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Car Forum / Jeep / December 2006

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Off Topic: Twas the night before Christmas

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L.W.(Bill) Hughes III - 26 Dec 2006 07:15 GMT
Twas the night before Christmas
He lived all alone
In a one bedroom house made of
Plaster and Stone
I had come down the Chimney
With presents to give.
And to see just who
In this home did live.
I looked all about
A strange sight I did see.
No tinsel, No presents,
Not even a tree.
No stocking by the mantle,
Just boots filled with sand.
On the wall hung pictures
Of far distant lands.
With medals and badges,
Awards of all kinds,
A sober thought
Came through my mind.
For this house was different,
It was dark and dreary,
I found the home of a soldier,
Once I could see clearly.
The soldier lay sleeping,
Silent, alone,
Curled up on the floor
In this one bedroom home.
The face was so gentle,
The room in such disorder,
Not how I pictured
A United States Soldier.
Was this the hero
Of whom I'd just read?
Curled up on a Poncho,
The floor for a bed?
I realized the families
That I saw this night,
Owed their lives to these soldiers
Who were willing to fight.
Soon round the world,
The children would play,
And grownup would celebrate
A bright Christmas Day.
They all enjoyed freedom
Each month of the year,
Because of the soldiers,
Like the one lying here.
I couldn't help wonder
How many lay alone,
On a cold Christmas Eve
In a land far from home.
The very thought
Brought a tear to my eye,
I dropped to my knees
And started to Cry.
The soldier awakened
And I heard a rough voice,
"Santa don't cry,
This life is my choice."
The solider rolled over
And drifted to sleep,
I couldn't control it,
I continued to weep.
I kept watch for hours,
So silent and still
And we both shivered
>From the cold nights chill.
I didn't want to leave
On that cold, dark, night,
This guardian of Honor
So willing to fight.
The solider rolled over,
With a voice soft and pure,
Whispered, "Carry on Santa,
It's Christmas Day, All is secure."
One look at my watch,
And I knew he was right.
"Merry Christmas my friend,
And to all a good night."
Dave Milne - 28 Dec 2006 20:44 GMT
One thing I never understand about the US - you constantly praise your
military (with justification) and yet you pay them appallingly.
A British raw recruit gets USD 23770  (US E1 gets 15272)  and a Sergeant  (8
years) gets 52267 (US E8 with 8 years gets USD 39504).
That really sucks.

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/pay/bl06enlbasepay.htm
http://www.armyjobs.mod.uk/RegularArmy/ArmyLife/PayAndLeave/Soldier/

Dave Milne, Scotland

> Twas the night before Christmas
> He lived all alone
[quoted text clipped - 76 lines]
> "Merry Christmas my friend,
> And to all a good night."
The Merg - 28 Dec 2006 22:22 GMT
I was always under the impression that American enlisted had a pretty
good deal, free room and board and etc.  However, I played club
lacrosse in Norfolk with a bunch of Navy guys, couple enlisted guys and
a couple Academy guys and they told me that the enlisted guys actually
get room and board taken out of their paychecks.  So not only do they
make jackshit, but they then get more money taken out.
The officers, most a few years out of the Academy, were all making
pretty good money - in addition to the money they made while at
Annapolis.

My father is a civil servant - mechanical engineer for the DOD/Navy.
He's been there for 30 or so years and makes nothing near what he'd be
worth in the private sector.

> One thing I never understand about the US - you constantly praise your
> military (with justification) and yet you pay them appallingly.
[quoted text clipped - 87 lines]
> > "Merry Christmas my friend,
> > And to all a good night."
Tom Greening - 29 Dec 2006 01:14 GMT
> I was always under the impression that American enlisted had a pretty
> good deal, free room and board and etc.  However, I played club
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> pretty good money - in addition to the money they made while at
> Annapolis.

