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Car Forum / Jeep / May 2006Maybe slightly OT. trailer winch wiring
Ok, Here goes.... I am trying to wire an old "unknown" electric winch mounted on the trailer that will be used to haul Jeeps.( there's the slight on topic) I have the idea that it will have a 25' remote with momentary on-off-on toggle, and 4 relays. because the winch couldn't possibly be larger than 3K lb. The question I would have is it nescessary to diode the relays because of the fact i'm not using solenoids? The relays are the typical firewall mount with the terminals 30/51, 85, 86, 87 connections rated at 30amp. I verified that the winch motor terminals(2) are the only electrical contacts. Reverse polarity and reverse motor rotation. No juice provided thru ground of trailer frame I found this link to some wiring diagrams and the last one is almost identical to the one I had thought out and drawn before my I'net search. http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?p=401241 Brian If you are going to put the winch on the trailer, then you may want to put a battery there too. Add the length of your tow vehicle, to the distance from the trailer tongue to the winch motor. That is how much big, fat jumper cable style wire you will need, if you don't. Make it a deep cycle motor home battery, connected to your tow vehicle charging system, with an isolation switch. The relay diagram looks as if it will work. Print three copies, and pencil in what happens, for each switch position. Earle > Ok, > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Brian Hi Earle, I forgot to mention that a battery box is within a foot of the winch. I was guessing 8 gauge, maybe 10 gauge wire from relays to motor and battery to relays. If I knew more about this winch, I wouldn't need to guess the amperage pull off the battery. Brian > If you are going to put the winch on the trailer, then you may want to put > a [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > *** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com *** Bulletsnbrains did pass the time by typing: > Hi Earle, > > I forgot to mention that a battery box is within a foot of the winch. I was > guessing 8 gauge, maybe 10 gauge wire from relays to motor and battery to > relays. If I knew more about this winch, I wouldn't need to guess the > amperage pull off the battery. 12V Amps Watts 3' 5' 7' 10' 15' 20' 25' 50 300 16 14 12 12 10 10 8 100 600 12 12 10 10 6 6 4 150 900 10 10 8 8 4 4 2 200 1200 10 8 8 6 4 4 2  SignatureDougW But you need a bigger box and battery as the original was just big enough for the break-away brakes. God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > Hi Earle, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Brian Hey Bill, The battery is a full size auto battery. I think the intermitent usage of this winch probably doesnt deserve any more than this. Did you check out the link I sent in the OP.? I would sub relays into the circuit instead of solenoids. My concern, do I need to protect the relays with Diodes? This would be on the 30/51 "Load" connection on each relay. It would prevent current flow back into the relays that are unused during the forward or reverse operation. Brian > But you need a bigger box and battery as the original was just big > enough for the break-away brakes. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> >> Brian Hi Brian, I can't think of a reason you would need a diode with a relay. Just hook it up like you see used on a car and starter. With a push button hot triggering the solenoid. God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > Hey Bill, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Brian If you have any electonics near a relay coil, is good idea to use a diode or even better a diode and resistor to get rid of the inductive kick that can literally punch holes in solid state devices. Those need a bit of current and high voltage to deal with the kick. Some folks idiot proof connections with diodes... kinda like the phone sets that work no matter whether tip and ring are reversed or not. L.W.(Bill) Hughes III proclaimed: > Hi Brian, > I can't think of a reason you would need a diode with a relay. Just [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> >>Brian Judging by the size of the three or four diodes in an alternator, they'd be huge, and you think there's still a reason to isolate the solenoid on a trailer? God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > If you have any electonics near a relay coil, is good idea to use a > diode or even better a diode and resistor to get rid of the inductive [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Some folks idiot proof connections with diodes... kinda like the phone > sets that work no matter whether tip and ring are reversed or not. I would. At least on any car that has any sort of solid state devices on it. L.W.