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Car Forum / Jeep / April 2007'88 Grand Wagon frame rusted
Sad story... My beloved '88 Jeep Grand Wagoneer, my trusted friend for the last 18 years, apparently has a terminal case of frame rust that won't pass inspection. In the past, my mechanic has fixed this by welding in patches but he now says that the frame has to be replaced, it's so bad it cannot be repaired. I'd love to keep this vehicle. I know it's hard to answer this because you don't have all the details, but has anyone dealth with a frame restoration? How involved? Expensive? Thansk in advance. > Sad story... > My beloved '88 Jeep Grand Wagoneer, my trusted friend for the last 18 years, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Thansk in advance. I am soon to be in that position with my CJ7. There is minimal 'repairing' I can do to it because there is no real steel left, it has crystallized. I know my body will come off in modules and in one piece because it is fiberglass that I installed 7 years ago. The big issue is how much steel is left in your body, particularly the area around the mounts. If they are solid, then your Jeep might be worth a new frame. In my case only one bolt came out of the body tub without cutting or snapping.... Jeeps are nice because they do come apart in pieces pretty easy. The wiring harness comes apart in modules at the fuse panel when you unbolt the center bolt. When the body is lifted off the frame, it is then relatively easy to plumb up the new frame for gas and brake and vent lines before the body goes back on. I guess the trick is to find a new frame that the maker didn't think was gold plated. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > > Sad story... > > My beloved '88 Jeep Grand Wagoneer, my trusted friend for the last 18 years, [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > I guess the trick is to find a new frame that the maker didn't think was > gold plated. For a Wagoneer? Good luck. I've seen some relatively intact vehicles in New Mexico and Colorado used car lots, but they think the whole vehicle is gold plated. There's an older one north of Durango on 550 with a for sale for $500 sign on the windshield... Earle >Sad story... >My beloved '88 Jeep Grand Wagoneer, my trusted friend for the last 18 years, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Thansk in advance. There is a classic rust weakness area in the frame used under that vehicle. Usually it is in front of rear axle were it rusts to the point it breaks. Jeep used a thinner alloyed frame that was strong but prone to rust. J10', fullsized Cherokees and Wagoneers were prone to this problem. J20's were not because they had a much heavier frame. It do not think it would be too hard to find a frame because the same basic one was used for over 20 years. It can be done but I would suggest that if you replace it sandblast and paint frame you plane to use before installing it. If you want to get extreme, you could look into using a J20 frame and shortening it to proper length. This is extra work and cost but if cleaned and paint it would easilly out last the rest of vehicle. Personally if it is in good shape I think it is worth it because it is a real classic and was ahead of its time. Sturdy vehicle too. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com Saw this article recently, local paper http://www.philly.com/philly/business/homepage/20070405_Wagoneers_ho__Still_roll ing_on.html > On Fri, 13 Apr 2007 13:51:26 GMT, "Mark Corbelli" > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > ----------------- > TheSnoMan.com >Saw this article recently, local paper > >http://www.philly.com/philly/business/homepage/20070405_Wagoneers_ho__Still_roll ing_on.html There is another guy that has built a big bussiness out of buying, refurbing and reselling them too for top dollar and has no shortage of buyers. As I recall he is somewhere around texas. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com I have a bit more information...my mechanic says the main reason it won't pass now is that the frame is rusted where the support for the gas tank is and that has to be fixed to so the gas tank is supported properly. He has enough good metal that he can tack weld pieces of good metal in places and pass it for another year, but after that he doubts he can fix it any further. He says if I can find a good frame somewhere, it's about a 30 hour job over three days @ $70 per hour to completely remove every piece off the old frame and rebuild it on the new frame. I have decided to park the car for now until I can research and find out if I can reasonably expect to find a decent frame somewhere. The car has about 90,000 miles on the engine, 180,000 on the car. I've had it since it was 2 years old. Otherwise it runs well, and most everything still works. Mark, Well, suffice it to say you're looking at a fair bill to swap out that frame -- I think the hour figure is high since most likely you will be purchasing a wrecked/rolling chassis -- so you don't swap every assembly in the process, you roll the old one out and roll the new one under. So you're looking at labor, a rolling chassis, one or two tows, and every nut, bolt, and replaceable assembly that gets touched in the proce$$....a number that eclipses the value of a good example from a rust-free area. For the record (as someone who worked/killed time in one), I think you really need to take it by a local welding shop before you park it for good -- if I'm correct in interpreting your mechanic's issues, there is no structural issue with the frame rails (Otherwise you'd have suspension problems or bumpers that fall off), and the crossmembers are what have rotted off. If that's correct, there's