That would be a complete reversal of the way it was when I was in the
Corp back in the 80's.  Back then if you were single you could live on
base free of charge with 3 square a day.  If you were married you could
live in base housing(if available) free of charge AND you got paid extra
as a food allowance for your family.  If there was no housing available
and you had to live in civilian housing you got paid more still as a
housing allowance.  You could also get this as a single person but I
don't remember the exact requirements for that.  I remember that it used
to fry my a55 that I did the same job as the next guy but he got paid a
third more(guessing from ancient memory) just because he was dumb enough
to get married and have kids.  I've been out of the loop quite awhile
but I can't imagine that those serving actually get their pay docked for
room and board.

Medical/Dental was 100% of everything for you and your family.  Thirty
days paid vacation every year. If you got transfered you got your stuff
moved free of charge.  Put in 20 years and you got 50% pay for life, 25
years and you got 75% plus medical/dental for you and your family for
life and commissary privileges on any base any where.  My reenlistment
bonus was $16,000 US 1984 dollars, one pay grade increase, and my choice
of assignment.

It shouldn't be too tough to find out the skinny on today's enlisted
man, but I can't imagine it got worse than that.

All in all, if you can handle the lifestyle, career military wasn't a
bad deal.

> My father is a civil servant - mechanical engineer for the DOD/Navy.
> He's been there for 30 or so years and makes nothing near what he'd be
> worth in the private sector.

For 30 years I'd have to think that there were SOME benefits/advantages
that made those 30 years of inferior pay worth it, or why would he still
be there.
The Merg - 29 Dec 2006 01:23 GMT
I'm just going by what the guys on my team told me; I'm sure it would
be easy to confirm or deny what they said.  I didn't (and don't) have
any reason to believe they weren't right.  I believe the statement came
from one of the Annapolis guys that the enlisted guys "really get
screwed" because of the low pay coupled with the deductions.

My dad is still in his job because he has a lot of money tied into his
pension plan and still has two (of six) kids in high school, the poor
guy.

> > I was always under the impression that American enlisted had a pretty
> > good deal, free room and board and etc.  However, I played club
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> that made those 30 years of inferior pay worth it, or why would he still
> be there.
Herb Leong - 30 Dec 2006 08:53 GMT
#from one of the Annapolis guys that the enlisted guys "really get
#screwed" because of the low pay coupled with the deductions.

I don't know about housing, but I know the Navy does deduct money
for the uniforms they issue you.

/herb
Lon - 30 Dec 2006 17:45 GMT
Herb Leong proclaimed:

> #from one of the Annapolis guys that the enlisted guys "really get
> #screwed" because of the low pay coupled with the deductions.
>
> I don't know about housing, but I know the Navy does deduct money
> for the uniforms they issue you.

In the Army the initial set of uniforms was free.  After that you got a
monthly uniform allowance and were responsible for replacing any part of
your uniform as required and keeping them serviceable.  When you left
the service, any piece of your uniform that was missing, altered beyond
limits, etc. was deducted from your pay at prices from the quartermaster
store.
Lon - 29 Dec 2006 02:45 GMT
Never heard of enlisted men being charged room and/or board unless they
were married and getting allowances or were on some type of TDY where
they were being paid per diem.   That might have changed since I was in
the military.

Yes, you got free room and board.  In some bases, the military meals
were really quite good as some of the cooks actually took pride in their
ability to turn available stock into edible results.   ..and there were
a few of the other type as well.  As for the free housing, that was if
you lived in barracks and were single.  If you were a platoon sergeant
or squad leader you typically got a private room.  Otherwise you might
be clustered with a small group of folks in your squad or you might be
in the larger flat barracks where everyone was on cots or bunk beds in
one big room.   With one exception at White Sands, never ran into any
military single housing that was as good as the worst college dorm room.

Married personnel were allowed to live on base and/or get a housing
allowance and food allowance.  If they ate in the mess hall they had to
pay.

If officers ate in the mess hall they had to pay.

In some bases, if a non-com ate in the enlisted mess they also had to
pay but if single did not get a meal allowance unless they were on some
sort of detachment.

Or you could eat at the nco club or officers club, but those were not
free.

