Car Forum / Jeep / July 2006
Bill proven wrong some more (took some time).
|
|
Thread rating:  |
Bret Ludwig - 03 Jul 2006 23:55 GMT http://cars.rasoenterprises.com/Propane-Holley.htm
At one time, Holley Carburetors (Colt Industries) were involved in LPG carburetion and modified their gasoline carburetors to supply gaseous fuel. Very little is commonly known about Holley's propane carburetors and, to best of my knowledge, the only reference to them was made in Larry Carley's book.
Gerry Flood, currently of Firexonline was kind enough to provide us with photos of Holley propane carburetors from time he was in the propane conversion business in the early 1980's. His company, Rodagas Energy Systems, also had shops in Toronto and Detroit and converted 350+ vehicles to CNG and 100+ to LPG. They become involved with Holley because Holley was also in the Detroit area at that time. They never made any money on LPG as every conversion was a 'test' or 'trial'. The profit was in selling the fuel. They also converted 10-15 various vehicles to low pressure CNG and even converted a golf cart to CNG for the CEO of the local gas company. He believes that fuel cells and hydrogen are the future, but if one could clean out the impurities from natural gas and store it in carbon, then Natural Gas would be hard to beat.
One of his projects included the conversion of the entire Windsor, ON police department with Holley in the early 80's when they had Plymouth 318cid cruisers. He reports that the conversions worked fine except in the winter when they would chase speeders before their engines warmed up. Then they got a liquid lockup on the vaporizer. He advised them to carry a coke bottle full of water to pour on the vaporizer. Of course, by then, the speeder got away!
Mr Flood got out of the conversion business because he felt that propane was/is a fuel which could not become a major alternative as there is just not enough. They saw natural gas as the real alternative and worked with a consortium of 8 gas companies, including the gas companies in Toronto and Windsor, to develop low pressure CNG. By using a carbon adsorbent in a LPG tank and a refrigerator compressor, their idea was to fill up at home overnight without the high cost and complexity of 3,700psi compressed natural gas. It almost worked. They even used ceramics from the Royal Military College in Kingston. Natural gas is inherently dirty, which doesn't matter when it's burning in your furnace. It matters a lot when filling and emptying a clean carbon filter. It quickly clogs up!
His present mission to change the world is to market a vehicle fire suppression system principally for the Ford Crown Vic, which Ford has developed but can't/won't deliver. His company, Firexonline, is working with Nobel and they are about to introduce a fire suppression system based on their gas generator technology. The system delivers AFFF foam under the car when (or if) the gas tank ruptures and ignites.
He says that he was one of the early pioneers in alternative fuels and the biggest mistake he made was investing his own money! With gasoline prices skyrocketing today, he might want to reconsider getting back into the alternative fuel conversion business.
Holley 1-BBL Propane Carburetor
Holley 2-BBL Propane Carburetor
Holley 4-BBL Propane Carburetor
Holley Propane Regulator/Converter
Jeff DeWitt - 04 Jul 2006 00:09 GMT All very interesting, but I'm curious about that fire suppression system. Those kinds of ruptures and firs just aren't that common, what kind of market is he going after?
Jeff DeWitt
> http://cars.rasoenterprises.com/Propane-Holley.htm > [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > > Holley Propane Regulator/Converter Mike Romain - 04 Jul 2006 00:16 GMT Who besides you gives a sh.t?
And if it took you that long to find that obscure of a 'one off' item to prove Bill wrong, you are a total fool. LOL!
Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
Dave Milne - 04 Jul 2006 07:29 GMT I run LPG in my Wagoneer, so yes, I found it interesting.
Dave Milne, Scotland '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
> Who besides you gives a sh.t? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) L.W.(Bill) Hughes III - 04 Jul 2006 08:34 GMT You running LPG and you complain saying your engine only has "50% of enough" in subject line post: Wagoneer Engine Replacement Choices ? What is this a blonde joke? God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/
> I run LPG in my Wagoneer, so yes, I found it interesting. > > Dave Milne, Scotland > '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ Bret Ludwig - 04 Jul 2006 14:06 GMT > You running LPG and you complain saying your engine only has "50% > of enough" in subject line post: Wagoneer Engine Replacement Choices ? > What is this a blonde joke? It made power fine before.
Dave Milne - 04 Jul 2006 21:25 GMT I'm sure it makes close to 100% of what it did new - it only has 62K miles on it. Just 144hp is 50% of what I'd like.
