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Car Forum / Jaguar Cars / October 2004

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Browns Lane

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David Betts - 11 Oct 2004 07:44 GMT
There doesn't seem to have been much discussion in here about Jaguar's
current financial difficulties or the closure of the Browns Lane
assembly plant - which surprises me seeing as we're supposed to be
Jaguar enthusiasts :-(> - but the latest JEC mag editorial makes a
number of interesting points.

In particular it reminds us that - despite the magic of the Browns
Lane name - the company was actually founded in Blackpool; the first
'Jaguars' were conceived at Foleshill; and far more Jaguars are
produced at Castle Bromwich and Halewood than were ever produced at
Browns Lane.

It also points out that part of the Browns Lane site will be retained
as Jaguar's head office and for the Jaguar Heritage Trust, which will
hopefully be able to expand... so no need to take those 'Brown Lane'
signs off our garage walls.

Main problem for Jaguar at present is, of course, the strength of the
dollar, which makes the cars overly expensive in the essential US
market. The JEC mag welcomes the fact that all Jaguar production is
being retained in the UK, but I suspect that is rather short-sighted.
Surely it is time for Ford to provide Jaguar with a US manufacturing
facility. After all, BMW and Mercedes assemble their US product in the
US, as do most of the Japanese.

David Betts (davidb@motorsport.org.uk)
The Classic Car Gallery: http://www.ofoto.com/I.jsp?m=17830847103&n=398038677
Jerry McG - 11 Oct 2004 15:54 GMT
> There doesn't seem to have been much discussion in here about Jaguar's
> current financial difficulties or the closure of the Browns Lane assembly
> plant - which surprises me seeing as we're supposed to be Jaguar
> enthusiasts :-(> <

Jaguar stands to lose in excess of $1 billion this year, chiefly because of
Halewood and the moribund X-Type. The latter is a product of that idiot Jac
Nasser declaring Jaguar would become a "volume" manufacturer, and then
forcing the bogus "Mondeo-With-a-leaper" X-Type onto the organization. In
doing so, he also forced that old Ford dungeon of a plant, Halewood, on
Jaguar, which we didn't need, and a product, X-Type, that we didn't want. It
would be laughable if it weren't so sad the damage these decisions have
caused.

Before Nassers stupid decision, EVERY piece of research from customers,
owners & dealers said DO NOT leverage Ford platforms and call them Jaguars.
Nasser and his band of thugs brushed it all aside. By now they've failed
miserably and are gone, but the good folks at Jaguar and the City of
Coventry are left to live with the mess.

Forcing Halewood onto Jaguar killed productivity. There was PLENTY of unused
capacity at Castle Brom which could have been used to build the X-Type.
Halewood was a POLITICAL decision that meant Ford would not have to deal
with fallout from shutting the place down. That Nick Barter and his team got
that place running as well as they did shows the kind of talent that was
within the Jaguar organization. These are PRE-Ford Jaguar guys.

<- but the latest JEC mag editorial makes a number of interesting points. In
particular it reminds us that - despite the magic of the Browns Lane name -
the company was actually founded in Blackpool; the first 'Jaguars' were
conceived at Foleshill; and far more Jaguars are produced at Castle Bromwich
and Halewood than were ever produced at Browns Lane.>

Oh, horsefeathers! It's not about the numbers, it's about the entire magic
of the marque, and no more magic was ever produced in the automotive world
than at Brown's Lane: XK120, XK140, XK150, E-Type, MarkII, XJ6 Series 1 - 3,
the list goes on. Despite their problems, no one ever doubted the pedigree
of those cars. The Ford-based "faux-Jaguars" being built at Castle Brom and
Halewood are, as Ford was warned, destroying the marque.

> It also points out that part of the Browns Lane site will be retained as
> Jaguar's head office and for the Jaguar Heritage Trust, which will
> hopefully be able to expand... so no need to take those 'Brown Lane' signs
> off our garage walls.>

Place no money on those statements. This is just a red herring from the
reptilian Ford finance thugs. Within a year they'll announce the lot will be
moved to Castle Brom, or, heaven forbid, to Solihul. Halewood will produce
the next generation Freelander alongside the X-Type, which will share a
platform!!!! Boy, here's a way to screw up BOTH brands!

