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Car Forum / Jeep / April 2007YJ front locker?
What would anyone recomend for a front locker for a 95 YJ dana 30, cheap, I put an Ox in my CJ front end, love it, but daughter can't afford a grand for that, she has a detroit in the ford 9" rear end by the way. I would want a selectable in the front, but the only selectables I know of are Ox and ARB, both $$. Powertrax lockright is a great lunchbox locker, and cheap, too. Carl > What would anyone recomend for a front locker for a 95 YJ dana 30, cheap, > I put an Ox in my CJ front end, love it, but daughter can't afford a grand > for that, she has a detroit in the ford 9" rear end by the way. >Powertrax lockright is a great lunchbox locker, and >cheap, too. And a very poor choice for a front drive axle. It can only drive both ties at same speed or drive one wheel coasting the other under little or no power. It will increase turning radius in 4x4 and it will send a LOT or torque whip back through steering wheel in tight turns (because Ujoint are not constant velocity). You want a selectable locker or a True Trax gear based LSD up there (the True Trax plays well in front drive axle and Oshkosh snow plow trucks have been using gear based LSD for about 30 years now and there is nothing light duty about them) ----------------- TheSnoMan.com And the OP's YJ has an axle disconnect that makes your comments irrelevant. >>Powertrax lockright is a great lunchbox locker, and >>cheap, too. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > ----------------- > TheSnoMan.com >And the OP's YJ has an axle disconnect that makes your comments irrelevant. Typical troll again because when you use the front axle under power it has to have wheels turn at a different speeds in a turn due to physics involved and then there is the fact that Ujoints are not constant velocity in a turn so they complicate this further and the net result is nasty driveline bind and wheels having to skid in a turn and loose traction and reduce truning radius. (not to mention strain of front axles, joints and stub shafts) You would know this if you really knew about the physics involved but your knowledge is very limited here and push button 4x4 drive was made just for "people" like you. I tell it like it is not like you want to believe it is. Listen and read sometimes and you might just learn something. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com >>And the OP's YJ has an axle disconnect that makes your comments >>irrelevant. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > ----------------- > TheSnoMan.com You underestimate the depth and breadth of Roy's knowledge. Roy is more right than you are. >You underestimate the depth and breadth of Roy's knowledge. > >Roy is more right than you are. My opion hsa been based on his stupid answer and if you think theey are intelligent than you are in the same boat as him. Ignoring the physics involved does not render them moot but you both seem to think it does. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com > My opion hsa been based on his stupid answer and if you think theey > are intelligent than you are in the same boat as him. Ignoring the > physics involved does not render them moot but you both seem to think > it does. > ----------------- > TheTrollMan.com Clearly Snoboy is flustered. In snoboy speak that translates to: "Cleraly Snoboy si flustured." >>You underestimate the depth and breadth of Roy's knowledge. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > physics involved does not render them moot but you both seem to think > it does. I live with the physics involved, and they are not what you think they are. I drive a CJ5 with a front locker, AND I leave the front hubs locked nearly 100% of the time. None of the issues you cite are real issues in the grand scheme of things. Yes, I'm certain that the front end might behave differently if the locker was not there, but it does not behave badly in any situation where it matters. It is a bit noisey and clunky in a parking lot, but it is easy to adjust my behavior so the vehicle remains calm and comfortable. I'm sure the front end would behave differently if I bothered to unlock the hubs too. But, my CJ with the hubs locked is exactly the same as a TJ all of the time, and there are lots of TJs with a front locker. My only point is, my life and your physics don't seem to mesh. I'll go with my life, and hope you adopt new physics that are supported by reality. A Detroit type locker will always allow a wheel to turn faster than the drive train. Making it possible to drive around turns or do pirouettes: http://www.billhughes.com/temp/jenjeeproll.mpg God Bless America, Bill 0|||||||0 mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com > Typical troll again because when you use the front axle under power it > has to have wheels turn at a different speeds in a turn due to physics [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > ----------------- > TheSnoMan.com  SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >>Powertrax lockright is a great lunchbox locker, and >>cheap, too. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > for about 30 years now and there is nothing light duty about them) > ----------------- Some of what you say is true, and some is true but of no consequence. In 4WD, the turning radius is certainly larger. My CJ demands a 5-point turn where lesser-equipped vehicles can do a 3-point turn. I'll take the 5-point turn as a cost of increased traction. The torque steer problems you describe are of no consequence in my CJ. I do not live in the Snow Belt, and this clearly could play a role in my expereinces, but lacking snow I would dispute that torque steer is problematic. I have no torque steer problems in 4WD while offroading, but I am not able to address the affects in snow. I would not hesitate to put a LockRight or EZLocker into the front of a YJ or a TJ that lives in an environment similar to where I live. > TheSnoMan.com >The torque steer problems you describe are of no consequence in my CJ. I do >not live in the Snow Belt, and this clearly could play a role in my >expereinces, but lacking snow I would dispute that torque steer is >problematic. I have no torque steer problems in 4WD while offroading, but I >am not able to address the affects in snow. Torque ster is less noticable in snow then hard surfaces and i have NEVER seen a 4x4 with a solid front axle with good traction that did not torque steer in a tractive suface in a tight turn, NEVER. You just take it as normal and do not know that there is a difference. I have been driving them for over 35 years now have you? ----------------- TheSnoMan.com >>The torque steer problems you describe are of no consequence in my CJ. I >>do [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > take it as normal and do not know that there is a difference. I have > been driving them for over 35 years now have you? You have absdolutely no clue what I do and do not know. None. You apparently think it is not normal, and therefore is a problem. I told you that torque steer is not a problem. It is not a problem. I certainly notice it, but it is not a problem from either a mechanical standpoint or a control standpoint. Torque steer is of no consequence. Ever. Loss of turning radius can be a problem, but my transmission allows me to change directions and try again. I'm okay with this, and the added traction is well worth the effort to turn twice. I did not say one word about a solid axle, but I agree that a locker is as close as you can get without actually having one. Well of COURSE you will have BINDING on a high traction surface with any 'part time' locked transfer case. But BINDING is NOT Torque Steer (your term). On any turn, the front wheels (note that this is PLURAL as in TWO of them) (sorry, I have to be REALLY expicit for retards) will travel a different distance than the corresponding rear wheels. With the locked transfer case, something must slip or give. But of course, the standard advice to newbies is to NEVER EVER run a part time transfer case in 4wd mode on high traction surfaces. So, after your 35 years, it appears that you should take the advice to not run it on high traction surfaces. >>The torque steer problems you describe are of no consequence in my CJ. I do >>not live in the Snow Belt, and this clearly could play a role in my [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > ----------------- > TheSnoMan.com > What would anyone recomend for a front locker for a 95 YJ > dana 30, cheap, I put an Ox in my CJ front end, love it, but > daughter can't afford a grand for that, she has a detroit in the > ford 9" rear end by the way. Workable solutions are Warn locking hubs for the front, over a grand I think, or something like an Ox. If you can psyche yourself into believing that the permanently locked driver's side hub won't affect anything, you might try something cheaper. Earle I vote lunchbox, as already suggested, but if want to see eyes light up as you crawl passed them, go Lincoln Locker: http://www.billhughes.com/temp/lincolnLocker.mpg God Bless America, Bill 0|||||||0 mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > What would anyone recomend for a front locker for a 95 YJ dana 30, cheap, > I put an Ox in my CJ front end, love it, but daughter can't afford a grand > for that, she has a detroit in the ford 9" rear end by the way. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com On Sun, 8 Apr 2007 20:07:34 -0700, "L.W. \(Bill\) Hughes III" <billhughes@cox.net> wrote: >if want to see eyes light up >as you crawl passed them, go Lincoln Locker: This is the absolute poorest choice for a front axle. Just do that and try to drive and manuver it. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com > On Sun, 8 Apr 2007 20:07:34 -0700, "L.W. \(Bill\) Hughes III" > <billhughes@cox.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > ----------------- > TheSnoMan.com First, you're an idiot snojob. Second, no one invited your bullshit here. Third, if you spent any quality time in this group at all, you'd know that Bill was kidding. So, go back to your hole. Spdloader >First, you're an idiot snojob. >Second, no one invited your bullshit here. >Third, if you spent any quality time in this group at all, you'd know that Once a troll always a troll as you just cannot get it out of your blood can you. You may think your are being cute but others can see you for what you are. Some come here looking for advise and some like you come here to make jokes and act like a troll. Knock yourself out! ----------------- TheSnoMan.com >>First, you're an idiot snojob. >>Second, no one invited your bullshit here. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > ----------------- > TheSnoMan.com Don't say I didn't warn you. The folks in this group won't put up with your ridiculous crap nearly as long as the ones in the Ford Trucks group did before they see you for what you are. Can you not take a hint? Go away. Spdloader > Once a troll always a troll as you just cannot get it out of your > blood can you. You may think your are being cute but others can see > you for what you are. Some come here looking for advise and some like > you come here to make jokes and act like a troll. Knock yourself out! > ----------------- > TheTrollMan.com How is it when you are the one "casting the bait" that they are the ones trolling? > On Sun, 8 Apr 2007 20:07:34 -0700, "L.W. \(Bill\) Hughes III" > <billhughes@cox.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > ----------------- > TheSnoMan.com YJ's have an axle disconnect.... You should stick to your J10 driveway snow plow SnoMan, we actually drive our 4x4's off and 'on' the road in this group. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) Sno, I agree that the lunchbox is a poor choice for a front axle when it comes to the ability to turn the jeep while in 4x4. However, if someone is looking for a cheap way to get locked up in the front, it works great. Sometimes you must compromise to get a trail-capable machine that you can afford. Carl > On Sun, 8 Apr 2007 20:07:34 -0700, "L.W. \(Bill\) Hughes III" > <billhughes@cox.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > ----------------- > TheSnoMan.com No one answered my question about the front axle disconnect and the YJ's solid hub. If you put a locker in front, does it free-wheel, or does it continuously crank the drive shaft and front axle? Anyone care to venture whether it affects handling or not? Earle > Sno, > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > ----------------- > > TheSnoMan.com I have a CJ5 and a front locker. I keep the front hubs locked about 99% of the time, and the ONLY time I notice the locker is when pulling into a parking space. The front end clangs and bangs around, but I can depress the clutch or shift into N, and the banging and clanging will stop. Your daughter's YJ will be fine. > No one answered my question about the front axle disconnect and the YJ's > solid hub. If you put a locker in front, does it free-wheel, or does it [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >> > ----------------- >> > TheSnoMan.com If I have my front hubs locked in my CJ7, it turns the driveshaft and makes the steering feel 'slightly heavier' when in 2 wheel drive. In my case I have an open diff so I would only be spinning one axle side and the driveshaft which should feel 'exactly' the same as a YJ locked with the axle disconnected in the middle which would only spin one axle side and the driveshaft when in 2 wheel drive. At least the YJ owner wouldn't have to get out to lock her up, just pull the shifter which turns on the 'stock' vacuum motor which locks it up. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > No one answered my question about the front axle disconnect and the YJ's > solid hub. If you put a locker in front, does it free-wheel, or does it [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >>> ----------------- >>> TheSnoMan.com The background: A CJ with the hubs unlocked will have no torque transmitted to the drivetrain. A TJ has no unlocking hub so it continuously drives the front driveshaft with both wheels contributing to the drive. Makes the wheel feel 'heavy', gives it a slight understeer. The YJ is a strange compromise: when in 2wd, the right outer shaft is unlocked so the right wheel has no drivetrain drag (except the outer U-joint if you are turning). The left side is driving the left spider gear, the two spider idlers, and the right spider at full speed in reverse. As long as the spider running freely, there is not enough torque to reverse load the ring and spin the pinion/front drive shaft. The result is that there is a minor but constant drag on the left that is not matched on the right side. It will 'pull' to the left. Given the kluges in the YJ front suspension, it would be hard to notice the minor pull. Adding a locker of any type (lunchbox, gear drive, LSD) will make the ring gear, pinion, and front driveshaft spin at all times. That should be sufficient to give you a slight but noticeable pull to the left at highway speed. A high ratio axle (4:11 or 4.56) will make the effect worse. > No one answered my question about the front axle disconnect and the YJ's > solid hub. If you put a locker in front, does it free-wheel, or does it [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >>>----------------- >>>TheSnoMan.com She has 4.88s, but doesn't go on highways, two ferries to get out of here, 40 miles from one end to other of town, so highway is not much of a concern. > The background: A CJ with the hubs unlocked will have no torque > transmitted to the drivetrain. A TJ has no unlocking hub so it [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >>>>----------------- >>>>TheSnoMan.com She will be pleased with a lunchbox up front. If corning on trails becomes an issue, consider a 2-LO conversion kit for said turns. Carl > She has 4.88s, but doesn't go on highways, two ferries to get out of > here, 40 miles from one end to other of town, so highway is not much of a [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] >>>>>----------------- >>>>>TheSnoMan.com She has a YJ with a vacuum disconnect on the front locker's axle for tight turns that only needs a shift lever move.... Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > She will be pleased with a lunchbox up front. If corning on trails becomes > an issue, consider a 2-LO conversion kit for said turns. [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] >>>>>> ----------------- >>>>>> TheSnoMan.com Ah, thats right. A posi-lock is pretty cheap. Carl > She has a YJ with a vacuum disconnect on the front locker's axle for tight > turns that only needs a shift lever move.... [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] >>>>>>> ----------------- >>>>>>> TheSnoMan.com That sounds OK then. Let us know how it goes. I would price a Detroit Locker and an insert type both, before making the decision. Earle > She has 4.88s, but doesn't go on highways, two ferries to get out of here, > 40 miles from one end to other of town, so highway is not much of a concern. > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > >>>>----------------- > >>>>TheSnoMan.com I have a Lockrite in my 91 YJ. I have no problems with it. Turning radius is decreased in 4x4 mode, but who cares. After two years of 4 wheeling, I did have to replace the springs in it for $20. Lock-rite cost less than $200 and you can install it with out reseting the ring and pinion gears. > That sounds OK then. Let us know how it goes. I would price a Detroit > Locker and an insert type both, before making the decision. [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] >> >>>>----------------- >> >>>>TheSnoMan.com