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Car Forum / Hyundai Cars / April 20080w 20 Oil??
I was at the local Wal-Mart seeing if the price of my Mobil 1 5w 20 went up any and there in a nice green bottle was Mobil 1 0w 20 oil stating that it protects the same as 5w 20?? Is this hype, trying to cash in on the green bandwagon, or would it really give you better gas mileage like the bottle says? I say it is probably a marketing scam. >I was at the local Wal-Mart seeing if the price of my Mobil 1 5w 20 went up >any and there in a nice green bottle was Mobil 1 0w 20 oil stating that it >protects the same as 5w 20?? Is this hype, trying to cash in on the green >bandwagon, or would it really give you better gas mileage like the bottle >says? I say it is probably a marketing scam. If you say it is a marketing scam, show us some fact and figures. Supposition does not matter much here. How about if Mobil 1 shows me facts proving that I will get better mileage using 0w 20 instead of 5w 20? >>I was at the local Wal-Mart seeing if the price of my Mobil 1 5w 20 went >>up any and there in a nice green bottle was Mobil 1 0w 20 oil stating that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > If you say it is a marketing scam, show us some fact and figures. > Supposition does not matter much here. > How about if Mobil 1 shows me facts proving that I will get better mileage > using 0w 20 instead of 5w 20? Ask them. If you didn't, they you are just making up your idea of a marketing scam. I'd imagine they have test data available to back up their advertising claims while you have nothing but BS so far. You made a statement that you can't back up. Until you do, you are just a marketing scam yourself. >> Is this >> hype, trying to cash in on the green bandwagon, or would it really give >> you better gas mileage like the bottle says? I say it is probably a >> marketing scam. EP> If you say it is a marketing scam, show us some fact and figures. EP> Supposition does not matter much here. Ed, calm down. Hoof was merely putting out feelers as to what other group member felt. At least that is how I read his post. Look at the above again. He asked a question then made a suggestion based on his initial feeling. FWIW I saw the same oil and had a similar gut feeling. I felt that, as with so many marketing campaigns these days, slapping the words "green''and ''organic" on products is good for business. Regarding the oil, the only way I see it delivering on its claim is reduced friction losses. Put the same weight of ''non green" synthetic next to it in a test scenario and I bet any differences would be so insignificant as to render the usage of "green''as BS. Best Regards Wayne Moses <wayne.moses@comcast.net> Fri, 04 Apr 2008 07:25:14 -0500 > >> Is this > >> hype, trying to cash in on the green bandwagon, or would it really give [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Look at the above again. He asked a question then made a suggestion based > on his initial feeling. At your request, I took the time to re-read the original question. I've not changed my mind. > I was at the local Wal-Mart seeing if the price of my Mobil 1 5w 20 went > up any and there in a nice green bottle was Mobil 1 0w 20 oil stating > that it protects the same as 5w 20?? Is this hype, trying to cash in on > the green bandwagon, or would it really give you better gas mileage like > the bottle says? I say it is probably a marketing scam. It's legit. 0 weight oils are commonly used in Europe, with 0W-40 being more or less the "standard" there now. There's no question it'll improve fuel economy. How much are and whether it'll be noticeable are things I cannot answer. As others have alluded, I'm sure others have done the tests and can back it up. The idea is pretty simple, actually. Lighter weight oils have lower viscosity and therefore result in less oil drag on engine components. Of course, this doesn't imply everyone should put 0w-20 oil in their engines. Use only the oil weights specified in your owner's manual for your climate. -- Message posted using http://www.talkaboutautos.com/group/alt.autos.hyundai/ More information at http://www.talkaboutautos.com/faq.html Thanks, I assume with my 07 Elantra I should stick with the recommended 5w-20? > There's no question it'll improve fuel economy. How much are and whether > it'll be noticeable are things I cannot answer. As others have alluded, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > http://www.talkaboutautos.com/group/alt.autos.hyundai/ > More information at http://www.talkaboutautos.com/faq.html I,d stick with what the manufacturer of the car states. They designed the car and specified an oil , the other mob design an oil and then try to "fit" the car. > Thanks, I assume with my 07 Elantra I should stick with the recommended > 5w-20? [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> http://www.talkaboutautos.com/group/alt.autos.hyundai/ >> More information at http://www.talkaboutautos.com/faq.html > Thanks, I assume with my 07 Elantra I should stick with the recommended > 5w-20? That's the safe bet, but if the same engine is sold in a different market and has different oil recommendations, either should work. I don't know if that's the case here. >> Thanks, I assume with my 07 Elantra I should stick with the recommended >> 5w-20? > > That's the safe bet, but if the same engine is sold in a different market > and has different oil recommendations, either should work. I don't know if > that's the case here. Let's get down to cases. If you use Mobil "0" weight oil and your engine is ruined, just how difficult do you think it will be to make Mobil pay for your new engine? >>> Thanks, I assume with my 07 Elantra I should stick with the recommended >>> 5w-20? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > is ruined, just how difficult do you think it will be to make Mobil pay > for your new engine? Easy. Just provide the engine parts analysis, oil analysis and professional engineer's findings. Cant take more than a couple of years to gather the data. >>> Thanks, I assume with my 07 Elantra I should stick with the recommended >>> 5w-20? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ruined, just how difficult do you think it will be to make Mobil pay for > your new engine? Let's be realistic rather than paranoid, shall we? How likely are you to EVER get ANY oil manufacturer to pay for ANY engine damage? For that matter, how likely are you to EVER have ANY engine damage that's related to oil FAILURE, as opposed to improper maintenance? Let's also keep in mind that while 0W oils are not yet common here, they've been used in Europe for years. The difference between 0W-20 and 5W-20 is that the former flows better at lower temperatures. That's it. They both have the same viscosity rating at the high temp end of the scale and should therefore provide the same protection/lubrication. The major advantage of the lighter base stock would be most evident in colder climates and conditions, where it would flow better and distribute faster, improving both fuel mileage and cold-start lubrication. In warmer climates, the difference would be negligible. Is the '07 Elantra the first year of the re-design, or the last year of the old one? And, in any case, did the engine change one bit during the re-design (I get the impression the answer is 'no'). The Kia Spectra uses basically the exact same 2.0L engine. Mine specifies 5W20/30. That is a strange designation, but I have a hunch it means that either 5/20 or 5/30 is acceptable. I use the 5/20 in Winter and 5/30 in Summer, always using synthetic oil. I doubt I will have trouble, and also doubt I will fiddle with a 0W weight, even in synthetic. One more question about the 0W oils. Would that not cause a lot of problems for things like valve cover gaskets? Through the years, I have already had enough trouble, and enough cars that had oil seep through them at some point, and that, of course, was heavier 5W oil. Maybe one more reason to stick only with what the manufacturer recommends. >> Thanks, I assume with my 07 Elantra I should stick with the recommended >> 5w-20? > > That's the safe bet, but if the same engine is sold in a different market > and has different oil recommendations, either should work. I don't know if > that's the case here. > Is the '07 Elantra the first year of the re-design, or the last year of the > old one? And, in any case, did the engine change one bit during the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Summer, always using synthetic oil. I doubt I will have trouble, and also > doubt I will fiddle with a 0W weight, even in synthetic. I don't blame you for not experimenting. I would try a 0 weight oil if it wasn't for the fact that all I can find around here is Mobil one in quarts, which costs double what I pay for the synthetic oil I've been buying in 5 quart jugs. > One more question about the 0W oils. Would that not cause a lot of problems > for things like valve cover gaskets? Through the years, I have already had > enough trouble, and enough cars that had oil seep through them at some > point, and that, of course, was heavier 5W oil. Why would it make any difference? Once the oil is hot, the base weight of the oil makes little or no difference. All xW-20 (or xW-30) oils are going to be similar in viscosity when hot. In my experience, if a valve cover gasket is installed onto a clean head and valve cover and the bolts are properly tightened, it won't leak. If a leak does develop (usually due either to the bolts loosening or being overtightened and splitting the gasket) the only way to get rid of it reliably is to clean the surfaces completely and replace the gasket. >> Is the '07 Elantra the first year of the re-design, or the last year >> of the old one? And, in any case, did the engine change one bit [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > splitting the gasket) the only way to get rid of it reliably is to clean > the surfaces completely and replace the gasket. I wish I knew if that were the case. I believe that oils are tested only at two temperatures, and I believe (this is from memory so don't take it to the bank) these are 0 and 100 degrees C. I'd like to see a full viscosity vs. temperature as I'd be really surprised if the 0W20 oils were completely equivalent to 5W-20 at the hot end. There is no free lunch and I'll bet you lose something at the top to gain at the bottom temp range. I don't own a car that allows both 0W20 and 5W20, but I have a 2003 Chrysler minivan that allows both 5W30 and 10W30. Since both are 30 at the hot end, your argument above says that they are equivalent when hot, right? However, the chart in my Chrysler owner's manual suggests otherwise. The temperature range for the 5W30 runs from 100F downward with an arrow that doesn't end. The range for 10W30 starts at 0F and runs upward with no end. It runs past 100F whereas the 5W30 line ends exactly at 100F. So, for temps above 100F, ONLY 10W30 is allowed. I can't say that the same holds true for the 20 weight oils, but I have a strong suspicion that it does. So, yes, anyone can experiment if they want and use 0W20 in a car for which only 5W20 is specified, but I wouldn't do that with my car, at last not during the warranty period. Matt "Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message > I wish I knew if that were the case. I believe that oils are tested only > at two temperatures, and I believe (this is from memory so don't take it > to the bank) these are 0 and 100 degrees C. I'd like to see a full > viscosity vs. temperature as I'd be really surprised if the 0W20 oils were > completely equivalent to 5W-20 at the hot end. There is no free lunch and > I'll bet you lose something at the top to gain at the bottom temp range. Perhaps the certifications are done at two temperatures, but I'd have to think that major oil companies that spen millions of $$$ on research have tried the oils at other temperatures and plotted curves. Any worthwile engineer would have done that just out of curiosity. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil The governing SAE standard is called SAE J300. This "classic" method of defining the "W" rating has since been replaced with a more technical test where a "cold crank simulator" is used at increasingly lowered temps. A 0W oil is tested at -35°C, a 5W at -30°C and a 10W is tested at -25°C. The real-world ability of an oil to crank in the cold is diminished soon after put into service. The motor oil grade and viscosity to be used in a given vehicle is specified by the manufacturer of the vehicle (although some modern European cars now make no viscosity requirement), but can vary from country to country when climatic or mpg constraints come into play. Oil circulates through the piston oil rings to cool and lubricate the compression rings. Inside gasoline engines, the top compression ring is exposed to temperatures as high as 500°F. but I have a 2003 > Chrysler minivan that allows both 5W30 and 10W30. Since both are 30 at > the hot end, your argument above says that they are equivalent when hot, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > upward with no end. It runs past 100F whereas the 5W30 line ends exactly > at 100F. So, for temps above 100F, ONLY 10W30 is allowed. Sure, the typical owner's manual has a perfect engineering data and gives exact specifications on such things. Matt, you know better. It is stated that way to make it easy for consumers to decide what oil to buy. If you happened to have 5W in the crankcase from your last change and suddenly found yourself down south at 101 degrees, should you immediately shut down the engine and have the car towed to an oil change shop? > "Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message >> I wish I knew if that were the case. I believe that oils are tested only [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > compression rings. Inside gasoline engines, the top compression ring is > exposed to temperatures as high as 500°F. You don't trust your owner's manual, but you trust Wiki? That is really funny! I haven't laughed this hard in a week!! > but I have a 2003 >> Chrysler minivan that allows both 5W30 and 10W30. Since both are 30 at [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > found yourself down south at 101 degrees, should you immediately shut down > the engine and have the car towed to an oil change shop? I never said it was "perfect engineering" data, whatever that is. I've been an engineering for 25 years and I've never heard of such an animal. However, the fact remains that the top end of the chart is different and I suspect it is different for a reason. It would be easier for Chrysler to just recommend 5W30 for ALL conditions and make it real easy for the consumer to decide. The fact that they specify a different oil for operation above 100F says to me that they feel 10W30 provides better high temp protection than 5W30. I've seen no engineering data, perfect or otherwise, that tells me how either oil performs across the full temperature spectrum. I'd love to see it though, but in the meantime I'm going to use the oil as specified in my owner's manual as that is the best information I have ... almost certainly better than Wiki!! Matt "Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message > You don't trust your owner's manual, but you trust Wiki? That is really > funny! I haven't laughed this hard in a week!! Apples and oranges. The owners manual was in regard to two choices. Wiki was in regard to testing methods that show more than two temperatures. They do get some things right or at least close enough. > The fact that they specify a different oil for operation above 100F says > to me that they feel 10W30 provides better high temp protection than 5W30. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > owner's manual as that is the best information I have ... almost certainly > better than Wiki!! You may be right, but the 100 degree cutoff as specified in the manual is not accurate either. I'm confident that there is plenty of overlap near the specified 100 degree mark. 5W will not suddenly fail at 101 degrees. > "Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message >> You don't trust your owner's manual, but you trust Wiki? That is really [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > not accurate either. I'm confident that there is plenty of overlap near the > specified 100 degree mark. 5W will not suddenly fail at 101 degrees. Yes, I agree 100% that 100 F isn't a "fall off the cliff" number. That wasn't my point. The point is that the 10W30 shows a higher temperature suitability than does 5W30 even though the "hot" viscosity number is the same for both oils. I was getting my BMW motorcycle reading for riding and decided to check the owner's manual for it and found the exact same thing. It shows two multigrade oils with the same upper end viscosity number, but different "winter" numbers and the oil with the lower "winter" number is also limited on the high temperature end whereas the other oil isn't. I think these were heavier grades with a 40 or 50 weight upper end, but the chart was exactly analogous to the Chrysler chart. So, I personally do not think one can say that just because the upper viscosity numbers for two different range multigrade oils are the same, that they have the same performance in hot conditions. Matt |
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