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Car Forum / Jeep / April 2007Replacing spark plugs
Hi, I have my '99GC 4.0L 6cyl in the shop for a 90K maintenance. The mechanic just called me and says that he found platinum plugs in there and so he must replace them with platinum plugs. He insists that he cannot replace platinum plugs with regular plugs (which are included in the maintenace charge) and wants to charge me $12 extra per plug. Is this true? I do not intend to keep the car long enough to justify the benefit of platinum plugs, so I'm inclined to go with regular plugs. Is there any downside to this or am I just getting scammed? thanks. -Tin > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > getting > scammed? That's a load of bull. For that much you may as well go buy six plat plugs like the ones that are in there and take them to the mechanic to install. Just remind them to take off the cost of OEM regular plugs from your ticket or give you the plugs since you paid for them.  SignatureDougW Thanks, Doug. I'm just going to insist he replace them with regular plugs and I'll take the *chance* of the engine blowing up :) thx. -Tin > That's a load of bull. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > -- > DougW What does the label say? There should be a label under the hood somewhere that says what kind of plugs you are supposed to use and other emissions related information. If it really does have platinum plugs in there they are supposed to last longer, and they probably don't need to be replaced now. Earle > Thanks, Doug. I'm just going to insist he replace them with regular > plugs and I'll take the *chance* of the engine blowing up :) [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > -- > > DougW > Thanks, Doug. I'm just going to insist he replace them with regular > plugs and I'll take the *chance* of the engine blowing up :) > > thx. > > -Tin There's no danger of the motor blowing up. It just won't run well. >> Thanks, Doug. I'm just going to insist he replace them with regular >> plugs and I'll take the *chance* of the engine blowing up :) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > There's no danger of the motor blowing up. It just won't run well. The platinum plugs will last longer but there will be no difference in the way the engine runs no matter which plug is used. >>> Thanks, Doug. I'm just going to insist he replace them with regular >>> plugs and I'll take the *chance* of the engine blowing up :) [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > The platinum plugs will last longer but there will be no difference in > the way the engine runs no matter which plug is used. Not true IF high power plugs are required. I agree that platinum plugs won't hurt, and they could help. But if they are REQUIRED then they have to be used. Having said that, I do not believe they are required. >>>> Thanks, Doug. I'm just going to insist he replace them with regular >>>> plugs and I'll take the *chance* of the engine blowing up :) [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Not true IF high power plugs are required. Never heard of "high power plugs", care to explain what they are and when the are required ? > I agree that platinum plugs won't hurt, and they could help. But if they > are REQUIRED then they have to be used. I have never seen an engine that REQUIRED plantinum plugs. Platinum plugs are usually used in applications where the plugs are a bitch to replace. The are generally good for 60,000 - 100,000 miles. I have seen regular plugs used in place of platinums quite often and they perform no differently except they don't last as long. > Having said that, I do not believe they are required. > I have never seen an engine that REQUIRED plantinum plugs. Platinum plugs > are usually used in applications where the plugs are a bitch to replace. > The are generally good for 60,000 - 100,000 miles. Before plat was common Bosch made Silver plugs. The idea is that plat (or silver) LASTS LONGER THAN THE PLAIN ONES, oops keeping the gap for longer, as required by smog laws. So instead of changing plugs at normal intervals, Plats make cleaner air longer for those who don't do proper maintenence. When you get to dual-fire style coils, like mid 90s GM products, one plug fires + while the other fires -, so a dual plat is called for. SignatureStupendous Man, Defender of Freedom, Advocate of Liberty >>>>> Thanks, Doug. I'm just going to insist he replace them with regular >>>>> plugs and I'll take the *chance* of the engine blowing up :) [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Never heard of "high power plugs", care to explain what they are and > when the are required ? Poor choice of words. There are different varities of plugs, some of them are designed to provide high output. If high output plugs are called for, they must be used. I agree with you, if high output plugs are not called for, they probably are not worth the added cost. I once owned a GM car that needed something special in the plug. The catalog at the parts house gave a listing for a plug that was missing a letter or number somewhere in the middle, and this missing digit denoted that the plugs were "high output". I attempted to use the plugs, and the car would not run for crap. Since I was not able to understand all of the digits of the part number, I missed the significance of a digit that was not on the new plugs that I had in my hand. I am not saying that the OP needs platinum plugs, I'm saying that there is benefit in some motors for them. >> I agree that platinum plugs won't hurt, and they could help. But if they >> are REQUIRED then they have to be used. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >> Having said that, I do not believe they are required. > I once owned a GM car that needed something special in the plug. The > catalog at the parts house gave a listing for a plug that was missing > a letter or number somewhere in the middle, and this missing digit > denoted that the plugs were "high output". That missing letter probably indicated no internal resistor. SignatureDougW >> I once owned a GM car that needed something special in the plug. The >> catalog at the parts house gave a listing for a plug that was missing >> a letter or number somewhere in the middle, and this missing digit >> denoted that the plugs were "high output". > > That missing letter probably indicated no internal resistor. "R" innit? Delco, for one, offers a chart to decode spark plug ID numbers: http://www.acdelco.com/parts/sparkplugs/identification.jsp -- "We began to realize, as we plowed on with the destruction of New Jersey, that the extent of our American lunatic fringe had been underestimated." Orson Wells on the reaction to the _War Of The Worlds_ broadcast. >>> I once owned a GM car that needed something special in the plug. The >>> catalog at the parts house gave a listing for a plug that was [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > "R" innit? Yep > Delco, for one, offers a chart to decode spark plug ID numbers: > http://www.acdelco.com/parts/sparkplugs/identification.jsp >> I once owned a GM car that needed something special in the plug. The >> catalog at the parts house gave a listing for a plug that was missing >> a letter or number somewhere in the middle, and this missing digit >> denoted that the plugs were "high output". > > That missing letter probably indicated no internal resistor. Agreed. Whatever it indicated, it was important. >>>>>> Thanks, Doug. I'm just going to insist he replace them with regular >>>>>> plugs and I'll take the *chance* of the engine blowing up :) [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > they must be used. I agree with you, if high output plugs are not called > for, they probably are not worth the added cost. There is no such thing as " high output plugs". > I once owned a GM car that needed something special in the plug. The > catalog at the parts house gave a listing for a plug that was missing a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > digits of the part number, I missed the significance of a digit that was > not on the new plugs that I had in my hand. I'll say it again, there's no such thing as "high output plugs". My bet is that the parts guy gave you a shorter reach spark plug instead of a long reach plug. I have run across that before on the older GM's and they will run like crap with the shorter plugs installed. If the missing digit had been at the end it would have been an "R" designating a reistor plug. That wouln'd make the car run poorly. A missing digit in the middle would either be plug reach or heat range. I'll bet what the parts guy was trying to tell you is that the sprk plugs were listed for the "high output" engine option, not that it was a "high output" spark plug > I am not saying that the OP needs platinum plugs, I'm saying that there is > benefit in some motors for them. Platinum plugs will last longer, that's all. They will not make the engine run an different. >>> I agree that platinum plugs won't hurt, and they could help. But if they >>> are REQUIRED then they have to be used. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >>> Having said that, I do not believe they are required. >>>>>>> Thanks, Doug. I'm just going to insist he replace them with regular >>>>>>> plugs and I'll take the *chance* of the engine blowing up :) [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > is that the parts guy gave you a shorter reach spark plug instead of a > long reach plug. Your bet would cost you money. The two plugs I had were physically identical in size, the difference was internal and was denoted by a missing digit in the part number on the new plugs. The digit was a C if my memory is correct. It doesn't really matter what my particular experience was. My point is, if there is a requirement for the digit, then one must be sure the digit is there. In my case, a digit was missing and the plugs did not work. Does that digit denote Platinum? Can Platinum plugs be made both with and without the digit my plugs were missing? My guess is that the missing digit had nothing at all to do with the platinum content, and I'm certain that neither plug I had was platinum. The following excerpt is from the 2003 Mopar Spark Plug Catalogue (page 9) "The spark plugs below are specifically designed by Bosch for the optimum performance of your Mopar engine. Each package contains four spark plugs." and then lists the engines are recommended sparks. I'll forward a copy to Bill for his records. >>>>>>> Thanks, Doug. I'm just going to insist he replace them with regular >>>>>>> plugs and I'll take the *chance* of the engine blowing up :) [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] >>> >>>> Having said that, I do not believe they are