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Car Forum / Hyundai Cars / February 2008What to do to a new Elantra?
This sounds odd but humor me. I bought an '07 Elantra. Just out of curiosity, what things would you do to a new car to make it easier to work on later? Up until my last car I tended to own older used cars, and I hated working on them because bolts were frequently frozen in place, everything was rusted together, etc. For example, if I can get the time, I'd love to take my brakes apart and use anti-seize compound anywhere that's appropriate. Hopefully things will come apart and go together that much more easily when the time comes to actually do the work. (Note, I said anti-seize and not grease, and I plan on tightening things to their proper torque. I want them to come apart on command, not while driving.) Are there plugs/connectors on the back of the foglights that could corrode? This is rhetorical, I'll check it myself. But I"ve seen enough dead aftermarket ones that if there is a connector there some dielectric grease may keep the corrosion away for a little longer. Again, it probably sounds like I'm being a little too anal/proactive/possibly ineffective, but what things do you hate about working older cars that could be prevented? Ben "Richard Dreyfuss" <jquimby@hotmail.com> wrote in message > Again, it probably sounds like I'm being a little too > anal/proactive/possibly ineffective, Yes > but what things do you hate about > working older cars that could be prevented? These days, just about nothing. Last time I changed a bulb it already had the dielectric grease on it. Years ago, I'd agree with you. I remember being at my brother's house one morning and he took the battery out to clean and paint the battery tray. I came back that evening and he had the entire front end of the car apart to prime and pain the underside. Bumper, fenders, cowlings, etc. It was a '69 Impala they was his daily driver until he bought a 2003 Grand Prix. He also owned 15 other cars, but they were not driven much. (from 1928 Model A, three 66 Mustangs, '55 Ford Convertible, etc) They don't build 'em like the used to. > This sounds odd but humor me. > I bought an '07 Elantra. Just out of curiosity, what things would you [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > anal/proactive/possibly ineffective, but what things do you hate about > working older cars that could be prevented? Most modern cars use sealed electrical connectors that seldom give trouble and many even have dielectric grease in them from the factory. I also put grease on exposed bolts and nuts that I think I may need to remove some day. I also put grease on the exposed part of the lug studs (if they don't have the full cover lug nuts as is more common today) so that the nuts come off easier when I next rotate tires. I apply Vaseline to the battery terminals. There really isn't much to do on more cars and trucks nowadays. Matt > I also put grease on the exposed part of the lug studs > (if they don't have the full cover lug nuts as is more common today) so > that the nuts come off easier when I next rotate tires. You should NEVER put grease on lugs, as it will result in them being over-torqued. The specified torque setting for lugs are for DRY lugs. Greasing reduces friction and when tightened to the recommended torque, there will be too much tension on the lug, creating a risk of breakage. >> I also put grease on the exposed part of the lug studs (if they don't >> have the full cover lug nuts as is more common today) so that the nuts [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Greasing reduces friction and when tightened to the recommended torque, > there will be too much tension on the lug, creating a risk of breakage. No kidding. That is why I only put grease on the threads that are exposed (as I clearly stated above) after the nuts are torqued. If the nuts are the "acorn" style and fully cover the studs, then no need for grease at all. Matt >>> I also put grease on the exposed part of the lug studs (if they don't >>> have the full cover lug nuts as is more common today) so that the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > No kidding. That is why I only put grease on the threads that are > exposed (as I clearly stated above) after the nuts are torqued. And when you back the nuts off, you end up with grease on their threads. Do you degrease them before reinstalling them? >>>> I also put grease on the exposed part of the lug studs (if they >>>> don't have the full cover lug nuts as is more common today) so that [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > And when you back the nuts off, you end up with grease on their threads. > Do you degrease them before reinstalling them? Yes, to some degree, but I'm not too worried about it. The torque tables have a fair bit of margin built into them and I don't have much residual lubricant on the threads. I'm much farther away from yielding the stud than are the monkeys at many garages that use an impact wrench to install the lug nuts and tighten them so hard it flows the metal on the rim chamfer. Also, I'm a licensed professional engineer and know a little bit about fasteners, material properties and torque. Matt > Yes, to some degree, but I'm not too worried about it. The torque tables > have a fair bit of margin built into them and I don't have much residual [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Matt Doe the "anti-seize" some places (Wal-Mart, for instance) insist on putting on have a similar effect? If it does, should they be reducing the torque to some extent? BTW: I watch them like a hawk, and pre-mark the destination location for the wheels with a sharpie on the wheel. The can't seem to follow instructions regarding cross-forward, but they are cheap, and fast. >> Yes, to some degree, but I'm not too worried about it. The torque tables >> have a fair bit of margin built into them and I don't have much residual [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > location for the wheels with a sharpie on the wheel. The can't seem to > follow instructions regarding cross-forward, but they are cheap, and fast. If you look at the chart at the link