oh thats funny, a vw thats reliable =)

I repeat what I've already said: you have made a statement without the
backing of knowledge. Why did you feel the need to insert a prejudice
here? What you wrote is as true as "...we know that they have weapons of
mass destruction."

This is utter crap, of which you are full.

It's your turn to do some research into the performance goals of Hyundai
and how those goals are being realized. The company did make some poor
cars during the 80s, if I recall correctly. This is no longer true. The
history of some automakers has shown cycles of alternating poor and good
quality. Although I have owned excellent Chrysler cars from the good
years, I would not want one of their newer products. Hyundai has been
making rather decent cars of late, which is no surprise because they
have been working diligently on their quality.

You really should perhaps buy or drive one or more recent Hyundais
before issuing prououncements like this. Go talk with a few Hyundai
owners yourself. In other words: get some experience before making
pronouncements. Do some research -- it's not hard.

Or, just _Go get your hands on a recent Hyundai and drive it._

You should also get some experience concerning the autos you mentioned.
"Refinement" is a vague term. In terms of reliability, I'd say that
Hyundais have surpassed VW and Cadillac: a slam-dunk. In cost of
ownership, Hyundai has done something unusual: they put the drain plug
back on the torque converter, thereby saving the car owner about $75 for
each transmission fluid change. Touches like this reveal a lot about how
the manufacturer regards the people who give them their money. (What do
you drive? Do you have a transmission drain plug?)

My Sonata is certainly as "refined" as any Cadillac. It's got so much
automation that I worry that some computerized geegaw might fail and
interfere with something important. Unfortunately, I trust the Korean
parts more than I do their American equivalents.

Based upon my experience and mechanical knowledge (note: "experience and
knowledge") I'd say that Hyundai has almost caught up with Toyota in
dependability and engineering. Achieving this parity is, in fact,
Hyundai's stated goal. As far as I've been able to ascertain, Toyota has
surpassed every other car maker in terms of reliability. Cadillac and VW
don't come close. Subaru occupies an almost-unique position in terms of
practical body designs, but can suffer somewhat in maintenance costs due
to unusual mechanical assemblies that require dealer servicing.  The top
two models from both Hyundai and Kia are, in my opinion, very refined in
terms of human and mechanical engineering -- not perfect, but quite
livable. Styling, too, is what's current (although I have an instant gut
dislike of virtually all current cars). My only serious human
engineering complaints about my 2000 Sonata are that the steering wheel
obstructs my view of the speedometer; the center console contour is
dreadful -- things slide off it. And the rear of the car's , elegant
appearance is achieved at the cost of usable trunk space. Sure looks
mighty refined, though.

The word "cheap" implies low quality. That's not my experience with a
number of Korean products. These cars provide unsurpassed value: bang
for the buck. I'd say that overall, my experience with Korean
engineering has been of design that's close to the Japanese in
excellence of performance. In terms of ease of repair, nobody can touch
Japanese engineers in making products that are difficult (and expensive)
to fix (note: this is a generalization based on consumer electronics).
However, let's say by comparison, the extremely high costs of
maintaining a Ford Aerostar are a direct result of designing obstructed
access into the product, proving that we've learned the worst of what
the Japanese designers had to offer. This is compounded by engineering
blunders: things like premature, expensive head gasket failure (shared
with other Ford products that use the same engines).

These issues are very complex, and not suitable to flippant one-liners
of judgment. My expectations of my Hyundai, in fact, are as high as they
are for any automobile I'd want to own.

Making generalizations like this show a lack of knowledge and
understanding. You know, most of us will agree that Yugos were lousy
cars. Yet, I've run into a couple of guys who -based on their personal
experience- have had outstanding luck with them (they work on their own
cars). To begin with, Yugos were simply Fiats assembled in the Balkans.
So, they share parts and service data. The design was as "refined" as
Fiat; workmanship was, overall, even worse. They're just motorized
hockey pucks, but can be just great for getting around town and fitting
into small parking spots. But if you're handy with a wrench and like to
keep as much money as possible (and don't want to drive on a long trip),
hey, here's your car: a Yugo.

Richard

Here is what I wrote in response to another ng message regarding Hyundai
longevity:

"My 97 Tiburon has just passed the 250,000 mile mark and is still
running strong. It uses about a quart of oil every 1000 miles, but I
don't consider that excessive for a car with this many miles on it. I
bought the car new so I know what has been repaired over the years.
During its' in-warranty period, the throttle position sensor was out of
spec which caused a couple visits to the dealer. Also, the clutch master
cylinder went out at about 45,000 miles and was replaced by the dealer.
The first "major" repair (that I had to pay for) was replacing the
alternator at 170,000 miles. The only other major repair I had to
contend with was a failed clutch throw-out bearing at 230,000 miles. As
amazing as it sounds, when I dropped the transmission and removed the
clutch there was virtually no wear to the disk or pressure plate, but I
replaced it all anyway. I have never before owned a car that is as
reliable as my Tiburon. I have a spare engine sitting in my garage (a
2000cc from a '99 Elantra with 43,000 miles on it) in anticipation of
the day when this power plant finally does give up, but at this point,
it doesn't seem like that will be any time soon. "
    Before you put down Hyundai's as being "cheap and lacking refinement"
get your damn facts straight!

Well, Eastwardbound...

In posts to other groups you pretend to be a devout religious
(although incredibly intolerant) individual, who in fact posted thusly
"Rudeness is a crime." -- Yet you blow in here and insult the cars of
choice for almost all the posters here.  Overwhelmingly, we think that
Hyundai cars are super, and a steal for the money.  I'm driving a 1989
Sonata (the first year they imported them to the U.S) with 308,000
miles on it and I'm going to tow an enclosed trailer 2500 miles with
it next month.  BTW, the 1989-1991 Sonatas were built in Canada, not
Korea.

Harry

The most troublesome car I ever owned was a VW Rabbit.  My two
previous cars before my present Sonata V6 GLS were Cadillacs.  Both of
the Cadillacs had reliability problems.  As for my Sonata, I can only
say that after several years of ownership I have absolutely no
buyer;'s remorse nor would I have any reservations towards buying
another new one.

Old_Timer