required. >>>> Thanks, Doug. I'm just going to insist he replace them with regular >>>> plugs and I'll take the *chance* of the engine blowing up :) [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Not true IF high power plugs are required. Platinum plugs resist wear better. That's it. They are not 'high power' (whatever that means). >I agree that platinum plugs won't hurt, and they could help. But if they are >REQUIRED then they have to be used. > >Having said that, I do not believe they are required. On 5 Apr 2007 15:29:31 -0700 in <1175812171.360267.184210@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, "tinman" <tintinrao@gmail.com> graced the world with this thought: >Thanks, Doug. I'm just going to insist he replace them with regular >plugs and I'll take the *chance* of the engine blowing up :) And right after that, you might place a call to your local BBB and report his dumb a.s. If no one ever does anything about bunk mechanics, they'll just go one screwing people every chance they get. Depends on where you live. If your engine is spec'd with platinum plugs for emissions [should be in your owners manual] then a mechanic might get in trouble replacing them with anything else, depending on the local smog laws. You could always call a dealer parts place and ask them if that engine spec's platinum plugs as oem. Apparently some of the 99 engines do. A dealer parts department would also be able to tell you if you must replace them with platinum for smog reasons or not. tinman proclaimed: > Thanks, Doug. I'm just going to insist he replace them with regular > plugs and I'll take the *chance* of the engine blowing up :) [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >>-- >>DougW That engine came from the factory with copper Champions as your 'mechanic' well knows. If you have had no drivability problems with the Platinums (I haven't in 3 Jeeps) you can continue with them but be advised Bosch Platinums RETAIL for less than $2.50 each. > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > -Tin > That engine came from the factory with copper Champions as your 'mechanic' > well knows. > > If you have had no drivability problems with the Platinums (I haven't in > 3 Jeeps) you can continue with them but be advised Bosch Platinums RETAIL > for less than $2.50 each. Bosh spark plugs are junk. I wouldn't put them in a lawn mower. Every time I have seen a car with driveability problems due to bad spark plugs they have always been Bosh. >> Hi, >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> >> -Tin >> That engine came from the factory with copper Champions as your >> 'mechanic' well knows. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Every time I have seen a car with driveability problems due to bad > spark plugs they have always been Bosh. Autolite is what I use. Tried Campion but they look sorta cheap side-by-side with the Autolites. Either way, changing plugs every couple of oil changes lets me keep an eye on the engines internals. Signature-- DougW -- 93 ZJ 4.0 http://revbeergoggles.com HESCO Supercharger - 300W IASCA Stereo - Edelbrock IAS Shocks Gibson Exhaust - rear DCpower - custom gauge install - Stillen Rotors Banks Header - and BEER, in the fridge! Jeeps seem to prefer low tech copper plugs for some reason, I've not had a problem with Bosch Platinum plugs in the 25+ years I've used them but maybe I was just lucky. >> That engine came from the factory with copper Champions as your >> 'mechanic' well knows. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >>> >>> -Tin > Bosh spark plugs are junk. I wouldn't put them in a lawn mower. Every > time I have seen a car with driveability problems due to bad spark plugs > they have always been Bosh. I have been using Bosch plugs for over 30 years as a professional mechanic, and have seen one bad new plug. I have seen quite a few bad new Champions, though. SignatureStupendous Man, Defender of Freedom, Advocate of Liberty >> Bosh spark plugs are junk. I wouldn't put them in a lawn mower. >> Every time I have seen a car with driveability problems due to bad [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > mechanic, and have seen one bad new plug. I have seen quite a few bad > new Champions, though. Yea. If you've ever sat a Champion beside an Autolite, the Champion looks cheap. Pot metal instead of forged cheap. I'm running Champs right now but will switch to Autolite in a few more miles. SignatureDougW Looks like it, the Mopar part number is Mopar SP000ZFR5N Resistor Copper Plug The only mention I can find of platinums is for the HO 4.7 Ask your mechanic if he has a smog license and wants to keep it. Some states are more hostile than others regarding smog scams. billy ray proclaimed: > That engine came from the factory with copper Champions as your 'mechanic' > well knows. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >> >>-Tin > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > -Tin It may or may not be a load of crap. It doesn't matter what he found, it only matters what the design calls for. I don't know what they designed for that motor, but my 258 (4.2L, sotrta) just takes standard plugs. I can't imagine your 4.0L requires platinum plugs, I suspect a previous owner put them in, or if you are the previous onwer then a shop installed them for you for any number of reasons. What I can say with certainty is that if you need high performance plugs, and you get standard plugs, the motor won't run worth a sh.t. I once owned a brand spanking new GM car with a High Output (quotes needed there) 2.8L V6 that -- I swear to God -- could not get out of its own way. Well, by and by I decided to replace the spark plugs because it was time. I went to the corner store and they looked up in the catalog, and came back with the "right" plugs. I installed them, and went for a test drive on the main drag in my town. Not only couldn't I get out of my own way, I became serious problem to the general population also using the main drag. I got back to my driveway, and checked EVERYTHING. Yes, everything. I had to take the car to the local tune up shop, and the guy pulled a plug and reported, "here's your trouble." It turns out the plug requirement was for some Hot-Snot Copper Core something or other, but all I had was regular snot. I took the regular snot and the mechanic's bill to the auto parts store, but all I got back was the cost for the crappy plugs. The moral of the story is, you might need hot-snot spark plugs, in which case you should get them. I think you can use the regular snot plugs though, and save several dollars. >> Hi, >> [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > case you should get them. I think you can use the regular snot plugs > though, and save several dollars. Are you sure you didn't get a set of Bosh plugs the first time ? The only difference between regular plugs and platnium plugs, ( besides the plantinums costing 4-6 times more) is the plantinum plugs last longer. Regular plugs will last about 30,000 miles. The plantinums will go to between 60,000 and 80,000 miles. There is no difference in performance. > Are you sure you didn't get a set of Bosh plugs the first time ? The only > difference between regular plugs and platnium plugs, ( besides the > plantinums costing 4-6 times more) is the plantinum plugs last longer. > Regular plugs will last about 30,000 miles. The plantinums will go to > between 60,000 and 80,000 miles. There is no difference in performance. Got news for ya. Lots of Jeep I6 engines will not run for sh.t on Bosch platinum plugs. Too many folks get suckered by the hype and figure more expensive must be better eh. I have easily fixed many bad idle issues by simply tossing the fancy expensive plugs in the trash while replacing them with cheap Champions. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > > Are you sure you didn't get a set of Bosh plugs the first time ? The > > only difference between regular plugs and platnium plugs, ( besides [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > platinum plugs. Too many folks get suckered by the hype and figure more > expensive must be better eh. I don't believe that this is because platinum plugs are inherently bad. They don't work right in many applications, just because somebody gets the heat range wrong. That could be a bad listing, a half asleep parts jockey or any number of factors. The only way to get the right heat range, unless you are racing and have a radically modified engine, in which case you are assumed to know what you are doing, heh, is to use OEM plugs. The type of plug you need, is on the under hood label, in the owner's manual and in the shop manual. There is a big difference in performance, as Mike says, if you put the wrong part in your engine. Cheers, Earle >>> Are you sure you didn't get a set of Bosh plugs the first time ? The >>> only difference between regular plugs and platnium plugs, ( besides [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Earle This may or may not be related, but some aftermarket ignitions for racing/high performance specify NOT to use platinum plugs. I do not know the reason. As far as brands, I too have had problems with certain brands of plugs in certain brands of engines, but some of these engines were modifyed also. I have had the best luck with Autolite personally. I had an old Mercury outboard that called for Champion plugs, but they would foul out after a few weeks. I did a lot of trolling (not newsgroups, lol) and the plugs would just crap out after a few weeks. A simple cross reference to Autolite and I got a full summer of fishing without any fouled plugs. OTOH, I have had engines that would run on Champions and nothing else. Chris >> Are you sure you didn't get a set of Bosh plugs the first time ? The >> only difference between regular plugs and platnium plugs, ( besides the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I have easily fixed many bad idle issues by simply tossing the fancy > expensive plugs in the trash while replacing them with cheap Champions. I have had the same bad experience with Bosh plugs that you have, Mke, and not just with jeeps. Just replace the Bosh plugs with ANY other brand and the vehicle runs well again. Let me clarify the above massage you quoted. ALL Bosh plugs are JUNK, platinum or regular. Now, the following pertains to good quality spark plugs. The only difference between a regular and a platinum spark plug is that the platinum spark plug will last longer. There will be no difference in performance between the two. > Mike > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's > Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! > Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > Let me clarify the above massage you quoted. ALL Bosh plugs are JUNK, . How