The pay scales sucked. As an E5 with proficiency pay in two different
skills, I managed, but lower enlisted men were chronically short of
funds.   Even as an E5, the pay for civil service GS-7 was considerably
higher even after accounting for house payment and buying your own food.
  Civilian jobs paid even more.

The Merg proclaimed:

> I was always under the impression that American enlisted had a pretty
> good deal, free room and board and etc.  However, I played club
[quoted text clipped - 101 lines]
>>>"Merry Christmas my friend,
>>>And to all a good night."
The Merg - 29 Dec 2006 04:36 GMT
> The Merg proclaimed:
Hey - I didn't 'proclaim' anything.  I was only repeating what I had
heard; or at least what I thought I heard.  I've been known to be wrong
on rare occasions.
But that's corroborating evidence by two former military personnel
against room and board deductions - good enough for me.
Either way the enlisted men don't get paid nearly enough for the work
they do.

> Never heard of enlisted men being charged room and/or board unless they
> were married and getting allowances or were on some type of TDY where
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> > He's been there for 30 or so years and makes nothing near what he'd be
> > worth in the private sector.
Earle Horton - 28 Dec 2006 22:58 GMT
Do you include benefits?  Lots of these guys get free medical care and other
bennies for life.  Of course, some of them need it.  I recently read an
article on MSN Latino about quality and retention of military personnel.
The interviewee really liked Latinos, because they are in it for "La
patria", while the Anglos by and large are in it for more selfish reasons,
such as job training, educational benefits, and getting off drugs.  It turns
out that the soldiers with the more selfless motives last longer and are
more "productive" at what they do.  (I guess they mean killing, I don't
know.)

What's the ethnic composition of your armed forces, by the way?

Earle

> One thing I never understand about the US - you constantly praise your
> military (with justification) and yet you pay them appallingly.
[quoted text clipped - 87 lines]
> > "Merry Christmas my friend,
> > And to all a good night."
Dave Milne - 28 Dec 2006 23:19 GMT
We all get free medical care here, and university tuition fees are a couple
of thousand bucks a year.
Ethnic composition of the armed forces I would guess is almost all white
with a significant number from Scotland.

Dave Milne, Scotland

> Do you include benefits?  Lots of these guys get free medical care and other
> bennies for life.  Of course, some of them need it.  I recently read an
[quoted text clipped - 102 lines]
> > > "Merry Christmas my friend,
> > > And to all a good night."
Dave Milne - 28 Dec 2006 23:23 GMT
Apparently 99% white.
Dave

> We all get free medical care here, and university tuition fees are a couple
> of thousand bucks a year.
[quoted text clipped - 111 lines]
> > > > "Merry Christmas my friend,
> > > > And to all a good night."
Earle Horton - 28 Dec 2006 23:48 GMT
> We all get free medical care here, and university tuition fees are a
> couple of thousand bucks a year.

Well it's different here, although state universities are pretty cheap for
state residents.

> Ethnic composition of the armed forces I would guess is almost all white
> with a significant number from Scotland.

Well there you go.  White lives are worth more than colored ones.

Earle

> Dave Milne, Scotland
>
[quoted text clipped - 106 lines]
> > > > "Merry Christmas my friend,
> > > > And to all a good night."
billy ray - 29 Dec 2006 03:48 GMT
But not if you are a Scot?

>> We all get free medical care here, and university tuition fees are a
>> couple of thousand bucks a year.
[quoted text clipped - 124 lines]
>> > > > "Merry Christmas my friend,
>> > > > And to all a good night."
billy ray - 29 Dec 2006 04:03 GMT
Only one of the two main political parties regularly votes against pay
raises for the military.

It is the same one that nominated a candidate who said only people too
stupid to get a job at McDonalds joined the military.

This group is also the one that tried to disallow all the ballots from
deployed soldiers in the pas couple elections.

> One thing I never understand about the US - you constantly praise your
> military (with justification) and yet you pay them appallingly.
[quoted text clipped - 88 lines]
>> "Merry Christmas my friend,
>> And to all a good night."
Earle Horton - 29 Dec 2006 04:20 GMT
If soldiering is like anything else, you get a better product when you pay
more.  Don't let's get started on teachers, nurses, police officers, all
kinds of municipal officers...  This is the fast food, bargain basement,
super size me country, and don't let's forget it.