As an aside, we former Jaguar employees want the world to note that at
Browns Lane, Jaguar did EVERYTHING Ford asked: labor reductions, massive
increases in productivity and by now among the highest product quality
ratings in the industry. Yet, despite Ford promises to the contrary, Brown's
Lane will be closed. Conversely, Land Rovers Hell-hole at Solihul produces
the WORST quality in the industry, it's historically militant workers are
woefully inefficient, yet it is to be spared. Anyone with a brain now
understands Ford decision making has become lunacy.

> Main problem for Jaguar at present is, of course, the strength of the
> dollar, which makes the cars overly expensive in the essential US market.<

Oh, nonsense, BMW, MB, Lexus all have to deal with the same issue. IT's THE
CARS, STUPID! No buyer in the luxury segment wants a tarted up Ford when
they can get a BMW or MB without a compromised pedigree. Right or wrong,
potential Jaguar buyers read in every automotive publication that Jaguar
products have become Ford knock-offs and they simply go elsewhere. Meanwhile
XJ8 is getting some of the best ratings in segment, yet the public now
thinks it's just a another Ford....what a colossal cock-up on the part of
Ford management!

< The JEC mag welcomes the fact that all Jaguar production is being retained
in the UK, but I suspect that is rather short-sighted. Surely it is time for
Ford to provide Jaguar with a US manufacturing facility. After all, BMW and
Mercedes assemble their US product in the US, as do most of the Japanese.>

The BMW, MB and Lexus products produced in the US are for the most part
SUVs. Their core products are still produced in Europe/Japan. Only the BMW
Z4 and Lexus ES300 (a Toyota Camry) are the exception. Lexus sells a great
number of the ES's, but remember Lexus does not face the same marque
scrutiny as Jaguar, and frankly, the public trusts Toyota far more than they
do Ford.

Sadly, I fear you are correct. Ford will ultimately be forced to either sell
off Jaguar, which will be virtually impossible with the loss of Brown's
Lane, or further rationalize it into oblivion. We only have to look at the
mess Ford has made of Lincoln and Mercury  here in the States to see the
damage that's likely to be wrought.

Through the late 80's - mid-'90's, we at Jaguar worked miracles to save the
Company and its exclusivity. It only took a few morons at the top of Ford to
flush virtually the entire effort down the drain. Don't make excuses for
them, they're idiots.
David Betts - 11 Oct 2004 17:08 GMT
>> There doesn't seem to have been much discussion in here about Jaguar's
>> current financial difficulties or the closure of the Browns Lane assembly
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Jaguar stands to lose in excess of $1 billion this year, chiefly because of
>Halewood and the moribund X-Type.

Hey folks. Mad Jerry is back. X-type happens to be selling like hot
cakes - particularly the estate and the diesels.

David Betts (davidb@motorsport.org.uk)
The Classic Car Gallery: http://www.ofoto.com/I.jsp?m=17830847103&n=398038677
Jerry McG - 11 Oct 2004 19:36 GMT
> Hey folks. Mad Jerry is back. X-type happens to be selling like hot
> cakes - particularly the estate and the diesels.>

Much to the chagrin of some, Jaguar (and the rest of the Euro luxury marques
for that matter) succeed or fail based upon North American sales. Here in
the States X-Type is selling at less than 60% of it's original sales target
and is a marketplace disaster. It's being sold at the current rate only
because Jaguar have put a $5,000 per unit incentive to get them out of the
ports and off dealer lots.

YTD 3rd qtr 2004 unit sales for X-Type are 17061, an annualized rate of
22748. That represents 57% of its original annual sales target (40,000
units).

By comparison, BMW has sold over 80,000 3 Series in the same period, MB has
sold over 49,000 C Class, Lexus over 55,000 ES330s. In other words, in its
segment, X-Type sells at a rate not even HALF that of its competition.

By any measure, it is a STIFF in the marketplace! But, worse, it has
developed a horrid marketplace rep for quality, throwing Jaguar Cars back at
least a decade in terms of its quality reputation. The only bright spot,
each sale is at a financiual loss to the Company, thus the lower sales rate
holds down the financial hemorraging that's reulted from this ill-concieved
and executed "faux-Jaguar".

S-Type fares not much better. 3rd qtr ytd sales are 8896, an annualized
11861, or 59% of original target (20,000). At least many of the original
Ford-mandated technical carbunkles have been exorcised from the product.