that Matt provided, you'll see that anti-seize is the worst thing you can put on wheel studs, as it dramatically reduces friction and will result in too much tension in the studs. >> Yes, to some degree, but I'm not too worried about it. The torque tables >> have a fair bit of margin built into them and I don't have much residual [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > location for the wheels with a sharpie on the wheel. The can't seem to > follow instructions regarding cross-forward, but they are cheap, and fast. I don't know what the lubrication properties are of all of the anti-seize compounds, but the one I use (Permatex) clearly advertises that it is an anti-seize lubricant, however, I've never seem instructions to change the spark plug torque due to the use of anti-seize. I don't use it on lug nuts so I don't know the effect there, but I suspect it would be similar to using standard grease. It is desirable that the lug studs and nuts be clean and dry when using the factory torque values, however, I'll err on clean and slightly greasy/oily as opposed to rusty with threads that are rounded off due to rust and keep applying grease to the part of the stud that is exposed beyond the lug nut. I wouldn't trust my wheel rotations to any shop that refuses to use a manually operated torque wrench. Proper torque values require that inertial effects be eliminated and that can't be done with air operated tools. Don't believe for a second that a "torque stick" will give the save value of lug stud tension as will a manually torqued lug nut. Matt MW> .... It is desirable that the lug studs and nuts be clean and dry when MW> using the factory torque values, however, I'll err on clean and MW> slightly greasy/oily as opposed to rusty with threads that are rounded MW> off due to rust and keep applying grease to the part of the stud that MW> is exposed beyond the lug nut. MW> I wouldn't trust my wheel rotations to any shop that refuses to use a MW> manually operated torque wrench. Proper torque values require that MW> inertial effects be eliminated and that can't be done with air MW> operated tools. Don't believe for a second that a "torque stick" will MW> give the save value of lug stud tension as will a manually torqued lug MW> nut. Agreed 100% with all of the above. I have stopped using places that don't torque nuts properly including those only using the torque sticks. Best Regards Wayne Moses <wayne.moses@comcast.net> Thu, 03 Jan 2008 08:48:01 -0600 MW> Also, I'm a licensed professional engineer and know a little bit about MW> fasteners, material properties and torque. Uh oh .. I was waiting to see when that was going to crop up in this thread. ;-) I too am a licenced PE and have been following this discussion with some interest and must say that we must agree to disagree. I agree in most part with Brian's viewpoint. Torque specifications always imply clean dry unlubricated threads. What amount of grease is 'lubricated' is subjective and we can have this discussion till the cows come home. I think we can all agree that if the studs are 'wiped clean' with a shop rag (varying degrees of 'greasy', light assumed) then no real problem regarding over-torqing. OTOH if I foolishly apply a dab of grease to the studs then torque the nuts the tension in the bolt shank and the shear in the thread roots will be greater than the manufacturer intended. None of us know how close we would be to failure or how much margin is in the specification. I seem to recall the simple torque-tension formula T = KDP where K is a constant related to friction at the mating surfaces, D is root diameter of the shank and P is the developed tension. As we can easily see, decreasing the friction given the same applied torque will result in increased tension. I personally choose to have clean dry 'unlubricated' lugs on all my cars in all road conditions (salty included), and to use a toque wrench, and my wheels have never fallen off nor have the nuts been hard to remove. Needless to say the nuts have not backed off either. YMMV. I changed the subject of this thread to one more appropriate. Best Regards Wayne Moses <wayne.moses@comcast.net> Wed, 02 Jan 2008 07:22:08 -0600 > MW> Also, I'm a licensed professional engineer and know a little bit about > MW> fasteners, material properties and torque. > > Uh oh .. I was waiting to see when that was going to crop up in this > thread. ;-) This thread has been dead for a week. Try to keep up next time. > I too am a licenced PE and have been following this discussion with some > interest and must say that we must agree to disagree. Is licenced anything like licensed? Which state or province? > I agree in most part with Brian's viewpoint. > > Torque specifications always imply clean dry unlubricated threads. What > amount of grease is 'lubricated' is subjective and we can have this > discussion till the cows come home. They don't imply that at all. Most tables specify if the values therein apply to dry fasteners, plated fasteners, or fasteners that are lubricated with any number of different lubricants from motor oil to dry lubricants. > I think we can all agree that if the studs are 'wiped clean' with a shop > rag (varying degrees of 'greasy', light assumed) then no real problem [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > wheels have never fallen off nor have the nuts been hard to remove. > Needless to say the nuts have not backed off either. I use grease on the exposed studs on my cars after properly torquing the lug nuts and have never had the wheels fall off, nuts that are hard to remove or any rust or deterioration of the fasteners and threads. If you drive a car in an area with winter and road salt and don't have fully covered lug nuts, then you WILL have rusted lug nuts and the exposed lug studs will rust as will. Unprotected steel simply will not tolerate salt-laden moisture for any length of time without surface damage. And damaged thread surfaces will not longer torque properly. Matt > They don't imply that at all. Most tables specify if the values therein > apply to dry fasteners, plated fasteners, or fasteners that are lubricated > with any number of different lubricants from motor oil to dry lubricants. Do they then, also specify what the defintion of "dry" is? Do they specify an acceptable amount of corrosion? Do they reference studs that have already been turned on several time versus brand new studs? I'm not arguing with you Matt - I'm agreeing with you. I believe too much attention has been focused on "book" material, while ignoring the real world of studs.  Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net >> They don't imply that at all. Most tables specify if the values therein >> apply to dry fasteners, plated fasteners, or fasteners that are lubricated [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > with you Matt - I'm agreeing with you. I believe too much attention has > been focused on "book" material, while ignoring the real world of studs. Most mean "new" fastener threads when they say "clean and dry" and that is the problem in the real world and the reason I apply grease to my exposed studs AFTER I torque the nuts properly. This keeps the threads in as nearly new condition as I possibly can in the PA/NY winters in which I drive. Matt > Most mean "new" fastener threads when they say "clean and dry" and that is > the problem in the real world and the reason I apply grease to my exposed > studs AFTER I torque the nuts properly. This keeps the threads in as > nearly new condition as I possibly can in the PA/NY winters in which I > drive. That's pretty much what I was getting at Matt. The effects of friction on torque work both ways. Too little (owing to grease) have one adverse effect on torque readings, while more friction (as expected from not new fasteners) will likewise have a similar effect, although in the opposite direction. Advocates that suggest addressing one side of that issue by pointing out that lubricants affect torque values don't address the other side of that value line, which is that stud in normal use display an equal disassociation from the theoretical perfect stud. Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net >> Most mean "new" fastener threads when they say "clean and dry" and that is >> the problem in the real world and the reason I apply grease to my exposed [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > value line, which is that stud in normal use display an equal disassociation > from the theoretical perfect stud. Mike, you explained my point better than I did. This is exactly what I meant. I have yet to find a reference to support this, but I did find one that supports my earlier assertion that most engineers prefer properly lubricated fasteners rather than dry fasteners as the variability in bolt tension achieved is less. Maybe others disagree, but even with their problems, I still consider NASA a pretty reputable source with respect to things technical. Look at page 3-6 and note that the variability is reduced substantially with lubricated vs. dry fasteners. Matt snebulos.mit.edu/projects/reference/NASA-Generic/NSTS_08307_RevA.pdf MM> Do they then, also specify what the defintion of "dry" is? Do they MM> specify an acceptable amount of corrosion? Do they reference studs MM> that have already been turned on several time versus brand new studs? Good points indeed. I believe I made a similar point also in my post - there are no absolutes, no matter how many times some dogmatic posters try to force then POV down our throats. Best Regards Wayne Moses <wayne.moses@comcast.net> Fri, 04 Jan 2008 20:44:58 -0600 > MM> Do they then, also specify what the defintion of "dry" is? Do they > MM> specify an acceptable amount of corrosion? Do they reference studs [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > there are no absolutes, no matter how many times some dogmatic posters try > to force then POV down our throats. I just knew there was another great mind out there Wayne. Us great thinkers have to stick together... Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net > MM> Do they then, also specify what the defintion of "dry" is? Do they > MM> specify an acceptable amount of corrosion? Do they reference studs [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > there are no absolutes, no matter how many times some dogmatic posters try > to force then POV down our throats. Yes, very true. However, it is pretty widely accepted in the engineering community that threads with rust, spalling, or other surface damage will not achieve a reliable amount of tension when torque is used as the sole measure of fastener tension. Using a lubricant lessens the chance of such thread damage as does my practice of using grease to keep road salt and moisture off of my lug studs. Obviously, the average garage and motorist can't be counted on to properly lubricate lug stud threads, therefore the auto makers provide "clean and dry" torque values and just accept the risk of thread damage over time. If I lived in an arid region, then I would not use any thread protection at all as it would be unnecessary. In PA and NY where road salt is heavily used for at least 4 months of the year, exposed lug stud threads simply will not survive many years without some protection. I tend to keep my vehicles a long time (my K1500 pickup is a 1994 and thus 14 years old), and you simply can't keep the threads "clean and dry" in my area without some form of protection applied to them. My Chevy has pretty tight fitting plastic center covers in the allow wheels and these keep the studs pretty clean, but they still get moisture from condensation if nothing else. A little grease used properly keeps the studs like new even after 14 years, 100,000+ miles and at least 10 tire rotations, plus 14 wheel removals for annual state inspections. I've seen cars that are half the age of my truck and have lug studs where the threads are virtually rust away on the first 1/8" of so of the stud and the damage often extends past where the threads enter the lug nuts. Matt Hi, I drive 2005 tiburon. I live in NY. What kind of grease do you use on the studs to protect them? or is any kind of grease fine? what exactly do you guys mean buy dry and clean? I've read that the lugs should be torqued to 80ft/lbs. I've been doing this and have had no problems. Torque the lugs