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Car Forum / Jeep / April 200781 CJ 258 starting problem
Here's the story, jeep hasn't ran for couple months, went to start it the other day to move it out of garage, it was dead, jumped it, moved it out of garage, tried starting again, just click click, click, I figured battery was gone as this is the same one I left lights on for a week last year, everyone said wouldn't come back, but it did, been fine for the year. I was all ready to go get new battery and figured I would put the meter on it to make sure, it was 11.96, that sounds like a fully charged bat. to me, so I replaced the solinoid, thinking that was it. On first start up, when I turned the key to on there was a buzzing for about 10 seconds, about as long as it took me to put gas to floor twice to choke it, anyway started fine, drove it up and down road, and parked in driveway, shut it off and restarted it fine. Today when I went to start it, it went click, click, click, then started, but started didn't stop starting, I turned the key to off, still running and starter still starting, daughter yells turn it off, I hold up key to her!!, so I stick it back in and turn it to start again and it stops the starter, so I move the jeep to where I wanted it, start it 2 times fine, so what the hell was that??????? > Here's the story, jeep hasn't ran for couple months, went to start it the > other day to move it out of garage, it was dead, jumped it, moved it out of [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > so I move the jeep to where I wanted it, start it 2 times fine, so what the > hell was that??????? That can happen with a bad connection arc raising the temp or pulling too many amps. The bad connection causes too many amps to go through the cable which can arc the solenoid plate inside. How is the cable to the starter and the connection on the starter? What about the starter's brushes? If I remember right, a low battery makes the above effect happen easier. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) >> Here's the story, jeep hasn't ran for couple months, went to start it the >> other day to move it out of garage, it was dead, jumped it, moved it out of [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >too many amps. The bad connection causes too many amps to go through >the cable which can arc the solenoid plate inside. I take it you've never heard of ohm's law. Higher resistance doesn't increase current flow. >How is the cable to the starter and the connection on the starter? What >about the starter's brushes? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 >(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) But a low amperage will melt a starter and often the cables and solenoid going it, usually not allowing us to shut off the starting motor until the battery is completely dead. God Bless America, Bill 0|||||||0 mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > I take it you've never heard of ohm's law. Higher resistance doesn't > increase current flow.  SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > I take it you've never heard of ohm's law. Higher resistance doesn't > increase current flow. Unless you've designed switches, you probably don't know much about closure rate and contact pressure to minimize arc-over, either. Slow or soft closure allows momentary arcing which is a great way to weld contacts. Hard closure also helps overcome the oxidation layer that forms almost instantly on most pure metals like the copper used in those starter relays. All that is an effect of high resistance restricting the current through the solenoid coil which gives you a weak closure. SignatureWill Honea whonea@yahoo.com >> I take it you've never heard of ohm's law. Higher resistance doesn't >> increase current flow. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >All that is an effect of high resistance restricting the current through >the solenoid coil which gives you a weak closure. Never designed a switch, but have replaced many welded relays caused by low current flow. At some time in your battery because disconnect while the engine was running and popped the alternator diode in that instant. The battery is now discharging into that trigger wire powering your ignition switch from the off side. On cars with an idiot light, that light will be burning while the ignition switch is off, and the battery is being discharged. God Bless America, Bill 0|||||||0 mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > Here's the story, jeep hasn't ran for couple months, went to start it the > other day to move it out of garage, it was dead, jumped it, moved it out of > garage, tried starting again, just click click, click, I figured battery was [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > so I move the jeep to where I wanted it, start it 2 times fine, so what the > hell was that??????? SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com I read the rest of the replies, mostly argueing about resistence, anyway Mike I cleaned all connections on bat. solinoid, and alt. only one I didn't clean was one down at starter, and starter and bat cables are about a year old. Bill mentioned at some point bat. was disconnected while running, that didn't happen, but when I thought the bat. was dead the other day I used my battery charger which has a setting for 70 amps to start a vehicle, which I used and it arced when disconncting it. I replaced everything on engine when I put a rebuilt in 1 1/2 years ago, all but alt. Am I now ready for that? > Here's the story, jeep hasn't ran for couple months, went to start it the > other day to move it out of garage, it was dead, jumped it, moved it out [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > the jeep to where I wanted it, start it 2 times fine, so what the hell was > that??????? > I read the rest of the replies, mostly argueing about resistence, anyway > Mike I cleaned all connections on bat. solinoid, and alt. only one I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > engine when I put a rebuilt in 1 1/2 years ago, all but alt. Am I now > ready for that? First start with a known good battery. A fully charged battery should read around 12.65 volts. The voltage reading you got when ckecking your battery, 11.96, indicates a battery that is 80% DISCHARGED. >> Here's the story, jeep hasn't ran for couple months, went to start it >> the other day to move it out of garage, it was dead, jumped it, moved it [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> the jeep to where I wanted it, start it 2 times fine, so what the hell >> was that??????? Mike, I agree with these numbers. Greg, You should have over 12 volts and 12.65 sounds about right with everything off. At idle you should have over 13 volts, about 13.8 at fast idle if memory serves. Any more than that means your alternator is working hard to charge the battery. Less than 12.5 volts at fast idle indicates the alternator is not charging the battery. Do you have a guage in the dash or an idiot light? Merrill > > I read the rest of the replies, mostly argueing about resistence, anyway > > Mike I cleaned all connections on bat. solinoid, and alt. only one I [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > - Show quoted text - >> I read the rest of the replies, mostly argueing about resistence, anyway >> Mike I cleaned all connections on bat. solinoid, and alt. only one I [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > read around 12.65 volts. The voltage reading you got when ckecking your > battery, 11.96, indicates a battery that is 80% DISCHARGED. 