(Bill) Hughes III proclaimed: > Judging by the size of the three or four diodes in an alternator, > they'd be huge, and you think there's still a reason to isolate the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >>Some folks idiot proof connections with diodes... kinda like the phone >>sets that work no matter whether tip and ring are reversed or not. What 'are' you going on about? A diode prevents reverse current and eats .8 volts out of the circuit. It has zip to do with surges or spikes or anything else. You don't see diodes on starter relays nor do you see or need them on winch relays. Now if you are screwing around with an LED to show the winch is on or off on a single circuit winch like the OP's, then that LED circuit would need two diodes. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > If you have any electonics near a relay coil, is good idea to use a > diode or even better a diode and resistor to get rid of the inductive [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > >> > >>Brian Mike Romain did pass the time by typing: > What 'are' you going on about? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > off on a single circuit winch like the OP's, then that LED circuit would > need two diodes. Some relay coils have internal diodes. Works like this. coil __________ground ||( | ||( | ||( V diode ||( | ||(_____|____positive The diode clips the impulse that comes out when the coil is turned off. It's put in backwards so it won't flow under normal conditions. A better pic is about halfway down this page http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/components/diode.htm SignatureDougW > Mike Romain did pass the time by typing: > > What 'are' you going on about? [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > -- > DougW That is fine for electronic circuits. A winch uses battery cables and is an 'electric' circuit. No electronics in the circuit to fry. Same for the engine starter. It too uses battery cables and no electronics in the circuit to fry. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) Mike Romain proclaimed: >>Mike Romain did pass the time by typing: >> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > for the engine starter. It too uses battery cables and no electronics > in the circuit to fry. Sorry Mike but you are wrong. That winch may be an "electric" circuit but the wiring to it is connected to "electronic" circuits. If the wiring that connects to the winch and winch controls has enough resistance to help hold down the inductive kick OR if it is really low resistance and inductance AND the other ends terminate at your battery, the inductive kicks *may* be suppressed by either crappy cabling or the fact that a battery makes an excellent suppressor of very high currents. However, if the wiring to the winch is wired such that the inductive kick transients can get to anything electronic before suppressed by the battery or similar, you can damage the electronics. Some folks use diodes....some like me prefer Ovshinsky voltage limiters due to their higher speed, higher operating voltage, generally higher current capability [plus they are only shorting the current above their switching voltage] and their less likelihood to become expensive lumps of conducting silicon if given overcurrentsl Plus you can wire them to offer protection against "the human factor". I've worked with some high current industrial relay setups where the switched load was a motor. Some of those use diodes or a gas discharge tube to snub the inductive kickback generated by the inductive load of the motor in order to reduce the arcing across the relay contacts on break. Seems like overkil in this application, tho. KISS seems to apply. > > Mike Romain did pass the time by typing: > > > What 'are' you going on about? [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) SignatureWill Honea Mike Romain proclaimed: > What 'are' you going on about? An electronics engineering education and reasonably successful career, why? > A diode prevents reverse current and eats .8 volts out of the circuit. > It has zip to do with surges or spikes or anything else. Actually a typical single or parallel junction silicon diode has a typical voltage drop of 700 millivolts across most of the forward bias current range. As for not having zip to to with spikes, you may want to crack an electronics book before going beyond your level of knowledge. > You don't see diodes on starter relays nor do you see or need them on > winch relays. If you open those ISO relays you may find small suppressor resistors on them. Some such as the Bosch round ones have a cheap diode as well. > Now if you are screwing around with an LED to show the winch is on or > off on a single circuit winch like the OP's, then that LED circuit would > need two diodes. LEDs are diodes. If you are switching high current into an inductive load, it helps to have suppression for the inductive kick you get when you drop the current quickly. Sometimes the series inductance of long wiring runs can suppress it enough not to cause damage...or you can cheaply do it with a suppression diode. If you poke around inside some of the black box devices on an electronically controlled vehicle you'll find suppressor diodes and resistors. On the starter, the battery itself acts as a very nice suppressor for the inductive spikes you get as you drop the high current. > Mike > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >>>> >>>>Brian You guys keep talking about electronics..... We