Right now Washington seems to be asking for an infinite military force
capable of wiping every Islamic extremist off the face of the Earth.  While
I am somewhat in sympathy with this goal, I don't see how it is possible and
I wouldn't give the lying bastards at the Pentagon a cent more unless they
came out with a plan for scaling things down.  I would make them all read
the Tar Baby story too, and write a one page essay on what it is about.
Everybody that knows me knows how I like to look at the dark side of things,
but this is a serious cluster **** we are in right now.

Heh, Sadaam Hussein is set for hanging, last thing I read.  I hope at least
they telecast it.  Pay per view Al Jazeera?

Earle

> Only one of the two main political parties regularly votes against pay
> raises for the military.
[quoted text clipped - 97 lines]
> >> "Merry Christmas my friend,
> >> And to all a good night."
Matt Macchiarolo - 31 Dec 2006 20:00 GMT
> Only one of the two main political parties regularly votes against pay
> raises for the military.

You're drinking the Kool Aid again...the pay raises that the GOP likes are
ridiculous:
http://americablog.blogspot.com/2006/11/gop-congress-gives-military-brass.html

> It is the same one that nominated a candidate who said only people too
> stupid to get a job at McDonalds joined the military.

What he said was stupid, but that's not what he said, run your fact checker.

> This group is also the one that tried to disallow all the ballots from
> deployed soldiers in the pas couple elections.

Not in 92, when Clinton was helped by all the military personell who lost
confidence in Bush Sr for not getting Saddam in '91 when they could have.

>> One thing I never understand about the US - you constantly praise your
>> military (with justification) and yet you pay them appallingly.
[quoted text clipped - 88 lines]
>>> "Merry Christmas my friend,
>>> And to all a good night."
Will Honea - 29 Dec 2006 07:40 GMT
> One thing I never understand about the US - you constantly praise your
> military (with justification) and yet you pay them appallingly.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/pay/bl06enlbasepay.htm
> http://www.armyjobs.mod.uk/RegularArmy/ArmyLife/PayAndLeave/Soldier/

Interesting links, Dave.  The effect you describe is, to a point, cyclic.
I grew up as one of 4 kids of an Army then AF NCO.  Things would get to
the point he was working pretty much a full time off duty job to make ends
meet then along came a pay raise and things got pretty good for a while.
When I graduated from the AF Academy in 1964, a 2nd Lt. got a base pay of
$222.30 per month and hadn't seen a pay raise since 1952.  Hazardous duty
(flight) pay was nearly half of the base pay amount.  I got quarters in
lieu of a housing allowance.  When we finally got a pay raise in 1967, my
pay almost exactly doubled and some of the younger enlisted troops on the
flight line more than doubled their take-home pay.  When Dad retired at
the highest enlisted grade available, he had 30 years service and drew 75%
of his active duty pay.  That was more than I was making as a senior
Captain on flight status.  One of his proudest moments was the day when he
reached more time retired than he had served on active duty and I know for
a fact that his and Mom's medical care exceeded his pay.

I don't begrudge military retirees a penny of their pay - they damned well
earned it.  I separated before retirement but I still feel that way.  When
the government gets around to granting a pay raise, it usually has some
catchup element to it so it averages out, especially when you consider the
value of the benefits after retirement.  It must be similar in other
countries - I can recall making considerably more than my British and
Aussie contemporaries at one time.

Signature

Will Honea <whonea@yahoo.com>

Dave Milne - 29 Dec 2006 09:57 GMT
I agree. I also suspect that the average US soldier is in charge of assets
worth more than the British soldier, and if I'm not wrong, many can call up
an airstrike at a cost of many millions a time ? In most other arenas,
someone who could sign off that type of expenditure would be a senior
manager !