no reason why a local welding shop can't put together something that will outlast the rest of the vehicle....and for a fraction of the price. And while your'e in there, it's a great opportunity to do some rust prevention in the vicinity. I'll stop here... Jon I went down to the garage and picked the Jeep up today. I had a broken driver's side door pull and had them price that, but when I heard about the frame problem I stopped all work. When I went to get in the Jeep, the latch assembly was laying in pieces on the floorboard, so I had to wait for a mechanic to put it back together in the pariking lot. The good news was first, I watched him put it back together, so if I can get the part ( a driver's door latch assembly), I'm sure I can do that myself. Second, we had a nice chat about the car. He didn't do the inspection, but we got under it and he pointed some stuff out. For the most part the frame, (and the Jeep in in general) is virtually rust free. There is a middle section that looks like there is a sheet metal pan attached to it, I think this holds up the gas tank or shields it, and that section is rusted and the pan is in pieces (I suspect because mechanics have been poking around the rust so much as I never noticed it before). Anyway, he said fabricators and race shops make frames all the time. He seems to think that it needs to go on a lift, a brace needs to be tacked on both sides to hold it while the bad section is cut out, then a new fabricated piece is welded in. He says the bad section doesn't have places where other parts are bolted on etc..fairly simple. He seems to think it'll cost between $800 and $1000 and the owner of the shop a) doesn't have the equipment/experience and 2) the shop wouldn't make any real money on the repair like it makes on other less complicated routine stuff that they can turn over quickly. Anyway, it's sitting in front of my house and I think I'll get some more opinions before I try to locate a replacement frame. http://www.4wd.com/productdetails.aspx?pid=57611 A replacement frame for a CJ is $1,799.99. This is made by a company that has done a few of them, so some economy of scale kicks in. A Wagoneer frame would have to be a one-off, so maybe double the price, plus shipping, plus installation. It is true that "fabricators and race shops make frames all the time" but it is just not a reasonable alternative for a 1988 Wagoneer, unless you are totally in love with the vehicle and have lots of money besides. I really believe that the folks you are dealing with are way over their heads on this one. I suggest taking the vehicle to a "restoration shop", labelled as such in the Yellow Pages, for a dose of reality. Another thing your mechanic didn't mention is that people who repair frames have to make money too, and someone has to pay for all that fancy equipment they have and absorb the cost of the steel inventory they need, to be able to take jobs like this. That one foot piece of frame that needs to be welded in, has been sitting on someone's rack for twenty years, and you are expected to pay back rent. Sometimes you just have to let them go. Saludos, Earle > I went down to the garage and picked the Jeep up today. I had a broken > driver's side door pull and had them price that, but when I heard about the [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > house and I think I'll get some more opinions before I try to locate a > replacement frame. >A replacement frame for a CJ is $1,799.99. This is made by a company that >has done a few of them, so some economy of scale kicks in. A Wagoneer frame >would have to be a one-off, so maybe double the price, plus shipping, plus >installation. Why a new frame in aftermarket for a steep price? Get a frame from down south or out west that has never seen salt and even if you spend several hundred buck getting it shipped in you will still be far ahead of the game money wise. Also like a said earlier, that frame design was used for over 20 years (actually close to 30 years) unlike frames in other detriot 4x4's so that makes it a a bit eaiser to find one in that you are not confinned to just a few model years. BTW, it I really want a custom frame I would still find a clean old frame and then have it fully boxed and have a stronger frame that cost less than a aftermarket replacement. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com No disrespect but this Jeep spent it's whole life in central Virginia. No road salt, no salt air. I routinely washed the undercarriage. It went on the beach 3-5 times a year for a total of maybe 15 days spent near the ocean per year...If ever there was a frame that was in a geographical region that tradition has it that their should be minimum rust, this is it. I've decided against finding another Jeep and using it's frame as I think you'll have the same problems, or at least the potential for them. >No disrespect but this Jeep spent it's whole life in central Virginia. No >road salt, no salt air. I routinely washed the undercarriage. It went on the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >against finding another Jeep and using it's frame as I think you'll have the >same problems, or at least the potential for them. No disrespect taken, I understand you point about concerns of frame but one factor to consider in this is that "if" you got another frame you could sand blast it (if need be) and treat/paint it to extend its service life. Also while salt usage may be minimal in your area it is still humid vs areas like Texas and the rocky mountain states. BTW, when I was still in school my grandfather (who was a old Willys Jeep man) ordered and bought one of the first Wagoneers ever made in 1963 complete with the "Tornado" inline OHC 6 and automatic. It