often will lead to damage? Thats not good seeing as how i want to rotate my tires every 3,000 miles to help them last longer then 12,000 miles. -- Message posted using http://www.talkaboutautos.com/group/alt.autos.hyundai/ More information at http://www.talkaboutautos.com/faq.html > Hi, I drive 2005 tiburon. I live in NY. What kind of grease do you use on > the studs to protect them? or is any kind of grease fine? what exactly do [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > rotate my tires every 3,000 miles to help them last longer then 12,000 > miles. I use either wheel bearing grease or plain old Vaseline. Be clear in that I apply the grease only to the exposed part of the stud AFTER the lug nut has been torqued properly. Clean and dry means just that. Use a solvent to wipe down the lug stud (brake cleaner works quite well for this) and then let it dry before you torque the lug nuts. Now, I personally don't do this, but then I've torqued fasteners for 35 years and I've got a pretty good feel for what is enough so I don't worry about a little residual grease on the threads. However, I would not recommend that anyone else do anything other than follow the manufacturer's recommendations and they pretty much always specify dry torque values for lug nuts. I think that is nuts, but that is another story entirely... Matt >> Hi, I drive 2005 tiburon. I live in NY. What kind of grease do you use on >> the studs to protect them? or is any kind of grease fine? what exactly do [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >Matt I had my car at a tire shop recently. I specifically requested that they torque the lug nuts by hand and a torque wrench rather than the air wrench. They complied but acted as if this was a very unusual request. Old_Timer "paxfaux" <jcc05@omig.state.ny.us> wrote in message > Thats not good seeing as how i want to > rotate my tires every 3,000 miles to help them last longer then 12,000 > miles. You only get 12k out of a set of tires? Do you get many traffic tickets? The guys at the local tire shope tell me you can't get a tire to fit my wheels (17''x7.5'') that will last longer then 12,000 - 15,000 miles. And from my experience, that is true. My father has a chrysler 300 with 18'' wheels and his tires lasted about 14,000 so there must be something to it. Matt, the lug nut sits pretty tight agains the wheel, but the studs could be exposed behind the wheel? Is that where you use the vasaline? Is it worth doing in the summer months as well? -- Message posted using http://www.talkaboutautos.com/group/alt.autos.hyundai/ More information at http://www.talkaboutautos.com/faq.html > The guys at the local tire shope tell me you can't get a tire to fit my > wheels (17''x7.5'') that will last longer then 12,000 - 15,000 miles. And [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > be exposed behind the wheel? Is that where you use the vasaline? Is it > worth doing in the summer months as well? There is no way I know of to get behind the wheel and that generally isn't a big problem in any event. If your lug stud is about flush with the nut, then I'd just smear a thin film over the end of the stud and the groove where the threads start so that water can't follow the threads. No, probably not necessary in the summer unless you live in a very humid area or near the ocean. Matt Hello paxfaux, p> The guys at the local tire shope tell me you can't get a tire to fit p> my wheels (17''x7.5'') that will last longer then 12,000 - 15,000 p> miles. And from my experience, that is true. ???! I have a Tiburon that has 17" x 7.5" wheels (I believe) and it has the factory 215 x 45 x 17 Michelins on it. The car has over 23,000 miles on it and the tires have a ways to go yet before they wear out. I don't normally peel my tires but I corner pretty aggressively from time to time. I also rotate them every 7500 miles or so. I expect to get at least 30,000 from them if not more. So the guys at the tire shop are wrong. Regards, Wayne Moses Houston, Texa If you say so. I had the Pilots on for at least 22,000 myself but they should have been changed long before that. by the time i changed them they were almost down to the steel. You can say they are wrong but the tires still ware out by 15,000. I'm talking about the penny test, there is still plenty of visible tread at 15,000 but its still time for new tires. I don't "peel out" either. -- Message posted using http://www.talkaboutautos.com/group/alt.autos.hyundai/ More information at http://www.talkaboutautos.com/faq.html The 18" Bridgestones on my 07 Santa Fe now have 16K miles on them and show very little wear. I usually get at least 50K miles from a set of tires. Maybe the roads you drive on are paved with broken glass or else you burn rubber at every start. >> Uh oh .. I was waiting to see when that was going to crop up in this >> thread. ;-) MW> This thread has been dead for a week. Try to keep up next time. Wasn't dead when I found the time to drop by. Besides you being a licensed engineer surely is not dead nor is the fact that it seemed to not matter to those with viewpoints other than yours. Personally I prefer to contribute when I can and I resist the temptation to tell people what to do. :-) ! MW> Is licenced anything like licensed? Which state or province? Does the answer to either question matter? I will answer the second - New Brunswick and Ontario. Best Regards Wayne Moses <wayne.moses@comcast.net> Fri, 04 Jan 2008 20:35:56 -0600 > >> Uh oh .. I was waiting to see when that was going to crop up in this > >> thread. ;-) [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Personally I prefer to contribute when I can and I resist the temptation to > tell people what to do. I don't mind offering advice when I have advice to offer. I believe I do with respect to the original question about what steps to take to ensure that fasteners on a car don't rust in place. > MW> Is licenced anything like licensed? Which state or province? > > Does the answer to either question matter? Sure. When I see someone who claims to be an engineer, I like to know they are legitimate and I tend to look them up to be sure. I was not able to find your name listed so I was