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Car Forum / Honda Cars / August 2007

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90 Accord main relay

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Gene Wagenbreth - 27 Jul 2007 17:59 GMT
My thanks to this news group and several websites that decribe the
main relay problem. I had an intermittent problem with flashing
sports light and check engine light for 5 years. It was getting bad
enough that I was going to donate the car. Dealer wanted to
put in a new transmission. A mechanic said he replaced the main
rely. I finally took out the main relay myself and found bad solder
joints exactly as pictured on several web sites. Bought a new one
for $40 (too timid to try fixing solder myself). Problem is solved.

Thanks again.

G
Jim Yanik - 28 Jul 2007 03:04 GMT
> My thanks to this news group and several websites that decribe the
> main relay problem. I had an intermittent problem with flashing
> sports light and check engine light for 5 years. It was getting bad
> enough that I was going to donate the car. Dealer wanted to
> put in a new transmission. A mechanic said he replaced the main
> rely.

Did he charge you for it?

> I finally took out the main relay myself and found bad solder
> joints exactly as pictured on several web sites. Bought a new one
> for $40 (too timid to try fixing solder myself). Problem is solved.

Until the new relay gets the same problem.

I believe that people who have resoldered their original relay have had no
failures since,but a new relay may develop the same fractures.

(makes me wonder if the relay maker used the right solder alloy for the
job???)

Now if you still have the old relay,you could find a friend who knows how
to solder and has the tools to re-do the old relay and keep it as a spare.

Signature

Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

jim beam - 28 Jul 2007 03:34 GMT
>> My thanks to this news group and several websites that decribe the
>> main relay problem. I had an intermittent problem with flashing
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> I believe that people who have resoldered their original relay have had no
> failures since,but a new relay may develop the same fractures.

i think that's just a matter of time.  i doubt anyone that's re-soldered
has had that relay in operation for an additional 10+ years.

> (makes me wonder if the relay maker used the right solder alloy for the
> job???)

no, parts are subject to physical stress.  a big no-no for solder
joints.  bad design - depending on manufacturer objective!

> Now if you still have the old relay,you could find a friend who knows how
> to solder and has the tools to re-do the old relay and keep it as a spare.

indeed - need a higher wattage iron for that relay - some big copper
parts in there that will suck the heat out of a lesser iron and make
crappy joints.
Jim Yanik - 28 Jul 2007 04:16 GMT
>>> My thanks to this news group and several websites that decribe the
>>> main relay problem. I had an intermittent problem with flashing
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> re-soldered has had that relay in operation for an additional 10+
> years.

IIRC,some people here have had MR failures 6-7 yrs after purchase.

The MR on my 94 Integra GSR lasted longer than before it was re-soldered.
(and failed about at 7 yrs)

Too bad that car got stolen,stripped and torched last month. :-(

Now I have a 2003 Sentra SE-R Spec V.

>> (makes me wonder if the relay maker used the right solder alloy for
>> the job???)
>
> no, parts are subject to physical stress.  a big no-no for solder
> joints.  bad design - depending on manufacturer objective!

I've been reading over on sci.electronics.design about the many different
solder alloys manufacturers use on wave-soldering lines;some will fracture
more easily than others,some may crystalize sooner.(and then fracture)
The new lead-free solders are even worse;lots of NEW consumer products with
fractured solder joints. Some solder alloys are not as ductile as others.

>> Now if you still have the old relay,you could find a friend who knows
>> how to solder and has the tools to re-do the old relay and keep it as
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> parts in there that will suck the heat out of a lesser iron and make
> crappy joints.

Yeah,I used a 60 W iron on mine.

Signature

Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

jim beam - 28 Jul 2007 04:23 GMT
>>>> My thanks to this news group and several websites that decribe the
>>>> main relay problem. I had an intermittent problem with flashing
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Too bad that car got stolen,stripped and torched last month. :-(

sad news indeed.

> Now I have a 2003 Sentra SE-R Spec V.

how does that compare?

>>> (makes me wonder if the relay maker used the right solder alloy for
>>> the job???)
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> The new lead-free solders are even worse;lots of NEW consumer products with
> fractured solder joints. Some solder alloys are not as ductile as others.

true enough.  eutectic tin/lead for me.

