Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
HomeAnnouncements
Discussion Groups
By Brand
BMWChevroletDodgeFordGMHondaLexusMercedes-BenzNissanPeugeotToyotaVolkswagenOther Brands
By Topic
4x4 CarsRVsDrivingMaintenance & RepairCar AudioCollectible Cars
Country Specific
Australian ForumsUK Forums
ArticlesAuto InsuranceBuyingCars & TechnologyMaintenanceMiscellaneousSafety
DMV Resources
Related Topics
MotorcyclesBoatsMore Topics ...

Car Forum / Jaguar Cars / August 2004

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Oil question

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Grasshopper - 01 Aug 2004 21:08 GMT
I just bought a 2005 S Type 4.2 on Friday.  I asked the service department
if I could use Mobil One and they said no  - Jaguar does not recommend the
high performance synthetic oils available on the market.    Is Jaguar out of
their minds?!?!?!?!   I don't want to do dinosaur oil if I don't have to.

Signature

____________________________
Ah,  Young Grasshopper.
Sometimes it is eyes that blind a man.

H.R. - 27 Aug 2004 06:51 GMT
My dealer said that the cars come with dino oil and that's what they use on
lube jobs.
I have M-1 in mine right now.

> I just bought a 2005 S Type 4.2 on Friday.  I asked the service department
> if I could use Mobil One and they said no  - Jaguar does not recommend the
> high performance synthetic oils available on the market.    Is Jaguar out of
> their minds?!?!?!?!   I don't want to do dinosaur oil if I don't have to.
Al Marzo - 27 Aug 2004 13:28 GMT
Lots of old wives tales about oil and many folks are afraid to commit
to using M1, especially at their prices.  Fact is that the more you
use your vehicle, the better the synthetics are.  The less you use it,
the less beneficial.  If yours is just a weekend ride, keep the dino
oil, it will stick to those engine parts and provide lube upon
startup.  M1 and the like are very slippery and won't hold on in
periods of long rest.  Now I absolutely love the M1 grease.  Use it
all the time, even on vehicles that don't stay connected to the earth!

>My dealer said that the cars come with dino oil and that's what they use on
>lube jobs.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>of
>> their minds?!?!?!?!   I don't want to do dinosaur oil if I don't have to.
jeremy - 28 Aug 2004 07:47 GMT
Al Mares wrote:
>  If yours is just a weekend ride, keep the dino
> oil, it will stick to those engine parts and provide lube upon
> startup.  M1 and the like are very slippery and won't hold on in
> periods of long rest.  Now I absolutely love the M1 grease.  Use it
> all the time, even on vehicles that don't stay connected to the earth!

This is an example of an old wives tale, the synthetic oils, despite
lower viscosity, have higher adhesion than dino oil and provide
extremely long term protection during periods of disuse.

Shell has a great site explaining the differences if you chose to do the
research.

JJ
Ron the Barbarian - 28 Aug 2004 08:29 GMT
> Al Mares wrote:
>>  If yours is just a weekend ride, keep the dino
>> oil, it will stick to those engine parts and provide lube upon
>> startup.  M1 and the like are very slippery and won't hold on in
>> periods of long rest.  Now I absolutely love the M1 grease.  Use it
>> all the time, even on vehicles that don't stay connected to the earth!

Why use it?
I thought Jagwahs were self lubricating, leaks out the engine and covers
every mechanical device under it. To do the front end, travel in reverse
:-)
Graham L - 28 Aug 2004 13:56 GMT
> Why use it?
> I thought Jagwahs were self lubricating, leaks out the engine and covers
> every mechanical device under it. To do the front end, travel in reverse
> :-)

Ron,
You heard that Jaguar didn't go ahead with a plan to make refrigerators
because they couldn't get them to leak oil.
I know my old girl doesn't have any rust problems down the middle (come to
think of it, the Jag doesn't either)

Graham
Ron the Barbarian - 28 Aug 2004 22:50 GMT
>> Why use it?
>> I thought Jagwahs were self lubricating, leaks out the engine and
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Graham

LOL :-)
Al Marzo - 28 Aug 2004 14:34 GMT
>> Al Mares wrote:
>>>  If yours is just a weekend ride, keep the dino
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>I thought Jagwahs were self lubricating, leaks out the engine and covers
>every mechanical device under it. To do the front end, travel in reverse

The leaks serve to indicate there is oil present.  ;-)
Al Marzo - 28 Aug 2004 14:33 GMT
Wow, isn't THAT a hoot!  I do keep up with it pretty well being hobby
based in piston aviation, where an engine failure could not only cost
the price of a new XJR, but could cost you your life, but thanks for
the suggestion.  Until I can find and review it, I'll stand by the
research that's been done and reported on the side where dino and
semi-synthetic are the choices.  Funny though, I only recently
attended a professional seminar given by Shell Oil on the correct way
to make the choice among lubricants.  Shell Oil does offer both types,
and their month old data and suggestions are what I've attempted to
explain to the participants here.  Possibly it would be best for you
to do real research rather than perusing marketing materials on the
web.