Dave Milne, Scotland '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
> > You running LPG and you complain saying your engine only has "50% > > of enough" in subject line post: Wagoneer Engine Replacement Choices ? > > What is this a blonde joke? > > It made power fine before. Mike Romain - 04 Jul 2006 21:43 GMT So 'fix' it!
Go for a larger carb or jet or whatever puts the fuel in, a high flow intake with a set of headers and a nice hot coil. Maybe you can Cam it too.
There has to be a nicer or easier way to get oomph than replacing it....
Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
> I'm sure it makes close to 100% of what it did new - it only has 62K miles > on it. Just 144hp is 50% of what I'd like. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > > > It made power fine before. Dave Milne - 09 Jul 2006 22:56 GMT Well, I guess I could try that. I wasn't hopeful I'd get very far with such a low compression ratio. The 401 is a better engine as it has a steel rather than cast crank, but getting one will be hard, and getting anything else will be expensive.
> So 'fix' it! > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > > > > > It made power fine before. Dave Milne - 04 Jul 2006 21:25 GMT Yup, it is quoted *when new* at 144hp for a 5.9 litre 360. Which is pitiful. If it had a more respectible 280hp, that would be enough. I wouldn't have thought that a drag racer like yourself would be defending 31hp per ton ?
Dave Milne, Scotland '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
> You running LPG and you complain saying your engine only has "50% > of enough" in subject line post: Wagoneer Engine Replacement Choices ? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Dave Milne, Scotland > > '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ Jeff DeWitt - 04 Jul 2006 21:45 GMT I just did some digging and at least in 1998 that engine was rated at 225 hp and 335 ft/lb of torque.
Is that 144 with the LPG? It really does sound low.
If it was mine the first thing I'd do is give that engine a through going over including a compression test, timing and all that good stuff, and make sure everything is in good condition. I've driven one of those (would have liked to have kept it), and while it wasn't going to take on any 5.0 Mustangs it had plenty of pep.
If your timing is retarded, or if the timing chain was worn and jumped a notch that might cause your problem.
Whatever is going on unless there is something really wrong with that engine it's going to be a LOT cheaper to fix what you have than spend a bunch of money converting it to something else.
Jeff DeWitt
> Yup, it is quoted *when new* at 144hp for a 5.9 litre 360. Which is pitiful. > If it had a more respectible 280hp, that would be enough. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >>>Dave Milne, Scotland >>>'91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ Dave Milne - 04 Jul 2006 21:58 GMT Well, here is where I got the info from:
http://www.ifsja.org/tech/figures/engines.html
360 AMC V8 / OHV 90-91 144hp 280 lb/ft torque 2bbl Motorcraft.
Compression ratio is only 8.25 : 1
I guess I could try a new Edelbrock manifold and Performer carb.
Dave Milne, Scotland '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
> I just did some digging and at least in 1998 that engine was rated at > 225 hp and 335 ft/lb of torque. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > >>>Dave Milne, Scotland > >>>'91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ Mike Romain - 04 Jul 2006 23:00 GMT You should be able to boost that up easily. Don't forget the exhaust, put more in and it has to have a place to go out...
Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
> Well, here is where I got the info from: > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > >>>Dave Milne, Scotland > > >>>'91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ Earle Horton - 05 Jul 2006 02:07 GMT Dave,
Somewhere in the range of years from 1971 to 1991 they derated these engines for emissions and reliability, plus changed the definition of horsepower or how it is measured. In other words some of the power loss you see in that table is real, and some isn't. I would caution against concluding that the vehicle is underpowered, just because some web page says so.
My advice is to fix stuff, i.e. verify that all systems are operating as designed, before adding stuff.
Earle
> Well, here is where I got the info from: > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > >>>Dave Milne, Scotland > > >>>'91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ Dave Milne - 05 Jul 2006 06:37 GMT Sounds like a plan - will investigate that then. Cheers guys.
Dave Milne, Scotland '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ
> Dave, > [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > > > >>>Dave Milne, Scotland > > > >>>'91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ c - 05 Jul 2006 18:59 GMT Dave, when dealing with a low compression engine, there are a few things to keep in mind about engine modifications. The biggest one is the camshaft. Be careful of the cam duration and also the lobe separation angle. These 2 factors are critical to cylinder pressure. The best way to cam these engines is with a shorter duration, high lift cam. Also look for a camshaft with 110-112 degrees of lobe separation. Lobe separation is often overlooked in cam selection, but it is critical. The higher separation angle will do a few things. Fist, it reduces valve overlap, which is the time that both valves are open during the exhaust stroke. The reduced overlap will improve low RPM torque and idle quality, but at the expense of top end power. Bringing the lobe separation angle down, conversely increases valve overlap which will decrease idle quality somewhat, and also improve top end power.