Dave

> I don't begrudge military retirees a penny of their pay - they damned well
> earned it.  I separated before retirement but I still feel that way.  When
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> countries - I can recall making considerably more than my British and
> Aussie contemporaries at one time.
Dave Milne - 29 Dec 2006 10:11 GMT
and on a slightly related note, we finish paying off the US and Canada for
World War 2 finally this month.
Germany had to pay $20 billion in reparations in total which is about a buck
a dead soldier.

Dave

> I agree. I also suspect that the average US soldier is in charge of assets
> worth more than the British soldier, and if I'm not wrong, many can call up
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> > countries - I can recall making considerably more than my British and
> > Aussie contemporaries at one time.
Earle Horton - 29 Dec 2006 16:38 GMT
Well Dave, now that WWII is paid off, I guess we can afford another one!

Earle

> and on a slightly related note, we finish paying off the US and Canada for
> World War 2 finally this month.
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> > > countries - I can recall making considerably more than my British and
> > > Aussie contemporaries at one time.
Dave Milne - 29 Dec 2006 17:02 GMT
I seriously wonder if wars can be won without bombing civilians. We bombed
the hell out of industrial Germany and Japan and won. Since then, has not
every guerilla/terrorist war been a loss ?

Dave Milne

> Well Dave, now that WWII is paid off, I guess we can afford another one!
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> > > > countries - I can recall making considerably more than my British and
> > > > Aussie contemporaries at one time.
Earle Horton - 29 Dec 2006 17:37 GMT
"Civilians" benefit more than soldiers from the effects of war.  It stands
to reason, that beating the hell out of soldiers doesn't do much to resolve
whatever problems caused the war in the first place.  It's like a boxing
match, where you're only allowed to hit your opponent's fists.  If you want
to win, you go for the head.  That's why I find the idea of rules of
engagement cynical in the extreme.  It just prolongs the misery, resulting
in more damage in the end.

Earle

> I seriously wonder if wars can be won without bombing civilians. We bombed
> the hell out of industrial Germany and Japan and won. Since then, has not
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> and
> > > > > Aussie contemporaries at one time.
The Merg - 29 Dec 2006 18:38 GMT
Interesting point, Earle.  I've always thought the American policy that
doesn't allow the assassination of heads of state to be a little
absurd, essentially for the same reasons.  Especially when other states
(or fighting units, et. al.) don't necessarily extend the same
courtesy.

On Dec 29, 12:52 pm, "Earle Horton" <Earle@spammers_me_enojan.usa>
wrote:
> "Civilians" benefit more than soldiers from the effects of war.  It stands
> to reason, that beating the hell out of soldiers doesn't do much to resolve
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
> > and
> > > > > > Aussie contemporaries at one time.
Lee Ayrton - 29 Dec 2006 18:37 GMT
Okay, so it has f.ck-all to do with jeeps.  Still...

I think that you may be asking too broad a question.  Without having
thought too deeply about it and considered all the possibilities, it seems
to me that the difference you are looking at is the difference between
formal war between governments -- Clausewitz's war as an extension of
politics -- and informal guerilla war as a extension of philosophy.

In a formal war you have a physical goal: Defeat the enemy in battle,
disarm him, displace the government, occupy and control the territory.
At the government level the reason for the war is generally wealth
of some sort (territory, resources, prestige, &c.)

In a guerilla war there is no such physical goal:  There are no pitched
battles to win, no large weapons to confiscate, there is no recognizable
governing body to displace, you often already occupy the territory but
lack the means to effectively control it.  It is a deadly game of
Whack-A-Mole.  At the top level the reason for the war is that they hate
you.

The strategic bombing program in Germany was certainly a disruption and
forced the government to divert scant resources away from the battlefield.
The "dehousing" program (as the British so quaintly termed it) no doubt
was demoralizing, but the industrial bombing program never achieved its
strategic goal.  At the end of the war, Germany's industrial warfare
output was higher than at the start -- what it lacked was the trained
manpower to operate its weapons (once it was denied oil fields it lost the
fuel to train pilots.)