>Al Mares wrote:
>>  If yours is just a weekend ride, keep the dino
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>JJ
jeremy - 28 Aug 2004 14:40 GMT
> Wow, isn't THAT a hoot!  I do keep up with it pretty well being hobby
> based in piston aviation, where an engine failure could not only cost
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> to do real research rather than perusing marketing materials on the
> web.

Molecular bonding between the lubricant and heat stressed, friction
bearing surfaces was more than a web search. Laugh all you like,
aviation was not a hobby in my family, but serious business.

JJ
Al Marzo - 29 Aug 2004 00:13 GMT
>> Wow, isn't THAT a hoot!  I do keep up with it pretty well being hobby
>> based in piston aviation, where an engine failure could not only cost
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>JJ
Then obviously you either weren't listening or chose not to.  I'll
allow you the final word in this discussion as I am done, so make it a
good one.
jeremy - 29 Aug 2004 09:24 GMT
> Then obviously you either weren't listening or chose not to.  I'll
> allow you the final word in this discussion as I am done, so make it a
> good one.

Lubrication is of two general types based on the operating environment;
that is, load and speed of the equipment and viscosity of the lubricant.
Smooth surfaces separated by a layer of lubricant do not come into
contact and, hence, do not contribute to frictional forces. This
condition is called hydrodynamic lubrication. Boundary lubrication, on
the other hand, arises when there is intermittent contact between
surfaces, resulting in significant frictional forces.

Dynamic viscosity is usually reported in poise (P) or centipoise (cP,
where 1 cP = 0.01 P), or in SI units as pascal-seconds (Pa-s, where 1
Pa-s = 10 P). Dynamic viscosity, which is a function of only the
internal friction of a fluid, is the quantity used most frequently in
bearing design and oil flow calculations.

Because it is more convenient to measure viscosity in a manner such that
the measurement is affected by oil density, kinematic viscosity is
normally used to characterize lubricants. Kinematic viscosity of a fluid
equals its dynamic viscosity divided by its density, both measured at
the same temperature and in consistent units. The most common units for
reporting kinematic viscosity are stokes (St) or centistokes (cSt, where
1 cSt = 0.01 St), or in SI units as square millimeters per second
(mm2/s, where 1 mm2/s = 1 cSt).

Dynamic viscosity in centipoise can be converted to kinematic viscosity
in centistokes by dividing by the fluid density in grams per cubic
centimeter (g/cm3) at the same temperature. Kinematic viscosity in
square millimeters per second can be converted to dynamic viscosity in
pascal-seconds by multiplying by the density in grams per cubic
centimeter and dividing the result by 1000.

Other viscosity systems, including Saybolt, Redwood, and Engler, have
also been used because of their familiarity to many people. The
instruments developed to measure viscosity in these systems are rarely
used. Most viscosity determinations are made in centistokes and
converted to values in other systems.

The viscosity of any fluid changes with temperature, increasing as
temperature decreases, and decreasing as temperature rises. Viscosity
may also change with a change in shear stress or shear rate.

To compare petroleum base oils with respect to viscosity variations with
temperature, ASTM Method D 2270 provides a means to calculate a
viscosity index (VI). This is an arbitrary number used to characterize
the variation of kinematic viscosity of a petroleum product with
temperature. The calculation is based on kinematic viscosity
measurements at 40 and 100°C. For oils of similar kinematic viscosity,
the higher the viscosity index, the smaller the effect of temperature.

The benefits of higher VI are: 1. Higher viscosity at high temperature,
which results in lower engine oil consumption and less wear. 2. Lower
viscosity at low temperature, which for an engine oil may result in
better starting capability and lower fuel consumption during warm-up.

The measurement of absolute viscosity under realistic conditions has
replaced the conventional viscosity index concept in evaluating
lubricants under operating conditions.

