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Car Forum / Jeep / March 2007

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The clutch saga

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wbowlin@gmail.com - 21 Feb 2007 01:15 GMT
I posted this a couple of days ago in response to one of my other
emails but have not received any replies.  I am putting it in its own
topic so sorry if this bothers anyone...

I have replaced my clutch end to end (minus the line) and am having
issues with it maintaining pedal pressure.  When I bleed it, it
appears that all the air is out of the system.  The pedal feels nice
and firm when pushing on it.  However, the moment I start the engine,
the pedal starts to get soft to the point I can't put it in gear.  I
have teflon tape around the bleeder screw.  I did not bench bleed the
master, the instructions did not mention it.  I do not see any leaks.
Any ideas?

Will
Mike Romain - 21 Feb 2007 01:52 GMT
> I posted this a couple of days ago in response to one of my other
> emails but have not received any replies.  I am putting it in its own
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Will

Air in the master will act like that.

I do thing you said you didn't bench bleed it?

Some just need to be pumped like mad to get the air out, some have to be
perfectly level and pushed in deeper than the pedal can do it.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos:  Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
Carl S - 21 Feb 2007 02:27 GMT
I agree. Pull the master and bench bleed it all the way. Sometimes the pedal
doesn't quite reach the end of the travel for the master.

HTH

Carl

>> I posted this a couple of days ago in response to one of my other
>> emails but have not received any replies.  I am putting it in its own
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
wbowlin@gmail.com - 21 Feb 2007 03:05 GMT
> I agree. Pull the master and bench bleed it all the way. Sometimes the pedal
> doesn't quite reach the end of the travel for the master.
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> > Jan/06http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
> > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Alright guys.  I'll give it a shot tomorrow and see what happens.  It
will give me an excuse to get out in the great weather we've had the
last two days.  Thanks
Carl S - 21 Feb 2007 04:32 GMT
Let us know how it goes.

Carl

>> I agree. Pull the master and bench bleed it all the way. Sometimes the
>> pedal
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> will give me an excuse to get out in the great weather we've had the
> last two days.  Thanks
wbowlin@gmail.com - 26 Feb 2007 03:43 GMT
> Let us know how it goes.
>
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
> > will give me an excuse to get out in the great weather we've had the
> > last two days.  Thanks

I did not bench bleed the master by putting it on a bench, but here is
what I did.  I took a piece of hydraulic line and looped it around
from the hydraulic fitting in the master cylinder back into the
reservoir.  I disconnected the master cylinder plunger from the clutch
pedal and pumped it in and let it release until I didn't see any more
bubbles looping around into the reservoir.  I then quickly swapped the
piece of hydraulic line for the hydraulic line that goes to the
slave.

This didn't help much at all.  The pedal would get firm while bleeding
it, but soon after starting the engine the pedal would not engage
until close to the bottom of the stroke and the transmission could not
be put in gear.  I was skeptical on the clutch line because of issues
sealing it earlier, and I guess I like to continue to sink money into
this, so I replaced the clutch line.  I bled the system, but did not
re-bleed the master as above, and the clutch got real firm.

I bled it as follows: I had a friend pump the pedal a few times and
had her hold it to the floor.  I hooked a vacuum pump to the bleeder
valve and built up pressure. I then cracked the bleeder valve just
enough for fluid and air to escape.  I had a clear tube hooked up to
it and fed it into a small container with a couple inches of fluid in
it.  I did this 3-4 times until the air bubbles stopped developing.  I
made sure the master reservoir remained full.  I then repeated this a
couple more times without the vacuum pump and all seemed well (no
bubbles).