simply confirming. Also, when I find an educated person that can't spell a simple word like license, it makes me suspicious also. However, I found that even this web site prominently misspells the word in one of its headers! :-) http://www.engineerscanada.ca/e/imm_incanada_1.cfm > I will answer the second - New Brunswick and Ontario. Do they have an online license verification registry? Most US states now provide this service, but I haven't found a site yet for provinces in Canada. Regards, Matt MW> Also, when I find an educated person that can't spell a simple word MW> like license, it makes me suspicious also. What about grammar? In your sentence above the word preceding "... can't spell..." should be "who". ;-) It so happens that I sort of agree with you but one has to qualify 'educated'. Any experienced engineer to whom things like this matter would tell you that engineers, despite their level of education, are poor spellers, poor in grammar and even poor communicators. Thus we may be flogging a dead horse on this issue. Suffice it to say that I was writing my reply on a pocket PC using handwriting recognition software to translate my cursive hand in to text. So I think I can be forgiven my spelling error. AAMOF I am presently replying on the same platform. Besides I was raised and educated using British English spelling as opposed to (American English) so you may find other words to pick on from time to time. MW> http://www.engineerscanada.ca/e/ imm_incanada_1.cfm >> I will answer the second - New Brunswick and Ontario. Try http://peo.on.ca and while you are at it you may want to visit the SNAME website. As a naval architect I am a member of that institution. http://sname org Best Regards Wayne Moses <wayne.moses@comcast.net> Mon, 07 Jan 2008 16:14:08 -0600 > Reply to message from Matt Whiting <whit...@epix.net> (Sat, 05 Jan 2008 17: > What about grammar? In your sentence above the word preceding "... can't > spell..." should be "who". ;-) Heh, good one. FWIW, I use "licence" as a noun, and "license" as a verb...but then, I speak Early American, too. Oxford who? >> I also put grease on the exposed part of the lug studs (if they don't >> have the full cover lug nuts as is more common today) so that the nuts [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Greasing reduces friction and when tightened to the recommended torque, > there will be too much tension on the lug, creating a risk of breakage. I've read this here many times, and I've also read links that people point to in supporting this point. It has never convinced me though. I've always seen in those links, something beyond the simple issue of grease vs. no grease. The dry lug contention in my opinion, refers to a new condition, clean lug. That's something seldom found on a car that has a few thousand miles on it. Taking the matter to a further length, too much normal corrosion will yield a higher resistance to lower torques, and will create a false torque reading, as the reading will be responsive to the thread resistance and not the force being applied to the wheel. It's the torque when mating to the wheel that you're interested in and not just the torque on the lug. If the nut can easily run up the lug and snug to the wheel, then you're going to get a truer reading than if the lug is rusty. A light coat of grease is not going to create a significantly different resistance to torque at the thread, but a dry and normally corroded lug will. Put down the impact gun and run a nut on by hand and you can easily feel the resistance. As in everything else, there's more to the issue of grease/no grease than the simplification of reducing the matter to a statement that says no-grease. Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net >>> I also put grease on the exposed part of the lug studs (if they don't >>> have the full cover lug nuts as is more common today) so that the nuts [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > grease than the simplification of reducing the matter to a statement that > says no-grease. All it takes is a light brushing with a stainless or bronze brush to remove any rust from the threads if necessary. It takes no more time than greasing does. There is no need to use grease. It DOES make a big difference in the friction when installing a lug. If you don't want to take my word for it, ask Hyundai. For that matter, there are more than a few people on other forums who have snapped off Elantra wheel studs after greasing them. Go ask them what they think of the practice now. For the record, you should also not install lugs when they or the wheel are wet, for exactly the same reason. Sometimes it's unavoidable - when changing a flat in the rain, for example - but you should remove them when it's convenient, let them dry, they re-torque them properly. >>>> I also put grease on the exposed part of the lug studs (if they >>>> don't have the full cover lug nuts as is more common today) so that [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > few people on other forums who have snapped off Elantra wheel studs > after greasing them. Go ask them what they think of the practice now. If they used the dry thread torque setting with lubricated threads, then they might cause a problem, but they would still have to dramatically overtorque the nuts to "snap off" the studs. Most dry torque values are no more than 90% of the yield limit and this is way below the ultimate limit for most common steels. Adding oil to the threads will not, by itself, cause a lug to fail, at least not the first time. If you repeatedly exceed the yield stress, you could elongate the stud to failure, but I'll bet they were also over torquing in addition to lubricating the threads. I've used grease on my lug studs for 30 years and have never failed a stud. I wipe off and wire brush the studs before I reassemble and what little residual grease remains in the nut itself is inconsequential. Matt > If they used the dry thread torque setting with lubricated threads, then > they might cause a problem, but they would still have to dramatically [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > failure, but I'll bet they were also over torquing in addition to > lubricating the threads. In which case the studs tend to give plenty of warning that the threads are stretching. Turning them on and off makes it immediately obvious that a stud is stretching. As Matt implies - there's no sudden death involved here. > I've used grease on my lug studs for 30 years and have never failed a > stud. I wipe off and wire brush the studs before I reassemble and what > little residual grease remains in the nut itself is inconsequential. As have I, on and off. I have never snapped a stud. If studs are suddenly snapping on a particular model car, I'd say there's some junk steel in those studs. Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net > All it takes is a light brushing with a stainless or bronze brush to > remove any rust from the threads if necessary. It takes no more time than [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > few people on other forums who have snapped off Elantra wheel studs after > greasing them. Go ask them what they think of the practice now. OK, so work with me on this one Brian. Torque is torque. Torquing lugs to any setting is going to result in the same torque applied to the threads, whether they are lubed or dry. I could see where dry might present a small amount of additional resistance, but that would seem to be trivial compared to the resistance that the wheel presents. If all of these studs are snapping off of Hyunai's then I'd surely suggest the problem more lies with cheap steel in the studs, more than any problem presented by grease on the threads. I don't care what Hyundai says - of course they aren't going to say they have a problem with the studs. Lubricating studs has been a common practice for as long as the stud and lug nut have been around. Suddenly it's a problem? > For the record, you should also not install lugs when they or the wheel > are wet, for exactly the same reason. Sometimes it's unavoidable - when > changing a flat in the rain, for example - but you should remove them when > it's convenient, let them dry, they re-torque them properly. This would point to a severe quality problem and not a problem of over torquing studs. Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net > OK, so work with me on this one Brian. Torque is torque. Torquing lugs to > any setting is going to result in the same torque applied to the threads, > whether they are lubed or dry. That's true, but you've completely lost sight of the intent of torque settings, which is to create a specific amount of tension in the stud. It's an indirect setting - since there's no easy way to directly check the stud tension - and it relies on certain conditions in order to achieve the desired tension. The recommended torque settings are for clean, dry studs and nuts. If the studs/nuts are rusty/corroded, the increased friction will result in the torque setting being reached before there is optimum tension in the stud. This is not ideal, but it's not typically going to cause a problem, since the increased friction also makes it less likely that a nut will loosen. OTOH, if the studs/nuts are lubricated, the reduced friction results in the recommended torque setting not being reached until the tension in the stud is higher than desired. The result can be stretching and eventual failure of the stud. It is not always obvious when stretching occurs. As for asking Hyundai, I didn't mean to ask them if stud failures are a problem, I meant ask them whether they recommend lubricating studs and lug nuts. I'm betting the answer will be to clean off any rust or corrosion and install them dry. >> OK, so work with me on this one Brian. Torque is torque. Torquing >> lugs to any setting is going to result in the same torque applied to [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > eventual failure of the stud. It is not always obvious when stretching > occurs. If you have any mechanical inclination at all, you can easily feel when a fastener yields. I've yielded a number of bolts in my day and you can easily feel when the movement continues with no additional resistance. It is a very sickening feeling... :-) > As for asking Hyundai, I didn't mean to ask them if stud failures are a > problem, I meant ask them whether they recommend lubricating studs and > lug nuts. I'm betting the answer will be to clean off any rust or > corrosion and install them dry. Yes, that is the recommendation of most manufacturers. This is far less ideal than using properly lubricated fasteners (note that virtually all other fasteners on a vehicle, particularly those in the engine and transmission, call for lubricated fasteners. However, it acknowledges the reality that you can't count on the typical gas station/Wal-Mart place to properly lubricate the studs. Thus they provide a higher torque value and specify dry fasteners. An oiled fastener will yield much more consistent torque values than will a dry fastener. Matt >>> OK, so work with me on this one Brian. Torque is torque. Torquing >>> lugs to any setting is going to result in the same torque applied to [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > easily feel when the movement continues with no additional resistance. > It is a very sickening feeling... :-) I know what you mean, but considering the damage I've seen other people do, I suspect that the natural tendency is: "If it don't feel tight, keep crankin' on it." ;-) >> As for asking Hyundai, I didn't mean to ask them if stud failures are >> a problem, I meant ask them whether they recommend lubricating studs [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > torque value and specify dry fasteners. An oiled fastener will yield > much more consistent torque values than will a dry fastener. True. >>> I also put grease on the exposed part of the lug studs (if they don't >>> have the full cover lug nuts as is more common today) so that the nuts [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > grease than the simplification of reducing the matter to a statement that > says no-grease. That is why a fair bit of margin is left with the tabular torque values. Lubrication does make a large difference, typically requiring a 25-50% reduction in torque