB Quarts all around help, and > these ones DIDN'T separate from the frames! ;) OK. Save me from having to read back through the clutter again. In the Mazda, what is powering the speakers? Brand & model of amp, please. >> Yeah, not the best. But it's not the Supra that's chewing the speakers, >> it's the Mazda. The Supra sounds *GREAT*! (MB Quarts all around help, >> and these ones DIDN'T separate from the frames! ;) >> > OK. Save me from having to read back through the clutter again. In the > Mazda, what is powering the speakers? Brand & model of amp, please. Just a plain old JVC head unit rated at 50W/channel (Effectively, 22W RMS) Speakers rated for 50W I can't remember when I changed the speakers, because before that I was running an AIWA CD player. So, I should change the speakers and see if it still happens. Problem is, it did it with the original pair in the car with a Kenwood Cassette deck. I changed the deck and the speakers at the same time, and then changed the speakers twice more. I'm running out of low-end speakers, and ain't putting a set of Quarts in there! >>> Yeah, not the best. But it's not the Supra that's chewing the speakers, >>> it's the Mazda. The Supra sounds *GREAT*! (MB Quarts all around help, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > then changed the speakers twice more. I'm running out of low-end speakers, > and ain't putting a set of Quarts in there! There's your answer. Your Kenwood is frying the speakers. I don't care WHAT the claimed wattage is, or how much power the speakers can handle. You don't have enough power to run them safely. >>>> Yeah, not the best. But it's not the Supra that's chewing the >>>> speakers, it's the Mazda. The Supra sounds *GREAT*! (MB Quarts all [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > WHAT the claimed wattage is, or how much power the speakers can handle. > You don't have enough power to run them safely. I pulled the Kenwood and installed the AIWA. THe left dash speaker was buzzing off the bat. I replaced it with another set of known good speakers, and the left dash speaker started buzzing after about 10-12 weeks. I replaced the speakers as a paor with new Clarions. After 10-12 weeks, the new Clarion left dash speaker started buzzing. I replaced the AIWA with a JVC, and replaced the left dash speaker with another known good speaker. This time it lasted about 3 weeks... On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 02:03:27 GMT, Hachiroku ???? <Trueno@AE86.gts> wrote: >I pulled the Kenwood and installed the AIWA. THe left dash speaker was >buzzing off the bat. I replaced it with another set of known good [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >AIWA with a JVC, and replaced the left dash speaker with another known >good speaker. This time it lasted about 3 weeks... Are you running through the factory speaker wiring from the radio to the front speakers? There could be a power cross or a ground in the harness, and sticking a DC bias on speakers will kill them pronto. --<< Bruce >>-- >>I pulled the Kenwood and installed the AIWA. THe left dash speaker was >>buzzing off the bat. I replaced it with another set of known good [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > --<< Bruce >>-- Yes, it is the factory wiring, but it appears to have no common grounding (I thought that went out with Bell-Bottoms...) Everything looks good. I also have a set of Infinity 6x9's in the rear deck, and they are performing perfectly. It's just that one speaker in the dash... >>>I pulled the Kenwood and installed the AIWA. THe left dash speaker was >>>buzzing off the bat. I replaced it with another set of known good [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > deck, and they are performing perfectly. It's just that one speaker in the > dash... The floating ground question is a good one. It would cost you what - eleven cents and 20 minutes to run a pair of speaker wires? Other points: - You mentioned that one of the head units had 22 watts RMS per channel. For 4 speakers, two of which are probably eating lots of power (the rears) and two of which are not in proper enclosers (dash speakers), that's a recipe for disaster. - Dash speakers never were a good idea. They still are not a good idea and never will be a good idea. They are not truly enclosed, so they are not damped by a mass of air behind them. There are ways to filter out bass only to those speakers, which effectively makes them into tweeters. Some people stick capacitors on the speakers, but I never did that and can't help with details. We used to use crossovers followed by two amplifiers, using combos like 50 per channel to the rears and 20 per channel to the fronts. Do you understand that general concept? - Here's a mantra for you to repeat, for as many days or months it takes to believe it: There is no head unit with enough power for some car systems. "System" is defined as the possible assortment of speakers in a given car (without cutting new holes), combined with the listening habits of the particular person. If it were possible to build decent power into a package as small as a head unit, you'd see home stereos that small and light. Start with new wiring, and then begin chanting the rest of the information until you're ready to digest more information. > We used to use crossovers followed by two amplifiers, > using combos like 50 per channel to the rears and 20 per channel to the > fronts. Do you understand that general concept? COOL!!! I did that with my Corolla GTS: ran a line to the rear of the car, and then used an electronic crossover, and then ran the outputs from that to separate amps; 60WPC for the bass, 40WPC for the mids and 30WPC for the tweets. The fronts I used just off the shelf RadShack X-overs split to the speakers. I had 55WPC running the fronts. It sounded SWEET! > My Mazda 626 seems to have an appetite for speakers. > I have replaced the passenger's side front speaker for the third time a > couple weeks ago, and already it's buzzing like a bee is trapped in it. Any chance that the speaker mounting area could be distorted, which might be pulling the speaker frame out of alignment and causing the cone voice coil to rub on the magnet gap?? Maybe some old accident damage? Just a thought. Dave >> My Mazda 626 seems to have an appetite for speakers. >> I have replaced the passenger's side front speaker for the third time a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Dave If they're pressed metal frames and you overtorque the mounting screws they almost always warp. >> My Mazda 626 seems to have an appetite for speakers. I have replaced the >> passenger's side front speaker for the third time a couple weeks ago, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Dave You know, the car was in an accident at some point, but all the doors open and close like they're supposed to, so I didn't think of it... |
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