are talking winches and starters hooked up to guess what? A battery, which as you say can handle most any spike that comes out of a starter solenoid. You post like an engineer. I am one of the poor techies that has to fix what you engineers overdesign all to sh.t. LOL! Why in the world would someone want to put a diode in a freaking winch circuit that resides on a trailer with its own independent battery power??? For that matter even trying to find a diode that can handle a winch at full load, well.... I like the KISS principle myself.... Mike > Mike Romain proclaimed: > [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > >>>> > >>>>Brian Mike Romain proclaimed: > You guys keep talking about electronics..... We are talking winches and > starters hooked up to guess what? A battery, which as you say can > handle most any spike that comes out of a starter solenoid. > > You post like an engineer. I am one of the poor techies that has to fix > what you engineers overdesign all to sh.t. LOL! Yeah, to quote a fellow engineer...involving a major magic smoke situation where someone decided to redesign a power circuit: "One can only admire the creativity of this field solution...." > Why in the world would someone want to put a diode in a freaking winch > circuit that resides on a trailer with its own independent battery > power??? > > For that matter even trying to find a diode that can handle a winch at > full load, well.... Available, but the suggested diode is not in series so a cheap GE glass/ceramic is overkill. Or just leave them off and use a staged switch where a commercial auto relay already has everything needed. If that battery trailer is connected to a main vehicle during operation, then I'd probably add isolation as well. > I like the KISS principle myself.... I like the KISSbutnottooSS. Mike, The diode is not in series with the load. It is in parallel with the solenoid, to bleed off the rather large voltage spike that can come off of it, when the power is removed. That spike can bypass the battery and anything else in your system, and operating via Murphy's Law will seek out the most fragile electronic component it can find. Even a vehicle battery does not "instantly" absorb a voltage spike of the kind we are talking about. Otoh, this discussion is probably academic. I haven't cut apart a Ford starter solenoid lately, but it probably has something inside of it to avoid lawsuits from fried stereos and PCMs. Lon, I mentioned the isolation switch way back near the beginning of this thread. They are great to have with any trailer electrical system. They give one the option to drive home, in the event the trailer system drains its battery. Earle > Mike Romain proclaimed: > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > I like the KISSbutnottooSS. Then the OP has no worries if the Jeep/Ford starter solenoids he bought should already be 'safe' to use on vehicles eh? Especially on his 'Jeep'... ;-\ Mike > Mike, > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > *** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com *** That's what I'm thinking. But I would definitely wire in an isolation circuit. The kind I am thinking of is diode based, and assures that the trailer electrics only get power from the vehicle alternator, not from the vehicle battery. Any camping supply store should have one in stock, complete with wiring diagram. Earle > Then the OP has no worries if the Jeep/Ford starter solenoids he bought > should already be 'safe' to use on vehicles eh? Especially on his [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > > > > *** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com *** That is a totally different animal and needs to be treated the same as putting a dual battery system into any vehicle. Let's not get the 'engineers' going on that one eh.... As you mention, they make some sweet off the shelf isolators these days that sense the second batteries voltage so it never gets over charged or cooks out the primary battery. I have seen some 'amazing' rube goldburg designs for this that require a University degree and really specialized equipment to set up, come out of 'engineers' posts.... LOL! Mike > That's what I'm thinking. But I would definitely wire in an isolation > circuit. The kind I am thinking of is diode based, and assures that the [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] > > *** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com *** I'd go more for 4 guage at least, 2 guage more likely... or sacrifice a set of those nice big jumper cables or surplus welding cables. Bulletsnbrains proclaimed: > Hi Earle, > [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] >> >>*** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com *** I do not believe the headlight relays are large enough to carry the winch amp load. I stalled my winch once and smoked out the 4? ga. cables hot enough to blow the heat shrink off them. The wiring is the same to just use solenoid relays instead, I would go that route. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > Ok, > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Brian Mike, The relays are 30 amp. The winch is very small, I'm guessing 2500 maybe 3000 lb capacity. I'll post a pic on Alt.Pictures.Binaries.Autos.4x4 in a few minutes. Brian >I do not believe the headlight relays are large enough to carry the > winch amp load. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >> >> Brian To answer the diode question, no you don't need them if you can even find ones that can handle the amps. When the trigger is off the relay is an open circuit. Winches pull a lot more power than you are thinking I think. Mike > Mike, > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > >> > >> Brian Hi Brian, Why don't you use a regular car starter solenoid. Or four of them like Warn. God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > Mike, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Brian In the fire service we used Ford starter relays for high amp applications as they are effective and cheap to replace of you manage to burn one out. The Warn winches I have seen taken apart appear to use them also. >I do not believe the headlight relays are large enough to carry the > winch amp load. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >> >> Brian That's why the picture in the Pirate 4x4 link shows Ford starter solenoids, I think. Hook up a load to the winch, put a clip-on ammeter on the wire, and see how much current it draws. Earle > In the fire service we used Ford starter relays for high amp applications as > they are effective and cheap to replace of you manage to burn one out. [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > >> > >> Brian Some of the older 'big' winches (8-9k rating) can draw up to 400 amps at max capacity. The Ford relays aren't rated that high for sustained use but can handle almost anything reasonable for short periods such as winch use. The last time I bought one was probably 10 years ago and I think it was $4.99, the new modular relays probably cost twice as much, can't take the same load, and it would be difficult or impossible to connect a large gauge wire. Did you notice that Pirate page shows both the 'new' and 'old' relays styles? > That's why the picture in the Pirate 4x4 link shows Ford starter > solenoids, [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > *** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com *** Hi Mike, I decided to take everyones advice on this. I bought 4 Jeep/Ford solenoids at the local Farm & Fleet today. I still need to pick up some wire, but am thinking battery cables might do the trick if I can find them cheap enough. It seems my project is getting more expensive everyday. Anyone know what the minimum gauge on the excite wires should be for these solenoids? I am taking a wild guess and say 18ga. Brian >I do not believe the headlight relays are large enough to carry the > winch amp load. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >> >> Brian If you use battery cables get the 'heavy duty" ones because the ones they sell for standard duty are already too small.... As for the switch wire gauge...... I don't think the stuff Ford used was that large.... but larger is almost always better > Hi Mike, > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] >>> >>> Brian Rule 1: It always cost more than you think. Rule 2: It always takes longer than you think. Rule 3: It never works exactly like you planned anyway. > Hi Mike, > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > >> > >> Brian SignatureWill Honea I would use at least 16 ga., more for mechanical strength than for any other reason. Earle > Hi Mike, > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > >> > >> Brian 18 ga. would be just fine. I used 18 ga and a microswitch to turn on two relays for my Hella Black Magics. Mike > Hi Mike, > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > >> > >> Brian Although it begins to resemble a rube goldbergian kludge, you could tap the high current winding for the winch for the relay drive. To keep the larger wiring budget cheaper by keeping it short... do the same thing modern vehicles do. Drive the big solenoid with a small automotive relay just like the starter relay that controls drive to the starter solenoid on most vehicles. That way, your high current paths are limited to the winch and a very short hunk of wire to and from the starter solenoids outputs. Bulletsnbrains proclaimed: > Hi Mike, > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] >>> >>>Brian Superwinch is a good brand to look up specs on: Their smallest (1000 pound rated) unit draws 92 amps at full load. http://www.superwinch.com/pages/x/ex1.html Power draw goes up (WAY UP!) from there, you have no idea what yours will pull. The last pic should work for your two wire unit. You shouldn't need any diodes, this is all brute force low voltage power circuits. You are going to fry your relays the first time you stall the winch, use Ford (or Jeep!) starter relays. The starter relays are about the same price as the ones you are looking at. > Ok, > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Brian Hey thanks group! The info was informative and was what seemed a great thread considering slightly OT. I'll post photo's of the setup after completion. Brian |
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