>>> Now if you still have the old relay,you could find a friend who knows
>>> how to solder and has the tools to re-do the old relay and keep it as
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Yeah,I used a 60 W iron on mine.

perfect!
Jim Yanik - 28 Jul 2007 19:03 GMT
>> Now I have a 2003 Sentra SE-R Spec V.
>
> how does that compare?

It's got plenty of power(rated 175 HP -before mods),tho I miss the
hatchback and fold down rear seats of the Integra.One of the [previous
owners installed headers,cold air intake,short throw shifter,cat-back
exhaust(a tad noisy for me)and slightly lower springs/shocks.So,it handles
well,but rides a bit stiff.It has 17" rims and 215/45 WR17 tires.6 speed
manny tranny,and limited-slip diff. I really haven't wrung it out yet.
It's hard to keep it to the speed limit!

I would have gotten another Integra GS-R *IF* I had a garage to keep it
safe.... you can install all sorts of alarms and protections,but they still
will break in and tear the car up trying to take it,and then steal
important pieces like the ECU,seats,etc.

Apt.complexes are just mini-shopping malls for Midnite Auto thieves.
At least the Spec V has RFID chipped keys.

Signature

Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Eric - 29 Jul 2007 13:33 GMT
> At least the Spec V has RFID chipped keys.

This article may be of interest.

> How a keyless car gets stolen isn't exactly a state secret; much of the
> required knowledge is Basic Encryption 101. The authors of the Johns
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> sequence and were soon able to gain entrance to the target car and start
> it.

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3513_7-6516433.html?tag=txt&tag=nl.e501
jim beam - 29 Jul 2007 14:13 GMT
>> At least the Spec V has RFID chipped keys.
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3513_7-6516433.html?tag=txt&tag=nl.e501

post that to seth on the "Honda Pilot EXL 2007 - remote start" thread
from july 14.
Seth - 30 Jul 2007 00:47 GMT
>>> At least the Spec V has RFID chipped keys.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> post that to seth on the "Honda Pilot EXL 2007 - remote start" thread from
> july 14.

Why post it to me?  You do know that the exploit being discussed above has
nothing to do with a remote starter as they don't use an RFID
challenge/response signaling system, don't you?

To clone a remote starter remote control signal you would have to be
scanning/reading the code while the button is repeatedly pressed a number of
times till the scanner could figure out the algorithm used for the code
hopping.  They don't transmit when the receive a challenge signal.

If you want to be paranoid about the article mentioned above, then the way
to protect oneself is to have their stock Honda (or any other brand) key
stored in a lead lined key case when walking around with it in their pocket.
The car alarm, remote starter, keyless entry unit, to be cloned would
require first getting your hands on the actual FOB, in which case you don't
need to clone it as you have the original.

All that aside, I'm guessing the "post that to seth on the "Honda Pilot EXL
2007 - remote start" thread from july 14." was more an attempt at being
obnoxious than anything else.  I know I never said the system was
invulnerable, just not a high-risk threat.  Having one's head or house
destroyed by a piece of falling debris is also possible, but again, not
likely and therefore I'm not losing any sleep worrying about it.
Coincidently, neither my home owners insurance, car insurance or life
insurance has any clause excluding space debris or remote starters.  If they
thought it was a high risk possibility you better believe they would have a
clause and an additional cost rider as a result to make more money off the
customer.
jim beam - 30 Jul 2007 03:26 GMT
>>>> At least the Spec V has RFID chipped keys.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
> would have a clause and an additional cost rider as a result to make
> more money off the customer.

seth, with respect, you're welcome to justify the remote starters you
sell any way you want.  but in terms of how the key [and replication
system] works, you don't understand and are therefore propagating
misinformation.  that's not to say you haven't read the marketing blurb
and can repeat it, but in terms of mechanism, you're still unclear.

it's a challenge/response mechanism - just like you have with computer
network authentication.  on startup, ecu signals for code with token,
key hashes with it's own unique code that the ecu has been programmed to
recognize, then transmits it back.  if the token has been hashed
correctly, the ecu will arm the ignition system.  all an outsider has to
do to break in is, well, follow the procedure spelled out in the
article.  the remote starter performs challenge/response just like the key.

are you welcome to have on in your own vehicle?  sure.  but please don't
say they're impossible to hack because they're not.  just like the key
is not.  the remote starter makes vehicle theft easier because there's a
"key" permanently attached to the vehicle.  as i said at the start, some
people do this stuff for the technical challenge.  hence the article.
which i didn't write.
Seth - 30 Jul 2007 03:44 GMT
>>>>> At least the Spec V has RFID chipped keys.
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 62 lines]
> seth, with respect, you're welcome to justify the remote starters you sell
> any way you want.