Another factor in viscosity measurements is the effect of shear stress
or shear rate. For certain fluids, referred to as Newtonian fluids,
viscosity is independent of shear stress or shear rate. When viscosity
is affected by changes in shear stress/shear rate, the fluid is
considered non-Newtonian.

Kinematic viscosity measurements are made at a low shear rate (100 s-1).
Other methods are available to measure viscosity at shear rates that
simulate the lubricant environment under actual operating conditions.
Different instruments used to measure kinematic viscosity are:

1. Capillary Viscometers measure the flow rate of a fixed volume of
fluid through a small orifice at a controlled temperature. The rate of
shear can be varied from near zero to 106 s-1 by changing capillary
diameter and applied pressure. Types of capillary viscometers and their
mode of operation are:

Glass Capillary Viscometer — Fluid passes through a fixed-diameter
orifice under the influence of gravity. The rate of shear is less than
10 s-1. All kinematic viscosities of automotive fluids are measured by
capillary viscometers.

High-Pressure Capillary Viscometer — Applied gas pressure forces a fixed
volume of fluid through a small-diameter glass capillary. The rate of
shear can be varied up to 106 s-1. This technique is commonly used to
simulate the viscosity of motor oils in operating crankshaft bearings.
This viscosity is called high-temperature high-shear (HTHS) viscosity
and is measured at 150°C and 106 s-1. HTHS viscosity is also measured by
the Tapered Bearing Simulator (see below).

2. Rotary Viscometers use the torque on a rotating shaft to measure a
fluid's resistance to flow. The Cold Cranking Simulator (CCS),
Mini-Rotary Viscometer (MRV), Brookfield Viscometer and Tapered Bearing
Simulator (TBS) are all rotary viscometers. Rate of shear can be changed
by changing rotor dimensions, the gap between rotor and stator wall, and
the speed of rotation.

Cold Cranking Simulator — The CCS measures an apparent viscosity in the
range of 500 to 200,000 cP. Shear rate ranges between 104 and 105 s-1.
Normal operating temperature range is 0 to -40°C. The CCS has
demonstrated excellent correlation with engine cranking data at low
temperatures. The SAE J300 viscosity classification specifies the
low-temperature viscometric performance of motor oils by CCS limits and
MRV requirements.

Mini-Rotary Viscometer (ASTM D 4684) — The MRV test, which is related to
the mechanism of pumpability, is a low shear rate measurement. Slow
sample cooling rate is the method's key feature. A sample is pretreated
to have a specified thermal history which includes warming, slow
cooling, and soaking cycles. The MRV measures an apparent yield stress,
which, if greater than a threshold value, indicates a potential
air-binding pumping failure problem. Above a certain viscosity
(currently defined as 60,000 cP by SAE J 300), the oil may be subject to
pumpability failure by a mechanism called "flow limited" behavior. An
SAE 10W oil, for example, is required to have a maximum viscosity of
60,000 cP at -30°C with no yield stress. This method also measures an
apparent viscosity under shear rates of 1 to 50 s-1.

Brookfield Viscometer — Determines a wide range of viscosities (1 to 105
P) under a low rate of shear (up to 102 s-1). It is used primarily to
determine the low-temperature viscosity of automotive gear oils,
automatic transmission fluids, torque converter and tractor fluids, and
industrial and automotive hydraulic fluids. Test temperature is held
constant in the range -5 to -40°C.

The Scanning Brookfield technique measures the Brookfield viscosity of a
sample as it is cooled at a constant rate of 1°C/hour. Like the MRV,
this method is intended to relate to an oil's pumpability at low
temperatures. The test reports the gelation point, defined as the
temperature at which the sample reaches 30,000 cP. The gelation index is
also reported, and is defined as the largest rate of change of viscosity
increase from -5°C to the lowest test temperature. This method is
finding application in engine oils, and is required by ILSAC GF-2.

Tapered Bearing Simulator — This technique also measures
high-temperature high-shear rate viscosity of motor oils (see High
Pressure Capillary Viscometer). Very high shear rates are obtained by
using an extremely small gap between the rotor and stator wall.
Ron the Barbarian - 29 Aug 2004 10:41 GMT
jeremy <jeremy@dcnet2000.com> wrote in news:41319275.E3E5F4C4
@dcnet2000.com:

<snip the crap>

Rubbish, it is an additive for Jagwahs to leak everywhere, and spot their
territory, just like the 'animal'.  Expensive in some areas, cheap in
others. The cheaper the oil, the better it is, as it has to be changed
often anyway.

