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Car Forum / Honda Cars / August 2007100% Electric SUV From Phoenix Motorcars Recharges In 10 Minutes
Read about it at http://Muvy.org > Read about it at http://Muvy.org Spam, spam, spam.... These sensationalist articles don't help, either. This subject was kicked around in the Yahoo! Toyota-Prius forum a couple months ago and the big hitch was the amount of power required to do a ten minute charge. IIRC it was around 250kW - in a league with entire shopping malls and colleges. If you're going to spam us, try getting your feet on the ground first. Mike > These sensationalist articles don't help, either. This subject was kicked > around in the Yahoo! Toyota-Prius forum a couple months ago and the big > hitch was the amount of power required to do a ten minute charge. IIRC it > was around 250kW - in a league with entire shopping malls and colleges. Actually, that doesn't sound that unreasonable. 250 KW for ten minutes is 41.7 KWH, about $5 worth of electricity. I leave it to someone else with a much wilder imagination than I have to figure out where to get a battery that will charge significantly in ten minutes, much less a whole pack of them.  Signature"Justice Thomas pointed out that the Constitution does not waive the rights of the individual because an elite has decided its motives are pure." -- Paul Greenberg >> These sensationalist articles don't help, either. This subject was kicked >> around in the Yahoo! Toyota-Prius forum a couple months ago and the big [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Actually, that doesn't sound that unreasonable. 250 KW for ten minutes is > 41.7 KWH, about $5 worth of electricity. All we have to do is upgrade our homes' electric service to 1000A and we will be in great shape! >>> These sensationalist articles don't help, either. This subject was kicked >>> around in the Yahoo! Toyota-Prius forum a couple months ago and the big [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >All we have to do is upgrade our homes' electric service to 1000A and we >will be in great shape! Actually, you will need more than 2000A and even more if you want to run your refrigerator at the same time. Of course the 10 minute charge sounds more like a "gas station" mode. If the "gas station" wants to charge three of these vehicles at once, it will need 6000+A service. Figure they will charge you about at least $15 for that $5 worth of electricity to pay for the infrastructure and provide a profit. The real question is, how far can you drive on that $15 fill up? I would be surprised if it is any farther than you can get on $15 worth of gasoline. >>>> These sensationalist articles don't help, either. This subject was >>>> kicked [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > up? I would be surprised if it is any farther than you can get on $15 > worth of gasoline. What? Your house doesn't have 1000 Amp. service? I thought that was the bare minimum. ROFL!!!! Seriously, most houses up here have either 100 or 200 amp service. Back in the 50's, 75 amp was the norm. >Actually, you will need more than 2000A and even more if you want to >run your refrigerator at the same time. Of course the 10 minute [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >up? I would be surprised if it is any farther than you can get on $15 >worth of gasoline. And how about the power grid in neighborhood to feed this service??? What many do not realize is that a gallon of gas has about 50 HP in it or just under 40KW. A car is about 30% efficent (give or take) meaning that about 13 KW from every gallon is convertered to motion. If your car uses 5 gallons to go 100 miles that mean you have "used about 75 KW on energy at the ground. A eletric car is about 80% efficent so you need to store about 95KW in same vehicle to get same range. Problem with that is two fold. First it takes a LOT of battery to store that much energy which adds a lot of weight and then there is charging it because charging is not 100% efficent either. Figure on 120 to 130KW of energy being used to charge a 95K pack (losses in batteries and charger) so 120KW a t 10 cents a KW (though many places charge even more) is 12 bucks verse about 15 for gas and not worth it. Also range will decrease in winter because waste heat from a gas motor heats car and figure on 3 to 6KW or more per hour to heat car. Then to charge it with 100 amp service and running nothing esle in your house it is going to take about 6 hours to charge minimum. People want to beleive that there is this great splution out there and that a car is being kept from them that they can simply plug into a wall socket and dirve because they have no concept of the energy needed or the amount of it in one gallon of gas. Just like they want you to beleive we can grow our way out of gas problems with grain alchol even though it has only 60% of the energy in gas and increases CO2 emissions by 