Haven't sold them in years.

>  but in terms of how the key [and replication system] works, you don't
> understand and are therefore propagating misinformation.  that's not to
> say you haven't read the marketing blurb and can repeat it, but in terms
> of mechanism, you're still unclear.

The key (Honda key from factory) is challenge/response.  I didn't say
otherwise.  The FOB that controls the remote starter is not.  It is purely
1-way, rolling code (also called code hopping).

> it's a challenge/response mechanism - just like you have with computer
> network authentication.  on startup, ecu signals for code with token, key
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> do to break in is, well, follow the procedure spelled out in the article.
> the remote starter performs challenge/response just like the key.

Actually not the same.  It (the remote starter RFID over-ride module) is
wired direct into the lines that the RFID receiver uses to feed the vehicle
ECU.

> are you welcome to have on in your own vehicle?  sure.  but please don't
> say they're impossible to hack because they're not.

You need to work on your reading comprehension.  Please show me where I said
they were impossible to hack.  I said it is a small risk due to the
complexity of doing it vs. otehr easier methods of stealing ones car.  Big
difference.  Re-read what I wrote and you will see that.

 just like the key
> is not.  the remote starter makes vehicle theft easier because there's a
> "key" permanently attached to the vehicle.
>  as i said at the start, some people do this stuff for the technical
> challenge.  hence the article. which i didn't write.
jim beam - 30 Jul 2007 04:07 GMT
>>>>>> At least the Spec V has RFID chipped keys.
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 76 lines]
> otherwise.  The FOB that controls the remote starter is not.  It is
> purely 1-way, rolling code (also called code hopping).

so is the honda key - never sends the same code twice.  the point is,
you can /predict/ what the next code will be if you have a few samples
from which to establish the pattern.

>> it's a challenge/response mechanism - just like you have with computer
>> network authentication.  on startup, ecu signals for code with token,
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> wired direct into the lines that the RFID receiver uses to feed the
> vehicle ECU.

it /is/ the same - the ecu still has to challenge and then compare the
hash on the response.

>> are you welcome to have on in your own vehicle?  sure.  but please
>> don't say they're impossible to hack because they're not.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> complexity of doing it vs. otehr easier methods of stealing ones car.  
> Big difference.  Re-read what I wrote and you will see that.

apart from problems with engine wear caused by habitual use of remote
starters, i mentioned security, a point on which you've taken great
offense for reasons i still don't understand.  and you continued arguing
against that point regardless of the facts, finally resorting to what
amounts to "well, if it /does/ get stolen, it's not excluded from your
insurance, so hopefully you're ok".

fact: if you have the gear and the knowledge, and a laptop is not
exactly an uncommon item, electronic theft is a good deal easier than
mechanical.  and remote starters mean the driver doesn't need to be
present or challenged.

end of story.

>  just like the key
>> is not.  the remote starter makes vehicle theft easier because there's
>> a "key" permanently attached to the vehicle.
>>  as i said at the start, some people do this stuff for the technical
>> challenge.  hence the article. which i didn't write.
jim beam - 28 Jul 2007 03:36 GMT
> My thanks to this news group and several websites that decribe the
> main relay problem. I had an intermittent problem with flashing
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> G

i second that.  personally, i prefer to replace, but soldering
/definitely/ revives a sick honda most admirably.
TE Chea - 09 Aug 2007 17:46 GMT
| found bad solder
| joints exactly as pictured on several web sites.
My '90 accord 's main relay ( made by Mitsuba ) has always
been fine, now 85k+ km.

| Bought a new one for $40
Sold in msia @ M$85 ~= US$24.28
 
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