80% discharged!? No, how about 20% discharged?. Actually, 11.96 is 94.5% of 12.65. This makes the discharge rate to be less than 6%. >>> I read the rest of the replies, mostly argueing about resistence, anyway >>> Mike I cleaned all connections on bat. solinoid, and alt. only one I [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Actually, 11.96 is 94.5% of 12.65. This makes the discharge rate to be > less than 6%. Actually about 11.88 is 100% discharged so you need to redo your math. Like I said before, a voltage reading of 11.96 indicates an 80% discharged battery. >>>> I read the rest of the replies, mostly argueing about resistence, >>>> anyway Mike I cleaned all connections on bat. solinoid, and alt. only [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Like I said before, a voltage reading of 11.96 indicates an 80% discharged > battery. Sorry, I don't follow you. Please 'splain me it. I'm pretty sure my cars start easily with 11.88 vDC. It's not even close to being fully discharged. STATE-OF-CHARGE TEST at about a quarter down the page of: http://www.repairfaq.org/ELE/F_Car_Battery.html#CARBATTERY_003 God Bless America, Bill 0|||||||0 mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > Sorry, I don't follow you. Please 'splain me it. > > I'm pretty sure my cars start easily with 11.88 vDC. It's not even close to > being fully discharged. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com After reading Bills page, me thinks I need a new battery. > STATE-OF-CHARGE TEST at about a quarter down the page of: > http://www.repairfaq.org/ELE/F_Car_Battery.html#CARBATTERY_003 [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > to >> being fully discharged. Bill's Google link, not worth bookmarking. God Bless America, Bill 0|||||||0 mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > After reading Bills page, me thinks I need a new battery. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com [...] >>>> First start with a known good battery. A fully charged battery should >>>> read around 12.65 volts. The voltage reading you got when ckecking your [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Sorry, I don't follow you. Please 'splain me it. A battery is not like a capacitor. While the voltage and charge still are related, it is not a linear relation. First hit on google actually seems to agree with Mike. http://www.wind-sun.com/PDF_Files/battvoltandsoc.pdf > I'm pretty sure my cars start easily with 11.88 vDC. It's not even close to > being fully discharged. If your battery is putting out 11.88 V while you are cranking, sure. If that's your battery's voltage at rest and it still has that much charge, I imagine you must have a very large battery. Ivan Jeff Strickland proclaimed: >>>>> I read the rest of the replies, mostly argueing about resistence, >>>>> anyway Mike I cleaned all connections on bat. solinoid, and alt. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > I'm pretty sure my cars start easily with 11.88 vDC. It's not even close > to being fully discharged. Open circuit as opposed to starting load voltage. 9 volts is enough to start as long as it is available at loads of 150 amp or so. > Jeff Strickland proclaimed: > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Open circuit as opposed to starting load voltage. 9 volts is enough to > start as long as it is available at loads of 150 amp or so. I know that. I don't know why anybody would state that 11.88 volts is a fully discharged battery. My logic says that such a charge would be almost full as opposed to almost empty. >>>>>> First start with a known good battery. A fully charged battery >>>>>> should read around 12.65 volts. The voltage reading you got when [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > fully discharged battery. My logic says that such a charge would be > almost full as opposed to almost empty. Jeff, when a battery is reading 12.0 volts at rest it is 'very' iffy if you will get a start out of it. Your connections better be really clean,,, When a battery reads 11.88 volts 'at rest', it has no more power or amps left in it. The two are not linear. Volts is just how fast power can come at you, you need something to push the volts. (more or less) There is only about a 1 volt difference between a battery with all it's cranking amps available and one with none left. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) I don't know how the percentage of discharge thing works either, but when I put the battery on my charger it said it was 40% charged, took 3 hours to charge at the fastest setting, so a 12 volt battery is 60% gone when at 11.88 volts. >> Jeff Strickland proclaimed: >> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > fully discharged battery. My logic says that such a charge would be almost > full as opposed to almost empty. Mike proclaimed: >>>>I read the rest of the replies, mostly argueing about resistence, anyway >>>>Mike I cleaned all connections on bat. solinoid, and alt. only one I [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Like I said before, a voltage reading of 11.96 indicates an 80% discharged > battery. Open circuit voltage of 11.7 is 0% With a load and/or at lower temperature, the voltage is much less. 12.0 open circuit is a 25% charge but under load expect something more like 8-9 volts at zero degrees F, with the complication that a battery with less than 9-10 volts open circuit will tend to charge very slowly at first. If the connection down at the starter is bad enough to cause that, then the cable should get hot. I would try it a few times to see. Other than that, the low battery might be the only issue. When the starter draws on the low battery arcs can seem to happen for whatever reason..... ;-) Mike > I read the rest of the replies, mostly argueing about resistence, anyway > Mike I cleaned all connections on bat. solinoid, and alt. only one I didn't [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >> the jeep to where I wanted it, start it 2 times fine, so what the hell was >> that??????? My starter had a bad winding, or whatever, and did the same thing as the OP's. Usually it would start after trying a few times, and this simulated a battery problem for a while. I eventually had enough of a problem that I was able to isolate the battery as a good component, which left the starter itself as the failure point. > If the connection down at the starter is bad enough to cause that, then > the cable should get hot. I would try it a few times to see. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >>> move the jeep to where I wanted it, start it 2 times fine, so what the >>> hell was that??????? You need to pull the starter. You might be able to fix the trouble and put the starter back in, or you might need to buy a new one. In any case, my money is on a starter problem. > Here's the story, jeep hasn't ran for couple months, went to start it the > other day to move it out of garage, it was dead, jumped it, moved it out [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > the jeep to where I wanted it, start it 2 times fine, so what the hell was > that??????? |
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