Strategic bombing of Japan didn't begin until late in 1944, when Japan was
already on the ropes, having lost much of the Pacific island territory it
had gained.  Japan had planned on a "short war" to satisfy its territorial
ambitions and never fully mobilized its economy on a war footing.  Having
incorrectly assumed that the US wouldn't engage them, they were
unprepared for what became, for them, a war of attrition.  Because of the
structure of their military they were unable to replace pilots, because
they were denied raw materials they were unable to effectively replace
planes and carriers.

And then there was Vietnam.  Bombing programs there had tactical effects,
but never really a strategic effect and didn't result in a favorable (to
western eyes) outcome, in spite of bombing the hell out of them.  An USAF
navigator that I knew used to point out that his B-52 payload was larger
than the fully-laden takeoff-weight of the B-17 that he used to navigate.

So why bomb civilians in a formal war?  To demoralize them, get them to
stop supporting their government.  But to be effective you have to wait
until the war is a couple of years old and beginning to stink, otherwise
you'll just piss them off -- like the Germans did with the English.  In a
guerilla war, if you are the conventional force, you'll just piss the
population off and get them to support the guerrillas.  If you are the
guerilla force, you bomb civilians and blame the other guy to get the same
effect.  If you are both guerilla forces you bomb civilians to terrorize
the population and make them pliant.

> I seriously wonder if wars can be won without bombing civilians. We bombed
> the hell out of industrial Germany and Japan and won. Since then, has not
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> and
>>>>> Aussie contemporaries at one time.

--
"I defer to your plainly more vivid memories of topless women with
whips....r"
                   R. H. Draney recalls AFU in the Good Old Days.
Will Honea - 29 Dec 2006 22:32 GMT
Le, I didn't mean to start a long OT thread here, but you oversimplify the
effects of air power in all your instances.  Dad flew 52 missions in
B-17's with the Eighth AF (25 as a Bombardier, 27 as a retrained pilot) so
I got an ear full of commentary on this.  In Europe, the major effect was
not on the manufacturing sources but the tactical destruction of the
transportation network.  In the Pacific, the same held true except that
the transport element was much more critical.  The one strategic master
stroke was an anemic strike by Dolittle on Tokyo.  Small damage to ground
targets, but it caused the Imperial Forces to hold a substantial force in
place at home that could well have been decisive if deployed as originally
planned.  Most military analysis of the nuclear strikes conclude that they
were far more effective as political events than strictly military.

Don't get me started on Vietnam: any resemblance between our actions there
and a military campaign were accidents - the politicians ran that show
with little regard for military effectiveness.

Dave, there is a reason why tactical airstrikes are normally managed by
specially trained personnel.  Even then, I can recall being asked to make
dive bomb runs perpendicular to a 600 ft cliff or straffing runs into a
blind canyon or hot napalm releases over the heads of friendly troops.
It's amazing how many details go into dropping one little bomb <g>.

Signature

Will Honea <whonea@yahoo.com>

billy ray - 30 Dec 2006 04:51 GMT
When will you start paying for WWI?

>> > and on a slightly related note, we finish paying off the US and Canada
> for
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> and
>> > > > Aussie contemporaries at one time.
Mimsy Borogrove - 29 Dec 2006 00:44 GMT
A U.S. military 'at its breaking point' considers foreign recruits


By BryanBender
The Boston Globe

Tuesday, December 26, 2006

WASHINGTON

The armed forces, already struggling to meet recruiting goals, are
considering expanding the number of noncitizens in the ranks - including
disputed proposals to open recruiting stations overseas and put more
immigrants on a faster track to U.S. citizenship if they volunteer -
according to Pentagon officials.

Foreign citizens' serving in the U.S. military is a highly charged issue,
which could expose the Pentagon to criticism that it is essentially using
mercenaries to defend the country. Other analysts voice concern that a
large contingent of noncitizens under arms could jeopardize national
security or reflect badly on Americans' willingness to serve in uniform.

The idea of signing up residents who are seeking U.S. citizenship is
gaining traction as a way to address a critical need for the Pentagon,
while fully absorbing some of the roughly one million immigrants that
enter the United States legally each year.