50% too. Plus even if all the grain/corn crop in use was turned to fuel it would only make about 1/3 of daily needs with none left for food. (we use about 800,000,000 gallons of fuel a day and you cannot grow your way out of that problem) ----------------- TheSnoMan.com >> Actually, you will need more than 2000A and even more if you want to >> run your refrigerator at the same time. Of course the 10 minute [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > our way out of gas problems with grain alchol even though it has only > 60% of the energy in gas indeed. i find it amazing that lawyers are happy to bring "ripoff" lawsuits for real, but nevertheless minor, issues like gas temperature differences, http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/12/hot_fuel.html but ignore the HUGE ripoff of ethanol!!! makes you wonder what they teach at law schools. > and increases CO2 emissions by 50% too. Plus > even if all the grain/corn crop in use was turned to fuel it would [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > ----------------- > TheSnoMan.com >>> Actually, you will need more than 2000A and even more if you want to >>> run your refrigerator at the same time. Of course the 10 minute [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > but ignore the HUGE ripoff of ethanol!!! makes you wonder what they teach > at law schools. Law school 401: How to f.ck your client in the a.s so bad they need a colostomy. Law school 402: How to the above, with legal impunity. Signature------ Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message: Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican. Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way* to Materially Improve Your Family's Life. The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive! entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie, all d'numbuhs >> and increases CO2 emissions by 50% too. Plus >> even if all the grain/corn crop in use was turned to fuel it would [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> ----------------- >> TheSnoMan.com snip > indeed. i find it amazing that lawyers are happy to bring "ripoff" > lawsuits for real, but nevertheless minor, issues like gas temperature [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > but ignore the HUGE ripoff of ethanol!!! makes you wonder what they > teach at law schools. Oh gawd... Don't get me started on the ethenol scam. Of course if you have stock in Archer Daniels, you might be sitting in fat city. Ethanol..... Not only does it cost more to produce a gallon than it delivers in BTUs, diversion of corn production has caused grocery prices to skyrocket. And you can bet your bottom bippy that the family farms ain't cashin' in on the bonanza. <sigh> JT > Oh gawd... Don't get me started on the ethenol scam. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > to skyrocket. And you can bet your bottom bippy that the family farms > ain't cashin' in on the bonanza. Unfortunately you're correct. Last year Consumers Reports had a very good article on this subject. They said: The Ethenol cost more than gasoline for the energy obtained and your IC engine will produce only about 75% of the power it does with gasoline. The vehicle manufacturers love it because they get a fuel mileage boast if their vehicles can burn it. Since there are very few Ethenol stations you may have to waste fuel getting to one for a fill. Ethenol is all about reducing oil imports from the Middle East. >> Oh gawd... Don't get me started on the ethenol scam. >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >The vehicle manufacturers love it because they get a fuel mileage boast >if their vehicles can burn it. All of this is true, BUT the good news is that adding ethanol to gas gives you an effective octane boost, without adding lead or MTBE. So don't think of ethanol as a gasoline substitute, think of it as a substitute for MTBE or tetraethyl lead. And it's a WHOLE LOT friendlier to the environment and the people working with it than either. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." >>The Ethenol cost more than gasoline for the energy obtained and your IC >>engine will produce only about 75% of the power it does with gasoline. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >to the environment and the people working with it than either. >--scott Yes, you're right about ethanol boosting the octane of gasoline. But when used to boost octane, the mix is 10% ethanol - 90% gasoline. That is the ratio used in most of the country. ADM, Cargil and the US farmer are pushing for 85% ethanol, called E85. That ratio will use more corn than was planted this year. It will cause food shortages in our country as well as the rest of the world. More acreage will be dedicated to corn for ethanol and less for food crops. Not only will the cost of your corn flakes go up but beef, pork, chicken, flour, bread and all dairy products will sky rocket in price. As Herbert Einstein (Alberts older brother) once said, "Buddy, you ain't seen nothing yet!" --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 000758-3, 07/22/2007 Tested on: 7/23/2007 3:28:32 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com >>>The Ethenol cost more than gasoline for the energy obtained and your IC >>>engine will produce only about 75% of the power it does with gasoline. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >the cost of your corn flakes go up but beef, pork, chicken, flour, >bread and all dairy products will sky rocket in price. The effect is already being seen. The price of your corn flakes will probably go unnoticed in your family budget, but to poor people south of the border, it is a serious problem. After NAFTA went into effect, Latin American corn farmers were driven out of business by subsidized, large-scale US agribusiness. Sure, the tortillas were cheaper, but the money left the community and everyone suffered. Now poor have gotten poorer and the tortillas cost more than ever. >>> Oh gawd... Don't get me started on the ethenol scam. >>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >to the environment and the people working with it than either. >--scott That is the best argument for the amount that has been in gas for years (in the Midwest). It also promotes complete combustion for cleaner exhaust. Not sure how much is really required for those purposes, though. >>> Oh gawd... Don't get me started on the ethenol scam. >>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > All of this is true, BUT the good news is that adding ethanol to gas gives > you an effective octane boost, without adding lead or MTBE. so what? decent gasoline has sufficient octane properties too. > So don't think of ethanol as a gasoline substitute, think of it as a > substitute for MTBE or tetraethyl lead. And it's a WHOLE LOT friendlier > to the environment and the people working with it than either. the brazilians don't think so, and they have a lot more experience than us. they have serious respiratory illness down there caused by ethanol combustion products. mtbe only became used because a certain govenor's wife was on the board of a certain oilco whose refinery process produced large amounts of this otherwise unwanted product. it was a stroke of oilco genius to label toxic waste as "oxygenate" and get it mandated as an additive through the boardroom/bedroom connection. >> All of this is true, BUT the good news is that adding ethanol to gas gives >> you an effective octane boost, without adding lead or MTBE. > >so what? decent gasoline has sufficient octane properties too. No, sadly it doesn't. Pure gasoline (well, as pure as gasoline gets, which isn't very pure) is much too prone to predetonation to use in a modern engine. For high performance reciprocating aircraft engines back in WWII, the required octane rating was so high that even lead didn't do the job, and they wound up mixing gasoline with very, very light distillates (casing head). The stuff is a nightmare to work with, and evaporates much faster than normal gasoline. >> So don't think of ethanol as a gasoline substitute, think of it as a >> substitute for MTBE or tetraethyl lead. And it's a WHOLE LOT friendlier [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >us. they have serious respiratory illness down there caused by ethanol >combustion products. Sure, and we have plenty of lead problems. >mtbe only became used because a certain govenor's wife was on the board >of a certain oilco whose refinery process produced large amounts of this >otherwise unwanted product. it was a stroke of oilco genius to label >toxic waste as "oxygenate" and get it mandated as an additive through >the boardroom/bedroom connection. Perhaps, but it works, and lead turned out to have long-term toxicity issues. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." >>the brazilians don't think so, and they have a lot more experience than >>us. they have serious respiratory illness down there caused by ethanol [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Perhaps, but it works, and lead turned out to have long-term toxicity issues. It sounds like you're saying that we're well rid of lead because of the toxicity, but proud to have ethanol because of its toxicity. Signature"Justice Thomas pointed out that the Constitution does not waive the rights of the individual because an elite has decided its motives are pure." -- Paul Greenberg >>> All of this is true, BUT the good news is that adding ethanol to gas gives >>> you an effective octane boost, without adding lead or MTBE. >> so what? decent gasoline has sufficient octane properties too. > > No, sadly it doesn't. yes it does. but oilcos want to be able to sell the crap mixed in with the good stuff, so they need to mix in octane modifiers. > Pure gasoline (well, as pure as gasoline gets, which > isn't very pure) is much too