applied depending on the lubricant type. However, a very light coat of oil on clean threads doesn't make a tremendous difference. http://www.vfbolts.com/torque_value.htm I much prefer the uniformity I get from keeping my lug studs and nuts rust free than the issues that arise with rusty parts that will have wild swings in the torque vs. tension relationship as Brian describes above. Matt >>>> I also put grease on the exposed part of the lug studs (if they >>>> don't have the full cover lug nuts as is more common today) so that [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > wild swings in the torque vs. tension relationship as Brian describes > above. I keep mine rust-free by brushing off any rust, if necessary. Since the car comes with capped nuts, that's not even an issue. The chart you provide proves my point about lubrication. >>>>> I also put grease on the exposed part of the lug studs (if they >>>>> don't have the full cover lug nuts as is more common today) so that [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > car comes with capped nuts, that's not even an issue. The chart you > provide proves my point about lubrication. Yes, as I said at the outset, I don't use any grease if I have capped style lug nuts. Only ones where the stud is exposed through the nut and not protected from road salt and water. And brushing off rust doesn't return the surface to its original "clean and dry" condition. The pitting remains and will dramatically alter the tension that a given fastener torque will yield. I never questioned your point about the affect of lubrication on the torque/tension relationship. I'm simply saying that fasteners maintained in "like new" condition by the use of grease to prevent rust is preferable to letting the fasteners rust and then brushing off the rust. Matt A couple of more suggestions: *Make sure you are "working" all the components of your car at least occasionally. A good example would be the electric windows, especially the rear ones which don't get a lot of work. The electrical motors definitely work better when used frequently. *Keep your car clean. There is little more you can do to help it maintain its good look. With two-sided galvanized steel, clearcoat paint and more, the manufacturers have ramped up their ability to keep your car looking nice for years. But you still have to hold up your end. *Be the same "fiend" concerning maintenance you always were with the older cars. With the older ones, you did it in hopes that you had "saved" it. You treat these new ones well from the very beginning (SO many don't), and they will treat you well. And I am quite sure that you understand that this means a WHOLE lot more than just oil changes. Hope this helps. > This sounds odd but humor me. > I bought an '07 Elantra. Just out of curiosity, what things would you [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Ben > A couple of more suggestions: > > *Make sure you are "working" all the components of your car at least > occasionally. A good example would be the electric windows, especially the > rear ones which don't get a lot of work. The electrical motors definitely > work better when used frequently. This is especially true for the parking brake. They die from rust long before they will wear out. I use mine every time I park and I've never had a cable seize. Matt >> A couple of more suggestions: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > before they will wear out. I use mine every time I park and I've never > had a cable seize. That's interesting, as I rarely use mine and it's been fine, too. In a poll about this on the Elantra Club site, the results seemed to indicate that seized cables were actually more of a problem on cars where the E-brake was used frequently. Typical driving conditions weren't specified, so it's hard to draw any solid conclusions. However, it seems logical that all else being equal, an E-brake that's used more often will wear the cable seals faster and draw more moisture and foreign material into the cable. In dry environments, it's probably a non-issue, as moisture is the main problem. In damp areas, it could be a problem. I'm not suggesting that people shouldn't use their E-brake when they need to, but unnecessary use may actually be detrimental to the life of the cables on the Elantra. >>> A couple of more suggestions: >>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > need to, but unnecessary use may actually be detrimental to the life of > the cables on the Elantra. I haven't looked at an Elantra in particular so I can't comment on it specifically. However, almost all cars I've owned in the last 30 years had a place where the bare cable exits the cable sheath. This is often inside the rear brake, however, on many cars it is external to the brake and really exposed to road salt. If this cable is never moved, it will rust right up to where it enters the sheath seal. Then when you go to apply the brake, this rusted part is pulled into the seal which at the very least destroys the seal. Alternativley it refuses to enter the sheath rendering the brake ineffective or, worse yet, enters the sheath and binds inside causing the brake to refuse to fully release. Even the cables that exit the sheath inside the backing plate are still exposed to moisture and brake dust which can cause them to bind. Using the brake regularly will move this cable and remove the surface rust before it can form a huge annulus that can't be knocked off. This is the same as brake rotors. Use then often, and the small amount of surface rust is removed each day keeping the rotors pristine. Let them sit unused for say 6 months (excluding SS rotors obviously) and see what they look like. And at that point the pits are so deep that the pads can't remove them and they will eat the pads in a hurry. Same principle applies to the brake cable and the sheath seal. Matt I too have greased/oiled/lubed the lug nuts of all my cars since my 72' Mazda RX2 when I rotate or change tires. I hand tightened all of them, and never in these many years have I had a single one come even remotely loose (ish), much less be hard to take off. They're always nice and tight, but a good grunt