The proposal to induct more noncitizens, which is still largely on the
drawing board, has to clear a number of hurdles. So far, the Pentagon has
been quiet about specifics, like who would be eligible to join, where the
recruiting stations would be, and what the minimum standards might
involve, like English proficiency. In the meantime, the Pentagon and the
immigration authorities have expanded a program that accelerates
citizenship for legal residents who volunteer for the military.

Since the terror attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, the number of immigrants in
uniform who have become U.S. citizens has increased from 750 in 2001 to
almost 4,600 last year, according to military statistics.

With severe manpower strains because of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan,
and a mandate to expand the overall size of the military, the Pentagon is
under pressure to consider a variety of proposals involving foreign
recruits, according to a military affairs analyst.

"It works as a military idea and it works in the context of American
immigration," said Thomas Donnelly, a military scholar at the conservative
American Enterprise Institute in Washington and a leading proponent of
recruiting more foreigners to serve in the military.

As the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan grind on, the Pentagon has warned
Congress and the White House that the military is stretched "to the
breaking point."

Both President George W. Bush and Robert Gates, his new defense secretary,
have acknowledged that the total size of the military must be expanded to
help alleviate the strain on ground troops, many of whom have been
deployed repeatedly in combat theaters.

Bush said last week that he had ordered Gates to come up with a plan for
the first significant increase in ground forces since the end of the Cold
War.

That has led Pentagon officials to consider casting a wider net for
noncitizens who are already in the United States, said Lieutenant Colonel
Bryan Hilferty, an army spokesman.

Already, the army and the Immigration and Customs Enforcement division of
the Department of Homeland Security have "made it easier for green-card
holders who do enlist to get their citizenship," Hilferty said.

Other army officials, who asked not to be identified, said personnel
officials were working with Congress and other parts of the government to
test the feasibility of going beyond U.S. borders to recruit soldiers and
marines.

Currently, Pentagon policy stipulates that only immigrants legally
residing in the United States are eligible to enlist. There are currently
about 30,000 noncitizens who serve in the U.S. armed forces, making up
about 2 percent of the active- duty force, according to statistics from
the military and the Council on Foreign Relations. About 100 such
noncitizens have died in Iraq and Afghanistan.

A recent change in U.S. law, however, gave the Pentagon authority to bring
immigrants to the United States if it determines it is vital to national
security. So far, the Pentagon has not taken advantage of it, but the
calls are growing to use this new authority.

Indeed, some top military thinkers believe the United States should go as
far as targeting foreigners in their native countries.

"It's a little dramatic," said Michael O'Hanlon, a military specialist at
the nonpartisan Brookings Institution and another supporter of the
proposal. "But if you don't get some new idea how to do this, we will not
be able to achieve an increase" in the size of the armed forces.

"We have already done the standard things to recruit new soldiers,
including using more recruiters and new advertising campaigns," O'Hanlon
added.

O'Hanlon and others noted that the country has relied before on sizable
numbers of noncitizens to serve in the military - in the Revolutionary
War, for example, German and French soldiers served alongside the
colonists, and locals were recruited into U.S. ranks to fight insurgents
in the Philippines.

Other nations have recruited foreign citizens: In France, the famed
Foreign Legion relies on about 8,000 noncitizens; Nepalese Gurkhas have
fought and died with British Army forces for two centuries; and the Swiss
Guard, which protects the Vatican, consists of troops who hail from many
nations.

"It is not without historical precedent," Donnelly said.

Still, to some military officials and civil rights groups, relying on a
large number of foreigners to serve in the military is offensive.

A Hispanic rights advocacy group, National Council of La Raza, has said
that the plan sends the wrong message that Americans themselves are not
willing to sacrifice to defend their country. Officials have also raised
concerns that immigrants would be disproportionately sent to the front
lines as "cannon fodder" in any conflict.

Some within the army privately express concern that a big push to recruit
noncitizens would smack of "the decline of the American empire," said one
army official who asked not to be identified.
 
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