prone to predetonation to use in a modern > engine. it depends on the content. see above. > For high performance reciprocating aircraft engines back in WWII, the > required octane rating was so high that even lead didn't do the job, and > they wound up mixing gasoline with very, very light distillates (casing > head). The stuff is a nightmare to work with, and evaporates much faster > than normal gasoline. ww2 aero engines are very different from modern auto engines. they had very poor thermal control, poor combustion chamber design, poor mixture control, etc. if design is bad, sure, you need to monkey with the fuel content. but if the design is good and control is good, problem all but disappears. >>> So don't think of ethanol as a gasoline substitute, think of it as a >>> substitute for MTBE or tetraethyl lead. And it's a WHOLE LOT friendlier [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Perhaps, but it works, "works" relative to what? it's not the only oxygenate out there. and it poisons the sub-surface water aquifers like nobody's business. and is persistent. > and lead turned out to have long-term toxicity issues. lead salts are relatively stable and not very soluble. >> Oh gawd... Don't get me started on the ethenol scam. >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >The vehicle manufacturers love it because they get a fuel mileage boast >if their vehicles can burn it. That is actually an outrageous fraud. Chrysler was selling flex fuel (gas or E85) minivans 10 years ago. Lots of them. The people who bought them didn't even know, unless they read and understood the little blurb in the owner's manual. It wouldn't have mattered anyway because there were only a handful of places selling E85 in the whole country. But Chrysler gut a huge CAFE credit on these minivans (IIRC, it was like the minivans were rated at 40 mpg) which they could use to offset the lousy gas mileage of their land barges and monster pickups. >Since there are very few Ethenol stations you may have to waste fuel >getting to one for a fill. >Ethenol is all about reducing oil imports from the Middle East. I thought it was all about subsidizing ADM. >> Oh gawd... Don't get me started on the ethenol scam. >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > getting to one for a fill. > Ethenol is all about reducing oil imports from the Middle East. no its not. it's about reducing overall mpg's so the oilco's make more money /and/ supporting giant agricos into the bargain. >>> Oh gawd... Don't get me started on the ethenol scam. >>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > no its not. it's about reducing overall mpg's so the oilco's make more > money /and/ supporting giant agricos into the bargain. Most people fail to pick up on the fact that no matter who produces ethanol, it still is big oil that gets to distribute and deliver it. BOHICA!!! JT >>>> Oh gawd... Don't get me started on the ethenol scam. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > JT and that's /after/ we subsidize the agricos to produce it and subsidize the oilcos to use it! we are the sheep. we are simply here to be fleeced. >>Oh gawd... Don't get me started on the ethenol scam. >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > getting to one for a fill. > Ethenol is all about reducing oil imports from the Middle East. Actually, we import a relatively small amount of oil from the middle east. Most of our imports come from Venezuela, Canada and Mexico. JT >>> Oh gawd... Don't get me started on the ethenol scam. >>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > JT Most of the Canadian and South American oil is fuel oil. We get quite a bit of our gasoline from oil from the MidEast. > Most of the Canadian and South American oil is fuel oil. We get quite a > bit of our gasoline from oil from the MidEast. Do you have a link for that? All I have is for crude and total petroleum, although the crude from Canada is still more than total petroleum from Saudi Arabia. http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imp orts/current/import.html If that link wraps, it is also http://tinyurl.com/7ldt It is amazing how little oil we get from the Middle East beyond Saudi Arabia. Mike >> Most of the Canadian and South American oil is fuel oil. We get quite a >> bit of our gasoline from oil from the MidEast. >> >Do you have a link for that? All I have is for crude and total petroleum, Look for a breakdown between "sweet light crude" and heavy crude oils. >although the crude from Canada is still more than total petroleum from Saudi >Arabia. We still get crude oil from Pennsylvania... but not a whole lot of it, and it is very, very heavy. Still useful for making lubricating products and some kinds of plastics, but it would take way too much cracking to be useful as fuel. >It is amazing how little oil we get from the Middle East beyond Saudi >Arabia. This is mostly due to political concerns rather than technical ones. But everybody likes the mideast oil because it is light and low sulfur so it requires little processing to make fuels. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." >> Most of the Canadian and South American oil is fuel oil. We get quite a >> bit of our gasoline from oil from the MidEast. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imp orts/current/import.html > If that link wraps, it is also http://tinyurl.com/7ldt If you want to prevent a link from wrapping, just put angle braces around it: <http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imp orts/current/import.html> Jeff > It is amazing how little oil we get from the Middle East beyond Saudi > Arabia. > > Mike > If you want to prevent a link from wrapping, just put angle braces around > it: > > <http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imp orts/current/import.html> > > Jeff I didn't know that! Thanks. >>Actually, you will need more than 2000A and even more if you want to >>run your refrigerator at the same time. Of course the 10 minute [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >----------------- >TheSnoMan.com Not to mention the fact that it takes more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than that gallon contains. You have to consider all inputs needed to produce that gallon when computing the cost, fertilizer (from natural gas), fuel used by the tractor that pulls the planter, fuel used by the combine that harvests the corn, fuel used by the trucks to transport the corn, heat used to sterilize the mash, heat used to distill the ethanol, fuel used to transport the ethanol. In short, it cost about 1 1/2 gallons of ethanol to produce 1 gallon of ethanol. Not to mention the fact that my breakfast corn flakes will triple in price. Jack --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 000758-3, 07/22/2007 Tested on: 7/22/2007 11:33:27 AM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com <...> > Not to mention the fact that it takes more energy to produce a gallon > of ethanol than that gallon contains. Of course. But that energy comes form the sun and is converted to sugar and then ethanol by different organisms. > You have to consider all inputs > needed to produce that gallon when computing the cost, fertilizer [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > short, it cost about 1 1/2 gallons of ethanol to produce 1 gallon of > ethanol. It depends on the process used. Today's processes used in the US take about 1 gallon of gasoline to produce about the 1.15 gallons of ethanol. So it is about break even. But, in Brazil, the processes are more efficient and that it takes less than a gallon of fuel to make 1.15 gal of ethanol, so there is a net decrease in the use of fossil fuel. > Not to mention the fact that my breakfast corn flakes will triple in > price. Boo hoo! Jeff > Jack > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software. > http://www.avast.com Ummmm ok I like this logic, but consider that if they weren't growing it in the first place, they would be using 0 gallons of fuel. Not break even if you ask me... ><...> > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software. >> http://www.avast.com And, don't forget that a gallon of ethanol has substantially less energy than a gallon of gas/oil, to boot. Signature------ Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message: Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican. Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way* to Materially Improve Your Family's Life. The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive! entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie, all d'numbuhs > <...> > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software. >> http://www.avast.com >>>Actually, you will need more than 2000A and even more if you want to >>>run your refrigerator at the same time. Of course the 10 minute [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > Not to mention the fact that my breakfast corn flakes will triple in > price. There is only 8 cents worth of corn in your box of flakes. any big price rise is from gouging and mostly transportation costs. KB > Jack > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software. > http://www.avast.com SignatureThunder Snake #9 "Protect" your rights or "lose" them. <...> > And how about the power grid in neighborhood to feed this service??? > What many do not realize is that a gallon of gas has about 50 HP in it > or just under 40KW. Those are units of power, not energy. Power is energy divided by time. Get your units right. A car is about 30% efficent (give or take) meaning > that about 13 KW from every gallon is convertered to motion. If your > car uses 5 gallons to go 100 miles that mean you have "used about 75 [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > ----------------- > TheSnoMan.com |
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