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Car Forum / Hyundai Cars / March 2008Hyundai preformance on icy raods
Our XG350 is horrible on icy roads. We have experienced this twice now, once while on vacation where the condo was on a hill that got iced up, and now again while on vacation when we went through an ice storm. The vehicle has never behaved badly on snowy roads, or slushy roads, just ice. The vehicle has brand new Briggstone Turansa tires that I've used on other vehicles and they have been great on ice. I know there is a lot of weight on the front wheels (due to the tires always looking like they need air) so I would expect that the car would be good on ice, but no. Anybody out there have similar experience with Hyundai and ice? Any ideas what to do about it? I run my tires high (35-40 psi), would lowering that help? BTW I'm in Minnesota, so I know how to drive on snow and ice. Thanks Dan > Our XG350 is horrible on icy roads. We have experienced this twice now, > once while on vacation where the condo was on a hill that got iced up, and [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Dan Lowering them to specs would certainly put more tread on the road so it should help. There's an easy way to find out : ) Now, if you've lived in Minnesota for any appreciable time, you know darn well that driving on glare ice is almost impossible unless you have studs installed in your tires. Alas, they were eventually banned in Michigan due to the damage the caused to concrete roads. I chose a more radical solution after living in Michigan for decades. Moved to Arizona! ; ) The electronic throttle probably makes it difficult to have the degree of throttle control you desire. You do, on the other hand have the shiftronic feature, so you could try starting out in second gear to see if that improves anything. I'm also not sure you'd be increasing contact area by removing some air from the tires. Even at 35 PSI, the XG's front tires seem to bulge significantly at the sidewall. -- Message posted using http://www.talkaboutautos.com/group/alt.autos.hyundai/ More information at http://www.talkaboutautos.com/faq.html Especially if you are from Minnesota, you should keep in mind the effect that the bitter cold has on regular all-season tires, even beyond being potentially poor in either snow or ice. You just will not get the grip on even a good all-season tire that you would in Summer. I HIGHLY recommend that Minnesotans use a set of dedicated Winter tires on their vehicles. You will be stunned how much of a difference it makes on your XG350. > Our XG350 is horrible on icy roads. We have experienced this twice now, > once while on vacation where the condo was on a hill that got iced up, and [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Dan > Especially if you are from Minnesota, you should keep in mind the effect > that the bitter cold has on regular all-season tires, even beyond being > potentially poor in either snow or ice. You just will not get the grip on > even a good all-season tire that you would in Summer. I agree if you are talking about grip on pavement, although most winter tires aren't that good on pavement either. On snow or ice, the colder the better for almost all tires. The traction when temps are below zero is FAR better than when between 20 and warmer. The main culprit in poor traction on ice and packed snow is a very thin layer of water formed between the tire and the snow or ice due to the pressure. This layer is difficult to form when it gets cold enough and thus the traction improves dramatically. > I HIGHLY recommend that Minnesotans use a set of dedicated Winter tires on > their vehicles. You will be stunned how much of a difference it makes on > your XG350. Yes, not doubt that purpose-built tires are better in the conditions for which they are designed, but they are also much worse in almost all conditions other than for which they were designed. If you have snow on the road the majority of the time, then I would get snow tires. Where I live, we have snow on the roads for only a small part of the time and thus snow tires are a bad deal overall. Our road crews are very good and typically have the salt out and the roads clear within hours of a snowfall. The roads are then wet and soon dry and in both of these conditions, the all-season radials outperform the dedicated winter tires. Matt >> Especially if you are from Minnesota, you should keep in mind the >> effect that the bitter cold has on regular all-season tires, even [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > snowfall. The roads are then wet and soon dry and in both of these > conditions, the all-season radials outperform the dedicated winter tires. OTOH, I run dedicated snow tires every winter and have for decades. Just for fun, when I bought my Elantra, I decided to try the stock tires in the winter. One snowstorm was all it took to convince me of the error of that thinking. I live in NH, where the road crews are very adept at getting the highways and main roads cleared quickly, but that's not always the case on secondary and rural roads. Moreover, wet roads often get slushy then freeze at night, creating treacherous conditions. My experience has been that having dedicated winter tires (Nokian Hakka IIs, in my case) is a night and day difference in performance in difficult conditions. I don't find them to be a problem on dry roads at all (I don't drive aggressively enough for it to matter) and they work fine in winter rains, too. They do handle some differently than my summer tires, but I've done this for long enough that I make the adjustment in a few miles. I have no choice but to drive in some pretty horrendous conditions, so the choice of whether to go with dedicated winter tires is a no-brainer for me. I have to admit to taking a certain perverse pleasure in comfortably cruising by white-knuckled SUV drivers that are sliding all over - or off - the road on their "all season" tires, which really should be called "no season", since they pretty well suck at everything. It never ceases to amaze me that people will spend several thousand extra dollars on almost useless FWD when they could get better performance with a front-drive vehicle and a few hundred dollars spent on good winter rubber. >>> Especially if you are from Minnesota, you should keep in mind the >>> effect that the bitter cold has on regular all-season tires, even [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > performance with a front-drive vehicle and a few hundred dollars spent > on good winter rubber. I think we've had this conversation before, but I've had a much different experience. I live in extreme northern PA (just a mile or two south of the NY border) and our winters are pretty nasty here also. Maybe not as bad as NH, but that probably depends on where in NH you live. I've had no problems with All-season tires. The only tires I've had trouble with are the stock tires that came on my Sonata, but they were Michelin "performance" tires rather than all-season tires. My driveway alone is more treacherous that most roads and I plow it myself, but do not apply any salt, cinders or sand. I can send you a picture if you want to see it! :-) I haven't run a snow tire on a car since the 1970s and get through winters just fine. I don run M&S tires on my Chevy pickup as that is my plow vehicle and I don't want to have to mess with putting on chains. I do have a full set of chains, but have only needed them once and that was with the original Goodyear AT tires that didn't have a very aggressive tread. However, these tires are very loud on the road and wear pretty quickly, but for a truck that sees only 5K miles a year and most of them are plowing snow or hauling firewood, rapid wear isn't a big deal. I've found that performance in the snow is more a function of driver technique than tire style. I routinely drive 55-60 on snow covered 4-lane roads and pass SUVs all of the time. The all-season tires on my Sonata and minivan work just fine in anything less than a foot of snow. If I have to deal with a foot or more, I take the truck. :-) Matt >>>> Especially if you are from Minnesota, you should keep in mind the >>>> effect that the bitter cold has on regular all-season tires, even [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > south of the NY border) and our winters are pretty nasty here also. > Maybe not as bad as NH, but that probably depends on where in NH you live. Yes, we've discussed this before and I'm sure our respective winters are comparable enough. > I've had no problems with All-season tires. The only tires I've had > trouble with are the stock tires that came on my Sonata, but they were [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > most of them are plowing snow or hauling firewood, rapid wear isn't a > big deal. We're talking about car tires here, not truck tires. You really cannot compare the two. Winter car tires do not have the disadvantages of truck tires, either in noise or wear. There is usually a very slight increase in noise and I get at least three winters out of a set of tires, driving them ~5 months per year. I find that acceptable given their benefits. > I've found that performance in the snow is more a function of driver > technique than tire style. I routinely drive 55-60 on snow covered > 4-lane roads and pass SUVs all of the time. The all-season tires on my > Sonata and minivan work just fine in anything less than a foot of snow. > If I have to deal with a