This seemed like it was going to work out.  I started the engine and
let it warm up, as it is now cold here again.  I went out and
depressed the clutch and worked it through the gears.  I did this
several times.  It was working so I thought all was good.  I went for
a drive and about 5 minutes into it the pedal went almost to the floor
before it engaged.  I could not get the tranny out of second gear
until I slowed and pumped the pedal several times.  It then would work
OK for a while then it would repeat.  I then noticed a pattern.  When
I replaced the clutch line I only connected one of the 2 bolts that
held it to the body (since I wanted to test the clutch pressure before
permanently bolting down since the bolts are tricky to get to),  When
driving I would sometimes here a loud rattle in the vicinity of the
clutch pedal area, but on the other side of the firewall.  This is
also the area where the rubber hose turns to metal on the clutch line,
right before bending under the vehicle.  The line is slightly
different than the original, but not significantly different.  I
believe the metal of the hose was rattling against the body pretty
rapidly, sounding like a bad vibration.  At this time if I tried to
shift the tranny, the clutch would not have much pressure at all.  I
observed this pattern continue as I limped the jeep home.  Rattling =
no pressure.  I had issues with maintaining pressure the whole way
home. What is weird is that it seemed like it was better when shifting
to third, but I couldn't observe a pattern there because I was scared
of being stuck in third, so it might have been coincidental that it
seemed good the couple of times I tried it.  At least in 2nd I could
cheat up to stop signs and lights.

When I got home I parked the jeep and went inside the house to
wallow.  I then came out a few minutes later and pressed the clutch
pedal.  It was solid as I pressed it.  Just like it was when I bled
it.  Not after pumping either.  On the first couple of strokes.

Anybody have any ideas?  I feel I replaced the various clutch parts to
spec.  It seemed rather straight forward.  I don't know what to do at
this point.
Will Honea - 27 Feb 2007 06:44 GMT
From the details you give, I have to ask: did you flush the whole system?
Reason I ask is that I had a used slave/master set when I swapped out the
internal slave and the master finally gave up a couple of years later.  I
installed a new master, let it bleed itself ( the external slave will do a
pretty good job of self bleed in half an hour or so since there is no
residual pressure like a brake system has).  Six months later, I sometimes
had a good clutch, sometimes could get it to work by pumping like mad, and
a couple of times came home shifting w/o a clutch.  When I pulled the
master, it was full of black gunk that was messing up the rubber valve in
the end of the cylinder and not letting the master prime itself -
sometimes.

One thing you never mentioned: do you have to add fluid every so often?
If so, you have a leak somewhere otherwise you have a poltergeist on your
case.

Signature

Will Honea <whonea@yahoo.com>

wbowlin@gmail.com - 27 Feb 2007 13:28 GMT
> From the details you give, I have to ask: did you flush the whole system?
> Reason I ask is that I had a used slave/master set when I swapped out the
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> --
> Will Honea <who...@yahoo.com>

I haven't driven it enough to ever have to add fluid.  I have replaced
the clutch end to end in the last few weeks.  I replaced the slave,
clutch disk, pilot bearing, and pressure plate in one weekend,
replaced the master the next weekend, then replaced the hose this last
weekend.  I haven't been driving during that time recently because of
the clutch issue (and it is not my daily driver).  I may have gotten a
bad master, but I don't know how to tell.  I could take the master
back to the parts store and try a new one, but I wondered if it
sounded like anything else.  Especially the way the hose was slapping
against the body of the jeep.  That seemed odd to me.
Mike Romain - 27 Feb 2007 15:40 GMT
>> From the details you give, I have to ask: did you flush the whole system?
>> Reason I ask is that I had a used slave/master set when I swapped out the
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> sounded like anything else.  Especially the way the hose was slapping
> against the body of the jeep.  That seemed odd to me.

Any chance the exhaust is too close to the clutch line?

Any chance the exhaust or the header bellows has a (that) crack in it
blowing a stream of superheated exhaust air at the clutch line?

Any soot marks on the old parts?

Was the hydraulic fluid the right kind and out of a freshly opened
bottle?  Brake fluid can absorb an amazing amount of water which then
lowers the boiling point of the fluid 'way' down.

I am thinking your clutch fluid is boiling maybe....