That notwithstanding, it remains a marketplace flop. Over the same period
YTD 2004 BMW has sold 32,617 5 Series, MB has sold 41,442 E Class.  Thus,
S-Type sells at a rate approximately 1/3 of it's closest competitor, BMW 5
Series, and at less than 25% of the segment leader, MB E Class.

At the point where I retired from Jaguar Cars North America in early '00,
JCNA had been profitably selling 22,000 - 25,000 XJs & XKs per year in North
America. Yet 2004 ytd combined XJ & XK sales are only 9613 units, an
annualized 12817. That represents a sales rate WORSE than the dark days of
'91 - '92 when we were hanging on only becuse Ford had other problems to
deal with.

Perhaps XK can be excused for having become an aging old dowager, but XJ is
a spanking new, cutting edge product that has gotten rave press reviews and
is bringing in fantastic quality scores. Due to ineffectivem, tepid
marketing efforts, no one knows anything about it. This amounts to a
marketing scandal.

At this point three of the four Jaguar products are uncompetitive and
obsolete. Where is the Ford product plan for Jaguar? Nowhere to be found.
Best they have to offer is a "new" all-aluminum XK in '06. So, where'd the
money go they had planned for Jaguar under Wolfgang Reitzle? Simple, they've
shifted it to Land Rover and have left Jaguar to swing in the breeze.

You can make excuses for them all you like, Mr. Betts, but something is
clearly wrong with the Ford organization to have allowed this mess to happen
at Jaguar. Jaguar's fading star isn't about exchange rates, it's about BAD
MANAGEMENT, and the sooner Ford faces reality the sooner a rescue plan can
be put in place.

(Sales figures = October 4, 2004 Automotive News)

> David Betts (davidb@motorsport.org.uk)
> The Classic Car Gallery:
> http://www.ofoto.com/I.jsp?m=17830847103&n=398038677 
webserve - 11 Oct 2004 19:17 GMT
Actually,
  I am not so sure I totally disagree with Jerry.

Here in the States, there is NO estate wagon or diesel X-Types -- only the
standard fare.

While I am at heart a classic Jag owner, I must admit that the 2000 Black on
Black XJR my friend just bought is one of the most impressive motorcars I
have driven!  Then again, for $21,000 with only 49,000 miles  --- how could
he have gone wrong!!

To this day, Jaguar suffers from the poor dealership network and even poorer
service departments.  It is a shame. Since the 1940s, Jaguar has built a
premier motorcar and supported it with slipshod support. It is because of
the service after the sale that Jaguar suffers from a poor reputation.

Webserve

> > There doesn't seem to have been much discussion in here about Jaguar's
> > current financial difficulties or the closure of the Browns Lane assembly
[quoted text clipped - 90 lines]
> flush virtually the entire effort down the drain. Don't make excuses for
> them, they're idiots.
Jerry McG - 11 Oct 2004 19:47 GMT
> To this day, Jaguar suffers from the poor dealership network and even
> poorer service departments.  It is a shame. Since the 1940s, Jaguar has
> built a premier motorcar and supported it with slipshod support. It is
> because of the service after the sale that Jaguar suffers from a poor
> reputation.>

Actually, Web, in 1998 Jaguar scored second best in JD Power CSI customer
handling, bested only by Lexus, and at that by a scant three points out of a
potential 1000. Other internal, and external measures showed Jaguar was
among the top 5 brands in customer service across the entire industry. Then
along came Jac Nasser and his merry band of finance thugs & HR idiots.

With S & X type volume increase forecasts, we developed a plan to expand the
dealer network and manage the expansion of service infrastructure to match
sales volumes. We also were working on a per dealer basis to improve
efficiencies and profitability. Then along came Jac Nasser and the entire
plan was lost. The Company struggled to keep it's way while being shoved
together with Volvo, Lincoln & Land Rover in the PAG. Knowledgeable &
experienced staff were shunted aside in deference to inexperienced Ford MBA
career-builders with no "dog in the fight", and no commitment to Jaguar at
all.
Worse, a Ford globalization plan tore the entire North American parts
distribution process asunder, taking what was at one point best in class
parts availability and dropping it to the bottom of segment.

Dealers were thus left to survive on their own wits, and many lost faith in
the brand. It's a sad commentary, but Ford have "screwed the pooch" where
Jaguar is concerned.