Thanks for the info! Earle > I have a Lockrite in my 91 YJ. I have no problems with it. Turning radius > is decreased in 4x4 mode, but who cares. After two years of 4 wheeling, I [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > >> >>>>----------------- > >> >>>>TheSnoMan.com > No one answered my question about the front axle disconnect and the YJ's > solid hub. If you put a locker in front, does it free-wheel, or does it > continuously crank the drive shaft and front axle? Anyone care to venture > whether it affects handling or not? I bought an old Scout from from the DNR when the AF decided I needed a tour in WI. Thing had positraction front and rear and I did like Mike - ran the hubs locked most of the time. I really couldn't tell any difference with the hubs unlocked until a front U-joint went south on the driveshaft - the unloaded shaft really rattled around spinning in 2wd! After my first (and last) encounter with 3 inches of snow over an inch of ice, the front posi came out but that was preference, not necessity or ill mannered steering. SignatureWill Honea whonea@yahoo.com ... > After my first (and last) encounter with 3 inches of snow over an > inch of ice, the front posi came out but that was preference, not > necessity or ill mannered steering. I hit a long downhill stretch of semi-frozen slush Sunday with the Wrangler in four wheel drive. Amazing how the front and rear want to switch places, even with open differentials. Earle > ... > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Earle I live in New England and drive in snow and semi-frozen slush a lot and I have yet to spin out or have a problem. Maybe speed was an issue. 2006 Jeep Wrangler X Stock Tires. > > ... > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > and I have yet to spin out or have a problem. Maybe speed was an > issue. Duh. Earle LOL God Bless America, Bill 0|||||||0 mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > Duh. > > Earle SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > > > "Will Honea" <who...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Duh. Another failure linked to our education system > Earle- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Yes, but you are a zillion time closer to control than most passenger cars. God Bless America, Bill 0|||||||0 mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > I hit a long downhill stretch of semi-frozen slush Sunday with the Wrangler > in four wheel drive. Amazing how the front and rear want to switch places, > even with open differentials. > > Earle SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com If I had had the nerve to goose the accelerator a little I know I could have pulled right out of it. What I did was stay off the brakes and steer with the skid. But it over-corrected three or four times on me. San Juan Mountains are not suitable for four wheeling yet, heh, but the snow pack is pretty light. Look for a good year, but you might have to pack water and there may be camping restrictions like there were five years ago. Earle > Yes, but you are a zillion time closer to control than most passenger > cars. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > > > Earle It 'sure' takes practice to be comfortable 'on the gas' in situations like that doesn't it. I grew up in an ice storm central area so learned young. :-) I used to take out groups here to the local mud pits come first freeze up to learn how to feel comfortable running pit walls up and down in snow and ice. I recommend that to all. At least practice in an empty parking lot come first snow. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > If I had had the nerve to goose the accelerator a little I know I could have > pulled right out of it. What I did was stay off the brakes and steer with [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >>> >>> Earle I "practiced" in a 1962 Volkswagen sedan with five people in it, wow thirty-five years ago or more. Lost it halfway down a long icy hill in Western Massachusetts, women screaming in the back, guy in the middle saying, "Easy Earle, you've got it now". Steer with the skid and you are OK. The first time trying to slow with engine braking in a front drive car was a surprise. Cheers, Earle > It 'sure' takes practice to be comfortable 'on the gas' in situations > like that doesn't it. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > >>> > >>> Earle Yup, that's why they forced antilock brakes on us. Now instead of skidding sideways, or piling up a little snow in front of a wheel, we blow right through stop signs. God Bless America, Bill 0|||||||0 mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > I "practiced" in a 1962 Volkswagen sedan with five people in it, wow > thirty-five years ago or more. Lost it halfway down a long icy hill in [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Earle SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com LOL Reminds me of my 72 Super Beetle VW. I used to rip around on the frozen river, up and down the snowmobile trails....etc (my young rebel days) Other than my Jeep that car was a hoot to drive, cheap on gas too :-) > I "practiced" in a 1962 Volkswagen sedan with five people in it, wow > thirty-five years ago or more. Lost it halfway down a long icy hill in [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] >>>>> >>>>>Earle I had a 68 VW that was too much fun on snowmobile trails and logging roads too. Mike > LOL Reminds me of my 72 Super Beetle VW. > I used to rip around on the frozen river, up and down the [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] >>>>>> >>>>>> Earle I have a detroit in the rear, and a lunch box up front on my TJ. I like it a lot. In 2wd, the front isn't noticed, in 4wd, it still turns fine. John in Vegas > Sno, > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > ----------------- > > TheSnoMan.com |
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