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos:  Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
wbowlin@gmail.com - 04 Mar 2007 23:46 GMT
> wbow...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> From the details you give, I have to ask: did you flush the whole system?
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> Jan/06http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

I don't think it is boiling.  The line is not close to the exhaust.  I
will drive it around some more and make sure the line is not hot when
it starts acting up.  I have flushed the old fluid out in order to
eliminate old fluid as the problem.
L.W. (Bill) Hughes III - 28 Feb 2007 00:43 GMT
Push the line down so as the remove the air from that loop, and bleed
from the master cylinder, too.
       God Bless America, Bill 0|||||||0
mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/

> I haven't driven it enough to ever have to add fluid.  I have replaced
> the clutch end to end in the last few weeks.  I replaced the slave,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> sounded like anything else.  Especially the way the hose was slapping
> against the body of the jeep.  That seemed odd to me.

Signature

Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

wbowlin@gmail.com - 04 Mar 2007 23:23 GMT
On Feb 27, 6:43 pm, "L.W. \(Bill\) Hughes III" <billhug...@cox.net>
wrote:
>     Push the line down so as the remove the air from that loop, and bleed
> from the master cylinder, too.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com

I don't follow on how to bleed from the master cylinder or how to go
about pushing down the loop. Care to expand on those suggestions?

Thanks
L.W. (Bill) Hughes III - 05 Mar 2007 00:20 GMT
The XJ and YJ clutch master cylinders I've replaced, have always had a
the hydraulic line looped and attached to the firewall above the cylinder
level from the factory that will hold air if allowed to stay at that level
during bleeding.  Detach and push it down level with the fitting you'll be
bleeding.
       God Bless America, Bill 0|||||||0
mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/

> I don't follow on how to bleed from the master cylinder or how to go
> about pushing down the loop. Care to expand on those suggestions?
>
> Thanks

Signature

Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Will Honea - 05 Mar 2007 03:59 GMT
Every time I have clutch system apart (external slave), I simply bleed
before I attach the slave to the bell housing. Get a helper - it's
quicker.  Crawl under and compress the slave by hand.  Have the helper
fill the reservoir, then release the slave push rod SLOWLY as the helper
keeps the reservoir full. That will just about fill the slave, but it will
have an air pocket, so point the actuator rod down and have the helper
holler when the bubbles stop OR the level in the reservoir drops all the
way down. DO NOT ADD FLUID AT THIS TIME - you are about to push it all
back up again any way. Push the rod all the way into the slave - SLOWLY.
You probably will get at least some fluid back up to the reservoir - if
not, have the helper add fluid and keep it full release the slave rod -
slowly.  Repeat until the reservoir is full with no bubbling when the
slave is full compressed. Release the slave all they way out, make sure
that there is some fluid in the bottom of the reservoir at all times -
not full, but enough to cover the bottom.  

Crawl out and sit in the driver's seat.  Have the helper fill the
reservoir.  SLOWLY press the clutch all the way down.  Hold it for a few
seconds and SLOWLY release it once or twice. Wait for any bubbles to stop,
then press the clutch and release it quickly a few times.  Top off and go.

The older external slaves had a bleed valve that made the process a bit
simpler, but the new ones (aftermarket) come with the bleed port plugged
and no threads for a valve so this is the only way to get a good initial
bleed.

The clutch system is not under any pressure when not depressed, so any air
will eventually work its' way out from here.

On Sun, 04 Mar 2007 16:20:28 -0800, L.W. \(Bill\) Hughes III wrote:

> The XJ and YJ clutch master cylinders I've replaced, have always had a
> the hydraulic line looped and attached to the firewall above the cylinder
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>>
>> Thanks

Signature

Will Honea <whonea@yahoo.com>

wbowlin@gmail.com - 04 Mar 2007 23:52 GMT
> From the details you give, I have to ask: did you flush the whole system?
> Reason I ask is that I had a used slave/master set when I swapped out the
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> --
> Will Honea <who...@yahoo.com>