Any clown who throws expensive oil in bloody Jaguars has too much money and
no brain.  Common garden variety oil works well in a common car, Jaguars
are nothing special, they are a nice ride, if they were not you would'nt
bother.

If you buy a New Buggatti, put your fancy sh.t oil in it, if you can afford
the car you'll be silly enough to use 'that' oil :-)
jeremy - 29 Aug 2004 15:57 GMT
> If you buy a New Buggatti, put your fancy sh.t oil in it, if you can afford
> the car you'll be silly enough to use 'that' oil :-)

I run a lot of old cars, 480,000 miles on one without a ring job,
290,000 on another, no problems and the one I sold recently had 260,000
with less than a 3% drop in compression and no leaks, and it was made by
the cat people.

Not bad for running in tropical heat and arctic type cold
Blake Dodson - 29 Aug 2004 23:54 GMT
> > If you buy a New Buggatti, put your fancy sh.t oil in it, if you can afford
> > the car you'll be silly enough to use 'that' oil :-)
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Not bad for running in tropical heat and arctic type cold

I have read articles about not using synthetics during the break-in
process because its "too good" and may not allow proper component
seating. Hmm...

I dont think anyone is a dumb dumb for using synthetics as it does
have wonderful properties, its those that go out and pay extra money
for "4X4" oil that make me roll on the floor.

Its a personal choice and that is that!

Blake
Grasshopper - 30 Aug 2004 00:25 GMT
> I have read articles about not using synthetics during the break-in
> process because its "too good" and may not allow proper component
> seating. Hmm...

I don't buy that concept one bit.  Otherwise,  a Corvette, Viper,  Saleen,
Ferrari,  or Lamborghini would never seat.  They all start out with Mobil 1.

At any rate,  I put in Pennzoil Synthetic European Formula  and a Fram
MajorGuard today;  with 970 miles on it.  So,  let's see how it all works
out.

Signature

____________________________
Ah,  Young Grasshopper.
Sometimes it is eyes that blind a man.

Grasshopper - 29 Aug 2004 17:14 GMT
> Rubbish, it is an additive for Jagwahs to leak everywhere, and spot
> their territory, just like the 'animal'.  Expensive in some areas,
> cheap in others. The cheaper the oil, the better it is, as it has to
> be changed often anyway.

No car in 2005 should leak - I don't care if it's a $60K S-Type like I
bought,  or a $16K Taurus.   The quality of the material on seals,  gaskets,
and the metals used to attach heads to blocks should all be enough to
prevert oil leaks,  no?  I have had old cars and old motorcycles that were
always seeping oil.  But *none* of my newer vehicles (03 Z06,  03 Avalanche,
02 GMC 3500,  99 Yukon,  99 Suburban,  96 Grand Cherokee)  have leaked a
single drop of oil.    Now I have an 05 Jag;  and I remain hopeful that it
does not leak a single drop of oil.  If it does,  it's going back to the Jag
dealer for repair.  In this day and age,  nobody should have to expect oil
leaks.  Especially if you fork over $50K to $60K to a Jaguar Dealer.

Signature

____________________________
Ah,  Young Grasshopper.
Sometimes it is eyes that blind a man.

Blake Dodson - 29 Aug 2004 17:57 GMT
> > Then obviously you either weren't listening or chose not to.  I'll
> > allow you the final word in this discussion as I am done, so make it a
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> the other hand, arises when there is intermittent contact between
> surfaces, resulting in significant frictional forces.

<SNIP>

Its good to see your engineering intellect, but all I can say is "What
the hell where you trying to say"? It was no answer, just a info puke.

I have a secret weapon its called a surface modifier. Machined
surfaces when looked under a scope look like a jagged steak knife. I
use a German product that actually slightly sluffs the peaks into the
valleys making a flatter surface. I then use a moly additive. But all
this is for racing and is not worth the cost on a touring car. In my
Jag I simply use oil, oil with at least a "SJ" spec. These
specifications are printed within a circular seal on the back of the
bottle.

Airplanes on the otherhand do need to have some anti-gelling
properties as it can get mighty cold up there. But a Jag is not an
airplane....at least not for very long!  :-)

If your Jag has sat for a long period and you feel that maybe all your
oil is in the pan do the following.... pull your fuel pump relay
(Older cars - pull coil wire and no choke.) and crank the car over a
couple of times, re-install the relay and go on your merry way.

Blake

Rate this thread:






 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.