Sadly, the entire mess could have been avoided.
Ron - 11 Oct 2004 21:31 GMT
>> There doesn't seem to have been much discussion in here about
>> Jaguar's current financial difficulties or the closure of the Browns
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> product, X-Type, that we didn't want. It would be laughable if it
> weren't so sad the damage these decisions have caused.

I take it you are a 'yank'.

No one else would be stupid enough to make a comment like that!
The X-Type is the biggest seller....peanut!

Ron McGrice
Australian, just like Jac Nasser.
Al Marzo - 11 Oct 2004 21:56 GMT
>>> There doesn't seem to have been much discussion in here about
>>> Jaguar's current financial difficulties or the closure of the Browns
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>Ron McGrice
>Australian, just like Jac Nasser.

Facts is facts, whether yank or wannabe!  
Jerry McG - 11 Oct 2004 22:07 GMT
> I take it you are a 'yank'.>

You take it right...

> No one else would be stupid enough to make a comment like that!<

Like what? That X-Type is DOG in the marketplace? Hell, just read the papers
or look up the sales figures. If it's not a flop, perhaps you can explain
why production has been cut by 15,000 units and they're putting $5,000 a car
on them just to get them off dealer lots!

Oh, and the latest bit of good news, X-Type just failed a government side
impact test. All over the North American media.

> The X-Type is the biggest seller....peanut!>

Uh, X-Type is a LOSER, cashew.  I hate to make you deal with facts, but read
the sales numbers.

> Ron McGrice
Australian, just like Jac Nasser.>

You have my sympaties. I'm sorry I have to be affiliated with any PLANET
that total idiot, Jac Nasser inhabits.
Ron - 12 Oct 2004 02:31 GMT
>> The X-Type is the biggest seller....peanut!>
>
> Uh, X-Type is a LOSER, cashew.  I hate to make you deal with facts,
> but read the sales numbers.

Hate to spoil your run, the USA is not the only country in the world, where
Jag-Wahs are sold...

The X-Type is popular in other european countries.

The failing yanky dollar is the reason you yanks are not buying Jaguars!

Sounds like a bush problem to me .. LOL
Grasshopper - 12 Oct 2004 03:09 GMT
> Sounds like a bush problem to me .. LOL

The issues between you and your wife are best left off this newsgroup!  :-)

Signature

____________________________
Ah,  Young Grasshopper.
Sometimes it is eyes that blind a man.

Ron - 12 Oct 2004 04:46 GMT
>> Sounds like a bush problem to me .. LOL
>
> The issues between you and your wife are best left off this newsgroup!
>  :-)

Thankyou.
General Schvantzkoph - 12 Oct 2004 03:27 GMT
>>> The X-Type is the biggest seller....peanut!>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Sounds like a bush problem to me .. LOL

It's not the weak dollar, if it were then Mercedes, Lexus and Acura
wouldn't be selling either. The reviews of Jaguars have all been poor and
they have a reputation for unreliablity. Jaguars are the most beautiful
cars on the road, unfortuately the car underneath the body has a
generally considered to be mediocre. I'm in the market for a new car so
I've been reading several auto newsgroups. People who post to this one are
much more negative then in any of the other groups that I've been reading.
Acura owners are universally enthusiastic. Lexus owners are also very
positive. In the Chrysler group people either love or hate the looks of
the new 300C but there is no debate about how fantastically well it
drives. In this group people talk about the awful service they get from
Jaguar. Most of the posts are about old Jags, there is hardly any talk
about new ones. That says something to me. This is supposed to be an
enthusiasts group so where's the enthusiasm?
Jerry McG - 12 Oct 2004 03:55 GMT
> It's not the weak dollar, if it were then Mercedes, Lexus and Acura
> wouldn't be selling either. <

Precisely.

<The reviews of Jaguars have all been poor and they have a reputation for
unreliablity. >

Not completely, I direct you to this months Automobile Magazine, in which
the new XJ8L receives a superb review. Quality figures and ratings on XJ, XK
& S-Type are excellent. The "faux Jaguar", Ford-based X-Type gets mediocre
to poor quailty ratings, however, and since it sells in the greatest
numbers, thus goes Jaguar's quality rep.

>Jaguars are the most beautiful cars on the road, unfortuately the car
>underneath the body has a generally considered to be mediocre.<

A time-honored view that, while not true in recent years as regards XJ & XK,
has been  reinforced by the Ford-based S and X-Types.
Ron - 12 Oct 2004 04:32 GMT
>>>> The X-Type is the biggest seller....peanut!>
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> It's not the weak dollar, if it were then Mercedes, Lexus and Acura
> wouldn't be selling either.