was a classic I wish I had gotten my hands on before he sold it on a whim over 20 years ago. (It only had 37K on it when he sold it) ----------------- TheSnoMan.com > No disrespect but this Jeep spent it's whole life in central Virginia. No > road salt, no salt air. I routinely washed the undercarriage. It went on the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > against finding another Jeep and using it's frame as I think you'll have the > same problems, or at least the potential for them. You have just described the perfect scenario to rot out a gas tank skid plate. The plates are open which allows sand to get inside if you spin the tires even slightly. This salty sand hangs on any oil or in corners and corrugations and holds humidity. It gets wet every time you drive in the rain. I used a pressure washer for two full days on my frame to try and get all the sand out of it when I pulled the body off my CJ7. The stuck sand was a major factor in the frame rot areas. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) So given that you are right, and that the salt/sand got stuck in the nooks and crannies of the skid plate and held water against the frame, is this region of the frame easier to fix than perhaps somewhere else? > So given that you are right, and that the salt/sand got stuck in the nooks > and crannies of the skid plate and held water against the frame, is this > region of the frame easier to fix than perhaps somewhere else? If it is the part I have in my mind, it is an 'easy' fix, well as 'easy' as any rotted bolt job is going to be. The skid plate unbolts from the frame. I did manage to get the bolts out of mine with some PB Blaster penetrant and an impact air gun. It took some doing and a pile of impacting, but only had to cut two of them. Normally when the skid plate is that gone, so is the gas tank inside it unless you are lucky and have the poly tank like my 86 CJ has. Our 88's gas tank and it's skid rotted out back about 7 or 8 years ago so I have had this happen to both of my Jeeps. You can easily get a replacement skid plate. If that is it, I recommend some 1" holes in the bottom of the new one to let the sand out. I hate guessing on something like that which is why I mentioned a digital camera or even a phone camera to show the area. You can email them to me and I will post them public if you want. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) >So given that you are right, and that the salt/sand got stuck in the nooks >and crannies of the skid plate and held water against the frame, is this >region of the frame easier to fix than perhaps somewhere else? I can tell you a trick I have been using for many years to works really well. I have been running a few plow trucks for many winters and the salt can be really hard on them. I have a 79 J20 that I retired for plow duty a few years ago that has been in the salt in winter basically since it was new. It has not rusted away and frame is still in great shape with very little surface rust on it. What is my trick? Every spring and fall I spray the under side of truck and fender wells, brakelinesl and body seams with 90 weight gear oil in a paint spray gun. (I have even taken grill off to spray behind it and inside of door panels a few times and I even removed tail lights to spray up into bed/fender area. It seem to work better than rust proofing in that it does not trap moisure under it like rust proofing can nor does it hide rust like rustproofing can (it can look fine on surface and be eaten away underneath) The additives in gear oil attacks rust and has a lot of staying power and is hard to wash off (far better than motor oil) and it can get into seams where rust starts. The draw back is that your vehicle smells of gear oil for a few days or so and it is a bit messy to do but rewards are high. If I had not done this my old J20 would have rotted away many years ago. Except for a few smal rust areas the body is in great shape. I do this to my plow and salt spreading equipment too and it is still in fine shape after many seasons of use. I just put my plows in storage last week and I sprayed them down completely before placing them in barn and I can take then out in late fall and they look as they did when they went into storage. After you spray truck many times a residue films starts to form on metal parts than protect metal so sometimes you just need to just do a touch up. None of the chassi bolt on that old jeep are rusted one to this day and i can remove them if need be. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com I used to hear about "hot oil undercoating" when I lived in New England, but there isn't much call for it here in Colorado. I think they use something thicker than gear oil, and heat it up, but the same principle applies. Standard undercoating is a sound insulation product, not a rust-proofer. Earle > >So given that you are right, and that the salt/sand got stuck in the nooks > >and crannies of the skid plate and held water against the frame, is this [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > ----------------- > TheSnoMan.com >I used to hear about "hot oil undercoating" when I lived in New England, but >there isn't much call for it here in Colorado. I think they use something >thicker than gear oil, and heat it up, but the same principle applies. >Standard undercoating is a sound insulation product, not a rust-proofer. In the old day they used to make 600W gear oil for old farm tractor gear boxes. Now straight 140 is about the heaviest you can find. The heavier it is the better. When I spray in warm weather I do not need to heat it and I use air siphon feed spray nozzle with air bleed to lspray a fan pattern that I can spray vertically or horizonally by rotated nozzle and to atomize oil into small droplets. In cold weather I heat the oil up before I spray it on. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com Unfortunately that oil treatment won't work for the OP or anyone who off roads because we have to clean the undersides and frames to get the mud and sand out or oil or no oil, that sand pack will rot things. It works well for street vehicles though. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) >> I used to hear about "hot oil undercoating" when I lived in New England, but >> there isn't much call for it here in Colorado. I think they use something [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > ----------------- > TheSnoMan.com >Unfortunately that oil treatment won't work for the OP or anyone who off >roads because we have to clean the undersides and frames to get the mud >and sand out or oil or no oil, that sand pack will rot things. Actually it will because when you see rust start to appear you can treat it plus water with not wash it off and it will take a few trips through mud to wash it out. Gear oil is tuff to wash off. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com >> Unfortunately that oil treatment won't work for the OP or anyone who off >> roads because we have to clean the undersides and frames to get the mud [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ----------------- > TheSnoMan.com It 'still' won't work because we have to clean under our vehicles. When you put a spray washer to those oil soaked parts and now oil soaked sand or mud pack, the oil will wash out with it and make a really bad environmental mess in the driveway and out in the street where it drains every weekend. The government around here would freak on you and yes, the neighbors 'would' call to complain. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) They still "oil" cars up here in New Hampshire. By law they use a clean straight 30 weight non-detergent oil. There is getting to be fewer and fewer places that do oil undercoat. Gear oil was never used as it stinks to high heaven.  Signature222jeff >>> Unfortunately that oil treatment won't work for the OP or anyone who >>> off roads because we have to clean the undersides and frames to get [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) We cross water and bog a lot, no one would want to leave an oil slick behind them, they wouldn't be welcome long.... Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > They still "oil" cars up here in New Hampshire. By law they use a clean > straight 30 weight non-detergent oil. There is getting to be fewer and > fewer places that do oil undercoat. Gear oil was never used as it stinks > to high heaven. > I used to hear about "hot oil undercoating" when I lived in New England, > but > there isn't much call for it here in Colorado. I think they use something > thicker than gear oil, and heat it up, but the same principle applies. > Standard undercoating is a sound insulation product, not a rust-proofer. Earle, if you want to go to that extreme the simplest (and cheapest) way is to use roofing tar or roofing cement. That was an old-timer's trick in the the body shop trade in Texas. The tar contains enough distillates to penetrate surface/light rust and heating it lets it wick into crevasses. My two personal test cases: replaced the floor pans in an old Scout I bought up in Wisc. and coated all the seams with roofing tar. Drove the heap for 10 years and had to re-coat the exposed surfaces every 3-4 years as the tar sublimed but it stood the salt better than any of the near-by untreated surfaces. The acid test was a swamp cooler. The bottom was rusting through so I dried it out, put a coat of roofing tar on the bottom pan. Sealed the leaks and salvaged the cooler for another 12 years of service. Yeah, I'm cheap but that tar does a great job for me. Of course, that doesn't get into the mess factor of working with it - have lots of mineral spirits on hand! SignatureWill Honea Hmmm..... You know, I would highly recommend you find a local Jeep or 4x4 club and let someone there have a look. Then see who they recommend for a fix. What part of the world are you in? You really could just be describing the gas tank skid plate now as being rotted out. These are a 'wear' part that can be bought aftermarket and installed. They hold snow and water and rot out all the time. If you have a digital camera and want to go under to snap some shots you can post the photos over on alt.binaries.pictures.autos.4x4 or even email them to me and I can post them on my photo album site. My email is legit in this header. Mine on my CJ7 let go and I lost my gas tank on the trail, 250 miles from home, literally.... I ended up tossing the tank in the back and running a line into the hole I tore in it to get home, but meanwhile I can get another skid plate easily. I have one half made in the back for it, I will finish some day so my gas tank is currently just strapped in place with no skid plate on it. The rotted skid won't pass inspection, but the bare tank will... I want to wait for the new frame. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > I went down to the garage and picked the Jeep up today. I had a broken > driver's side door pull and had them price that, but when I heard about the [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > house and I think I'll get some more opinions before I try to locate a > replacement frame. I agree Mike. I think I'll find someone who has more experience in this area before I make any rach (expensive) decisions. > I have a bit more information...my mechanic says the main reason it won't > pass now is that the frame is rusted where the support for the gas tank is [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > 180,000 on the car. I've had it since it was 2 years old. Otherwise it runs > well, and most everything still works. I will also agree about going to a professional welding shop or even a trade school for frame repairs. The pros are usually better and cheaper than a mechanic for welding repairs. A few well placed patches have kept my frame going for an amazingly long time. Plus I don't really bash it off road anymore due to injuries from a car accident. Economically I don't see how it would pay to have a mechanic do all the labor on the swap. When I rebuilt my frame last century, I had a rolling chassis sitting there so I could take my time and put all the new lines and things on it. It is really not that hard to do when you have the old parts as a guide and no body in the way. I also stripped the old frame down and put a coat of that 'rust converter' stuff on it with a rubberized overcoat to slow down future rust. I will have to say it worked seeing as I am still driving her 7-8 years later. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) ... > Economically I don't see how it would pay to have a mechanic > do all the labor on the swap. When I rebuilt my frame last > century, I had a rolling chassis sitting there so I could take my > time and put all the new lines and things on it. It is really not > that hard to do when you have the old parts as a guide and no > body in the way. I agree. The donor frame is going to have bolts rusted, holes not drilled, welded brackets missing and fittings in a different location from what you need. That kind of stuff really eats up time. It sounds as if the mechanic this guy has is over his head, really. Earle >... >> Economically I don't see how it would pay to have a mechanic [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Earle The problem is the basic frame design. Jeep used a thin gauge high strength alloy frame and rust can take its toll on it and if you try to repair it you will speen a lot of time trying to piece it togehter and fine a strong place to weld too then if you do not do this right, the new material will create stress in a new area on metal that may be weaked by rust too. You could have some custom hat sections made up to restore weak areas but that would not be cheap either. Another thought is if you can find another frame you could use part of it to splits repair the existing frame and not have to replace complete frame. If it was mine and the rest of the frame was good I would try this method first I think. If I replaced the complete frame I would use a shortend P/U frame as I stated earlier because it is a lot stronger and would never rust out during the rest of its service life. If you just have a local welder weld in some odd pieces this will not likely create a good fix. Whithout seeing the actual damage it is hard to say for sure the best possible repair solution. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com >> ... >>> Economically I don't see how it would pay to have a mechanic [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > ----------------- > TheSnoMan.com Snoman, do you actually 'read' what you are replying to? You seem to cut out thread parts, then reply with complete nonsense to the parts you have cut out and pasted. This makes you look like an insane idiot sometimes. Sorry about the language, but man oh man.... Do you do this on purpose or do you have no clue how to trim a thread? From what I have read on several groups, you do this consistently. Maybe you should leave the thread snipping alone and just reply to the whole thing???? Either that or learn how to snip. On this post in particular you tossed the statement you 'appear to be' replying to and replied with total nonsense in the context of your snip. We are talking about replacing a rolling chassis in your snip, yet you are babbling on about rust??? Unless you enjoy the abuse, because you sure set yourself up for it. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > Unless you enjoy the abuse, because you sure set yourself up for it. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) Mike, You're wasting your time with Snojob. Spdloader >Do you do this on purpose or do you have no clue how to trim a thread? > From what I have read on several groups, you do this consistently. I know what you purpose is, to be a troll with a ego problem. You try to discredit anyone that you feel threatened by. Said part is knowledge is not a threat except to maybe someone to inmature as yourself to realize. You may think otherwise but you are still a green horn in a 4x4 world though you are a legend in your own mind. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com > >Do you do this on purpose or do you have no clue how to trim a thread? > > From what I have read on several groups, you do this consistently. > > I know what you purpose is, to be a troll with a ego problem. You try "your purpose", "a troll with an ego problem" > to discredit anyone that you feel threatened by. Said part is "sad part" > knowledge is not a threat except to maybe someone to inmature as "maybe to someone as immature as" > yourself to realize. You may think otherwise but you are still a green > horn in a 4x4 world though you are a legend in your own mind. When you flame in ungrammatical English, it just makes people laugh. Earle Horton http://xorton.blogspot.com > > >Do you do this on purpose or do you have no clue how to trim a thread? > > > From what I have read on several groups, you do this consistently. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > "maybe to someone as immature as" I've pointed out he was spelling "immature" wrong numerous times. He is beyond hope. > > yourself to realize. You may think otherwise but you are still a green > > horn in a 4x4 world though you are a legend in your own mind. Green horn? Boy that was beyond lame... In everyones mind you are a legendary idiot. Whats that say about you? > When you flame in ungrammatical English, it just makes people laugh. You can tell Snowads flustered when his grammer goes from sh*t to ape sh*t. > Earle Horton > http://xorton.blogspot.com Get the truth: SBJ: Dumb brake question http://tinyurl.com/2ya3wo SBJ: Snoball Defense System v1.01 http://tinyurl.com/2hth74 >> Do you do this on purpose or do you have no clue how to trim a thread? >> From what I have read on several groups, you do this consistently. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > ----------------- > TheSnoMan.com So you have chosen to flame rather than address the question. That does make you out to be the total insane idiot that posted he stops 'always' in the middle of the highway in a snowstorm to shift gears then??? I ask again, do you read what you reply to before posting? Like 'engage brain before hitting that 'send' button'. I am not trolling you, just replying to your continued insanity because you know 'just' enough to be dangerous when folks believe your BS. If someone actually believed it when you implied you haven't been killed in 35 years when always stopping on the highway in a snowstorm to change gears, they will die. I will continue to reply to any thread you reply to letting folks know just how 'off' you really are. Folks on this group have Bill and his bad meds days, we don't need another insane poster here. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) Mike, is that 'rust converter' a brand name or a description? Is it a paintable finish, or is it a semi-permanent finish? Merrill > I also stripped the old frame down and put a coat of that 'rust > converter' stuff on it with a rubberized overcoat to slow down future > rust. I will have to say it worked seeing as I am still driving her 7-8 > years later. > Mike, is that 'rust converter' a brand name or a description? Is it a > paintable finish, or is it a semi-permanent finish? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> rust. I will have to say it worked seeing as I am still driving her 7-8 >> years later. I will have to go look in the garage and I will be in there in the next few days to be sure what it's name is. I think it is 'rust converter'. It is a red colored product that is supposed to turn the rust to iron or steel or something like that. I bought it at Canadian Tire. It needs to be covered though, it is an undercoat. I also used an industrial cold galvanizing spray on all the washer spacers I used for the mounts to level the 'glass body with the stock mounts and none of them have rusted either. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) Red sounds like Naval Jelly http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1828700&cid= This is a gel with active ingredient phosphoric acid, pH 1. It reduces the rust to an alternate chemical form (another oxide?) that is physically more stable and can be painted. You can buy the phosphoric acid cheaper but the gel is easier to work with. When working with gel products, brush them on and cover with sheet plastic. This will let the gel work a lot longer before it dries out. This trick works great for paint remover too. Earle > > Mike, is that 'rust converter' a brand name or a description? Is it a > > paintable finish, or is it a semi-permanent finish? [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) No, this coats like undercoating. I have used Naval Jelly. Too bad they had to mess with the formula to make it 'safer' because it barely works now. Mike > Red sounds like Naval Jelly > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 >> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) Might be something like this stuff: http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=15974&itemType=PRODUCT&path=1%2C2%2C38 9%2C390&KickerID=347&KICKER or: http://tinyurl.com/yelepd I have also used POR-15 as a rust preventative, and it has survived 7 Michigan winters on my truck frame so far with no rust at all. Just wear gloves when you use the stuff, or it takes 2-3 weeks for it to wear off your skin. Chris > Red sounds like Naval Jelly > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 >> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) Thanks Mike, Earle, Chris I will check for the "rust converter" at CTC this weekend. I used something like that on my trailer hitch and painted it with Home Hardware Rust Coat. But it rusted through the paint in one winter. I guess I didn't get all the rust or else I used a similar product that wasn't as good. I still have some of the original formula Naval Jelly. The new stuff is poor in comparison. I wanted to try POR-15. I think I found it in the Eastwood catalogue, but I have no idea where to find it in Canada. There is a good selection of Krown products at Home Hardware. The only one I have used is the oil spray. Anybody have experience with their other products? I have 5 vehicles to work on so I can experiment. OT, somebody bumped my wife's car in a parking lot about a month ago. No body damage, but the other car must have been filthy because it left some nasty scratches on the plastic bumper. I was hoping to use rubbing compound to try to clean it up. I have an XJ that has some overspray touch-up paint on the plastic flares. Is there a product that will solve both of these problems? Somebody recently mentioned in another thread that a clay bar could work. Any recommendations? Please suggest something that is available in Canada if possible. Merrill |
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