I flushed the old fluid out of the line today, and while re-bleeding I
noticed something peculiar.  I would pump the pedal a few times, hold
the pedal down, crack the bleeder valve, and let the fluid run out.
However, while the fluid ran out it felt like air was rushing in.
This would occur for a few seconds.  I could hear (sounds like bubbles
rushing up the line) and feel it in the clutch line.  Small bubbles
also formed in the master while doing this.  Am I doing something
wrong now or does this sound like a component failure?
Will Honea - 05 Mar 2007 04:03 GMT
On Sun, 04 Mar 2007 15:52:27 -0800, wbowlin wrote:

>> From the details you give, I have to ask: did you flush the whole system?
>> Reason I ask is that I had a used slave/master set when I swapped out the
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> also formed in the master while doing this.  Am I doing something
> wrong now or does this sound like a component failure?

This is a gravity system.  You have to open the bleed port before the
pedal is all the way down and close it before the pedal reaches the
firewall.  The line will drain by gravity if you leave it open with no
pressure.  If it will fit, you can also use the old time method and attach
a line to the bleed port and run it into a jar of brake fluid.  Fill the
hose with fluid, then the system will siphon brake fluid instead of air
when not under pressure.

Signature

Will Honea <whonea@yahoo.com>

Carl S - 09 Mar 2007 04:35 GMT
Sounds like you're bleeding wrong. Have someone pump the pedal, then have
them hold it down. Crack the bleeder and let it spray out. Close it before
the flow stops to prevent air from going back in. Try that a few times and
see if that helps.

Carl

>> From the details you give, I have to ask: did you flush the whole system?
>> Reason I ask is that I had a used slave/master set when I swapped out the
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> also formed in the master while doing this.  Am I doing something
> wrong now or does this sound like a component failure?
wbowlin@gmail.com - 15 Mar 2007 03:28 GMT
> Sounds like you're bleeding wrong. Have someone pump the pedal, then have
> them hold it down. Crack the bleeder and let it spray out. Close it before
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> > also formed in the master while doing this.  Am I doing something
> > wrong now or does this sound like a component failure?

What I ended up doing in the end (after trying everything I could
think of and that was suggested) was getting a speed bleeder and
combined that with the mityvac to suck air out of the bleeder port.
I cranked up the pressure to 15 psi, slightly opened the bleed port,
and slowly cycled the pedal with half strokes.  The clutch is very
firm right now and staying that way.  I believe it is bled well to
this point.

I just drove it around for half an hour and I only experienced a tough
shift one time.  It was when I heard the rattling metal like sound
(see above post about that).  As soon as it happened I pushed on the
pedal and it did not engage as early in the pedal stroke and the
tranny was stuck in gear.  I let off the clutch, waited a couple of
seconds, and pressed the clutch again and it was firm again and it
shifted just fine.  I think I am changing my mind on where the rattle
is.  I believe it is where the clutch line and bleeder line exit the
bell housing.  Its hard to stick your head by the pedals when you are
driving and the clutch wont release, but I tried and it sounds like it
is originating from that area.  I tightened the hose down along the
firewall and of course it does not rattle nearly the same now.   There
was a rubber grommet of some sort where the hoses exited the housing
when I tore it down, and that was the one part I was missing when I
put it back together.  I forgot I was missing it during reassembly
because I was tackling getting the cross member bolted back up and
forgot to look for it when I was done.  Do you think the lines
rattling there could be causing clutch issues, or something is going
wrong in the system and the line rattling is just an end result of
that?  The clutch is very predictable, and will not release, when that
noise occurs but I don't know if not having the rubber piece in there
is a culprit.  Ideas?

Also, I am a little worried about the tranny fluid I am using right
now.  I am using Mobil 1 synthetic which I believe has additives in it
that are harmful to synchros, but the manual called for a GL5 based
fluid and that is one the part store had.  I am thinking about
switching it out after doing seom reading, but I do not know what to
switch to.  There are a variety of opinions out there.  Any
suggestions on that?

Thanks guys for the help.

Will
 
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