Don't they have factories in america ?

> The reviews of Jaguars have all been poor
> and they have a reputation for unreliablity.

Used to!

> Jaguars are the most
> beautiful cars on the road, unfortuately the car underneath the body
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> me. This is supposed to be an enthusiasts group so where's the
> enthusiasm?

Well, most entusiasts own the older more unreliable Jaguars :-)
I have three so one is always on the road :-)

New ones are to ford for me, the X and S being the worst.
Mind you, we do have an aussie late model ford falcon as well.

Jaglovers is a better place for in depth discussion on Jaguars, new and
old.  This one is good because it does not have the what tyre, what oil,
what spark plug, etc, crap, of Jaglovers.org.

Ron
Jerry McG - 12 Oct 2004 03:50 GMT
> Hate to spoil your run, the USA is not the only country in the world,
> where Jag-Wahs are sold...<

However, it is the country where the MOST Jaguars are sold, and when they
don't sell here the Company is in trouble.

> The X-Type is popular in other european countries.>

X-Type doesn't come close to competitive sales numbers in any European
Country.

> The failing yanky dollar is the reason you yanks are not buying Jaguars!>

If that were the case we wouldn't be buying Audis, BMWs, MBs & Lexus
products in record or near record numbers.
Ron - 12 Oct 2004 04:45 GMT
>> Hate to spoil your run, the USA is not the only country in the world,
>> where Jag-Wahs are sold...<
>
> However, it is the country where the MOST Jaguars are sold, and when
> they don't sell here the Company is in trouble.

Oh deary me, quick, raise the stars and stripes and start waving, the
whole world is in trouble....

>> The X-Type is popular in other european countries.>
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> If that were the case we wouldn't be buying Audis, BMWs, MBs & Lexus
> products in record or near record numbers.

Don't you yanks build them in america?

Jaguar is made in the UK, not USA or Asia.

Have a look at this:

Jaguar's UK sales reach record level Oct 5 2004

Jaguar has offset a slump in the US by recording its best September sales
figures in the UK. The luxury car maker said in advance of official
industry data due to be released later this week that it sold in excess
of 6,200 vehicles last month.

The drive was led by Jaguar?s best-selling model, the X-Type, of which
27,000 have been sold so far this year, 19 per cent up on the same period
last year.

The XJ and S-Type saloons and the XK sports car all saw sales gains in
the UK during the month.

Jaguar sales in the US dipped by 39.1 per cent to 3,671 last month and
were 19.5 per cent down the year.

?US sales are disappointing, but UK sales have been increasing throughout
the year and the first six months were our best ever,? a Jaguar spokesman
said. ?This is good news from our perspective because we are gaining
sales in an increasingly competitive market.?

Jaguar?s line up has been boosted by the launch of a diesel-powered
variant of the S-Type, built at Castle Bromwich, and an estate version of
the X-Type, built at Halewood on Merseyside.

http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100localnews/tm_objectid=
14720170&method=full&siteid=50002&headline=jaguar-s-uk-sales-reach-
record-level-name_page.html


Jerry McG - 12 Oct 2004 13:25 GMT
> Oh deary me, quick, raise the stars and stripes and start waving, the whole world is in trouble.... <

Nice to see Mr. Howard was re-elected...

> Don't you yanks build them in america?<

See my earlier post. With the exception of the small volume BMW Z4, and the Lexus ES330, the only products made in the States by BMW, MB or Lexus are trucks. Audi builds no prioducts at all in North America. Competitors' cars are all imported, thus they're susceptible to the same currency fluctuations as Jaguar and it isn't hurting them a bit.

> Jaguar is made in the UK, not USA or Asia.>

No $#it?

> Have a look at this:

> Jaguar's UK sales reach record level Oct 5 2004
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> variant of the S-Type, built at Castle Bromwich, and an estate version of
> the X-Type, built at Halewood on Merseyside.

Ok, Mr. Ostrich, have a look at Automotive News 10/04/04:

Headline: "Jaguar Slashes Long Term Volume Hopes"

PARIS -- Awash in red ink, Jaguar Cars has abandoned its long-term goal of selling 200,000 vehicles a year globally.