many junk Bosch plugs have you replaced? Were they installed with a torque wrench? Were they the correct plugs for the applications? I began my career as a German auto tech in 1976 and I prefer Bosch. What kind of experience is your opinion based upon? SignatureStupendous Man, Defender of Freedom, Advocate of Liberty >> Let me clarify the above massage you quoted. ALL Bosh plugs are JUNK, > > . How many junk Bosch plugs have you replaced? Were they installed with a > torque wrench? Were they the correct plugs for the applications? > I began my career as a German auto tech in 1976 and I prefer Bosch. What > kind of experience is your opinion based upon? My experience is based on both American engines and European and Japanese.... Jeep straight six ones in particular... I have seen a whole pile of older Jeep engines come to me for help because no one can make them run. When I look, see Bosch and say 'bad plugs', they 'all' say, but but but, they are the expensive plugs and they are new! As soon as I toss them out and drop Champion plugs in, the bad running and missing at idle issues are gone. Bosch 'used' to be good good plugs and they worked well in my past experience for some of the higher compression engines, like VW and Volvo but the Jeep 'thumper' engines just don't like them from what I have seen. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) >> Let me clarify the above massage you quoted. ALL Bosh plugs are JUNK, > > . How many junk Bosch plugs have you replaced? I never tried to keep count. If I had to guess I'd say I have had around 50-60 vehicles that didn't run right with Bosh plugs. Were they installed with a > torque wrench? Don't know as I wasn't the one that installed them. That said, why do you think a torque wrench would make a difference ? I personally never use a torque wrench on spark plugs and have never had a problem in over 30 years. Were they the correct plugs for the applications? I had no way of checking that. > I began my career as a German auto tech in 1976 and I prefer Bosch. You are the ONLY tech I have run into that actually likes Bosh plugs. Everyone else has had problems with Bosh plugs at one time or another. What > kind of experience is your opinion based upon? I have been working on cars for over 30 years, most of that professionally. I have worked in dealerships and independent shops. My experience with Bosh is that the customer comes in complaining about the way their car runs, check engine light may or may not be on and they just had a tune up done 1 week to 1 month ago. I bring the car in to look it over and all the tune up parts are new. Remove Bosh plugs and replace with any other brand and car runs great. This gets to be a common problem so anytime I get a vehicle with a driveability problem that has Bosh plugs installed I replace the Bosh plugs first. Everytime the Bosh plugs are replaced with another brand driveablity problems are gone as well. I also can say from experience that some cars appear to run OK with Bosh plugs. I have run across a few vehicles that had Bosh plugs installed that ran fine. However, every tech I have talked to has had a similiar ( read bad ) experience with Bosh plugs. Oh, I looked at all the Bosh plugs that I replaced because of problems and you could see nothing wrong with the plugs, they all looked like new. Yet a new set of plugs, anything but Bosh, cured the problems. That's my experience and that's why I won't use anything Bosh makes. I would wonder if your GAP was off. Someone can correct me...but when your GAP is too big, if you draw the curve of how much current is at the plug when it sparks, you'll see that this takes longer to achieve then when it's GAP'd properly. So, you lose some power. Putting in different "types" of plugs with different metal contacts probably means your timing will change too (this is on the matter of milliseconds though! The different materials are to reduce oxidation from the sparking and to allow for hotter applications (more current). If you go with hotter plugs, you might want to upgrade your plug wires too (drawing more current, wires heat up some). Anyhow, just replaced mine with OEM plugs and runs great! If you change plugs and things run better...odds are the gap was off or the plugs were dirty! I hadn't changed plugs until 100,000km and the GAP was HUGE (twice the suggest gap of 35thou). Plugs cost me $20canadian. cheers > > I have my '99GC 4.0L 6cyl in the shop for a 90K maintenance. The > > mechanic [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > case you should get them. I think you can use the regular snot plugs though, > and save several dollars. My '00 Sport came with and calls for Champion standard copper-core plugs. I can't imagine a model year older vehicle requiring the platinum plugs. Agree with whats already been posted; it doesn't matter what the guy found, it's what the proper plug is that counts. Check theunderhood decal or, if you have the owners manual, I'll bet you'll find the plug type listed in there. Sounds to me like this guy just wants to gouge you on a set of plugs you don't need. mike 00XJ My 4.0 6cyl, albeit in a TJ, uses NGK ZFR5N plugs with a 35 thousandths gap. That's what my owners manual says. I can't imagine platinum plugs being "required". > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > -Tin SignatureFRH |
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