foot or more, I take the truck. :-) Perhaps it's time you tried a set of dedicated winter tires on your cars. Your dismissive statements are typical of people who've never tried winter tires (or in your case, haven't done so in 30+ years). The fact is that you can't appreciate the difference until you experience it. I've done the comparison on my Elantra and six other cars I've owned, including several instances where I've literally driven in the same storm with both types of tires (typically the first storm of the season). The difference in traction is DRAMATIC compared to all season or performance tires. Everyone I've convinced to try winter tires have said the same thing. I also drive a lot of rental cars these days and I've seen firsthand exactly how bad many all season tires are in winter conditions. While I agree that technique and skill are important, neither can create traction where it doesn't exist. That's the main benefit of winter tires, they grip were other tires don't. This discussion reminds me of "Green Eggs and Ham". ;-) > Perhaps it's time you tried a set of dedicated winter tires on your > cars. Your dismissive statements are typical of people who've never [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > neither can create traction where it doesn't exist. That's the main > benefit of winter tires, they grip were other tires don't. If I were having problems with all-season tires, then I would try snow tires. However, I can drive 55 on snow covered roads with confidence and stability and I can make it up my 1700' uphill driveway without the need to do anything other than plow it, so there is no need to spend extra money on tires and changing them two extra times a year. I'm not against snow tires at all, I just don't need them ... like 98% of the rest of the folks in the USA. There are 2% who need them and they should buy and use them. > This discussion reminds me of "Green Eggs and Ham". ;-) Yes, I agree! Matt >> Perhaps it's time you tried a set of dedicated winter tires on your >> cars. Your dismissive statements are typical of people who've never [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > of the rest of the folks in the USA. There are 2% who need them and > they should buy and use them. Considering how much of the country lies in the "snow belt", that's a pretty ridiculous statement. >>> Perhaps it's time you tried a set of dedicated winter tires on your >>> cars. Your dismissive statements are typical of people who've never [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Considering how much of the country lies in the "snow belt", that's a > pretty ridiculous statement. Possibly, but consider how many people who live in the snow belt get along just fine without snow tires. I lived over 60 years in snowy mid-Michigan and never had a need for snow tires. And when front-wheel-drive became common there was even less need for the hassle of changing in and out of snow tires. >> Considering how much of the country lies in the "snow belt", that's a >> pretty ridiculous statement. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > common there was even less need for the hassle of changing in and out of > snow tires. I too haven't run snows in a while, but be real, all seasons really aren't good in snow-we've all just like the ease of them. But, I think the best way is to have four snows on four steel wheels for the few winter months. Hey we rotate tires anyway, whats the big deal in putting on the snows. Snows on snow free winter roads doesn't really bother when operating at sane speeds doing sane manuevers. I know I have to get snow for the wifes volvo; No 245 40 17's behave at all in snow. A narrower 16" snow on steel wheels next year for that vehicle for sure. >>> Considering how much of the country lies in the "snow belt", that's a >>> pretty ridiculous statement. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > all in snow. A narrower 16" snow on steel wheels next year for that > vehicle for sure. Depends where you live. In mid-Michigan (Lansing area), keeping an extra set of tires just for snow couldn't be justified by most drivers. And accordingly, it's not a very common practice. Maybe in upper Michigan where they get clobbered by lake-effect snow but not the rest of the state. "> Depends where you live. In mid-Michigan (Lansing area), keeping an extra set > of tires just for snow couldn't be justified by most drivers. And > accordingly, it's not a very common practice. Maybe in upper Michigan > where they get clobbered by lake-effect snow but not the rest of the > state. I know what your saying, but it brings to mind something my mother used to say about cars..."It doesn't cost anymore to keep the tank full as it does empty" Once you've bought the snows and cheap steel wheels, it doesn't cost any more to employ them. Miles put on snows are miles not put on regular tires....BTW how many of us use summer tires as opposed to all season radials, and is anyone troiubled by that performance compromise (wet weather, braking and handling). There, I'm done beating the dead horse<grin>.....I guess the group does largely agree on one thing- The OP faulting Hyundai is mostly without merit.(I think the touchy throttle observation was a good one though) "Darby OGill" <darbyogill@net.net> wrote in message > There, I'm done beating the dead horse<grin>.....I guess the group does > largely agree on one thing- The OP faulting Hyundai is mostly without > merit.(I think the touchy throttle observation was a good one though) Jus in case the horse is not dead.- - - - - The Sonata 5 speed auto can be manually shifted into 2nd gear for starts on slippery roads. > "Darby OGill" <darbyogill@net.net> wrote in message >> There, I'm done beating the dead horse<grin>.....I guess the group does [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > The Sonata 5 speed auto can be manually shifted into 2nd gear for starts on > slippery roads. What, your traction control failed? :-) Matt "Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message >> Jus in case the horse is not dead.- - - - - >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Matt The TC works very well. When I pull out of my driveway I make a left up a hill A few mornings in snow the TC did a very good job but it seems even better in 2nd. I've also been able to pass other cars on a hill with the help of TC while the others were spinning. And that is with 30K on the original tires. Overall, I'm pleased with the snow performance of the car. Oh, no, I'm not considering snows. Like you and Mike point out, too much of a compromise for the rest of my driving. > "> Depends where you live. In mid-Michigan (Lansing area), keeping an extra > set [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > faulting Hyundai is mostly without merit.(I think the touchy throttle > observation was a good one though) Well, your mother was wrong. It DOES cost more to haul around a full tank of gas! And it does cost more to use snow tires. They wear much faster than an all-season or summer tire so every mile put on a snow tire is more costly than a mile put on an all-season or summer tire. No, I'm not bothered by the summer compromises of all-season tires as, again, I don't need the performance of a performance summer tire. The only difference I saw between the tires that came on my Sonata and the tires I have now is that the performance tires wore out in 30K miles rather than the 50-60K I typically achieve with all-season tires. That is the performance of most interest to me. Matt >> "> Depends where you live. In mid-Michigan (Lansing area), keeping an >> extra set [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > faster than an all-season or summer tire so every mile put on a snow > tire is more costly than a mile put on an all-season or summer tire. That's simply not true and since you haven't used any in over 30 years, you have nothing to base that conclusion on. Winter tire design and rubber formulations have changed considerably. While it's true that they use softer tread compounds than some "all season tires", they're quite durable in the colder winter temperatures they're designed for. They're often MORE durable that typical soft summer "performance" compounds. My winter tires last at least as many seasons as my summer tires and they typically cost less. Once you amortize the cost of the extra set of wheels, it's all gravy (I had one set of wheels that I used on four cars between '84 and '04). Unless one drives aggressively year-round when on dry pavement, there is no significant downside to winter tires. There ARE significant safety and performance advantages to them in nasty winter conditions. There isn't any inconvenience, either. As Darby pointed out, instead of rotating your tires twice per year (which we should be doing anyway), you just swap from summers to winters and vice versa - rotating them whenever they're reinstalled, of course. If making the switch forces people to rotate their tires when they might not do it otherwise, their summer tires will last longer and they'll actually see some cost saving from it. Frankly, most of the arguments against winter tires - for people who live in climates where they're justified - really boil down to one of three things: - I don't want to - I don't care - I'm too cheap > Frankly, most of the arguments against winter tires - for people who live > in climates where they're justified - really boil down to one of three [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > - I'm too cheap Add "I don't need them to drive safely" It doesn't "really boil down to ..." your biases. If I've driven in northern snow for almost 50 years -- many before front-wheel drive or radial tires -- without any significant problem, none of things you boiled this down to do not apply. Maybe "I don't need to" would be a better addition to your list. >> Frankly, most of the arguments against winter tires - for people who live >> in climates where they're justified - really boil down to one of three [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > of things you boiled this down to do not apply. Maybe "I don't need to" > would be a better addition to your list. Brian, How does if feel to be right when the rest of the world is wrong? It seems like the sentiment is nearly 100% opposite to your opinion. Matt >>> Frankly, most of the arguments against winter tires - for people who >>> live in climates where they're justified - really boil down to one of [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > How does if feel to be right when the rest of the world is wrong? It > seems like the sentiment is nearly 100% opposite to your opinion. So is that what you're argument is reduced to now? I'm not a lemming, therefore I must be wrong? >>> "> Depends where you live. In mid-Michigan (Lansing area), keeping an >>> extra set [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > That's simply not true and since you haven't used any in over 30 years, > you have nothing to base that conclusion on. It simply is true: http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/tires-auto-parts/tires/tire-sorter-winte r/winter-performance-tires-11-06/overview/1106_tires_ov.htm http://www.consumersearch.com/www/automotive/snow-tires/review.html Winter tires lack the tread wear rating for a reason. I also said I haven't used snow tires on my CARS in over 30 years, but I do use them on my snow plow truck and they wear MUCH faster than all-season tires. Winter tire design and > rubber formulations have changed considerably. While it's true that they > use softer tread compounds than some "all season tires", they're quite [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > otherwise, their summer tires will last longer and they'll actually see > some cost saving from it. I have no doubt that snow tires will outlast performance summer tires as they have VERY soft compounds and absolutely lousy tread life. However, they will not outwear a good all-season tire, not even close. Post even one credible reference that suggests otherwise. > Frankly, most of the arguments against winter tires - for people who > live in climates where they're justified - really boil down to one of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > - I'm too cheap No, they boil down to "I don't need them." It is as simple as that. A question for you, do you drive only all-wheel drive vehicles? Matt >>>> "> Depends where you live. In mid-Michigan (Lansing area), keeping >>>> an extra set [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > http://www.consumersearch.com/www/automotive/snow-tires/review.html Did you even read either of these articles??? Here's the first paragraph from the second one: "Even if your car has traction control or an ABS braking system, those features won't improve traction on snow and ice. Experts at The Tire Rack say only snow tires will actually improve grip on snow and ice. Although all-wheel-drive or front-wheel-drive is an advantage, you'll still improve safety by swapping your summer or all-season tires for winter ones. This is because snow tires have special tread designs that help them bite into the snow. Snow tires also use a softer rubber compound, so they stay flexible at lower temperatures." That certainly doesn't support your anti-winter tire assertions. > Winter tires lack the tread wear rating for a reason. They lack a tread wear rating because they're not designed for year-round use. > I also said I haven't used snow tires on my CARS in over 30 years, but I > do use them on my snow plow truck and they wear MUCH faster than > all-season tires. On your truck I can believe it, but on cars it's not true, at least not in the absolute terms you proclaim. I can give you a perfect example, the tires on my Elantra. The car is an '04 and I've driven both sets of tires for four seasons (the winter season isn't over yet, but it's close enough). My summer tires - the stock Michelins that came on the car - are completely worn out and must be replaced. Actually, they really should have been replaced before last season, but they just passed inspection. In contrast, my winter tires still have 2/3 of their original depth. They will last at least another season and perhaps two. > Winter tire design and >> rubber formulations have changed considerably. While it's true that [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > they will not outwear a good all-season tire, not even close. Post even > one credible reference that suggests otherwise. Obviously, you're wrong, as the results on my car prove. I don't need a reference, I have the tires to prove it. If it makes you happy, I'll send you pictures of both. Your argument is simply a fabrication to support your bias against winter tires. >> Frankly, most of the arguments against winter tires - for people who >> live in climates where they're justified - really boil down to one of [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > A question for you, do you drive only all-wheel drive vehicles? Don't change the subject. I've already covered that ground in another post. >>>>> "> Depends where you live. In mid-Michigan (Lansing area), keeping >>>>> an extra set [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Did you even read either of these articles??? Here's the first paragraph > from the second one: Yes, I read them both. > "Even if your car has traction control or an ABS braking system, those > features won't improve traction on snow and ice. Experts at The Tire [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > That certainly doesn't support your anti-winter tire assertions. I've never made an anti-winter tire assertion. I'm not against them, I've said they are better than all-season tires in snow and ice, but I've also said that all-seasons are more than adequate for my needs and thus I don't need winter tires. >> Winter tires lack the tread wear rating for a reason. > > They lack a tread wear rating because they're not designed for > year-round use. And because they wear so quickly consumers would be shocked at the numbers. >> I also said I haven't used snow tires on my CARS in over 30 years, but >> I do use them on my snow plow truck and they wear MUCH faster than [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > inspection. In contrast, my winter tires still have 2/3 of their > original depth. They will last at least another season and perhaps two. Tires wear by the mile not by the season. >> Winter tire design and >>> rubber formulations have changed considerably. While it's true that [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > send you pictures of both. Your argument is simply a fabrication to > support your bias against winter tires. You haven't provided any data to prove anything. You have provided no mileages for the life of any tires, just "seasons" which is irrelevant. >>> Frankly, most of the arguments against winter tires - for people who >>> live in climates where they're justified - really boil down to one of [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Don't change the subject. I've already covered that ground in another post. You aren't consistent. If you want the best possible performance, then you must drive AWD along with your snow tires. If you aren't driving AWD vehicles, then you are settling for less than the best. Matt >>>>>> "> Depends where you live. In mid-Michigan (Lansing area), keeping >>>>>> an extra set [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > I've also said that all-seasons are more than adequate for my needs and > thus I don't need winter tires. Fair enough, but you certainly are going out of your way to rationalize that decision and discourage others from trying winter tires. >>> Winter tires lack the tread wear rating for a reason. >> >> They lack a tread wear rating because they're not designed for >> year-round use. > > And because they wear so quickly consumers would be shocked at the numbers. More BS from you, Matt? My tires are wearing quite slowly. Please do explain why so we can all be enlightened. >>> I also said I haven't used snow tires on my CARS in over 30 years, >>> but I do use them on my snow plow truck and they wear MUCH faster [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Tires wear by the mile not by the season. Gee, no kidding? If it makes you feel any better, I drive the same distances year round, in the same manner and mostly highway miles. I typically use my summer tires ~20% more than my winter tires, which is nowhere near enough to explain the increased wear. Your blanket statement about tire wear is obviously, blatantly false, but you apparently can't deal with being wrong. >>> Winter tire design and >>>> rubber formulations have changed considerably. While it's true that [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > You haven't provided any data to prove anything. You have provided no > mileages for the life of any tires, just "seasons" which is