The chastened outlook follows parent Ford Motor Co.'s announcement last month that it would close Jaguar's historic Browns Lane factory and sell Jaguar's Formula One racing team.

Jaguar produces about 125,000 cars annually.

Company executives declined to say what they believe is a realistic production target.

"Jaguar's strategy is being re-evaluated. We're not going to be a 200,000-unit car company," said Mark Fields, executive vice president in charge of Ford's Premier Automotive Group, in an interview at the Paris auto show.

"That business model didn't offer a high chance of achieving profit. We're going to be a more focused and smaller company than we were a few years back."
Joe Greenwell, president of Jaguar and Land Rover, said: "I don't want a situation where year-over-year sales are up, but we have substantial losses. We don't want to wind up with unsold stock because that leads to residual value issues and other reputational issues."

The 200,000 goal was announced in 1997 when Jacques Nasser was CEO of Ford and current President Nick Scheele ran Jaguar. The goal was part of the decision to create the X-Type sedan, which proved a disappointment.

Premier does not break out financials for each brand. But sources have revealed that Jaguar lost close to $800 million in the first half of 2004. U.S. sales this year through August were down 11.5 percent to 31,899 compared with the same period of 2003.

Ford COO Jim Padilla did not rule out any steps to turn Jaguar around.

"Nothing is off the table," he said. He declined to elaborate.

In other words, my roo-dodging, South of the Equator pal, NOTHING CAN BE DONE outside North America to recoup these sales. Ford's strategy with X-Type is a brand-killer. It was Jac-The-Moron Nasser who hosed Jaguar with this X-Type/Halewood debacle and now Coventry and the Jaguar team gets to pay the price.  
Ron - 12 Oct 2004 21:37 GMT
>> Oh deary me, quick, raise the stars and stripes and start waving, the
> whole world is in trouble.... <
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
>
> Ok, Mr. Ostrich, have a look at Automotive News 10/04/04:

Your kidding, tenth of APRIL 2004?????

I'm talking about NOW!!!!
Jerry McG - 12 Oct 2004 22:46 GMT
> Your kidding, tenth of APRIL 2004?????
> I'm talking about NOW!!!!>

In proper American 10/04/04 means October 4, 2004. (Sheesh, what a peanut!)
Ron - 12 Oct 2004 23:12 GMT
>> Your kidding, tenth of APRIL 2004?????
>> I'm talking about NOW!!!!>
>
> In proper American 10/04/04 means October 4, 2004. (Sheesh, what a
> peanut!)

Proper american LOL...

Poor immitation of english and totally out of step with the rest of the
world!

f.cking idiot!
Jerry McG - 13 Oct 2004 00:35 GMT
>>> Your kidding, tenth of APRIL 2004?????
>>> I'm talking about NOW!!!!>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> f.cking idiot!

Apparently since you've run out of facts, you're now forced to use childish
insults.

Most Aussies I've known were quite polite, did you wash up on shore
somewhere, or are you the byproduct of your father's weird sexual encounters
with marsupials?
Ron - 13 Oct 2004 01:24 GMT
>>>> Your kidding, tenth of APRIL 2004?????
>>>> I'm talking about NOW!!!!>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> somewhere, or are you the byproduct of your father's weird sexual
> encounters with marsupials?

A real live one!

I've got a better idea.. "PLONK"
David Betts - 13 Oct 2004 07:40 GMT
>>> Your kidding, tenth of APRIL 2004?????
>>> I'm talking about NOW!!!!>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>f.cking idiot!

Of course he is. Stop feeding the troll. I'd hoped for an interesting
discussion in this thread. This newsgroup really is a waste of time.

David Betts (davidb@motorsport.org.uk)
The Classic Car Gallery: http://www.ofoto.com/I.jsp?m=17830847103&n=398038677
Ron - 13 Oct 2004 08:16 GMT
>>>> Your kidding, tenth of APRIL 2004?????
>>>> I'm talking about NOW!!!!>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Of course he is. Stop feeding the troll. I'd hoped for an interesting
> discussion in this thread.

Yes

> This newsgroup really is a waste of time.

Not always.

> David Betts (davidb@motorsport.org.uk)

> The Classic Car Gallery:
> http://www.ofoto.com/I.jsp?m=17830847103&n=398038677 

Is this a new way of selling without SPAM?
Blake Dodson - 13 Oct 2004 04:08 GMT
> Sounds like a bush problem to me .. LOL

I hate to break this to you Ron..... but you are right, it is a Bush
problem!