A few other things to keep in mind. LPG likes high compression, so if you do rebuild the engine, take that in to account. Your idea of aftermarket intake and exhaust are also highly recommended, but again be conservative on manifold runner sizes and header tube diameters. The smaller passages will keep the air velocity higher at low engine speeds, which will improve torque, drivability and efficiency. The Edelbrock Performer is a good manifold choice for these types of vehicles. Keep the exhaust header tube diameter to 1.625" and find the headers with the longest primary tubes you can. This will improve low to midrange power.
One thing that might improve your situation very inexpensively is ignition timing. Because of your low compression ratio, you should be able to increase the ignition timing with the fuel you are using. Unfortunately this is probably not just a "turn the distributor to advance the timing" fix, but would probably require lighter springs and different weights in the distributor. I believe Mr. Gasket still offers an AMC advance curve kit which would fill the need pretty good.
I guess the timing would be the first thing I would mess with, because it is the cheapest mod you can make, and next would be the headers and exhaust, based on return of investment to power ratio. Again, just be careful not to get too big on the tube diameters. Just keep in mind when selecting parts, that your goal on a low compression engine is to keep the air velocities up in both of the intake and exhaust passages. Do that and you will be fine.
Chris
> Well, here is where I got the info from: > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] >> >>>Dave Milne, Scotland >> >>>'91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ Mike Romain - 04 Jul 2006 18:14 GMT Then he should have posted it as an information post, not as a troll post.
Mike
> I run LPG in my Wagoneer, so yes, I found it interesting. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 > > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) L.W.(Bill) Hughes III - 04 Jul 2006 02:19 GMT Did you forget the reason, I have given in the past, the reason gas a carburetor are not used???????? I notice the writer of the article is in la la land, too. How can anyone forget people being dragged to their deaths, because all butterfly throttle valves frozen a wide open throttle? When only gas runs over the throttle plates condensing water and forming ice on them. How do you thing A/C works??????? I think you should invest your moneys too, maybe they'll reopen the class action suits and take yours, too. Better yet you put the Holleys on your car, killing yourself. God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/
> http://cars.rasoenterprises.com/Propane-Holley.htm > [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > > Holley Propane Regulator/Converter Bret Ludwig - 04 Jul 2006 14:05 GMT > Did you forget the reason, I have given in the past, the reason gas > a carburetor are not used???????? Liar liar, pants on fire, you senile fool. You finally admitted it never happened. It never has and it can't.
I notice the writer of the article is
> in la la land, too. How can anyone forget people being dragged to their > deaths, because all butterfly throttle valves frozen a wide open > throttle? When only gas runs over the throttle plates condensing water > and forming ice on them. Since the gas is already gas it can't happen. And indeed it never did, as we proved last time you spouted this senile nonsense. Some drunken pal of yours had an accident with NITROUS OXIDE which has nothing to do with propane. Your mind is so far gone you can't even remember.
How do you thing A/C works??????? I think you
> should invest your moneys too, maybe they'll reopen the class action > suits and take yours, too. Better yet you put the Holleys on your car, > killing yourself. There were no such suits. You can't cite one.
L.W.(Bill) Hughes III - 04 Jul 2006 17:27 GMT Then why don't put your money where your mouth is, and put it on your vehicles! I'd like nothing better than it pull you to your death! God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/
><snip bullsh*t> Bret Ludwig - 05 Jul 2006 02:42 GMT > Then why don't put your money where your mouth is, and put it on > your vehicles! I'd like nothing better than it pull you to your death! Bloodthirsty as always, aren't you Bill.
I've had several propane vehicles. None has ever done anything more dangerous than a loud backfire. Propane is inherently a safer motor fuel than gasoline.
Why you regurgitate spiteful and nonsensical things like you do is beyond me.
L.W.(Bill) Hughes III - 05 Jul 2006 04:26 GMT Then why aren't you driving one right NOW! Oh please God let him have one! God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/
> Bloodthirsty as always, aren't you Bill. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Why you regurgitate spiteful and nonsensical things like you do is > beyond me.
|
|
|