irrelevant. See the details above. You're wrong, get over it. >>>> Frankly, most of the arguments against winter tires - for people who >>>> live in climates where they're justified - really boil down to one [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > you must drive AWD along with your snow tires. If you aren't driving > AWD vehicles, then you are settling for less than the best. Please show me where I ever said that I wanted the "best possible performance". You made that up, which is pretty lame, Matt. Everything to do with automotive performance is a compromise. When it comes to dealing with winter conditions, I draw the line at spending thousands of extra dollars for AWD or 4WD vehicles and thousands more in increased fuel, insurance and maintenance costs to gain a marginal improvement in acceleration traction in winter conditions (AWD/4WD does nothing to improve braking or cornering in slippery conditions). I'm far more concerned with being able to turn and stop than I am with accelerating or getting stuck (I've only gotten stuck - briefly - in snow once in the past 30 years, and that was because I tried to drive though 18" of it in an un-plowed parking lot). The poor handling and high center of gravity of many SUVs - particularly those that are truck based - is arguably more likely to cause an accident than their AWD/4WD systems are to prevent one. IMO, most SUV drivers would be better off with a car that inherently handles better, equipped with four winter tires. The environment would be better off too, but that's another discussion entirely. You and I apparently draw the line at different point and that's fine. However, your fabrication of bogus disadvantages to winter tires in an effort to justify your position is just plain pathetic. >>>>>>> "> Depends where you live. In mid-Michigan (Lansing area), >>>>>>> keeping an extra set [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > More BS from you, Matt? My tires are wearing quite slowly. Please do > explain why so we can all be enlightened. I don't know how you drive nor what kind of tires you have so I have no way to explain it. >>>> I also said I haven't used snow tires on my CARS in over 30 years, >>>> but I do use them on my snow plow truck and they wear MUCH faster [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > statement about tire wear is obviously, blatantly false, but you > apparently can't deal with being wrong. So, as I expected, your mileage per year on your summer tires is NOT the same as your winter tires as you implied in your comparison. I provided several references that indicate that winter tires wear more rapidly than all-season tires. You have provided nothing but your opinion to the contrary. Sorry, that isn't even close to data. >>>> Winter tire design and >>>>> rubber formulations have changed considerably. While it's true that [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > See the details above. You're wrong, get over it. You provided nothing but your opinion. Sorry, you are wrong, get over it. >>>>> Frankly, most of the arguments against winter tires - for people >>>>> who live in climates where they're justified - really boil down to [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > tires. The environment would be better off too, but that's another > discussion entirely. You are again wrong on virtually all counts. The gain in acceleration and ability to go through deep snow provided by AWD is substantial as compared the winter tires on FWD. I believe it was the Consumer Reports link that gave the figures here, but I realize that you value your own opinion over real data. It is also patently false to say that AWD/4WD does nothing to add cornering. A tire has only so much tractive force available to handle all demands placed on it: acceleration and maintaining forward speed (rearward force), cornering (side force) and deceleration (frontward force). A car that is driven by only two wheels is requiring those two tires to transfer both the full rearward force required to keep the car moving at a steady speed in a corner as well as the side force required. And since FWD cars typically have 60% or more of their weight on the driving wheels, this puts a substantial burden on those two tires. Transferring half of the required rearward force to the rear tires gives the front tires additional margin which provides more side force and thus more cornering capability. This is simple physics and well understood by most automotive engineers, rally car drivers, and people like me who drive FWD and 4WD vehicles every week all winter long. You are mostly correct with regard to braking, but even then not completely correct for two reasons: 1. Most AWD/4WD vehicles have a more favorable weight distribution as compared to FWD vehicles and the relatively greater weight on the rear wheels allows them to better share the braking force and thus deliver more braking force. 2. My 4WD truck has no ABS, but the direct connection at the transfer case coupled with the locking differential means that rear wheels won't lock up and skid until at least one front wheel is also locked. This is a great advantage over a RWD truck where the rear wheels can lock under very light braking effort when on slick roads. My truck thus stops much better in 4WD than in 2WD (which is RWD). > You and I apparently draw the line at different point and that's fine. > However, your fabrication of bogus disadvantages to winter tires in an > effort to justify your position is just plain pathetic. I have not asserted a single bogus disadvantage to winter tires. Some of the disadvantages they have are as follows and as documented in several independent links I have provided. You have provided NOT A SINGLE independent reference, just your opinion. The arrogance of that is astounding. Some winter tire disadvantages: 1. Must make two extra tire changes each year or must buy an extra set of rims and make two wheel changes a year. 2. Poorer tread life. 3. Poorer performance on dry pavement (which is what exists MOST of the year even in the snow belt regions. In PA and NY, it is rare to have snow or ice on the public roads for more than a couple hours after a storm is over. Given that most snow storms last less than 24 hours, that means maybe 26 hours of snowy/slushy roads per storm. Given that we get at most one snow per week on average, and typically more like one every 2-4 weeks, that means that the conditions where winter tires excel exist for at most 26/168 = 15% of the time and more typically 5% of the time. I simply choose to use tires that perform better 95% of the time rather than 5% of the time. Pretty simple logic, eh? :-) So, which of the above is bogus? And it only counts if you can provide a legitimate and independent reference that refutes what I wrote. The "it is bogus because I say it is bogus" line or argument simply carries no weight. MAtt >>>>>>>> "> Depends where you live. In mid-Michigan (Lansing area), >>>>>>>> keeping an extra set [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > I don't know how you drive nor what kind of tires you have so I have no > way to explain it. The explanation is simple, the winter tires are more durable. I doubt that's the case in every comparison of ASRs and winter tires, but it clearly illustrates that your contention that winter tires wear rapidly is wrong. >>>>> I also said I haven't used snow tires on my CARS in over 30 years, >>>>> but I do use them on my snow plow truck and they wear MUCH faster [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > than all-season tires. You have provided nothing but your opinion to > the contrary. Sorry, that isn't even close to data. You really are hopeless, Matt. I've given you detailed information that refutes your assertion and you still won't give up. I could easily have kept that to myself if I wanted to be deceptive like you, but I'm not like that. >>>>> Winter tire design and >>>>>> rubber formulations have changed considerably. While it's true [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > You provided nothing but your opinion. Sorry, you are wrong, get over it. No Matt, I've got tires that prove you're wrong. That's not an opinion, it's clear evidence. If nothing else, watching you grasping at straws and destroying your credibility is somewhat entertaining, if a little sad. >>>>>> Frankly, most of the arguments against winter tires - for people >>>>>> who live in climates where they're justified - really boil down to [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > link that gave the figures here, but I realize that you value your own > opinion over real data. Here's a link to a Car and Driver article that clearly states that snow tires provide a bigger advantage in snow than AWD/4WD: http://www.caranddriver.com/features/columns/c_d_columns/snow_tires_still_beat_f our_wheel_drive_column Frankly, I trust them more than Comsumer Reports when it comes to cars. As for real data, you obviously wouldn't know it if it bit you in the a.s, Matt. ;-) > It is also patently false to say that AWD/4WD does nothing to add > cornering. A tire has only so much tractive force available to handle [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > tires to transfer both the full rearward force required to keep the car > moving at a steady speed in a corner as well as the side force required. And when you're rolling through a corner, there is little or no tractive or braking force being transferred. > And since FWD cars typically have 60% or more of their weight on the > driving wheels, this puts a substantial burden on those two tires. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > understood by most automotive engineers, rally car drivers, and people > like me who drive FWD and 4WD vehicles every week all winter long. You need to go back to physics 101, Matt. In slippery conditions, the differences you're talking about are tiny. Your ARSs will slip before snow tires will and AWD/4WD is never going to be able to make up the traction difference. > You are mostly correct with regard to braking, but even then not > completely correct for two reasons: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > wheels allows them to better share the braking force and thus deliver > more braking force. Regardless of the MINOR difference in weight distribution, the front tires are still going to bear ~70-75% of the braking load. Once again, the superior traction of snow tires will trump the theoretical improvement from a slight difference in weight distribution. You're still grasping at straws, Matt. > 2. My 4WD truck has no ABS, but the direct connection at the transfer > case coupled with the locking differential means that rear wheels won't > lock up and skid until at least one front wheel is also locked. This is > a great advantage over a RWD truck where the rear wheels can lock under > very light braking effort when on slick roads. My truck thus stops much > better in 4WD than in 2WD (which is RWD). We're not talking about trucks, Matt. You're changing the subject again. But since we're on it, your plow-equipped truck has far WORSE weight distribution than a front-drive car or rear drive truck. I wonder what effect that will have... (I can't wait to see what you make up next. >> You and I apparently draw the line at different point and that's fine. >> However, your fabrication of bogus disadvantages to winter tires in an [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > 1. Must make two extra tire changes each year or must buy an extra set > of rims and make two wheel changes a year. I put mine on rims, which is the most sensible thing to do. I change them twice per year (as I stated before), which is when they're due to be rotated anyway. There's no disadvantage at all beyond the initial cost of the rims. Having snow tires saves wear on more expensive summer tires, so over a few years, the cost of the wheels will be amortized. > 2. Poorer tread life. Wrong. How many times are we going to go over this same ground? I have the evidence that proves you wrong. End of story. > 3. Poorer performance on dry pavement (which is what exists MOST of the > year even in the snow belt regions. In PA and NY, it is rare to have [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > time. I simply choose to use tires that perform better 95% of the time > rather than 5% of the time. Pretty simple logic, eh? :-) Some winter tires do have less dry traction than some ASRs, but making another blanket statement is likely to come back to haunt you, Matt (some ASRs just plain suck at everything). For the way I drive, it makes no difference. I have never had a problem stopping with them on dry pavement and the only thing I notice is that they handle slightly differently, which I adjust to in about five minutes. Just for laughs, I have pushed them to their cornering limits and they actually break loose more gradually and predictably than my summer tires, though at a slightly lower cornering speed (which is what one would expect of narrower tires with a higher aspect ratio). While they certainly aren't necessary on dry roads, I love 'em every time I drive in snow, which has been rather frequently this winter. > So, which of the above is bogus? And it only counts if you can provide > a legitimate and independent reference that refutes what I wrote. The > "it is bogus because I say it is bogus" line or argument simply carries > no weight. You are completely hopeless, Matt. If you're ever in the neighborhood of southern NH in the winter, I'll be glad to give you a demonstration that proves your assertions are nonsense. Not that you'll ever admit it... > "> Depends where you live. In mid-Michigan (Lansing area), keeping an > extra set [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > faulting Hyundai is mostly without merit.(I think the touchy throttle > observation was a good one though) Okay, so let's say I have a sedan with nice looking mags and a "too full" garage. Should I buy 4 less than beautiful steel wheels to mount 4 snow tires when their benefit to me is trivial? I don't have space to store less than necessary stuff in my garage --- along with the other probably unnecessary junk I've got there : ) I think that's the mindset of people who live in the climate area I'm discussing >> "> Depends where you live. In mid-Michigan (Lansing area), keeping an >> extra set [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > I think that's the mindset of people who live in the climate area I'm > discussing If I had a nice set of wheels I would probably buy a set of snows w/ steel wheels for several reasons. 1) I do not drive aggressively enough to worry about the difference in handling. 2) Here in SE Michigan we have these thing that crop up every winter called potholes. Hit a large one at speed with your nice wheel and tire and you could be out almost the cost of a set of winter tires/wheels. 3) The gain in snow driveability that you will gain from a narrower tire say going from a 255/50/17 to a 225/75/16 (example only) with a winter specific tread is undeniable. Yes you can drive all winter with all season tires but if I had the money and drove a lot of miles I defy anyone, that has had experience with both, to honestly say that on a snow and/or ice covered road that they will opt for all season over winter tires . 4) Keeping my nice wheels free of road salt and extending the life of my "good" tires by five to ten months are also added benefits. Only you can decide if the benefits are trivial or not. Where you live, how much snow, what your nice mags and wheels cost, what the road conditions are and whether you have space to store an extra set are all considerations that only you can factor in. >> Okay, so let's say I have a sedan with nice looking mags and a "too full" >> garage. Should I buy 4 less than beautiful steel wheels to mount 4 snow [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > conditions are and whether you have space to store an extra set are all > considerations that only you can factor in. And keep in mind that SE Michigan has noticeably less snow than mid-Michigan. I drove over 45 years on mid-Michigan roads and could never justify snow tires. And a good part of those years was before front-while-drive and radial tires were commonplace. Of course, now that I live in sunny southern Arizona I don't have to even consider them : ) >>> Considering how much of the country lies in the "snow belt", that's a >>> pretty ridiculous statement. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I too haven't run snows in a while, but be real, all seasons really aren't > good in snow-we've all just like the ease of them. I have to disagree with you here. I find modern all-season tires very good in snow. Not as good as snow tires, no doubt, but good enough for 99.9% of the snow I encounter in a typical winter and I encounter about 5 months worth here in PA. They aren't the best possible tire in snow, but then I don't need the best possible tire. I need a tire good enough for my conditions and that is what my all-season tires are: good enough for my needs. Saying you need snow tires is like saying you need all-wheel drive. All-wheel drive is better than FWD, but that doesn't mean that every NEEDS it. Same with snow tires. Matt > I have to disagree with you here. I find modern all-season tires very > good in snow. Not as good as snow tires, no doubt, but good enough for > 99.9% of the snow I encounter in a typical winter and I encounter about 5 > months worth here in PA. That's my point, so I'm happy to echo your words Matt. Here in Central NY, I've just never encountered the time when I "needed" snow tires. My driving habits are not impared by a good ASR, and I haven't suffered incoveniences that would have been avoided with snows. I tend to drive as fast and as aggressively as conditions permit, and I just expect that winter conditions can and often do, dictate that those two terms don't mean the same thing they do in the summer time. Snows would not change that. It's not all about being able to take off. It's also about being able to stop, avoid, etc. The marginal benefit that snows would offer in the full spectrum of winter driving are just lost on me. If I haven't encountered needs for them in the 30+ years since I last purchased a snow tire, why would I want to put them on now? They wouldn't change my winter time driving habits, so any marginal benefit would just be lost. Without a doubt - I fully agree with your dissention to the previous comment that ASR's are insufficient for winter use. Touring tires are (IMHO), but there are a lot of very good ASR tread patterns that are perfectly acceptable for winter use. > Saying you need snow tires is like saying you need all-wheel drive. > All-wheel drive is better than FWD, but that doesn't mean that every NEEDS > it. Same with snow tires. Which leaves unturned, that huge stone that attempts to argue that since 4WD will take off better in snow, move through snow better with 7 1/2 feet of steel sticking off the nose, and in fact push the weight of that snow ahead of that 7 1/2 feet of steel, that 4WD must be better in snow. There are downsides to the confidence that falsely creeps into people's minds when there are niche benefits to things.  Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net > It's not all > about being able to take off. It's also about being able to stop, avoid, > etc. That's exactly my point. Snow tires improve performance in ALL of those categories in bad conditions. >> Saying you need snow tires is like saying you need all-wheel drive. >> All-wheel drive is better than FWD, but that doesn't mean that every NEEDS >> it. Same with snow tires. No, it's not like that at all. The truth is that very few people actually NEED 4WD or AWD, they just THINK they do. They perceive benefits that simply aren't there and ignore the downsides. What people actually need is better traction in a vehicle that handles well. FWD and AWD are not a guarantee of the former, since the tires are at least as large of a factor as the drive system, and they're a definite disadvantage when it come to handling, except in the case of some higher-end AWD systems in cars. > Which leaves unturned, that huge stone that attempts to argue that since 4WD > will take off better in snow, move through snow better with 7 1/2 feet of > steel sticking off the nose, and in fact push the weight of that snow ahead > of that 7 1/2 feet of steel, that 4WD must be better in snow. There are > downsides to the confidence that falsely creeps into people's minds when > there are niche benefits to things. Absolutely! It's what convinces people to spend thousands of extra dollars on vehicles that are no better in the snow - and often worse - than a FWD car with a few hundred dollars worth of snow tires on it. It's also what makes them feel invincible enough to drive like idiots in bad conditions and ultimately end up off the road on their roofs. >> It's not all about being able to take off. It's also about being able >> to stop, avoid, etc. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > actually NEED 4WD or AWD, they just THINK they do. They perceive > benefits that simply aren't there and ignore the downsides. The truth is, very few people NEED snow tires, they just think they do. The benefits of AWD exceed the benefits of snow tires as many tests have shown. > What people actually need is better traction in a vehicle that handles > well. FWD and AWD are not a guarantee of the former, since the tires are > at least as large of a factor as the drive system, and they're a > definite disadvantage when it come to handling, except in the case of > some higher-end AWD systems in cars. My truck in 4WD handles much better than my FWD cars. >> Which leaves unturned, that huge stone that attempts to argue that >> since 4WD will take off better in snow, move through snow better with [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > It's also what makes them feel invincible enough to drive like idiots in > bad conditions and ultimately end up off the road on their roofs. Can you produce a reference to any tests that show that snow tires on a 2WD car increases performance in snow more than AWD on that same car? Matt >> It's not all about being able to take off. It's also about being able >> to stop, avoid, etc. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > It's also what makes them feel invincible enough to drive like idiots in > bad conditions and ultimately end up off the road on their roofs. http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/news/2005/winter-driving-405-wi nter-driving-safety-winter-tires/ >>> It's not all about being able to take off. It's also about being >>> able to stop, avoid, etc. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/news/2005/winter-driving-405-wi nter-driving-safety-winter-tires/ You didn't read this one either, did you? It supports my assertions much more than yours. >>>> It's not all about being able to take off. It's also about being >>>> able to stop, avoid, etc. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > You didn't read this one either, did you? It supports my assertions much > more than yours. Yes, I read it and it supports my assertions just fine. What part of "The best were the all-wheel-drive cars, which reached almost 20 mph sooner, on average, than the front-drive cars equipped with winter tires." didn't you understand? And what part of "Our advice. Consider an all-wheel-drive vehicle if you live in a snowy area or want added peace of mind. For maximum traction, equip it with winter tires. In less-snowy areas, front-wheel drive and a set of winter tires should suffice. Mount winter tires on all four wheels for balanced handling. Remove them after winter, since these tires wear quickly on dry roads (plan on about three winters of use). And be sure to opt for ABS on any vehicle." didn't you catch? AWD is best in snowy areas. Winter tires should SUFFICE (emphasis added so you can't miss it) in less-snow areas. "These tires (referring to winter tires) WEAR QUICKLY on dry roads. Again, emphasis added since you missed this the first time around. The only thing they left out is that all-season tires also suffice in most areas of the country. Matt >>>>> It's not all about being able to take off. It's also about being >>>>> able to stop, avoid, etc. [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > almost 20 mph sooner, on average, than the front-drive cars equipped > with winter tires." didn't you understand? If the main criteria is who can get to 20 mph the fastest then yes AWD is the answer. Unfortunately, there is more to driving then who can be quickest. I would rather be able to avoid an incident through steering or braking as opposed to out-accelerating it. There is nothing more satisfying then seeing an SUV, that has blown by me on a snow covered road, in the median a short time later. HMMM... guess that AWD/4WD didn't help you when you had to do something besides accelerate. > And what part of "Our advice. Consider an all-wheel-drive vehicle if you > live in a snowy area or want added peace of mind. For maximum traction, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > tires wear quickly on dry roads (plan on about three winters of use). > And be sure to opt for ABS on any vehicle." didn't you catch? HUH? Is this an endorsement for winter tires? > AWD is best in snowy areas. Winter tires should SUFFICE (emphasis added > so you can't miss it) in less-snow areas. "These tires (referring to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Matt Is this Brian under an assumed name? > Is this Brian under an assumed name? No it's just that AWD is NOT the solution to better winter driving. If you read the OP he says a couple of things that should have been the logical extension of this thread. 1)"The vehicle has never behaved badly on snowy roads, or slushy roads, just ice." And then goes on about how the front end is heavy so in his estimation the car should be better on ice. This is one point of discussion - should a car that is front-end heavy be better on ice (my response is no why would you expect more mass to be better than less when the coefficient of friction is less?) 2)"Anybody out there have similar experience with Hyundai and ice?" I don't think there were many answers to this 3)"I run my tires high (35-40 psi), would lowering that help?" Was there any response to this? I'm not going to get into your and Brian agreement to disagree. All I am saying is that for all-around winter driving where snow and ice are more than an occasional occurrence winter tires make a difference. Your post that I responded to even said the same "For maximum traction, equip it with winter tires. In less-snowy areas, front-wheel drive and a set of winter tires should suffice. Mount winter tires on all four wheels for balanced handling." Of course this didn't seem to make an impression on you so you needed to add "The only thing they left out is that all-season tires also suffice in most areas of the country." Well excuse me but we really aren't talking about most areas of the country. I thought that the discussion was about areas of the country with snow and ice conditions where WINTER (my emphasis) tires do make a difference that even your supporting quotes seem to say. Just because you perceive that someone is siding with Brian does not mean that it is Brian under an assumed name. >>>>> It's not all about being able to take off. It's also about being >>>>> able to stop, avoid, etc. [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > almost 20 mph sooner, on average, than the front-drive cars equipped > with winter tires." didn't you understand? I understand that they accelerate faster, but what part of "Better traction won't guarantee shorter stops. Braking distances on ice were about the same for the all-wheel- and front-wheel-drive cars." didn't you understand? As far as I'm concerned, acceleration is a minor consideration and it's meaningless if you can't stop or turn. AWD/4WD does nothing to help either and 4WD systems can actually increase stopping distances and adversely affect cornering if the hubs are locked. Look it up, Matt. You also ignored this paragraph: "Winter tires yielded the biggest snow-traction gain for the buck, however. Using them helped the front-drive cars reach 20 mph nearly 28 feet sooner than they did with all-season tires. Cost: about $400 for four winter tires plus another $200 or so for an extra set of wheel rims to ease the switch to winter tires." Gee, I wonder who's been saying that all along? > And what part of "Our advice. Consider an all-wheel-drive vehicle if you > live in a snowy area or want added peace of mind. For maximum traction, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > winter tires) WEAR QUICKLY on dry roads. Again, emphasis added since > you missed this the first time around. Winter tires DO suffice and they perform better than ASRs, exactly as the article states. If I lived in an area where deep snow was common and AWD was truly needed (the risk of getting stuck was high), I'd own an AWD vehicle and as the article recommends, I'd equip it with snow tires, too. I don't seen any benefit to AWD with ASRs compared to front-drive with snow tires for the type of conditions I typically face. Acceleration is the least important factor in winter driving safety and again, you don't gain anything in stopping or cornering with AWD. The fact that it accelerates better creates a belief in drivers that traction is better than it actually is and the result is many of them get in trouble. OTOH, snow tires improve ALL aspects of performance in slippery conditions. Shame on Consumer Reports for not testing cornering and braking, as it would shed an entirely different light on the subject. >>>>>> It's not all about being able to take off. It's also about being >>>>>> able to stop, avoid, etc. [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > stopping distances and adversely affect cornering if the hubs are > locked. Look it up, Matt. If I can't get out of my driveway, then stopping is irrelevant. I just gave you a long post detailing when AWD helps and when it doesn't, and it helps in almost every condition except braking. However, 4WD can even help in braking. Why do you want me to do your homework for you? Couldn't find it either and hoping my search skills are better than yours? :-) > You also ignored this paragraph: "Winter tires yielded the biggest > snow-traction gain for the buck, however. Using them helped the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Gee, I wonder who's been saying that all along? I didn't ignore and had no reason to. I agree with it. I've simply said that most people don't NEED more traction and thus ANY additional cost is a waste of money. Moreover, winter tires are WORSE in the conditions that prevail MOST of the time - dry roads. >> And what part of "Our advice. Consider an all-wheel-drive vehicle if >> you live in a snowy area or want added peace of mind. For maximum [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > slippery conditions. Shame on Consumer Reports for not testing cornering > and braking, as it would shed an entirely different light on the subject. Acceleration may be the least important parameter purely for safety, but that isn't true for utility. If I can't get out of my driveway and up the hills, then being able to stop isn't even a consideration. And I handle the stopping very simply by not following too closely. I've driven in winter conditions for more than 30 years with ASR tires and have never rear-ended another vehicle or hit something because I couldn't stop in time. Matt >>>>>>> It's not all about being able to take off. It's also about being >>>>>>> able to stop, avoid, etc. [quoted text clipped - 105 lines] > that isn't true for utility. If I can't get out of my driveway and up > the hills, then being able to stop isn't even a consideration. So let me see if I have this straight. - You choose to drive a front-drive car, rather than AWD/4WD AND - You choose to use tires that provide inferior traction to snow tires It seems to me like you're saying one thing and doing another, Matt. I believe they call that "hypocrisy". > And I > handle the stopping very simply by not following too closely. I've > driven in winter conditions for more than 30 years with ASR tires and > have never rear-ended another vehicle or hit something because I > couldn't stop in time. Neither have I. So what? All that means is that we're both driving within the ability of our vehicles to handle the conditions. Snow tires provide an extra margin in the case of unexpected circumstances and I'm glad to have it. I've driven relatively comfortably through conditions where other vehicles around me were struggling and in some cases literally sliding off the road. I'll bet that if I offered them snow tires, they would have taken them in a heartbeat. ;-) >>>> Considering how much of the country lies in the "snow belt", that's >>>> a pretty ridiculous statement. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I have to disagree with you here. I find modern all-season tires very > good in snow. You can't simply make a blanket statement like that, as there are dramatic differences in performance among the myriad tires labeled as "all season". As I said before, I drive a lot of rental cars and I've had to use many of them in snow and most of the performance of the tires on them have range from "reasonably acceptible" to "downright dangerous". NONE of them have been what I would call good performers in snow, compared to my winter tires. Keep in mind that all of these cars have had relatively low mileage on them, so the tires with in good shape. Whether you believe it or not, the difference IS quite substantial. > You can't simply make a blanket statement like that, as there are dramatic > differences in performance among the myriad tires labeled as "all season". [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > on them, so the tires with in good shape. Whether you believe it or not, > the difference IS quite substantial. I do agree that there are a ton of what I consider to be pure junk ASR's out there. Mainly in the touring tire category. It's not hard to find a nice soft, quiet tire that is junk in any condition other than cruising down dry interstates. They hydroplane badly, they corner badly, and they are as useless as slicks in the snow. That said - I've had no trouble finding perfectly acceptable ASR's that serve me well year round. Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net >> You can't simply make a blanket statement like that, as there are dramatic >> differences in performance among the myriad tires labeled as "all season". [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > useless as slicks in the snow. That said - I've had no trouble finding > perfectly acceptable ASR's that serve me well year round. And fleet rental cars don't exactly come with top'o the line tires. Matt >>> You can't simply make a blanket statement like that, as there are >>> dramatic differences in performance among the myriad tires labeled as [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > And fleet rental cars don't exactly come with top'o the line tires. That's certainly true, but they typically come with the same tires that the same vehicle is equipped with for consumer purchases. The few that I've actually looked at - generally because I was trying to figure out what was wrong with them - have all been major brand tires and popular models. >> You can't simply make a blanket statement like that, as there are dramatic >> differences in performance among the myriad tires labeled as "all season". [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > interstates. They hydroplane badly, they corner badly, and they are as > useless as slicks in the snow. That's exactly what my experience has been. > That said - I've had no trouble finding > perfectly acceptable ASR's that serve me well year round. I certainly wish the cars I've been forced to drive had something like that on them. I have yet to find ANY ASR that comes close to the performance of winter tires in snow. I have to wonder if you might think differently if you had the chance to do back-to-back comparisons on the same car(s), as I have? That always seems to be the stumbling block with most people. As I've said before, the people I've convinced to try winter tires have ALL been stunned at the difference. Essentially, they didn't realize what they were missing, which is understandable. Tire companies have done a great job of selling the "all season" myth. >>> You can't simply make a blanket statement like that, as there are >>> dramatic differences in performance among the myriad tires labeled as [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > didn't realize what they were missing, which is understandable. Tire > companies have done a great job of selling the "all season" myth. There is no myth so it must have been a REALLY hard sell! Matt >>>> You can't simply make a blanket statement like that, as there are >>>> dramatic differences in performance among the myriad tires labeled [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > There is no myth so it must have been a REALLY hard sell! Wow Matt, that's a really strong argument! You must have been the star of your high school debate team. >>>>> You can't simply make a blanket statement like that, as there are >>>>> dramatic differences in performance among the myriad tires labeled [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > Wow Matt, that's a really strong argument! You must have been the star > of your high school debate team. It sure beats your "I'm Brian and this is my opinion therefore it must be fact" line of argument. You have yet to provide a SINGLE independent reference in support of any of