Because of Bush SUV's (Large thirsty 4x4) are the hot item. People are
going out in herds to purchase these monsters that get less than 15
mpg and cost as much or even more than a Jaguar. The Jag gets upwards
to 27 mpg and that simply wont do...........its un-american and its
not wasteful enough. C'mon what is more American than making our
country dependant on foreign oil (Most oil companies are owned by
european companies I might add.)?

Furthermore, if you think America's problems are Bush's fault, then
you have been at the front of the Scrum for too long. Perhaps you
should sit the next round out. ;-)

America's problems stem from the public de-educational system,
individual selfishness, and public complacency. We have had terrorist
issues going back to the early 70's; 911 was just an official
proclamation of this war.

I just love these Kerry voters....their hungry SUV's prove thay
approve of Bush and the oil system, yet their lips flap differently.
Strange. I hope Kerry wins so all of these idiots diving these beasts
will go broke when he taxes the living sh.t out of gasoline, and
raises our taxes for more police, more police, more police. Dont
forget more police. And once we get more police then we'll need more
jails, and more jails, and more jails. Then when we have all of
that...we will need to fill those jails wont we?  HEIL Mein Heinz-57!
<heels clicking>

I say shoot Bush then Kerry. No wait... Kerry then Bush, and anyone
that truly thinks a President *really* runs a country.

Anarchy baby!! I have prepared 3/4", T6 plate steel armour ready to be
mounted on my Scout....hail the days of the Road Warrior!!! Let's make
some space on this Earth.  <Just Kidding>

Blake
Ron - 13 Oct 2004 04:45 GMT
>> Sounds like a bush problem to me .. LOL
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> country dependant on foreign oil (Most oil companies are owned by
> european companies I might add.)?

Unfortunately, that is the growing trend down under too.  I hate the
bloody things, can't see around them in car parks, block you forward view
when they are in front, most NEVER go off road but are used by women
doing the shopping and taking kids to school!!!

> Furthermore, if you think America's problems are Bush's fault, then
> you have been at the front of the Scrum for too long. Perhaps you
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> I say shoot Bush then Kerry. No wait... Kerry then Bush, and anyone
> that truly thinks a President *really* runs a country.

Good luck :-)
You'd be better off cleaning the 'Muslim' arabs off the earth first.

> Anarchy baby!! I have prepared 3/4", T6 plate steel armour ready to be
> mounted on my Scout....hail the days of the Road Warrior!!! Let's make
> some space on this Earth.  <Just Kidding>
>
> Blake

Do they still make those International Scouts?

Have not seen one for years :-)

Ron
Blake Dodson - 13 Oct 2004 21:04 GMT
<SNIP>

> > Anarchy baby!! I have prepared 3/4", T6 plate steel armour ready to be
> > mounted on my Scout....hail the days of the Road Warrior!!! Let's make
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Ron

No production ceased in 1984. I love this "Beast", as I call it, it
simply does things very well on and off the road.

Here are some of my additions to an already awesome farm machine.

International V8, 392 c.i.
Holley throttle body fuel injection, 675 cfm.
More aggressive camshaft-270 duration, .470" valve lift.
Custom dual valve springs.
Competition Cams* valve lifters.
Custom Ross Pistons with pin bosses lowered .125". (Raised piston
crown flush with block deck.)
Axle air-lockers.
Higher arched, heavier springs.
6" body lift.
3.30 to 1 final ratio spinning 33" tires = Corrected final ratio of
3.00 to 1.

Calculated 5000 rpm = 150 mph +-3%. I pulled to 135 before the fear of
a tire failure stopped me. I am confident this 4x4 can achieve 150mph,
yet at 70mph I can obtain 20mpg.  My friend stated one day while on
the highway - "This Beast approaches cars as if to eat them". Off road
abilty is simply stunning.

Once I am done playing with my toy I put it away and drive my Diesel
Peugeot 505. Its more conservative and responsible. ;-)

Blake
Ron - 13 Oct 2004 21:33 GMT
> <SNIP>
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>
> Blake

Wow, some beast :-)
I had a couple of Peugoet 504's many years back, lovely cars, but no as
good as the D-Super Citroen I also had :-)

Ron
 
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