loosens them and they spin off easily. What I think is bad is having to -stand- on the tire bar or put an extension pipe on to loosen nuts that were put (back) on by the dealer/tire store. That happens all the time. Having to do that must put a horrific strain on the lugs themselves. Maybe that's how 'tight and dry' is supposed to work. I don't like it, scares me. Never happens when I lube'em up. And the threads stay clean as a whistle. >I too have greased/oiled/lubed the lug nuts of all my cars since my 72' > Mazda RX2 when I rotate or change tires. I hand tightened all of them, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > strain on the lugs themselves. Maybe that's how 'tight and dry' is > supposed to work. I don't like it, scares me. I never liked it when I heard lug nuts sing to me as I took them off either. For the record (I know this is not relevant to the specific point of this post - I'm just using the platform for a while,,,), the primary reason that torque is speced and such a big deal made out of it on today's cars has nothing at all to do with the studs on most cars. It has everything to do with alloy wheels and cheap rotors. They warp. Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net >> I too have greased/oiled/lubed the lug nuts of all my cars since my 72' >> Mazda RX2 when I rotate or change tires. I hand tightened all of them, [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > nothing at all to do with the studs on most cars. It has everything to do > with alloy wheels and cheap rotors. They warp. True, which is why you don't want the lugs to be overtightened, whether it's due to some idiot with an air impact gun or due to lubed threads. The result is the same either way, warped rotors. Perhaps it's just coincidence, but I've never had a warped rotor on any vehicle I've owned. I've always used a torque wrench and always kept the studs clean and dry. > True, which is why you don't want the lugs to be overtightened, whether > it's due to some idiot with an air impact gun or due to lubed threads. > The result is the same either way, warped rotors. Perhaps it's just > coincidence, but I've never had a warped rotor on any vehicle I've owned. > I've always used a torque wrench and always kept the studs clean and dry. I've never warped one either but it sure is a common problem today. As more shops get away from torque sticks and use a real torque wrench, I expect we'll see fewer of those problems. Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net >> True, which is why you don't want the lugs to be overtightened, whether >> it's due to some idiot with an air impact gun or due to lubed threads. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > shops get away from torque sticks and use a real torque wrench, I expect > we'll see fewer of those problems. Are shops actually getting away from air wrenches for wheel installation? I know of only one shop locally that consistently hand torques wheels and they even mention this in their advertisements. I drive 35 miles to get tires from this shop just for this reason. There is one local garage that does my inspections that will hand torque at my request, but I don't think they do so routinely. I know of no other garage that does this, although I haven't had my car back to the Hyundai dealer so I can't speak for them. Matt > Are shops actually getting away from air wrenches for wheel installation? > I know of only one shop locally that consistently hand torques wheels and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > they do so routinely. I know of no other garage that does this, although > I haven't had my car back to the Hyundai dealer so I can't speak for them. Around here everything from Pep Boys to local shops uses torque wrenches these days. It's almost unheard of to impact on a set of lugs now. They run them on with an impact set to low torque and then torque them up with a hand wrench. You still see some torque sticks, but not so many. Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net >>> I too have greased/oiled/lubed the lug nuts of all my cars since my 72' >>> Mazda RX2 when I rotate or change tires. I hand tightened all of [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > owned. I've always used a torque wrench and always kept the studs clean > and dry. Likewise, and I always keep my studs clean, rust-free and mostly dry with just a touch of residual wheel bearing grease. :-) The lug nuts on my 15 year-old Chevy look as good as the day they left the showroom. Not a spot of rust or pitting. A little grease does wonders against road salt in PA and NY winters. If I lived in AZ then I'd dispense with the grease altogether, but where I live it would be lug stud suicide! Matt > I too have greased/oiled/lubed the lug nuts of all my cars since my 72' > Mazda RX2 when I rotate or change tires. I hand tightened all of them, and > never in these many years have I had a single one come even remotely loose > (ish), much less be hard to take off. They're always nice and tight, but a > good grunt loosens them and they spin off easily. The issue is not one of the lugs staying tight; proper torque and tension will assure that. > What I think is bad is having to -stand- on the tire bar or put an > extension pipe on to loosen nuts that were put (back) on by the dealer/tire > store. That happens all the time. Having to do that must put a horrific > strain on the lugs themselves. Maybe that's how 'tight and dry' is > supposed to work. I don't like it, scares me. No, that's not how it's supposed to work. That's the result of idiots who don't know what they're doing. I won't deal with a tire shop that doesn't use a torque wrench when installing wheels. > For example, if I can get the time, I'd love to take my brakes apart > and use anti-seize compound anywhere that's appropriate. The front rotor do have a tendency to seize to the hubs, though considering the heat involved and the length of time they're likely to be on your car, it seems questionable whether applying anti-seize between them would make any difference. If you've got nothing better to do, it can't hurt. |
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