your claims. I rest my case. Actually, I was a very good member of my high school debate team. Then again, in a real debate your "it is true because I say it is true" line of argument simply isn't accepted. Only independent references are acceptable. It is obviously that you weren't even on a debate team in high school. Matt >>>>>> You can't simply make a blanket statement like that, as there are >>>>>> dramatic differences in performance among the myriad tires labeled [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > be fact" line of argument. You have yet to provide a SINGLE independent > reference in support of any of your claims. I rest my case. Yeah, that will be the day. Matt, I have the evidence that proves you wrong right on my car. I have direct experience with both types of tires on multiple vehicles. You call it "opinion", I call it fact, as I've lived it. You've never done any of it and you haven't provided a single test that compares snow tires and ASRs back to back. The articles you posted actually support my position more than your own, but you simply ignore those parts, as others here have pointed out. If there's anyone here who's arguing strictly on opinion, it's YOU, Matt. > Actually, I was a very good member of my high school debate team. Then > again, in a real debate your "it is true because I say it is true" line > of argument simply isn't accepted. The only place that's been done here is in your mind, Matt. I have never once said anything of the kind. > Only independent references are > acceptable. It is obviously that you weren't even on a debate team in > high school. Let's see. You've got a pre-determined bias and you completely ignore all evidence to the contrary, as others have pointed out. You fabricate issues and you blatantly mis-state your opponent's position, which simply undermines your own credibility and highlights your desperation. You divert the subject when you get cornered by your own lies, hypocrisy and fabrications. If that's what you call a debate, you couldn't debate your way out of a paper bag. I hope you don't have to make a living convincing people to believe you. Then again, you sound a lot like a politician... >>>>> Considering how much of the country lies in the "snow belt", that's >>>>> a pretty ridiculous statement. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > have had relatively low mileage on them, so the tires with in good > shape. Whether you believe it or not, the difference IS quite substantial. I drive a lot of rental cars also (10 a year at least) and find no problem in snow. I was in Fargo, ND just last week. Not a lot of snow, but the -34F with -50F wind chill was interesting. Matt >>> Perhaps it's time you tried a set of dedicated winter tires on your >>> cars. Your dismissive statements are typical of people who've never [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Considering how much of the country lies in the "snow belt", that's a > pretty ridiculous statement. No, most of the people in the snow belt are like me and simply don't need snow tires. I did a quick search and was not able to find any detailed figures on USA tire sales by type, but I'll bet my 2% figure isn't far off as the fraction of total tire sales annually that are winter tires. Matt > No, most of the people in the snow belt are like me and simply don't > need snow tires. I did a quick search and was not able to find any > detailed figures on USA tire sales by type, but I'll bet my 2% figure > isn't far off as the fraction of total tire sales annually that are > winter tires. Sales statistics are no indicator of need or efficacy, simply of buying trends. A good example of that is the large percentage of people that buy SUVs vs. how many actually have a real need for one. I could easily argue that less than 2% of drivers have any real need for an SUV. I could also reasonably argue that many - if not most - SUV buyers would be better off in many ways if they bought a car and a set of snow tires instead of an SUV. >> No, most of the people in the snow belt are like me and simply don't >> need snow tires. I did a quick search and was not able to find any [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > be better off in many ways if they bought a car and a set of snow tires > instead of an SUV. Neither is your opinion about snow tires any indicator of need or efficiency or tread life. Matt >>> No, most of the people in the snow belt are like me and simply don't >>> need snow tires. I did a quick search and was not able to find any [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Neither is your opinion about snow tires any indicator of need or > efficiency or tread life. If it were merely an opinion, that would be true. I have the experiences to back it up. >>>> No, most of the people in the snow belt are like me and simply don't >>>> need snow tires. I did a quick search and was not able to find any [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > If it were merely an opinion, that would be true. I have the experiences > to back it up. Your experiences are only the basis for your opinion. Many more of us have experiences exactly counter to yours. I assert that the odds are very high then that the majority of us are correct and you are not when you assert that everyone needs winter tires. Matt >>>>> No, most of the people in the snow belt are like me and simply >>>>> don't need snow tires. I did a quick search and was not able to [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > very high then that the majority of us are correct and you are not when > you assert that everyone needs winter tires. Please Matt, do tell us how many cars you've done back-to-back comparisons of ASRs (or summer tires) with winter tires. I've done it on 6 vehicles with three brands of winter tires and at least 6 or 7 brands of ASRs. While that's hardly the "test to end all tests", it's a lot more credible than simply spewing "ASRs work well enough" over and over again, and making up bogus disadvantages for winter tires, with no comparative experience whatsoever. I never once said that "everyone" needs winter tires. That's just another of your pathetic attempts to discredit my position by making things up. As for being in the minority, I have no problem with that, as the majority is not necessarily right, they just have other priorities, as I alluded to earlier. Perhaps I should have added "I don't want to hear it." and "I'm too stubborn to listen to reason." to my previous list. ;-) I have no problem with us disagreeing on the need for winter tires. We're both big boys and we can make our own choices. However, if you're going to try to justify your position by posting false or misleading information and outright fabrications, I'm going to call you on it. This could have been a useful debate that presented both sides and helped others reading it make informed decisions, but sadly, it's become just another internet pissing contest. >>>>>> No, most of the people in the snow belt are like me and simply >>>>>> don't need snow tires. I did a quick search and was not able to [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > others reading it make informed decisions, but sadly, it's become just > another internet pissing contest. Again, for at least the 3rd time, provide even a SINGLE reference that shows that a SINGLE thing I've written was false or misleading. If you can't, then there is nothing to "call me" on. Matt >>>>>>> No, most of the people in the snow belt are like me and simply >>>>>>> don't need snow tires. I did a quick search and was not able to [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > shows that a SINGLE thing I've written was false or misleading. If you > can't, then there is nothing to "call me" on. Ah yes, I forgot that in your world references mean everything, but evidence and experience means nothing. Welcome to the real world, Matt. ;-) "Brian Nystrom" <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote in message >> I'm not against snow tires at all, I just don't need them ... like 98% of >> the rest of the folks in the USA. There are 2% who need them and they >> should buy and use them. > > Considering how much of the country lies in the "snow belt", that's a > pretty ridiculous statement. Maybe not. Back in the 50's, I remember putting full chains on my father's car for the first couple of days after a snow. Main roads were poorly plowed, side streets were not plowed at all. We lived in Philadelphia and a 6" snow was a lot. I've since moved to Connecticut and 10" to 12" is common. I've never thought about snow tires. Why? They plow frequently, they plow well, they treat the streets. In the worst storms here, if I can get out of my driveway, I can get most anyplace. Like anyplace else, you have to use common sense and slow down in snow. If there is slick ice, no car is going to fare well, no matter what tire is on it. SignatureEd http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/ > "Brian Nystrom" <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote in message >>> I'm not against snow tires at all, I just don't need them ... like 98% of [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > common sense and slow down in snow. If there is slick ice, no car is going > to fare well, no matter what tire is on it. Well, studded tires help a lot on ice. :-) Although, I haven't felt the need for studs since the 70s. Matt |
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